How many of the newly elected Republican members of Congress are part of an ultra-conservative movement such as the Tea Party?

Rand Paul – Teabagger (shudder)

Well, if he’s the only one I’m not worried. The moderate conservatives will keep the tea baggers in check.

In some districts, votes are still being tallied. For example, in Alaska, the most votes for Senator went to write-in candidates, so those all have to be checked to see which write-in wins. In other words, we don’t know the answer to your question yet.

I know in my area, some crazy folks won, but the dust is still settling.

Thanks. Keep me posted.

A lot of European politicians, even conservatives, are worried about the influence of the Tea Party movement.

@mattbrowne You have yet again stooped to the level of name calling. Shame on you and others. If you don’t like these peoples politics that is fine but it is attitudes like yours that have gotten them elected. No need for name calling.

@missingbite: I can’t even tell if you’re joking.

Unfortunately, there aren’t a lot of Republicans that qualify as Moderates.
Most of the Teabaggers are so transparent, you don’t need to worry about them. Attention starved and one note. It’s not like the electorate has gone so crazy we elected another Bush.

We wake this morning with proof that democracy in the U.S. has been sold to our corporate owners. The elections prove that any lie, told frequently, will be accepted by an increasingly undereducated electorate.

The fact is that any monies granted to corporations are considered sacred and any money spent to improve the health, security, and freedom for ordinary citizens is considered a waste. It also means that the Supreme court will never be impeached for constitutional crimes, international corporations will have more control over the American people, and that we will continue in a state of perpetual war while our civilian economy shrinks to levels worse than in the beginning of the 20th century. I am glad that I am old because I won’t have to witness the total decline of the country I love.

Marco Rubio (senate) is also a Tea Party candidate that won, as well as Sandy Adams (house) and Steve Southerland (house).

Also, Morgan Griffith (house), Pat Toomey (senate), Nikki Haley (SC Governor) were supported and/or endorsed by the Tea Party.

@Seaofclouds don’t forget Rand Paul in Kentucky. Now we can expect further proposals to free corporations of regulations while there are increase proposals to control our personal lives. I expect the next move will be to abolish abortion completely, increase penalties for drug offenses, and teaching creationism in public schools.

Afterall what use is freedom and education if you don’t have God on your side?

@Ron_C

Actually, in CA we did pretty darn well- most of the news is good and the “corporate candidates” and “corporate bills” lost big.

@Ron_C I didn’t mention him since he was already mentioned. I really, really hope they stay away from abortion and leave it alone. I think they would have a hard time abolishing abortion, but I know that is on some of their agendas. :(

@crisw California was one of the few bright spots. I live in Pa and there was a clean sweep for the Republican/Tea Party candidates. We even elected a corporate lobbyist for Governor. As you can guess, I am pretty depressed. Congratulations for your success even though you failed to legalize MJ use for fun.

@Seaofclouds I guess that I hadn’t read the thread close enough. The abortion issue is being attacked on the State level. It is likely that there will soon be a state that will insist that a woman give birth even in the case of incest or rape. That means that any degenerate that decides he wants a kid can force any woman he wants to have it. I am disgusted that a woman’s control over her body is even discussed. It should be a given that the individual has the right to decide what medical assistance he or she will accept. I expect to decide when I will not accept medical treatment to prolong my life and a woman should have complete control over her medical decisions.

Perceiving certain views as extreme or radical is not name calling.

I did not write that supporters of the Tea Party movement are complete and total idiots.

@mattbrowne You responded in your question to a poster the following. “Well, if he’s the only one I’m not worried. The moderate conservatives will keep the tea baggers in check.”

I guess you are not using the term “tea bagger” in a derogatory way. If that is the case, I apologize. If you, like most people do, are using that term as a way do denigrate a large portion of the population who are Conservatives, then shame on you.

@missingbite – I thought tea baggers and Tea Party movement are synonyms, aren’t they?

@BarnacleBill referred to the term I used in my question this way.

I’m under the impression that the majority of American conservatives are not ultra conservatives, but when looking at @filmfann‘s comment, perhaps we need to discuss this:

http://www.fluther.com/102778/how-many-american-conservatives-belong-to-the-group-of-ultra-conservatives/

@mattbrowne

“Tea baggers” also has a lewd connotation in the US!

@crisw – Why did @BarnacleBill use it?

@mattbrowne

Dunno- probably because he doesn’t like the guy! I just wasn’t sure if you were aware of the randier connotations of the phrase.

@crisw – Not really, but I read most of this article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement

and it says

“The term teabagger emerged after a protester displayed a placard using the words ‘tea bag’ as a verb. The label has prompted additional puns by commentators, the protesters themselves, and comedians based on the sexual meaning of the term.”

I won’t use the term anymore.

@mattbrowne

I figured you weren’t trying to cast the aspersions that missingbite was implying you were!

Not congressional, but a Tea Party candidate won the Maine governor’s race.

@mattbrowne My apologies to you. 99.9% of the time someone used the term tea baggers they are making reference to a lewd act. Just like the way Janeane Garofalo did and many of our so called “moderate” liberals seem to do. I simply don’t like name calling on either side and feel like we could cover much more ground if people debated and not resorted to acting like they were in 3rd grade.

@mattbrowne What are some of the European concerns regarding the Tea Party?

Here y’go, @mattbrowne – Read ‘em and weep. I am.

@laureth I wonder if even Fox News is happy to hear that. The most powerful nation on earth, and this is where a large segment of our country would like to be from a social standpoint.

So if they do some crazy conservative stuff, I’m sure they’ll get voted out again like in 2006 and 2008. And the cycle will repeat itself as the “other” party figures out what Americans would like to hear and then just says it. Our collective short-term memory won’t recall anything beyond two years.

@crisw- What term do you suggest? Tea Partiers?

The American politcal system is a system and functions because it perpetuates its own survival. My biggest concern is that people like Rand Paul are short term thinkers and don’t grasp long term impacts of what they’re saying. People who go rogue in Congress become impediments to things getting done. Mitch McConnell had his hands full with Jim Bunning; that’s going to seem like a cakewalk compared to Rand Paul.

@BarnacleBill

Well, I think I’d be accused of blatant prejudice if I told you what I really would like to call them! I was just trying to help mattbrowne out, as, not being from the US, the meaning might not have been readily apparent to him.

@cockswain – I’m aware of that, but they can do lots of damage in the meantime.

@missingbite – Apology accepted. I wonder when the Tea Party movement members will apologize to the German people for comparing Obama with Hitler. You can’t imagine how highly offensive this is over here. Not to mention Israel and the surviving relatives of the 6 million Jews who were brutally murdered by Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime. A comparison with a man who rejected high paying Wall Street job offers to become a community organizer in Chicago couldn’t be more absurd and is downright ignorant.

What are your views and what is your relationship with the Tea Party movement?

@cockswain – European concerns? Here are just a few

1) Unilateralism and threat to world peace
2) Bullying of European allies
3) More unrestrained predatory capitalism
4) Rise of Christian fascism and continued war on science
5) Further rise of climate change denial movement
6) The world’s number 1 innovation machine going belly up

@laureth – Thanks for the interesting link. Here’s a recent article in Der Spiegel

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,724418,00.html

which also explains why the Hitler comparison is so offensive to Germans.

@laureth Agreed, whatever they do to enrage liberals into voting will be bad. At least science got around the stem cell restrictions eventually.

@mattbrowne Interesting, as those are nearly identical to my concerns as an American. But I don’t think it will get as bad as it was during the Bush years. Again, if they behave as before, they can expect to lose power again. Not to say things can’t deteriorate for a while first.

The Hitler comparisons are offensive here as well. I really couldn’t believe it when the Tea Party gained traction by starting off like that. They aren’t as vocal about such things anymore, as they seem to have unified a bit more and shored up some ragged edges, but those idiots are still out there.

My friend is an electrician. When Obama was elected, my friend’s co-worker started carrying a loaded pistol on him at all times. When my friend asked him why, he said “Because when that nigger Obama gets assassinated, I need to be able to get home to my guns without getting killed by the rioting darkies.”

That’s just one guy. He actually thought he be driving home in his truck, shooting black people that would just be charging at him from all around, only to get home and then defend his home and family from an onslaught of black people. Madness, and it’s still alive.

@cockswain – I sincerely hope that the more far-sighted intellectual Republicans can keep the Tea Party in check.

You and me both. But again, extremism of any sort is generally rejected in the next election. Honestly, I’m glad to hear people in other parts of the world are concerned about this as well. I wish you guys could participate somehow. It’s like the US could really thrive if we could get about ⅓ of our populace to stop being so ignorant.

@mattbrowne

“I sincerely hope that the more far-sighted intellectual Republicans can keep the Tea Party in check.”

Unfortunately, in the US, unbridled anger is far more “sexy: than reason. People are scare, people are hurting, and such people do silly things. There’s a very good- but scary- book called What’s the Matter with Kansas? that looks into why people turn conservative and then vote against their own best interests- it’s fascinating.

@mattbrowne I have no relationship with the Tea Party Movement at all. You and I have had this discussion before.

Since you bring up the Tea Party members comparing Obama to Hitler and not Our Liberals doing the same thing to Bush I will assume that your news in Germany is as one sided as it is here. So I will give you a link with photos to read. You see sir, this has gone on for years and years yet some like to just blame Tea Party members.

I have to ask, are you as highly outraged when our liberals compare Bush to Hitler or is it just one sided for you as well? I don’t seem to remember you sticking up for Bush. Perhaps you believe it is justifiable toward him because you didn’t like his politics?

@missingbite – Comparing Bush to fascists is extremely wrong as well and I’ve said so repeatedly. I am outraged about this. But confused left-wing zealots do not make the actions of confused right-wing zealots any better. I’m a moderate liberal and I have great respect for honest, smart and well-educated Republicans without hidden political agendas.

A growing Tea Party movement is dangerous to the US and the rest of the world. We need America run by able politicians to deal with the challenges of the 21st century.

I mentioned this in the other threat: it’s okay to disagree with (some of) Obama’s views, but when it comes to education and intellectual depth the vast majority of intellectuals worldwide would probably agree that George W. Bush is an intellectual dwarf, while Barack Obama is an intellectual giant. Obama can talk about almost anything complex without any written notes, while Bush or Palin are not able to do this.

This doesn’t mean that all of George W. Bush’s views are bad or that he doesn’t have any strengths. When Obama first became US Senator he was invited to the White House by George W. Bush in January 5. In Obama’s book ‘The Audicity of Hope’ he mentioned that Bush saw the potential and predicted a steep career path. I also think Bush made a very smart move appointing Henry Paulson. Without him, the financial crisis would have been far worse. And he wrote a great book called ‘On the Brink’. The Republicans have many intellectual giants. Paulson is one example. Colin Powell is another. The sad thing about the Tea Party is that more than 90% of their leaders and supporters belong to the category of intellectual dwarfs.

It’s time that Republicans reclaim their party and keep the ultra-conservative zealots in check.

@mattbrowne We will have to agree to disagree on Obama’s speaking. (Without a teleprompter) Between him and Biden, there have been more off the cuff remarks that would have gotten any Republican excoriated in the press than I can count. We don’t hear much about these remarks because our press agrees with Obama. (Obama called Republican’s enemies just a few days ago. I don’t think any American Citizens have been “enemies” since our Civil War.)

Biden, well, his mouth has said so many stupid things I won’t even go into it. Yet he is qualified to be VP?

I have never stated that I agree with everything Bush said or did nor do I agree with very much if any of what Obama has said or done.

You have stated that the Tea Party is a growing threat to the US and the rest of the world. I believe you are very mistaken in that. The biggest threat to the US and the rest of the world is any government that is not in check and out of touch with it’s population. America has a long (sort of) history of doing good for the world and we have had Presidents that were both good and bad. The Tea Party, won’t survive if they go to far one way or the other. Obama went to far to the left and the US told him that on Tuesday. I believe that your feelings are opposite of that idea. You have the right to believe that. Most Americans are still center right.

What the left has done is there best effort to demonize Palin and others that they don’t agree with. Most Americans don’t like that. It has hurt the left and will continue to do so.

The idea that you have to be an intellectual giant to be president is nonsense. What I and most Americans believe and want is a smaller Federal Government with more choice and freedom given to its citizens.

The idea that the Government knows what is better for me than I do is also nonsense.

I stand by the belief that you and many others who have disdain for the Tea Party movement don’t really understand the people who are involved with it are about. Just because a few, and I mean a few, of the Tea Party people have views that are hateful does not mean the entire party is. Just like I can’t lump all left wing zealots in with moderate Blue Dog Democrats.

I said this before:

There seems to be a growing number of Republican voters who think countries should be run by normal people. They seem suspicious of people with degrees from Harvard. Being intellectual sounds negative to them. Well, here’s my solution

If they need heart surgery they got two options

1) Intellectual package
2) Non-intellectual package

Package one means they get Obama as President and a surgeon with a Ph.D. from a reputable university

Package two means they get a normal person like Palin as President and a normal person doing the surgery (Joe Plumber perhaps?)

I wonder what they will pick. I know what I pick. We need the people who are best qualified for a job. But some Republicans seem to refudiate this approach. Well, good luck with your open-heart surgery. Prayers might help, although I think God gave people a brain for a reason.

@mattbrowne I’ll answer your approach like this.

I have two siblings. The oldest of the three was a straight A student with multiple degrees from Ivy League schools. She doesn’t have the common sense to get out of the rain. She has wrecked multiple cars because of a lack of coordination and has basically spent her whole life as an outsider.

I’m the youngest of the three. I have a, let’s call it a learning disorder. Very difficult for me to read a technical manual or textbook. I did poorly in school and graduated from an average college with degrees in Aviation and Theoretical Physics. However, I do have the ability to operate almost any machinery with little or no instruction. I fly for a Major US Airline and have never failed a check ride. Very difficult to accomplish.

Middle child has both. She was a straight A student at a good school (although not Harvard) and almost everything she tries to do she excels at.

Point of the story is, some people put to much importance on schools and not enough on the person or intent. You can have your Harvard doctor.

I’ll keep my prayers and a good intentioned all around person.

BTW, you do know that Bush has degrees from Yale and Harvard Business? Kind of puts a damper on your theory, don’t you think?

@missingbite – My approach is the right guy and gal for the right job. Immanuel Kant once said: experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play.

In our societies we need people who are great at operating machinery and we need people who think about how our machinery will look like in 2020.

I just have a problem with people who belittle intellectualism and the value of theory. Joe Plumber can’t do open heart surgery, while most heart surgeons probably can’t solve difficult plumbing problems. The right guy and gal for the right job. There’s nothing wrong with highly-intelligent, intellectual US presidents. Republicans should stop making fun of intellectualism. That’s all I’m asking for.

@mattbrowne American right, I believe, has a real agenda to attack intellectuals. One of the main reasons is that the “low information” voter is much easier to manipulate. This election proved that. A good number of candidates propagated lies and covered up their strange agenda. Since the lies were shouted out while the agenda was whispered, the uninformed believed the lies and never heard the agenda. It is possible that the agenda of excoriating government while privatizing the commons will be exposed for what it is, rule by oligarchy.

Of course it is also likely that the Republican, Tea Party will keep a low profile by further obstructing progress, attempting to roll back what has been accomplished, increasing their chances to over come the President in 2012. Of course when the Republicans win we will see their real colors and further the Bush agenda. We will loose health care, public schools, government support for higher education, and the middle class will shrink to nothing. I predict that, if the conservative party regains complete power this country will be democratic in name only. The electorate will be increasingly poor and poorly educated. It is easy to control a country of ignorant serfs. They did it in Europe for hundreds of years and that is the true agenda of the leaders of the Tea and Republican party.

@Ron_C – I’m really shocked about all these hate mongers in the Tea Party movement, especially when it comes to some of their leaders. Here’s one example:

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2010/08/steven_anderson_hate-spewing_t.php

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/gospel-hate-arizona-pastor-steve-and

“Steven Anderson told a radio station last year he believes all homosexuals should be executed. Not only does the right-winger believe President Obama deserves to die—he prays for Obama’s death each night in his bedtime prayers.”

How can a guy like this actually think he’s a Christian?

@mattbrowne Please don’t forget about the 20 year pastor of our friend President Obama. Does his hate speech not count? We have both agreed that there are quacks in all aspects of life. Yes some are involved in the Tea Party. Some give spiritual advice to our President.

I’m sure you will disagree.

@missingbite So what is the value in showing that there is also hate on the left? Let’s say I completely agree that there is terrible corruption in both the Democratic and and GOP sides of the aisle, and liberals and conservatives can endlessly find examples of hate condemning the other. What then? Where can one take a conversation from there?

@cockswain I simply don’t like the way people always say how horrible the Tea Party is by using an example of a very small portion of the movement while they fail to point out both sides. What was the value is showing one example of a Tea Party wacko? Was it to try to paint the whole movement as such? It isn’t.

Fair enough. I agree it is never fair to use the actions of a small number of individuals in a group as representative of the actions of the whole. Do you think the Tea Party should do something to help mitigate its association with such behavior, or do you think it should be ignored by both liberals and the Tea Party as a whole as just fringe behavior?

I believe that the Tea Party has done a lot to mitigate its association with hate. I am not a member of the Tea Party but I have been to a rally. I can tell you first hand that it was very pro American and no hate. Everyone there was very respectful of each other and family oriented. I saw hundreds of political posters and two that were disrespectful. I also heard more than one person condemn the disrespectful posters by “educating” the person carrying them.

Have you or @mattbrowne been to a rally? Or just heard what the media wants you to see?

Gotta go, I’ll check back later. Nice debate!

I have not been to a rally. All of the information I have regarding the Tea Party has largely come from the media and this website. But besides going to a rally, where else could I get my information? Also, attending a rally would let me hear speeches. If there is a particularly good speech you heard you could send me, I’d be happy to discuss it.

I’m worried about left-wing radicals. I’m worried about right-wing radicals.

How many new left-wing radicals have won a seat in Congress?

How many new right-wing radicals have won a seat in Congress?

I think right now the issue is about the rising influence of the Tea Party movement, not communists trying to get seats in Congress.

And so far no jelly could give me a rough estimate for my question:

How many of the newly elected Republican members of Congress are part of an ultra-conservative movement such as the Tea Party?

4? 10? 20?

@mattbrowne – Perhaps this NPR article will help, at least for the Congressional vote.

New members of the U.S. House of Representatives are descending on Washington, D.C., this weekend for their official orientation, but before that, the Tea Party movement is holding orientation sessions of its own.

The congressional Tea Party Caucus, which was formed over the summer, is about to get much bigger. At least 40 of the new Republicans coming into office got help from the Tea Party movement.

They come to Washington this weekend to get acquainted with the institution they will be joining; one they criticized during the campaign. In interviews with local and national media in recent days, they have stressed they are not looking to blend in…

@mattbrowne If there were any left wing radicals elected, that’s surprise to me. I’m nominally a Democrat but few of those are as progressive as I am. Besides there is much less to fear from a left wing person than a right wing one. No left wingers supported wars of convenience, removing citizenship from persons born in this country, nor do they favor expanding the military while reducing social security and education.

Of course, the result are moot to me. Not one of the people for whom I voted won, not even in the local elections.

Thanks @laureth for the article. And 40 is a scary number. The question is do all new Congressmen who got help from the Tea Party also share all of their views.

@Ron_C – Greece has a serious problem with left-wing radicals. Some are even militant extremists. About two weeks ago some Greek left-wing extremists sent a parcel bomb to the German chancellor in Berlin.

Extremism is always a bad idea.

@mattbrowne I looked at a couple articles concerning the problems in Greece. They are very light on what the groups support. They also say that they are anarchist and some are connected to al-Qaida. None of that is really a definition of a left-wing group, especially in the U.S.

Here we “left-wingers” seek to level the playing field between government rules, corporate agendas, and social support. There is a big difference between a religious radical, anarchist, and people with politics left of center. Besides the center varies from country to country.

@mattbrowne – The newly-elected Tea Party-supported congresspeople recently attended an orientation session that, I expect, is given to all new incoming elected officials. It’s where things like rules for Blackberry usage, etc., are discussed, as well as ethical expectations. However, the Tea Party Patriots organization has expressed a fear that this is the way that the people who are already ‘Washington Insiders’ indoctrinate the new folks, and that this will surely lead them on the downward spiral of compromise, working together, and ‘go along to get along’ that people have to do to get anything done in Congress. In other words, the Tea Party is afraid that their newly-minted electees will lose that special tea party attitude and maybe no longer “share their views,” as you put it.

To remedy this, the Tea Party Patriots have made public certain information about the new congressmen, including their personal email addresses and personal cell phone numbers, so that they can avoid being “indoctrinated” by the Washington establishment. Link

I expect as the Tea Party voters will be in constant contact with their new lawmakers, making sure they always do the “right” thing.

@laureth I find it disturbing that an orientation tour is looked as a indoctrination by the Tea Party supporters especially since most of their agenda was financed and initiated by corporate supporters. I guess government is bad corporations (no matter in which country they originate) are good. This a sad time for democracy in America.

Ron, I’m right there with you. I also find it disturbing that the only way Tea Party people feel like they are represented in government is by refusing to co-operate with the rest of Americans (like me) who would also like to feel represented. By importing a bunch of Tea Party™ brand representatives to be a very vocal “No!” caucus, they plug up the works for the rest of us.

@laureth Like I said in other posts, I think that this last election marked the end of our representative democracy and the beginning of corporate oligarchy. I notice that these people keep a tight rein on power and doubt that I will live long enough to see the re-establishment of democracy in this part of North America.

@Ron_C – I find this article useful

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Greece

@mattbrowne I remember that Italy had similar problems with the Communist party when I was stationed there. I think that your definition of leftist and mine differ.

When I say left, I think of the Green party, or parties and politicians that believe that there should be social and economic justice. I think that government should represent the best interests of the people they govern, and that government can be both logical and humane.

The “far left” in Greece and occasionally Italy want to destroy the government and bring in a strong dictator or government body that tightly controls the population similar to China under Mao. To me that means that people have moved so far left that they are back into Fascist government or at best anarchist that don’t want any government controls, similar the Libertarians in the U.S.

@Ron_C – In Germany we had the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction

@mattbrowne that’s what I was trying to remember, Red Army Faction. Thanks

@mattbrowne isn’t it possible that there may be a resurgence of a similar group but this time internationally. I saw a news story about Japanese twins, one has a job in Japan and another has a “career” in China. Both believe that it is very difficult for a talented, educated young person to advance in Japanese society. In fact the jobless rate for 20 to 30 year -olds is the highest it has ever been. Then Ireland is in danger of loosing its sovereignty to the EU because of financial problem causing many youth to emigrate to other countries. In this country this is the first generation that is not likely to do better than their parents. We already have radical right wingers attempting to take over the government to protect their personal interests. This seems a lot like Germany when it lost its democracy to the Nazis.

I think that if there was a revolt in the U.S. I would be on the side of the youth and progressives to fight against the entrenched privileged class.

@Ron_C – In Germany there’s now a party, called

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Left_(Germany)

as a leftover of the East German socialists. They reject violence of course. A lot of left-wing thinkers now have the option to vote for them.

Matt, I like these guys, they seem like my style of progressives.

Oh, look. The Tea Party has already started to buckle on its strong ideals…

Anti-earmark Tea Party Caucus takes $1 billion in earmarks

I don’t consider members of the “Tea Party” to be “ultra-conservative.” I see them as simply mainstream conservative. I consider myself to be Tea Party aligned, and I am certainly NOT ultra right wing. If Liberals just LISTENED to the Tea Party platform, I think they’d be surprised how much they agree. The problem is when we categorize each other, and stop listening, and stop giving fair consideration to opposing views.

@JDJones

“If Liberals just LISTENED to the Tea Party platform, I think they’d be surprised how much they agree.”

OK, I am a liberal. Let me know what I might agree with.

Which Tea Party platform? Last I heard, they still couldn’t agree amongst themselves what the party stood for.

I’m new here, and I don’t know how to do the quote thing, so I’ll just copy and paste:
crisw-
“If Liberals just LISTENED to the Tea Party platform, I think they’d be surprised how much they agree.”

OK, I am a liberal. Let me know what I might agree with.
————
Well, can we agree that one of the main reasons we find ourselves in this financial mess is because of mortgage defaults? When I bought my first home in 1974, I had to have a minimum of 20% as a down payment. And my monthly payment including taxes and insurance could not exceed 25% of my take home pay. I also had to prove my earnings were what I claimed they were. There was no Fanny May or Freddie Mac backing bad loans. There were no federal regulations insisting that non-credit worthy applicants receive loans regardless of their ability to pay. Can we agree that federal regulations created this epidemic of defaults?

laurel:
“Which Tea Party platform? Last I heard, they still couldn’t agree amongst themselves what the party stood for.”
——————-
For years I had an attorney who would caution me by saying “Never get into a pissing contest with a skunk.” I think you may be one of those people he warned me about. You post a smart alec question “which platform?” Let me ask you a question. Do you know ANY political party where ALL representatives are in agreement on EVERY issue? Of course not. And yet you denigrate the Tea Party for not being in lockstep total agreement. How silly!

I don’t agree with every position of the Tea Party, I agree with many of them. Is this a forum of ideas, or is it just another Gotcha Forum?

@JDJones Ah, but we cannot blame mortgage defaults in themselves as the cause of the financial crisis. Rather it was the estimated ~$600–700 trillion in mortgage backed derivatives in a shadow, completely unregulated market, that was the cause. Wall Street crap, not the actual individuals that defaulted irresponsibly on their mortgages. That was maybe only 10% f the problem.

cockswain: Really 600–700 TRILLION? I had no idea it was that high a figure. I didn’t know there was that much debt in the world.

I don’t know what a derivative is. But whatever they are, wouldn’t they be backed by individual mortgages? And if the mortgages were all sound, current, and not under water, then wouldn’t the derivatives still be sound?

Great question, and beyond the scope of what I can reasonably explain in a post. A simple way to get some background on this issue would be to begin with a documentary called “Plunder: The Crime of Our Time.” Or if you’re motivated, read the book. There’s also a good Frontline documentary called “The Warning.” Also (and many of a conservative bend will abhor anything by him) Michael Moore’s documentary “Capitalism: A Love Story” also investigates aspects of this topic. Finally, there is also one called “Collapse”, which is essentially an interview with an investigative journalist named Michael Ruppert.

Should you view any of these, then we’ll be able to have a more informed discussion. So to summarize, the Tea Party is generally associated with deregulation of free markets. The above documentaries should give you valid reasons to at least contemplate that philosophy.

@JDJones – no, this isn’t a Gotcha. You said that “If Liberals just LISTENED to the Tea Party platform, I think they’d be surprised how much they agree.” You seem to imply that there is A Tea Party platform, when there doesn’t seem to be one. Even the Tea Party Patriots espouse three such platforms, some more or less disagreeable than others.

There’s a difference between a political party’s platform, and what each adherent necessarily believes.

@JDJones

Okay, so what does your statement on mortgages have to do, exactly, with the Tea Party platform?

The tea party (tea baggers as I like to call them) got their start up money from big business and international corporations. They brought together ultra-right wingers, “birthers”, and sadly misinformed senior citizens to form the modern version of the Know Nothing party.
You can say that the vast majority bought the whole, no tax, free trade, anti-union, anti-immigrant, and white supremacists. They have made a science of lying repeatedly until their members think the lies are “common knowledge”. They are swayed by emotion and seem unable to accept knowledge or reason.

I think that the Tea party is in it’s infancy, or perhaps going through the terrible twos. They are trying to discover who and what they are. There will be a struggle for leadership and identity. I don’t know how it will turn out, but I’m watching and waiting to see if they will stand for some of the things that I believe in.

And here’s how that “hopey changey” thing is working out for the Tea Party so far.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-tea-party-20110105,0,4057564.story

Is this really a surprise?

Not a surprise…but still sad.

@JDJones – Welcome to Fluther! Well, can you give me one example where the Tea Party movement and ultra conservatives differ.

@laureth it is quite obvious that most of the “tea party” candidates said what they said to get elected. Now that they are in office it is back to business as usual. I think only 4 of them rejected government paid health insurance and those four are wealthy enough to pay for their own medical care.

@Ron_C I am beginning to doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.

It is easy to be critical of government when you are not part of it. Once you are sworn it, you find traps everywhere.
Here in California, Governor Brown is trying to get rid of all the redevelopment agencies. This is actually a great idea, since they generally bleed the governments dry, and often provide a worthless service. (I am not saying there is no need for it. I am saying they don’t do the job they should)
Brown will find a lot of opposition, even though he was voted in to make the tough choices.
The cool thing is he doesn’t care. He is 72, and knows this is his last political office. He also knows state and local government very well.
Of course, Brown is not a tea partier, though they should have adopted him, since he is famous for having his own apartment, instead of the Governors Mansion, and driving his old Plymoth instead of having a government driver and limo.
The Tea Baggers would learn a few things watching him.

Best…Donnie Darko reference…ever…

@filmfann I never heard of the Sparkle Motion. I do remember Jerry Brown and have admired him for a long time. I doubt, however, that he would be welcomed by the Tea Party movement. The main reason is that he thinks for himself and is not lead around by corporate influences. The thing that is most likely to get you thrown out of the Tea Party is to believe that government can be a force for good. They seem intent on overthrowing the government and turning it over to corporations that do not have to account to voters.

@filmfann by the way, I lost my hometown to a “redevelopment” plan. They tore down the major part of the downtown area with hundreds of small stores and businesses to build a “downtown mall”. My former diverse and vibrant home town is almost a ghost town.

I also experienced “redevelopment” in Norfolk Va. What they did was throw a majority of poor people out of their houses and moved them into suburban towns. The then built some upscale apartments and expensive hotels. It may have been good for big business but it ruined a lot of jobs and neighborhoods.

I think my state, Florida, once again takes the prize with the election of teabagger Rep. Alan West ( R ) Fla, a former US Army half-bird colonel who “retired” from military service in 2004 in order to put a quiet end to an investigation into accusations by his own men of his torturing prisoners under his command during the Bush administration. To actually be indicted for torture during the Rumsfeld-Gonzalez era, famous for legalizing waterboarding, etc., it had to be pretty bad. There is so much more to tell about this whackjob… and it says soooo much about the whackjobs in Florida who put this nutcase into office. This guy makes the other teabaggers that spew venom about second amendment solutions and a former bride of Satan (now conveniently divorced and devoutly Christian), look pretty sane.

Don’t like the term teabagger? Let’s take a closer look at these people.~

Teabaggers are in no way conservatives. They seem to be lunatics that rarely get anything right, have a poor collective knowledge base compounded by bad or no research, and attempt to compensate by relying on barely comprehensible, high-volume soundbites that seem to emanate from the mentally ill—better to attract even more drooling constituents who proudly flaunt their GEDs (a little education can‘t hurt, I suppose). I thoroughly enjoyed how they unintentionally revealed their tenuous grasp of issues, events, and government structure during their incoherent screaming sessions at last year’s town hall meetings (Who could forget “KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF MY MEDICARE!!!”). And oooh those fat old men and their sexy assault rifles.

What do they stand for? It’s even hard to determine, with any consistency, what they profess to be against in the cacophony of bitterness and anger revealed in the public statements and internal emails by their “leadership.”

Do they really emulate their namesakes, the original Tea Party? Hardly. It’s obvious from their party literature that these ignoramuses have no idea what the demonstration at Boston Harbor in 1773 was about. Not an inkling. Based on their barely legible literature, they’ve assumed it had something to do with the destruction of British government property in reaction to increased taxation against the common citizen. Cursory research reveals it was about the destruction of corporate property in protest of Parliament’s removal of duties on tea imports exclusively for one of the largest corporations in the world (at the time) while forcing all other tea importers to continue to pay the tea duties—effectively giving the East India Company (many of whose major stockholders were members of Parliament) a monopoly on tea imports in Britain and her colonies. Got that? The Tea Act was the government removal of a tax from the tea imported by ONE huge corporation, reducing its costs and enabling it to reduce sales prices in order for it to monopolize a market to the detriment the American tea import business and the general citizenry. American importers and ship owners, mostly family businesses, private companies and small caps supporting local economies from Georgia to Maine—a whole industry—was about to be killed off because their political representatives in London had become corporate whores. Sound familiar? It should. It certainly rang a bell with our founding fathers. Two and a half years later they were in an all out war with the British Empire that would last for eight years. They took Big Money interference pretty seriously in those days.

Today, If an organized group of dissidents destroyed the contents of three corporate shipping vessels (they would first have to escape mandated confinement in the “Free Speech Zone” to get to the harbor) as a protest against the corporation using its financial clout to influence the government to pass laws detrimental to their interests as citizens (it’s now done all the time), the teabaggers would be among the first to scream Marxist Terrorists!—only louder and… more geriatrically. Said dissidents would then very likely be disappeared into legal limbo under the Patriot Act and possibly renditioned to an offshore site to be visited daily by interesting guys like former Lt. Col. Alan West ( R ) Fla., lately of the teabaggers.

Teabaggers necessarily must side with corporations in their battle to keep the government from taking over the government itself and therefore they must remain teabaggers to avoid any confusion with the real American revolutionaries of 1773 who took direct action against the power of an enormous corporate entity attempting to infringe upon their liberties and overpower the modicum of representation afforded them in Parliament. There is no political relationship between the Tea Party of old and the pack of imbeciles who have recently attempted to co-opt the name and glory.

So, alas, the teabaggers must remain teabaggers to avoid insulting our American revolutionary heritage. And why not? Is this not the label they themselves proudly coined in a series of FOXTV interviews in 2008—“We’re the Teabaggers!”—being ignorant at the time of the more recent etymological developments? Hilarious. And they’ve been trying to take it back ever since. Even more hilarious.

These teabaggers have had the same opportunities for an education and cultural awareness as the rest of us, but turn out as the most ignorant politicos since the aptly named “Know Nothings” of the mid-19th century—a party with which they coincidentally do happen to have a lot in common. As a matter of fact, I think we would all agree to stop using the term teabaggers if the teabaggers decided to co-opt “the Know Nothings” as a party name. I surely would agree to that. It’s much more appropriate in both name and tradition.

They scared the hell out of the GOP for a while because they didn’t know what to do with these freaks (a monster of their own creation—an orphan lunatic fringe they nurtured to fatten results at the GOP polls only to be descarded back into political Bedlam later. Now, since the midterms, the GOP will fill free to distance themselves and let the nutcases flounder (not even congressmen want to hang with war criminals who are stupid enough to get caught), use them when necessary, and in the meantime, they will be what they have always been—an American embarrassment, just another political anomaly, useful dupes, and morons with one or two very cynical, ambitious, connected manipulators like Rand Paul.

They are not a threat and will not be with us long—if only due to their professed commitment to term limits (that should be interesting). So we can all catch our breath until the rightwing astroturfers produce the next pack of “grassroots” clowns, buffoons, birthers, quasi-libertarians, backyard political scientists, racists, xenophobes, paranoiacs, religious fanatics, former occultists, crypto-fascists, conspiracy freaks, generally insecure microdicks with assault rifles, etc., etc., etc…. and war criminals.

Just think of this like intermission at a really good comedy club.

Great answer. Don’t forget when they didn’t want Obama to talk to their kids about staying in school either. One of the most hysterical things I’ve seen since Obama was elected.

I just want to know when the The Rent is Too Damn High party is going to take off…

I love that guy.

The comedy of errors known as the teabaggers will either morph into generic coporate whores like the rest of congress, or disappear. Nothing new here.

A much more sinister ultra-rightwing group that bears serious watching is The Fellowship. They’ve been around a long time, are on both sides of the aisle, have influenced both domestic and foreign policy, and very few Americans are aware of their existence. Real spooky bastards.

@Espiritus_Corvus

Re your Fellowship link: mattbrowne, BarnacleBill, and Rand Paul are part of the The Fellowship? ;-)

@Espiritus_Corvus excellent answer to explain the differences between the teabaggers and the tea party. By the way the real tea party was done without violence (except to the tea and corporate profits). The idea that a government would declare war is abhorrent today as it was then. What we have, now is the government forcing young people into the military to fight wars against countries that meant us no harm (until we attacked them). I gave you a point and wish I could have given more!.

Should anyone question my statement about forcing young people into the military, please explain what alternatives exist for the poor and lower middle class to get an education and employment.

The Tea Party misnomer shows the profound and alarming ignorance of this dubious movement. First it was about war on science. Now it’s about war on history too. Just distort facts and terms, make people repeat it and these non facts become acceptable. Like global warming isn’t happening (who cares about reading thermometers) or everything non-Republican is socialism (who cares about the definition of socialism).

The name “Tea Party” is a reference to the historic Boston Tea Party of 1773, a protest by American colonists against taxation by the British government when the colonists had no representation in the British Parliament.

The US is a democracy and not a colony. The movement should know that politicians who are supporters of fiscal conservatism are actually part of the Senate and House of Representatives. The Tea Party folks haven’t understood democracy at all. They think that they are only represented if the President is a Republican who can rely on a Republican-dominated Senate and House of Representatives.

@mattbrowne – better yet, the original Boston tea party was a protest of a tax decrease. :) Most neo-Tea Partiers don’t seem to realize that part.

@laureth Unless my history is distorted, which is possible, your linked article is total spin. Something MSNBC is known for. The original TEA Party according to history was a revolt against a Tax levied by legislature that was not passed by their Representatives. I could be wrong but that is different than your link that states “a tax decrease.” Regardless the “cost” or “Tax” the revolt was over Representation.

@missingbite – I have to be a bit flippant and have to ask – were you there?

Also, I don’t know why you are referencing MSNBC – the source for the link is leftist, true, and it mentions CNBC in the first lines, but I don’t see how spin from MSNBC comes into discussion here…

But regardless…it’s been adopted as a great symbol of our Revolution. Symbols always end up being less than perfect in reality but they’re still effective. In the end, all history was spin because none of us was there. But in all honesty, what @laureth cited was what I was taught in high school. So it’s just pointing out the historical irony of the platform considering the name…Plus, purchasing tea from a corporation to pour it on the street just doesn’t have the grandeur that I expect from my revolutionary symbols.

@iamthemob Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I read dozens of articles a day and could have sworn that one mentioned MSNBC. I was mistaken.

I have to disagree that all History is spin. Just because we were not there doesn’t mean we can’t have an actual account of it. We may be taught the wrong thing, but less than 250 years is easily trackable. With that said, students today are taught fiction as fact and spin in a lot of cases. School isn’t what it used to be.

What I was taught was that the Tea was destroyed because the Royal Governor of Mass. refused to send the Tea back to Britain so they protested. I could have been taught wrong.

@missingbite – I read your post before I read the link, and I first saw it as MSNBC as well – and caught myself before it was too late. So I got you. ;-)

The problem of course with attributing a real reason in the end, or what the specific motivation was, is that it was a defiant act of rebellion – full of a lot of grandstanding and show – and there’s always a lot of legend that surrounds such things, particularly when they get symbol status.

I wouldn’t say students today are taught any more spin than in the past. I shudder to think what I’d find if I cracked a texbook on history from the 1950s and reviewed some of the presentation on race issues….

And I think that the governor was part of it too – but the reason why the colonists didn’t want it there is because of the tax cut.

Now of course, it was a tax cut on the large scale transnational corporation with skill lobbying British Government interests which made competition from smaller businesses impossible. So, there’s some things in there for the Tea Partiers to latch onto.

@iamthemob Great post. The only thing I would add that I remember from the History lesson I learned was that the “fight” was not over the tax cut given to the East India Company but rather over the Townsend Revenue Act that allowed the British government to make up some of the tax cut given to the East India Company by taxing the Colonies.

I somehow find it hard to believe that lowering Taxes, as both @laureth and the article seem to suggest, would happen. I can see people in the Colonies getting upset by Taxes, Townsend Revenue Act, being applied to them without their having any say. Who knows. It’s been fun trying to remember all of this anyway!

@missingbite – Really? I think it’s exactly what would make them revolt – laws were passed cutting the taxes over a period of years so that it could undercut local merchants. Since the Crown family had shares in the company, they were realizing the profits from that (the income earned by colonists) and the colonists were still charged taxes on their tea.

That’s taxation without representation plus “and we think that we’ll kill off your business too!.”

@iamthemob I guess we are seeing the same act from different eyes. The result of the tax breaks to the East India Company so they could compete was offset by the taxes imposed by the Townsend Revenue Act. That was the tax without representation. If the East India Company could have made money with the tax breaks and no Townsend Revenue Act to make up the difference, I don’t think we would have had the protest. It would have simply been cheaper Tea. Again, I could be wrong.

When I stated before, “I somehow find it hard to believe that lowering Taxes, as both @laureth and the article seem to suggest, would happen” I didn’t finish. It should have stated,

I somehow find it hard to believe that lowering Taxes to keep prices low and thus supply cheaper tea. as both @laureth and the article seem to suggest, would happen.

@missingbite

The directors of the company attempted to avert bankruptcy by appealing to Parliament for financial help. This led to the passing of the Tea Act in 1773, which gave the Company greater autonomy in running its trade in America, and allowed it an exemption from the tea tax which its colonial competitors were required to pay. When the American colonists, who included tea merchants, were told of the act, they tried to boycott it, claiming that, although the price had gone down on the tea when enforcing the act, it was a tax all the same, and the king should not have the right to just have a tax for no apparent reason. The arrival of tax-exempt Company tea, undercutting the local merchants, triggered the Boston Tea Party.

Now, whether or not the colonial tea trade was wholly legal, the local merchants would be permanently undercut because of the tax removal. The Company was meant to be a monopoly, pushing the small competition out. All of that money would likely be going back to England.

It is essentially would be as close to a real example of an attempt at predatory pricing I can think of.

Did you guys read what @Espiritus_Corvus wrote up here? He corroborates what you’re saying about the causes of the Tea Party. Predatory pricing indeed. It was honestly news to me. I always just thought it was loosely over the Americans not wanting to pay taxes to the British without representation. Apparently there was more to the story (thanks Fluther!)

it’s funny, I went looking for that post by searching through his responses on his profile, only to realize I read it on this same thread

@cockswain HA!...nope. Didn’t see that. Thanks. ;-)

that person doesn’t post often, but has posted some of my favorite posts ever on this site

@iamthemob Are you saying you ignored a long post by someone? For shame…

@cockswain – it was late…and I actually remember that it was posted…and I find that particular users posts to be generally incredibly insightful…and I forgot to look back. It was a bad moment for me.

Every time the name Tea Party as a present-day movement gets mentioned over here, people are shocked about the ignorance related to this name. Seriously. Ultra-conservatives should give up their war on science and their war on history. They can criticize the Democrats. They can criticize the President. They can share their political ideas and debate them. But they should give up the name Tea Party. That’s just so ridiculous.

@mattbrowne

I guess that perhaps, outside the US, people don’t have the same connotations when the phrase “Tea Party” is mentioned. In the US, the phrase instantly brings to mind images of independent revolutionaries bucking the oppressive government. Historical accuracy doesn’t figure in to it :>)

We’re getting a little unreasonable in our demands for historical accuracy here, I think. “Tea Party” is a fine title considering they believe they are part of a “revolution” of sorts. It’s a bit self-important (more than a bit), but so many events of the Revolution are understood in a more symbolic than accurate way, and there’s always a limit to historical accuracy.

What bothers me about the reference is that they are taking what became a significant event in American history and implying that we are currently in the throes of a similar battle against another empire. It’s just this time, the empire is Obama and over half the nation that elected him.

@crisw – I would expect that American history is the same in America and Europe. There is only one history.

Sure, but it gets spun of course. For example, at least at recently as the late 90s, The Civil War was taught in Georgia as “The War of Northern Aggression.”

@mattbrowne

“There is only one history.”

Agreed- but the interpretations of that history differ wildly.

@crisw – Because Europeans and Americans are close friends with a large cultural overlap, interpretations of history should not differ wildly. For example when interpreting the Boston Tea Party on December 16, 1773.

@mattbrowne

I agree they should not differ- among reasonable people. But those who seek to twist history to fit their own agendas are not reasonable. Look, for example, at neo-Nazis of all stripes and all countries.

@crisw – Yes, neo-Nazis do twist history and they are a disgrace. I was talking about mainstream reasonable historians in Europe and America and how they interpret the Boston Tea Party.

@mattbrowne

I agree about mainstream historians; the Tea Party folks are not such people.

@crisw “outside the US, people don’t have the same connotations when the phrase “Tea Party” is mentioned. In the US, the phrase instantly brings to mind images of independent revolutionaries ” That was true until today’s Tea Party started. Now when I hear “Tea Party” I picture ignorant grouchy old people with guns and signs like “Keep the Government away from my Medicare”. Today’s tea party had ruined the image of the original.

@Ron_C , I agree with you. It’s unfortunate that the rabble took off with what might have been a good idea, and ruined it for those who were truly interested in fiscal reform.

@wilma we have two really good ideas of fiscal reform Greece where they parliament buckled to the world banks punitive finance plan. The whole country is falling apart. They tried similar steps in Iceland and found the results unacceptable. Iceland took over its own banks and ignored the world bank. The country is now on its way to a full recovery without causing a revolution and causing unnecessary suffering.

Oops. I meant The Fellowship(Christian_organization) bears watching.