Do atheists have a shot at heaven? (please read details.)

As a christian I believe I don’t have the right to make that decision because I am not God. We are not allowed to decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Only God will make that decision.

If they don’t want to let me into their party after I die because I refused to have a non-evidenced based belief in them, then I don’t want anything to do with them anyway.

I’d like to think so.

And I’d like to see someone prove me wrong.

I could never say that you won’t go to Heaven. Who am I to make such a cruel, obnoxious proclamation? In fact, if you did end up there I wouldn’t be a bit surprised. I’d be pleased, of course!

You aren’t deciding, just to clarify. If god does exist, then s/he will be the one to put me wherever I am going. I am simply asking for personal opinions. I know that Christians are not meant to judge who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. But you must have some opinions formed over years of following the Bible in just what sort of people are most likely to end up in the less appealing of the two destinations.

you say that you don’t follow the words of Jesus, but if you live your life properly(as i think you do) then she would have no choice but allow you into her kingdom.

Mark 3:29 – “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.”

I don’t think they want you if you didn’t convert before dying.

Not believing in Heaven is not wanting it enough. Perhaps you aren’t really that keen on spending eternity playing the harp with all those white haired codgers floating about. I know I amn’t. I wouldn’t worry about Hell either. You will know in your heart you are not going there.

@thekoukoureport yes, I wholeheartedly believe that I live a good life with love in my heart for the world (and those in it) around me, much as Jesus taught. I do so completely independent of religion, the Bible, faith, and spirituality. I believe that many others do the same.

@Aster thank you, sweet of you to say so. :) I’d be pretty pleased, myself.

@poisonedantidote One has to first believe that. Even then: been to heaven or hell lately? Know anyone who has?

@zen_ of course no one has proof, as I stated in my question. No one can know beyond a shadow of a doubt. However, many people do adhere very strictly to what is written in the Bible.. and make take things like that to heart. They have a right to do so.

Let me also say if I make it into heaven and I see a person who I knew who was an atheist in heaven with me I would be really happy. Like I said according to my beliefs God decides these matters not us. To all Christians on fluther. You all need to remember the old saying. “Judge not lest thee be judged yourself”. :)

@TheOnlyNeffie—They do have that right. Just keep it separate from State.

@Mikewlf337 I’m sure that most people would agree with you. I don’t think that most people want anyone to suffer eternal damnation. If that were the case, many Christians would not work so hard to get us nonbelievers to see and feel and believe what you do. I know it is a common misconception, but I do get that. I know that the intentions are good. (I said this in another thread.. the one that lead to this question. Just clarifying.)

@zen_ im just saying, scripture is quite clear on the matter of atheists going to heaven. personally, im an atheist, a hard atheist, so dont expect me to defend the bible. but if you look in to it, they are quite clear on atheists.

I’m inclined to jump on board with @poisonedantidote in that I am pretty confident the Bible does not have room for atheists. My question is essentially in the opinions of Christians, how they feel as individuals.
If they believe that I may go to heaven regardless of my absence of faith, then why try to convert me at all? That isn’t the ultimate question here, but it does make me curious.

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 3:18

”...whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

It seems to me that in order to come to the father in Heaven, you must accept Jesus Christ as your savior. An atheist does not do that, thus they cannot come to the father; they cannot go to Heaven.

@wesdavis I ask this question with the understanding that the (majority of the) people who are answering do believe in god and in heaven and in hell.
I have made it clear that I do not, but the truth is that no one knows for sure. So it is asked with a hopefully mutual understanding.

It seems that the only Christians who’ve responded have said, “Why not?”

The atheists seem to be taking a literal interpretation of the bible and not listening to how Christians are interpreting it.

I, for one, exhibit no surprise.

Of course, I wait for @Nullo’s response….

@wesdavis dont you mean Kahless and Fek-Lar?

My God loves everybody – including those who don’t believe in him.

@DominicX oh, I do know that. Again, I’m positive that the Bible does not leave room for nonbelievers. I also know that many people that identify as Christian do not necessarily follow everything in the Bible.
I can say (and have said) from personal experience that many Christians will look me right in the eye and tell me that I am going to hell. It has happened more times than I can count. Most often said with pity or apologetically. A plea to come to the other side. However, I also recognize that most people are good at heart, and they certainly don’t want other good people to go to hell. So I’m really only asking for opinions.
I absolutely agree with you, though. According to the Bible.. I’m going to hell.

@TheOnlyNeffie “If they believe that I may go to heaven regardless of my absence of faith, then why try to convert me at all?” Great question. Depends on the person. Some do it because Jesus implied we should. Others do it so that , if you DO convert, they may feel more support for their own beliefs which may be shaky?
I don’t think I’ve ever knowingly tried to convert anybody but maybe I should. I just don’t know, really.

The standard for getting in to Heaven by your own merit is perfect sinlessness. We’re not very good at that.

Salvation is not a function of how ‘good’ you are, but where your spiritual allegiance lies (that said, your allegiance is supposed to reflect in your character). Hitler, for all we know, might be saved. Mother Teresa might not.

@zen_ John 3:14–16 puts it thusly: “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

@TheOnlyNeffie

And that is why Christians have such missionary tendencies. They don’t want people to go to Hell. While many Christians may seem like they get pleasure out of condemning people and telling them they will go to Hell, most Christians (or a “true Christian”, an extremely loaded term) want to prevent people from going to Hell and spread the word so that a non-believer can come to believe and come to be saved.

@Nullo is right. Salvation is not a function of how “good” you are, but good character tends to be reflected in you if you do accept Jesus as your savior.

A bit off topic, sorry, but I just wondered what all these bible thumpers who spend their lives trying to convert people do when they get to Heaven.

@Aster I’m pretty certain that fundamentally many (if not most) Christians feel it is their duty to convert nonbelievers and effectively do their part to bring the sheep back to the herd, not everyone actively does so. The ones that don’t make me a very happy atheist, I’ll tell you the truth. ;)
I assumed there would be a relatively broad spectrum of answers here, as there is a broad spectrum of beliefs that fall into the category of Christianity.
Some are far more literal than others.

@DominicX absolutely, yes. I really want to stress that I do see the good intentions behind the desire to convert people, behind missions, behind spreading the word. I believe that most people are inherently good, period.

It can become a very ugly, blurred line at times when those specific good intentions are unwelcome.

@Nullo I am not without “sin.” I’ll be the first to admit it. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint.

@DominicX “While many Christians may seem like they get pleasure out of condemning people and telling them they will go to Hell…” Where are all these terrible people? I keep reading about them but I’ve never once heard one person tell anyone ‘you are going to Hell.’ I did have a friend whose minister announced that to her in a church service, though. Teeny tiny Texas town Just dreadful.

@Aster

I haven’t met any either, but I was raised Catholic in a relatively liberal area. All these “hellfire sermons” that I hear about I never experienced. But I have heard about them and I do remember reading testimony from people on Fluther who have been told to their face that they will go to Hell by a self-proclaimed Christian. I personally have never had that experience.

@Aster they are out there. Plenty of them. I suppose the picture may be clearer when you’re standing on the other side. I have had people ranging from total strangers, to dear loved ones, tell me to my face that I was going to hell.

Again, most of the time it is said with pity. Or as a warning, even. Please change your ways, or you will go to hell. Every now and then there are people who skip all of that and just go right to the judgment. It really does happen.

@TheOnlyNeffie Those people are stirring up hatred and don’t even know it. And the “sadness” I wouldn’t trust as being real sadness unless they were truly worried relatives.

@Aster I really don’t take it too personally. Again, I understand why they might feel that way. A better word to describe my feelings about an approach like “you’re going to hell” is annoyance or frustration.

@TheOnlyNeffie shudder

@Aster It’s an older evangelical style that puts undue emphasis on the ‘burn’ part of ‘turn or burn.’ The idea is to encourage conversion by effectively threatening people with Hell. It is less than half of the Gospel, and it tends to produce a lot of Sunday Christians.

Sung to the tune of “Frère Jacques” – this one’s always a big hit with the Sunday School crowd.

Reh-vuh-lay-shun
Reh-vuh-lay-shun
Twenty-one, eight
Twenty-one, eight
Unbelievers go to hell
Unbelievers go to hell
Burn burn burn!
Burn burn burn!

(continue with Liars, Idolators, Whoremongers, etc.)

I once heard it put thusly: God wants to give you what you want. If you want an eternity apart from Him (one of the defining characteristics of Hell – again, used as a conceptual placeholder, since Hell is more of a staging area – is that it’s wholly cut off from God), He’ll oblige.
I don’t quite buy it, but I like how it emphasizes God’s role as a situational modifier.

Greek Orthodoxy teaches that Hell is how the unsaved would perceive Heaven.
I don’t buy this one at all.

According to the Mormon faith:

What about non-Mormons? “Those who choose not to follow our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ will receive a reward according to what they have done in this life, but they will not enjoy the glory of living in the presence of God.”

Mormons do believe in hell. Those who did not repent while on Earth will experience a temporary hell after death (during the time that all spirits go to the spirit world before the Resurrection), but will have an opportunity to repent afterwards and avoid the eternal hell. Hell as an eternal place of misery it is inhabited only by Satan and those who explicitly reject “the Heavenly Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost” even after the period of instruction after death. Source

Heeey, I think the mormons are on to something. Now we’re talking. I like it.

I will begin by saying again that, while I am a theist, I am not Christian. I believe that everyone, regardless of their acceptance of Mohammad, Jesus, or Bahá‘u’lláh as manifestations of God, goes to heaven. Here is a description better then any I am capable of writing that provides for me, the most rational explanation of the afterlife, how it works, and why I believe that everyone goes to heaven.

@iamthemob It’s like you purposely enjoy venerating the religious as if they’ve got something you don’t. I read this thread and as an atheist was utterly uninterested one way or another. I don’t interpret the Bible in any way and I am not at all surprised at the ‘nice’ responses here, plenty of people (religious or not) won’t go around assuming they know who’s getting into heaven and who isn’t. I think you’re not hearing many of the atheists on this thread because they weren’t specifically asked to share, understandably.

@SuperMouse thanks for sharing that.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I didn’t think they had to be “asked” or invited to post but maybe your fellow Atheists will be here later on to join you? I , for one, welcome their (and your) input.

And for my serious answer -

If “heaven” is as the Bible describes it as streets of gold, mansions, constant light, and angels and disembodied souls all over the place singing praises to the Abrahamic god every moment for all of eternity, I’ll downgrade to Coach and be anywhere else.

@Aster well, the question was specifically directed at jellies that consider themselves to be Christians. I figured everyone would chime in, but I really didn’t want it to turn into a slam fest. @Simone_De_Beauvoir and any other person of any religious or spiritual (or non) background is welcome to contribute… but not believing in heaven at all doesn’t really answer my question.

@Seek_Kolinahr I genuinely feel the same way.

@Seek_Kolinahr Oh, pooey. Those guys were just shooting in the dark . LOL ! Guessing. You believed them? I’m sorry; I just can’t.

No, and neither does anyone else. But have a nice day anyway.

@Seek_Kolinahr Sorry to hear that. :\
I feel that I ought to clarify, though: there’s more than just Heaven. Over the years the concept of life after death has been whittled down to a single portion – the New Jerusalem. There will be considerably more than just that.

I don’t believe we have the right to make that decision… We aren’t God.

Personally, I don’t “think” my God would send children, who cannot understand the concept of a God until a certain age, to hell. What about babies that die during or after birth? What about people who have never been told about God?

There are too many “what ifs” and I have no business condemning someone for there beliefs anyway. If you are asking for a clear cut answer I’m afraid I could not give you one because I don’t know all the answers.

@Loried2008 not to make light of your answer, because I very much appreciate your contribution… I was always under the impression that unbaptized children and infants were sent to “limbo” or a lower level of heaven… not to hell.

Please, someone correct me if I am mistaken.

@TheOnlyNeffie No problem :) I think that’s the Mormon belief or something (I’m not certain I don’t know a lot about Mormon’s) I’m a Christian (simply I believe God is my creator, Jesus is his son, and he died for my sins) I have no “denomination” and I do not involve myself in the little details. I don’t know what else I could be besides a Christian. I just left it as Hell and Heaven in my mind.

@Loried2008 The Mormon church teaches that all babies , obviously never exposed to ‘the Gospel’ go to Heaven. All those who have never heard about the Gospel will go . It is a very clear LDS teaching. They also teach that “God will take “it” into consideration” whatever “it” may mean.

@TheOnlyNeffie I was taught that most Christians believe that once a person learns that Jesus Christ is God’s only son that, unless they accept Him as their personal savior, they are toast (literally if you believe the fire and brimstone version of hell). It is also my understanding that some Christians believe that anyone who even just says “I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior” is saved – whether they mean it or not.

@SuperMouse Well, that is kind of convenient….

Of course I know what the Bible literally says, and I know that people will take from the Bible what is most meaningful to them, and that opinion and belief will vary. Again, I’m not surprised that people would at least hope that the not half bad non-believers in their lives will make it to heaven. I just couldn’t help but wonder where people would personally draw the line between what they want and hope for and what they believe within their own faith.

Christ speaking to one of the thieves on the cross:
“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”- Luke 23:43

I think that there are several “places” that individuals reside after this earth.
In Corinthians, Paul references a man being “caught up to the third Heaven.”

i don’t believe in a hell as it’s commonly perceived. I think that it is just a place where we would be without some of the greater opportunities afforded to those who chose differently. Not a bad place, not a place of torment or suffering. I think that the only torment might be what we feel if we are disappointed in ourselves and wish we had made other choices, because we stunted our progress.

I believe that eventually most all of us will figure out that it’s a good idea to seriously entertain the ideas that Christ taught, and that does not exclude atheists. I think that many atheists are very honorable people and will be quick to embrace these principles at some point, but whether or not they do, they are not going to the proverbial “Hell”.

@SuperMouse Romans 10:9–10 states, “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”
You can splice Ephesians 2:8–9 onto the end of that: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

The Mormon church teaches there are 3 “heavens” , one is a word that doesn’t even exist: the Celestial Kingdom, The Terrestrial Kingdom and the Telestial Kingdom. The only one of the 3 heavens that will give you your own planet that you will rule over, as a God or Goddess, is the Celestial. This is the one that all Mormons strive to go to. Joseph Smith, their founder and prophet, got this idea from the Bible verse that states, more or less, “and he was caught up into the THIRD HEAVEN.” Joseph was always doing stuff like this. /-:

@Aster Thank you I didn’t know that

Firstly, let me say that hell is NOT a christian teaching. It is an invention of the Roman Catholic church that many protestants have followed along like sheep and accepted. So, no, you will not go to hell, and neither will anyone else.

Will atheists go to heaven? I would like to think that anyone who has honestly sought after truth, and their honest searching has led them to the point where they do not believe in God, will be rewarded with what they deserve for wanting to know truth. I believe that God judges on motives, not outcomes. Am I right? I don’t know. Perhaps my viewpoint is coloured by the fact that I refuse to believe that my atheist son is lost. However, I am confident in the fact that God will decide what is best, and am happy to let Him do that. He’s smarter than me…...

@Harold lovely answer, very touching. Thank you.

@Harold For not being a Christian teaching, the concept crops up an awful lot in the Bible. :\

This is sort of like asking if nonbelievers in Santa Claus have a shot at getting their stockings filled.

Seeing that stockings are filled by someone other than Santa Claus (who doesn’t exist), there’s no connection. Santa Claus does not make the rules about who gets a filled stocking and who doesn’t.

Wait. Never mind. This is actually more like asking if nonbelievers in Social Security will still get their checks. The answer is, whatever rules there are about who gets Social Security payouts, they don’t depend on a person’s political sentiments. You can still benefit from the system even if you’ve badmouthed it all your life. I have yet to hear about people who’ve turned it down on principle.

So if there is a heaven and you’re eligible, you’ll go. If there isn’t or you’re not, you won’t. If we don’t know what the rules are, we don’t know whether belief is a factor or not. And I don’t believe any of us knows what the rules are for admission to something that’s not real.

I personally don’t think there’s any such thing as heaven.

@Jeruba of course no one knows for sure. That is why I specifically asked for opinions in the details. I wanted a gauge of what people felt personally, not necessarily whether I will or will not go to heaven. I don’t think there is any such thing, either. It was more a question of the personal opinions of people that identify themselves as Christian.

Yes, but only if you don’t go over the allowed number of sin points. How many can you accumulate before eternal torture kicks in? Send me $50 and I’ll tell you.

I’ll answer cock’s proposition for you Neffie. According to the Bible the human race has slowly been increasing in rebellion to God’s plan for us as representations of the big guy himself. That said, the first time we sin in this life, that is, do something contrary to what God designed us for, we are in rebellion against him for not respecting him properly and following his word. Of course, that raises a rather contradictory ultimatum: no one is perfect because we have all sinned somewhere along the line, and that would mean none of us have a shot at heaven whatsoever. But according to the good book God got kind of got sick of all the stupid religious crap and decided to give us the door to eternal salvation through love and not laws. The answer God came up with, was Jesus, and his perfect human sacrifice to overturn all we have done wrong.

That is the Biblical perspective at least. So if you can’t believe in God, believe in Jesus and in his resurrection; I can’t say I know exactly what will happen, never having died before, but would bet God’ll “take a second glance” as they put it.

Hope that helps.

@ChaosCross—I prefer ‘swain

@ChaosCross I mean, I can’t just believe in Jesus and the resurrection any more than I can just believe in God. I do appreciate your input, though. I find it really fascinating to hear so many variations in this thread. Glad I asked.

According to The Bible, it’s very unlikely. But then according to The Bible you’re barely allowed to go to the bathroom.

I am not even sure if I believe in Hell. I ran across a few webpages the other day at the library talking about how the concept of Hell was picked up by Christians in the 3rd century from pagan myths. (Sadly, I am unable to find these pages again!! >0 ). So, if what I read was true, then no, no one goes to Hell.

But even if there is a Hell out there, I personally don’t believe anyone would be sent there. If God loves us so much as He claims then why would he send anyone to Hell?
However, my God doesn’t send anyone to Hell.
(I’ve been confused a lot with religion lately…especially Christianity. So I am sorry if I seem a bit ‘flip-floppy’).

Really? Oh where do I start? John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever BELIEVES in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.” 6:40 “For my Father’s will is that everone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day”. I could go on, but athiest don’t believe so they have no shot. But then again they don’t worry because they know that everything just stops when they die and they just fade away to the great white zephrum, no afterlife.

@Nullo – the hell spoken of in the bible is either the grave, or a fire that burns until its job is done.
@amazingme – you are correct. God would not do that.

Hey everyone I’ll bring the marshmallows on the last day! Anyone have a guitar? nothing like some music when your burning in the hellfire.

Hell is such a fascinating subject, With the human condition and the way that we can adapt to various pain thresholds, How long before the ripping my skin off part becomes boring?

If you live your life right, do not judge, you have a perfect opportunity to close your eyes and sleep peacefully at night, without regrets. That’s heaven.

@Loried2008 From Wikipedia:
Joseph Smith, the original founder of the LDS church, discussed the potential of mankind by referencing Romans 8:17 Bible, King James, then stating that men may go: ”...from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation… until (they) arrive at the station of a God.” (TPJS, p. 346–47) “TPJS” means The Prophecies of Joseph Smith.
Smith taught, “You have got to learn to become Gods yourselves, the same as all Gods before you have done.” This belief, unknown to many Christians, is actually in the Christian Bible as cited above.

”....is actually in the Christian Bible as cited above.” But it wasn’t cited; sorry.

@Hypocrisy_Central you’re right that I am not afraid of hell because I don’t believe that it exists. That wasn’t the point of this question, at all. I’m well aware that many people that consider themselves to be Christian take different interpretations of the Bible. Even different translations of the Bible, for that matter. I also know that many people that identify as Christian do not take all of the Bible literally. So although Christians are not supposed to judge who will go to heaven or who will go to hell, I have to assume that people will form their own opinions on what they believe will happen to certain people when they die.
Also, just for the record… I am an atheist, and I don’t necessarily believe that everything just “stops” when we die. Although many atheists do believe that there is absolutely nothing after death, there is no dogma in atheism. The only universal belief in atheism is that god does not exist.

@TheOnlyNeffie

Is that universal belief even true? From what I understand, weak atheism includes versions of agnosticism – therefore, doesn’t the definition of atheism include a generally disorganized belief in god?

No, @iamthemob

The etymology of “atheism” means “without god”.

“Weak atheism” and “Strong atheism”, as well as “implicit atheism” and Explicit atheism” are terms coined in 1979 by George H. Smith.

I disagree with his definition of those categories. One can eschew belief in a deity without being a “fundamentalist” – that is, rejecting claims based on empirical evidence.

Smith does not hold a category for those who claim “there is one god” is a false statement, unless one has proof to the contrary.

Richard Dawkins has a good term: “de facto atheist” – meaning, “I am atheist because I have no reason to believe at least one god exists”.

I was typing, but I’ll just stop now. @Seek_Kolinahr already posted much of what I was going to say.

Agnosticism comes into the equation out of necessity. Atheism is a denial or disbelief in the existence of a god. Period.

The etymology of a word isn’t the definition. Please note that when I assumed that about atheism at an earlier time, I was corrected and pointed to the weak/strong dichotomy.

So if there are a multiplicity of definitions, I’m confused. @TheOnlyNeffie seems to contradict @Seek_Kolinahr, and stating “Atheism is a denial or disbelief in the existence of a god. Period” is different than the universal belief “god does not exist.”

I’m honestly asking. If we’re going to work with the etymological definition, then it seems like atheism is best described as an approach rather than a belief. It is the analysis of religion or issues previously considered the purvey of religion “without god.” Therefore, a skeptical approach to god, put another way. This would also limit the confusion that seems to result when one talks about “atheists” – something that seems to cause issues because atheists that I’ve spoken to reject being referred to as a group as there’s no real way to commonly define them.

And if this is the case – a skeptical approach to god – then it doesn’t seem like there’s any reason why atheists wouldn’t have a shot at heaven. Living a good life seems to be the general prerequisite among religions. Personal morality would dictate one do this anyway, ideally. Therefore, living a good life as an atheist would simply mean critical analysis of the institutions and facts of people claiming an absolute answer, and determining the validity of the institutions and facts in your life to assist in your attempt to live it well.

If there’s an afterlife to which access is dictated by actions during our lives, I feel like atheists have a great shot at heaven. The good ones, that is. ;-)

That could be directly related to the simple fact that I am not the brightest crayon in the box. I don’t see a difference between denying or disbelieving that god exists and believing that god does not exist.

@TheOnlyNeffie Also, just for the record… I am an atheist, and I don’t necessarily believe that everything just “stops” when we die. Where would the soul go after one is dead if there was no afterlife attached to God? Wherever this place is would people the likes of Caligula, Pol pot, Hitler, Vlad the Impaler, etc. would be there as well? If not, who or what would decide they were excluded and on what grounds? The lesson would be do as much dirt and cause as much suffering while you are here because it won’t mean a thing anyhow once you are dead.

@Hypocrisy_Central why do souls or the afterlife.. or anything like, have to be attached to god at all?
I never said that I believe in souls, either. I do believe, however, that I am made of energy and matter and those things will not cease to exist after I am dead. I don’t feel that they have to leave this earth, or travel to another plane of existence, or go to heaven or hell or anything of that nature. I don’t view it as positive or negative, or reward or punishment.. so, yes the same thing would most likely happen to Caligula and Pol Pot. I don’t think I will be consciously aware of an afterlife. I do not think there will be consequences (or hell to pay) for my deeds in this life after it is over. I’m surely not running around burning down churches or maiming puppies or any other selfish, destructive behaviors as a result. If you’re insinuating that morals can not exist without a belief in a punishment/reward sort of afterlife.. I don’t think you’re giving people enough credit.

@Hypocrisy_Central

Indeed. There’s no necessary prerequisite of a deity for there to be an afterlife of some sort. Although it’s a crude analogy, it can be compared to birth. We don’t need a deity to explain why children are born, and there is no apparent prerequisite to decide who gets to be born and who doesn’t. We are not conscious, for the most part, of the period closely following our birth…so it very well may be something that we transition into, and have to learn how to perceive and make sense of (considering that we haven’t any clear evidence of a perceived force leaving a body at death, it makes sense that if there is anything afterward it would be an existence not yet perceivable). But because we don’t know what follows, we don’t know if anything follows. This is all we have. I think that it’s as reasonable to believe that, knowing this, people would be just as likely to treasure life all the more as they would to “do as much dirt” before they go. Of course, there will more than likely always be assholes – but religious pronouncements regarding punishment after death haven’t stopped them so far.

@ChaosCross In fact, God announced His plan to send Jesus waaaaaaaay back in Genesis 3. The bit with the Old Covenant was to lay the groundwork.

If you live a good life then you have no worries at all. Anyone that merits a good existence in the next life will not be denied that existence. Those that don’t merit it will have to try again until they get it. There is no one above the other because we all have the potential of becoming what we are striving for. If you want to really know what the Mormons think ask away I was one for many years and know exactly what they teach. In time we should out grow religion and find the answers that are there for everyone.

What I have heard so far about Mormons is only partially true but put in a different way than they teach and believe.

If Christians are truly the only ones that go to heaven, why would the rest of us want to go there? They describe it as an eternity of praising god, sounds like hell to me and it makes oblivion sound pretty good.

Sigh…an intellectually shallow pot shot at Christians…I always feel like they develop the discussion so…:-)

@iamthemob they make Fluther go ‘round. ;)

@TheOnlyNeffie Apparent-ly, right?

According to fundamental literalists the short answer to your question would be no. Works without faith are dead because even our greatest deeds do not make up for sin. It is all about faith more than works according to the fundies. However not all Christian denominations teach hell or faith over works (especially the more liberal ones). This question is very difficult to answer for me at least from a Christian standpoint.

I happen to be a nonreligious theist who believes in an afterlife of some type with multiple dimensions. According to my own beliefs atheists have just as much access to the better spiritual planes as anyone else. It is all about your actions and motivations when you were alive not your religious faith.

Ironically it seems by default many atheists, including both the former religious ones and nonreligious ones always seem to refer to the fundamentalist Christian heaven/afterlife as the only option rather than other types of belief systems which actually contradict these teachings.

^ Just throwing it out there, it’s ”Faith without works is dead, being alone” James 2:20.

Not that I disagree with your sentiment, that was just the wrong scripture to reference.

@Seek_Kolinahr I was fully aware, I do not always feel like directly quoting scripture. Works without faith is dead was more of my own direct statement. Thanks anyway.

@Paradox I think maybe Eph 2:8&9 convays your point a little better. ;-)

@Paradox I’ve developed the impression that most Atheists out there are rather particularly anti-Christian. I take it as reinforcement of the truth of my beliefs – it is written that Christians are as the stench of death to such people – but another possibility because that’s pretty much the default religion in the West, and so to save time, they generalize.

There seems to be an interesting paradox here. I am also a member of a Christian Q & A site similar to this one and they do not seem to care too much for my own religious (or should I say) spiritual beliefs. They do not like that I believe evolution is a fact not a theory. They also are not too fond of my beliefs in ghosts not being demons, reincarnation of certain souls and making it to heaven through doing good to others, not through faith in Jesus. This is true of most religious people’s opinions of my own beliefs where I live as well.

On the other hand many (not all) atheists claim they hate religion that is narrow-minded and opposes gay rights, women’s rights and all that other yadda yadda while preaching eternal hellfire, fundamentalist religious people being aggressive with their views but at the same time many atheists seem to do the same. To even mention the word “spirit” gets you a whole host of them jumping on you yelling “prove it, prove it”! This is true with many atheists even if you’re just a spiritual person and not religious. Dam I don’t even preach my religious beliefs upon anyone.

I guess this is why I get along much better with agnostics, deists and liberal theists over atheists or religionists. What a neat little paradox that middle-of-the-road theistic dualists such as myself get snuffed aside from both cynical atheists and cynical religionists. I don’t expect a large fan base on Fluther considering my nonpartisan political views and nonreligious theism.

@Paradox They also are not too fond of my beliefs in ghosts not being demons, reincarnation of certain souls and making it to heaven through doing good to others, not through faith in Jesus. Seemingly learning something new about atheist each week I hang around Fluther, if you are an atheist and do not believe there is anything once your hearts stops and your brain goes dead, how can there be ghost? If there are ghost what are they associated with what if not the soul of the departed? How can it be a life not moved on or something like that if there is no life past death? And who or what would decide who gets reincarnated or the chance to live again? Does it happen right away, the moment one person dies his/her spirit goes directly into someone born that moment? Could you please elucidate?

@Hypocrisy_Central That statement you highlighted already answers itself. I’m going by my own personal experiences with religionists (as I call them). I already explained everything I’m not sure what you are asking. Anyone that knows anything about the more conservative Christian denominations knows full well that these beliefs hold on to the fact that you either have soul sleep until Judgement Day or it is directly off to heaven or hell. Ghosts to conservative denominations are really demons in disguise as your loved ones. I’m not sure what you are asking here that I didn’t explain. What makes you think I’m an atheist? I’m far from being an atheist. I’m just not a religionist.

I keep trying to make a point that not all theists are religionists but it seems no one is getting it on here.

@Paradox I understand the difference between spirituality and religion.

I feel like the conversation is veering way off topic…

I know you say you are not a believer and I don’t think you have to be.
Example: Saul on the road to Damascus.
God has infinite power and knowledge and will save you if you are among His chosen.

@palerider Saul probably had some bad mushrooms or moldy rye bread or an epileptic seizure to have the visons described in the bible. It’s is a common vision of the above scenerios.

***God has infinite power and knowledge and will save you if you are among His chosen

So god chooses you? I thought it was the other way around?

@thekoukoureport It depends on which brand of Christianity you follow. As for my own, yes, I believe He chooses you. He decided which were His before the foundation of the world. If not, Saul would have never chosen Him. Also, there was no need for the dismissal/belittling because of your alternate belief.

@palerider I am just espousing theories that were put out by professionals much smarter than I. As for god choosing you…. How do you know he chose you?

I was taught that if a person is a good person that they can live in heaven so long as they have (good) believers who pray for them and ask God to have mercy on that persons soul.
The way Jesus asked his God to forgive the sinners who have sinned against him because they did not know the sin they were committing.
It was after all the reason Jesus was sent. To forgive sinners so they can enter the gates of heaven.

@Harold, I was raised Catholic. If you asked a Catholic, they would they would say that they were the original Catholics. Some, I would imagine, would say that they are the only Christians.

Well you asked for different perspectives, so how about Taoist… requiring us to redefine traditional concepts of Heaven and Hell. As the story is told…

The Warrior approached the Monk and asked,
“Great Master, will you teach me the secrets of Heaven and Hell?”

The Monk looked up and smiled,
“A worthless dog such as yourself could never hope to understand such concepts”.

The Warrior, enraged, drew his sword to the Monks neck,
“Prepare to die Monk, for your insults will not be tolerated”.

The Monk looked up and smiled,
“Now, you are in Hell”.

The Warrior, realizing his offense, dropped his sword and fell to his knees,
“Forgive me Master, for I have sinned against you”.

The Monk smiled and said,
“Now, you are in Heaven”.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Thank you I have not heard that before. Is that from a particular book or is it an oral tradition.

It’s one of the many wisdoms heard on the greatest audio book all time…

Confucius in the Boardroom

the best human being that they are capable of being

The best human being that you or I can be still does not get a ticket to Heaven. That ain’t the way it works.

Yes.

“Heaven” being a state of mind and a tool to control the weak.

God snapped his “fingers” putting the universe into motion and all that it will do.

IE Your actions are the actions God put into motion.

the truth shall set you free

Read

@plethora

Which? Why?

Otherwise…no.

Allow me @plethora.

Which?... All.

Why?... C.S. Lewis.

Other-Wise…? Yes! Of course.

I do love me some C..S. Lewis. “Mere Christianity” is on my nightstand now.

Just a suggestion….not an order

@plethora – but what do the books say? And what’s the reasoning?

@iamthemob I suggested reading if you wish. It’s an allegory. He speaks much more eloquently than I.

He’s just another fool babbling on about something trivial. Nothing to see here really.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Thank you. That very clearly defines your posture on this issue…and also makes you that dreaded word….an extremist.

Make that sarcastic extremist, if you don’t mind thank you very much.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies – no, I think that it makes you an extremist sarcastic.

An extrarcastic?

I’d just say you’re a little “extra.”

Sweet holy moly, the way I see it as interpret by the Bible, belief constitute faith, if you do not belief why would you have faith that there is even a heaven to obtain after death? Not the Bible says John 3:16,17, & 18 ”For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17: For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” By the Bible and not by me, if you do not believe it matters not how well you lived your life you do not have grace. The Blood of Jesus has not paid for your sin. And those who die in sin cannot see heaven.

Then again, if you don’t believe then why even worry if there is a heaven to get to where they will do what you don’t believe anyhow?