Would anyone think if there was a White Miss America Pageant, A white college fund or if affirmative action helped underqualified white people get a job that, that would be racist?

Sure it would be. this is what the fundementals of busing was all about. equality. this is what the civil riots was all about. equality.

@john65pennington So do you think affirmative action, a Black Miss America Pageant and the United Negro College Funds are racist too?

That would be called “the first 250 years of US history”...

@BarnacleBill Wow! I didn’t know that the Miss America Pageant and the United Caucasian College Fund has been around that long! Thanks for the history lesson and completely using your answer, not to answer my question, but just to rant about your own personal beliefs.

Yes that would be racist! It’s a just a fact of life.

@Mat74UK So do you think affirmative action, a Black Miss America Pageant and the United Negro College Funds are racist too?

Nah just leave everything as it is. It all seems to be working.

@Mat74UK So racism is only racism when someone white does it?

@BarnacleBill‘s answer was very succinct

The reaction to it suggests the original question is actually a statement.

@DerangedSpaceMonkey – It does seem to be a little one sided, but that’s life and life’s not fair. Just get used to it.

@jaytkay – Yep it does seem that way.

As racist as this question is.

@marinelife So because I’m asking a question about racism, I’m a racist?

@DerangedSpaceMonkey Yes racism is only racism when someone white does it. Everything else is payback for the whole slavery thing.

I am going by your apparent agenda. Your secondary question that you ask many people who responded to your original question in an honest way.

“So do you think affirmative action, a Black Miss America Pageant and the United Negro College Funds are racist too?”

@Lightlyseared So because my ancestors may have owned slaves, I’m not allowed to have equality?

@DerangedSpaceMonkey yes. pretty much. sorry.

@marinelife How do you know I’m not black? If I was would you be looking at my question differently?

@Lightlyseared Well what about the fact that some blacks owned slaves in the US and that we bought our slaves from black people? Does that not mean anything to you?

How quickly this turned into a slave issue.

@DerangedSpaceMonkey no. those arguments never get you anywhere.

@chyna Yes, it’s strange how every time racism is mentioned racism is brought up. It seems like all white people are blamed for slavery and only white people are blamed for it. It was around 200 years ago and I’m still being judge for it.

@Lightlyseared Well anytime you argue with someone who’s close minded no arguments will work. Maybe one day you will commit a crime and your great, great, great, great grandchildren will serve time for it. Maybe they will disagree with your opinion. How far does this blame thing go? Is it only on racism? Was the Holocaust okay, because the Jews killed Jesus?

Did someone mention ranting about one’s own personal beliefs instead of addressing the question? I think that was somewhere in this thread, lemme see…

@jaytkay I was responding to a comment directed directly at me, not a question that was directed at the fluther community. There’s a difference.

Yeah it is a double standard isn’t it? How can you expect people to be equals if you treat one group with special treatment?

the programs you draw a parallel to help disadvantaged people. Programs that help disadvantaged whites are not racist if the criteria do not require being white. Programs that use only the criterion of being white are racist.

Yes, they would. And they would be right. Why is it not so for blacks, or other minorities? Because they are disadvantaged minorities. If the whites in America had been subjected to slavery when they arrived here, then to a hundred years of Jim Crow laws and lynchings that were never even investigated; if whites made up a disproportionate part of the poor, the undereducated, the prison population, and the unemployed; it would not be wrong that they get some help leveling the playing field.

You may be able to argue rationally that affirmative action hasn’t worked well, and should be changed. But to argue it’s given blacks the upper hand in 70% white America when only 5 corporations in the Fortune 500 have black CEOs is patently absurd.

Maybe one day you will commit a crime and your great, great, great, great grandchildren will serve time for it…Was the Holocaust okay, because the Jews killed Jesus?

The Miss Black America Pageant equals the Holocaust and imprisons white beauty queens?

I did not know that.

@ETpro – nice answer, I wish I could give more lurve for it!

@DerangedSpaceMonkey : alright, this is coming from a black person. It is a double standard, but it seems to be working out pretty well. And to answer your point about black people owning slaves, that was a super small minority that barely existed… it really was mostly the whites.
When your race is taken from it’s country, enslaved, killed, and had countless unspeakable acts done to it, then you can talk about how it’s unfair.
Life isn’t fair.
I hate to say it, but it’s true.

I’ve had family members that were slaves – I’ve heard the stories that were passed down. Next time you want to complain about something being unfair or racist, think about what they went through.

(this is what my mom says) When my grandmother went to college, she went to there poor and wasn’t told about the scholarships.
We had to be self-affirming of our culture because no one else would tell us. Thankfully, that is changing.
What you see as black racism is really black love.

It used to be possible to help a people who had been disadvantaged more than you help others. Now we say that the only standards that can be used are those based on something measurable that can be applied the same to everyone.

I don’t think affirmative action was racist. I think it was an attempt to help some very poor people get a leg up. It’s a very difficult problem to address. If people are discriminated against because of the color of their skin, and this discrimination is systematic on the part of the culture or nation, then the nation can decide if they want to find a way to make up for the unfair way the out-group has been treated.

It’s a hard thing to do fairly. In fact, thinking about making up for the past probably doens’t make any sense. What makes sense is to help people who are hurting in the present.

@Lightlyseared “Yes racism is only racism when someone white does it. Everything else is payback for the whole slavery thing.”

No offense, but that is complete bullshit, friend. Racism is racism, coming from anyone. Look up the definition of the word. Nowhere in there does it say: Something only white people can be. Also, I might add that “payback” does not equality make.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand where you’re coming from – but all in all, those kind of thoughts about payback – especially to many current white people, who never owned slaves, who would never even think about it, only serves to further the divide that’s trying to be closed by a lot of people. If you think affirmative action was about “payback”, that truly saddens me. I don’t for a second hold the belief that affirmative action had negative origins, or that it was about revenge. I hold the belief, as @troubleinharlem does, that it was about love and true equality. Negative feelings for some people who were a part of affirmative action are perfectly understandable, but I don’t think the main idea was, “Get back at the white man”. Hate breeds hate, period. No matter the age, race, or sex.

I also think that education, rather than condemnation, service a person and society better, in general. In other words… When someone asks a genuine question, even if it’s born of ignorance, answer them the best you know how. Enlighten them. Change negative perceptions, don’t only fuel them.

I think this question is drowning in political correctness.

Society may be naturally resegregating in some ways, but the nation as a whole elected Barack Obama. We need to stop taking all this so seriously. Where is Dave Chapelle when you need him?

@DrasticDreamer : Well said.

To answer the main question, yes Miss White America and The White College Fund are racist.

Personally I think the United Negro College fund should rename itself to help people of lower income regardless of race. I think it is time for African Americans to not separate themselves from the rest of society. For a long time in America Blackpeople were treated unfairly, no question, and then we swung the pendulum trying to give them a better chance, and now lets start really being equal I think, not defining each other by race, but by other common circumstances outside of race. But, I do not think Miss Black America or the United Negro College fund is racist, I just think at this point it might be bad marketing, and working against blacks as a group at this point. Maybe I am wrong?

I get your point. Blacks get away with this sort of stuff because they know others won’t call them out on it. Well it looks like you and I would.

This sort of nonsense will probably still be going on in 3010.

How about this? I remember once talking to this guy on a flight who went on this tangent about how blacks are their own worst enemies, they don’t help themselves, drop out of school, wind up in jail, even complained about the very thing the OP is talking about, having black clubs, and black funds, and black organizations, blah blah, all racist shit. Then, he went on about how African Americans who do well, don’t do anything to give back to their communities. That when people immigrated here from other countries the families and communities helped each other, the Polish, the Italians, etc., and they should stop looking to the government for handouts. So, I said to him,“I think you might be talking out of both sides of your mouth. You say you are against the NAACP, and the United Negro College Fund, but then you say blacks should be helping blacks.” He too saw that there was a contradiction there.

The issue about whether there should be a Miss Black America was already addressed here. But here’s something I said in that thread:

There seems to be a tendency to treat equality and diversity as mutually exclusive concepts. I’ll say that it’s not really an appropriate comparison when you bring busing in the education context into this. Greater racial diversity in schools is a benefit, but the main reason is the difference in school quality and available educational opportunities. Prior to desegregation, schools in many areas were based on a “free choice” scenario. However,

“many Southern districts replaced freedom-of-choice with geographically based schooling plans; but because residential segregation was widespread, this had little effect [on desegregation], either. In 1971, the Court in Swann v. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Board of Education approved busing as a remedy to segregation; three years later, though, in the case of Milliken v. Bradley (1974), it set aside a lower court order that had required the busing of students between districts, instead of merely within a district. Milliken basically ended the Supreme Court’s major involvement in school desegregation; however, up through the 1990s many federal trial courts remained involved in school desegregation cases, many of which had begun in the ‘50s and ‘60s. American public school systems, especially in large metropolitan areas, to a large extent are still de facto segregated.”

It’s a remedy to attempt to eliminate the functional separate-but-inequal education mentality that exists functionally in many areas, if not legally.

Now, participating in one pageant or another doesn’t deprive you of an equal education. Not everyone gets to participate. Therefore, there isn’t an uneven distribution of a fundamental resource.

Now, as to the existence of a Miss Black America, it was of course because the Miss America Pageant did not allow ethnic minorities to compete. And now, even though they can, there was no black Miss America until 1984.

Once they were allowed to compete in the first pageant, it doesn’t mean that they had a remotely fair chance of succeeding. Further, just because they were finally allowed to compete, doesn’t mean that they should then stop having a pageant which had come to mean something to them culturally. Consider this reaction:

“once a Black newspaper asked “Why should there be a Miss Black America Pageant since the Miss America Pageant now accepts Black women?” The response was: “You wouldn’t suggest closing your Black newspaper simply because a major white daily published a story about a Black, would you?””

Finally, because we are talking about women that are meant to be public representatives, it is as important that minority woman have someone that they can look up to, as the image of what a woman is, particularly what a beautiful woman is, and overwhelmingly what a successful woman is has been white. Therefore, there is still an important social value to continuing the pageant despite an ability to participate now in what was formerly, actually, the thing you were wondering about – the “Miss White America.”

See here and here.

I feel like this was already addressed also when you were by Self_Consuming_Cannibal here. But it was also covered here and here and here.

Are there any new arguments?

@MeinTeil : “I get your point. Blacks get away with this sort of stuff because they know others won’t call them out on it. Well it looks like you and I would.”

Getting away with? You and @JLeslie make it sound like we stole a cookie and didn’t get caught. It isn’t that we got away with something, but that we got something to make up for the suffering that was put upon us.

@iamthemob : I love how your answer made him delete his account. That’s powerful stuff, man.

@troubleinharlem Huh? What did I say? I am fine with the minorities having their own clubs and associations. Unless you mean my comment that it might be better to focus on poverty rather than race? If all the minorities united and saw themselves in a similar struggle and circumstance, they would have incredible strength in numbers. Someone once said to me, the white people in power live to see division and dislike among the various grouos in the lower socio-economic strata. Like divide and conquer I guess. And by the way I consider myself a religious minority, and grew up with the knowing in the back of my head that peopke hate me just because I was born Jewish, my people were sent to the ovens, and whenever I was in a synagogue I figured if someone wanted to kill a bunch of Jews, there we sat. My father was the son of very very poor immigrants. My husband is Mexican. That one comment I made arguing for possibly not having a United Negro .college Fund for instance was my experience that Jews did their best to conform in America, blend in, and it seems to have been successful overall. I even followed the whole paragraph that maybe I am wrong. I don’t understand why what I wrote caused you to point me out?

@iamthemob great answer.

@JLeslie : Oh gosh, I read your answer wrong. I’m sorry. x__x

@troubleinharlem no problem.

@troubleinharlem

Yes “get away with”. Some of us just refuse to play along but so many just fold when threatened with being called a racist.

This is a form of oppression aimed at non blacks.

What oppression was put on you? Are you from the Congo “Republic”. I’ve not oppressed anyone.

Japanese Americans were interred during WW2. Families were separated during a frightening time. I don’t hear them bitching for “justice” (reparations, a different set of rules etc.).

@MeinTeil Do you feel the same about the Jewish Federation or The Hispanic Business Association? Do you think no one should have a group designation, or just that white people should be allowed to have white groups?

@MeinTeil – No one has discussing reparations. Very different thing. However…(1) the Japanese internment was also a profoundly sad part of our history, but it was over the period of three years, not three centuries, and they were not the focus of institutional racism following that to the regulatory extent of black men and women, and (2) billions in reparations were, in fact, paid to internment victims.

That…is the difference.

@troubleinharlem – Wow. The same thing happened the last time. That’s…wow…apparently I’m 2 and 0 on that guy.

@MeinTeil Maybe you personally haven’t oppressed anyone, but minorities still don’t have as much opportunity as white people. It is slowly changing, but there are many things that still need to be changed. As a woman, I “bitch” about the current inequality that many women have to face head-on, but I suppose you think all is well in that regard, too, since it wasn’t specifically you that discriminated against me and other women?

Lemme tell you… If you want a list of the inequality I’ve faced as a female, I will gladly provide it. It might take a while to compile though, just so we’re clear…

I agree with @iamthemob that reperations, even affirmative action, is very different than clubs and pageants.

@DrasticDreamer : You go, girl.
@MeinTeil : Japanese Americans were interred during WW2. Families were separated during a frightening time. I don’t hear them bitching for “justice” (reparations, a different set of rules etc.).
I don’t think that three years is even close to equaling 200+ years of slavery…

I, personally, have not been put under much pressure for being an African American (and no, I’m not from the Congo, for your information. My mum is Bahamian and my father is from… Philadelphia, but his ancestors are from somewhere in Africa, but there aren’t any records because no one cared where the slaves came from as long as they worked).
But I was saying that people in my family have gone through oppression and prejudice because of their skin color.
How is it an oppression that you as a Caucasian are the majority in population, wealth, stability, health, and education? Where is the oppression in that?
This isn’t about race, its about equality.

This isn’t a perfect world, unfortunately, and even though we would like for everything to be equal, it obviously isn’t going to be that way. We have to make do with what we can, and with the people that we have here in the world.

One question that occurred to me is let’s say everything is equal, then do we still want or think it is ok to have Ms. Black America and Alma Awards, and the Jewish Federation? I’m thinking people still would.

@DrasticDreamer I know that “racism is only racism when someone white does it. Everything else is payback for the whole slavery thing.” is bullshit but well done for spotting it. It was meant as a retort to the OP’s sugestion that the “Miss black US” and the college fund could be used as a defence for promting a white supremacist pageant or whatever.

For some reason, an Irish parade queen for St Patrick’s Day or a “Miss Little Italy ” pageant only ‘open to Italian American women’ doesn’t cause a stir.

But Miss Black America makes people angry. I wonder what the difference is?

No I don’t

^Blacks exploit it and never let you forget about it like no other group.

And thank god if they do…because it should never be forgotten.

It should be saved for history class.

Every child gets a chip to place on their shoulder.

@iamthemob Not forgetting the past and using it are two different things. You know I lean towards the side of supporting minorities, but eventually the minority themselves have to start acting as though they are really equal, even if society is not doing that perfectly. Of course most blacks do act as all things are equal, but I do think too often African Americans are raised thinking the world is against them, and I thinkit isnbad for their psyche. I grew up knowing there were times in history that people enslaved and killed my people, but I do notlive every day watching out for. I was raised thinking Ihad as much shot as anyone in America to do what I wanted, and I believe the same is pretty much true for everyone here.

The Italian Parade @jaytkay brought up is a celebration of being Italian, and I don’t think Italians are thinking white America does not include us so we will have our own thing. I think people view a black organization or parade (is there African American Parades?) as being a statement that they are not included in white America. Maybe? It’s almost like African Americans are not part of the melting pot or something? That the black people themselves aren’t feelin’ it. I know plenty of black people who do feel very American, and that they have every opportunity possible in America, I don’t want to generalize, but I am kind of.

(1) It should never be the responsibility of a minority to act like things are okay if they aren’t.

(2) It is not outrageous for frustration to be expressed by a minority that was legally separated until just forty years ago.

(3) To ask them to quiet down is to end up with people like @MeinTeil in our society.

I get what you’re saying, @JLeslie – however, my comment was more directed at @MeinTeil‘s drastic oversimplification of the issue. A historically and currently under-represented class complaining about the situation, even when they are those who are so solely because of their own actions, doesn’t hamper the privileged class from enjoying the privilege.

The Italian Parade @jaytkay brought up is a celebration of being Italian

And Miss Black America is a celebration of…? Think about what you wrote there.

is there African American Parades?

The Bud Billiken Parade is bigger than the Rose Bowl Parade but I guess they aren’t real Americans and are just expressing how “the world is against them” and how they “aren’t feelin’” the melting pot thing. Chilling. It’s a miles-long “lynch whitey” party.

Yes, that is sarcasm in case it isn’t clear.

http://cdn.wn.com/pd/02/ee/56b47e3a8093afa33d809610fbd4_grande.jpg
http://www.clusterflock.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/defender_span-580x338.jpg
http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2010-08/55552411.jpg
http://www.shutterbug.com/images/archivesart/0608picture10.jpg

@jaytkay : The pageant is us celebrating the beauty of black women, because for so long it wasn’t even given to us. We have had to tell ourselves – now its getting better with a lot of beautiful black women in the media (see this list of the 25 most beautiful black women in history).

That’s why we have a black women beauty pageant.

@jaytkay Were you adressing me? I was kind of asking African Americans where their minds are at when they see Miss Black America? Or, an African American Parade. Is it a reminder, in a negative way, of the history behind them? Or, is it simply a celebration like all the other parades and things we mentioned? I ask with an open mind, from a place of not knowing. I don’t have a prejudgement.

I’ve never seen an African American parade before… I don’t think that they exist.

@JLeslie : It’s almost like African Americans are not part of the melting pot or something? That the black people themselves aren’t feelin’ it.

Maybe… I don’t know, I’m just brainstorming here. Maybe its because they’ve been hurt for so long that they don’t really trust the opportunities they have because they might get taken advantage of (or something).

@troubleinharlem I’ve never seen an African American parade before… I don’t think that they exist.

Here you go
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Billiken_Parade_and_Picnic

@jaytkay : Cool. ^^
The second largest annual parade? Geez!

I think that you expressed it best and most simply in the beginning, @troubleinharlem – it’s about “black love.”

These events are about love and pride. It’s about saying that there’s something different about being black in America (or gay, or a woman, etc.) than it is to be part of the class of the “founding fathers.” That we’ve gone through something that we want everyone, including ourselves, to remember.

Asking why white people (or straight people, or men) don’t have that is, essentially, a statement that there’s some form of oppression against that community and that they need to express pride for themselves because they’ve been told now there is something wrong with them by someone stronger than themselves in the U.S.

These events are about celebrating our diversity. They are meant to give the minority a visible figure to look up to, a visible way to show them opportunity where mainstream advertising and entertainment emphasizes whiteness, straightness, maleness. Asking for a white etc. version of these celebrations is suggesting that the majority doesn’t have powerful or pervasive enough role models. That’s not necessarily racist…but it is ignorant.

We all live together and are part of America, but the experience of America is different for minority groups. It’s not a melting pot – my history books from over a decade ago used the metaphor of the salad bowl.

@iamthemob : I’ll tell my mum that you liked her answer. XD

@troubleinharlem That is my worry. A friend of mine says that Tuskegee still lives in the minds of Black Memphians, so I would guess that is true across the south, and other reasons to not trust.

My black friends (do you prefer African American?) who are very successful, and they are very successful, I don’t think they dwell on being black at all. I mean, they are in touch with it, feel it is part of their identity, but in terms of career and how they interact with others, it is like a non-issue. One of my close friends is 4th generation African American great granddaughter of slave/slave owner. And, the other came here as a teen from the caribbean 25 years ago.

I have had African Americans tell me how they have no records of their ancestors, little knowledge of their families. Well, same for me. The majority of my family came to America from Russia and Latvia. They lived there during intense antisemitism, during the Pogroms. My paternal grandfather’s generation, all of his siblings came to America, is very fractured. I am now trying to find some of my cousins, a very very hard task. I have no real idea of what life was like for them in Russia and Latvia, except that it was very hard, and they were very very poor, and suffered incredible difficulties and cruelty. I don’t see how it is much different than black people in America to be honest. But, what I do have is a great pride of my country, of America. I think it gives me confidence. I grew up with my dad saying America is paradise for the Jews. Even though there was some antisemitism in our country, what we knew was the constitution protected us under religious freedom. All men created equal. If you work hard you can succeed. The American dream.

I am not trying to compete African American past to Jewish past, I am just saying it seems similar to me in the sense that looking to the future instead of dwelling on the past might be more productive. We should never forgot, but the lessons are for history books, and to watch for signs that it is happening again, not to be in our daily thoughts. In my opinion.

@JLeslie : Nah, black is cool. I say black more than African American… because technically, I’m mostly Bahamian. And good points.

@iamthemob Here’s the thing. I never really think about the fact that I am white. I guess maybe because whites are divided up into many subgroups? Or, maybe because we are the majority here? My friends from the caribbean don’t really fully identify with black Americans who have been here for generations. They seem to assume the average Joe in America sees them as black, like other black Americans, but they do not feel that inside, because they identify more with their home country, and of course as Americans.

@JLeslie – It’s mostly because we are in the majority. When you are part of a group that is defined as the other, it can’t help be what people think about.

When I first moved to NYC, I worked in Harlem. I’ve never been more aware of my own whiteness, where before it was something that I thought about little. And it had very little to do with the way that I was treated – it was solely the fact that I was aware of my difference as there were many more “unlike” me than “like” me.

You’ll notice it also when people talk about race. When people say racist, they more often mean and people often think of the prejudices directed at the racial minority due to race. Racism directed at whites in America is referred to as reverse-racism, because people who are white often don’t think about the experience of whiteness in America as it is the majority standard.

And women are in the majority in the U.S., but have been citizens for not even a century, and are the significant minority in the professional and high-level workforce. Therefore, they are a social minority regardless of their numbers.

There’s nothing wrong with being proud to be white. However, there is a necessity for the minority to publicly express the pride because it makes it more normal, and more visible.

@iamthemob I agree being a minority can feel awkward, or at minimum one can feel very aware of how they are different. Although, I am often the minority in a way. I don’t care if I am the only Jew, or the only non-Hispanic in a room or at a party. I really think it only becomes very very apparent when people act, speak, and think much differently. I also think socio-economics plays a huge part in how we connect and identify with people. I really feel skin color dissapears, and other xenophobias, when people are similar in mind.

I was talking to a black man here in Memphis who really puts a lot of thought into race relations, and he feels black people have to conform to what white people say is the right way. How to dress, how to style one’s hair, how to speak, and more. I don’t see it as race related at all. I see it having everything to do with social class.

@JLeslie – It is absolutely complicated, you’re right. It’s a mix, and anyone who says it’s because of anything alone is simplifying the issue.

I I had my way all affirmitive action and all things favoring a particular race would be outlawed. All of it.

Will you use HTML color codes to define who goes to which pageant? Or DNA screening? What happens to people who go to a tanning salon? Where to draw the line?

@Mikewlf337 : Why?

@mattbrowne : HTML < People. They used to use skin color for DNA and blood tests, but they don’t anymore. Who cares if a black person goes to a tanning salon? Maybe they want to test theories on skin cancer or something, that’s none of our business, really.

@troubleinharlem Why Not?

@Mikewlf337 : I’ve already shown my part of the argument, but you haven’t – thus, I’ll ask again. Why?

@mattbrowne @troubleinharlem I thought the designation of black, or negro vs. caucasian, technically is about facial features more than actual skin color? In the broad definition or anthropological definition anyway. Someone can be very light skinned and still be Black. I remember being a little girl watching Sanford and Son, and I thought the dad was a white guy, because his skin was light.

All this mess will go away as the country gets browner and browner I think. And, I do not mean Hispanics, I mean as there is more mixing and more diversity in general.

@JLeslie : Maybe… I mean, from my perspective (as a sort of caramel/nutmeg black person), light blacks aren’t necessarily treated the same as “black blacks” (as in, straight-out-of-Africa-black). It isn’t necessarily facial features (although that may be a part of it) – I think its mostly the skin tone that someone has.

I think that we should just all mix together until we’re all khaki.

@JLeslie – My point was pageants should be about people without segregation based on ethnic origin.

@mattbrowne – The benefit of having pageants for those from historically oppressed ethnic backgrounds isn’t about segregation – it’s about celebration.

It’s not “us against them” it’s “look how great we are now.”

Reaction against that from many (not saying you) reveals a discomfort with minority pride. They should just “keep it in the bedroom.”

@troubleinharlem In America there are, or at least there were, rules like half black half white, the person is black, and one eighth Native America, you can still qualify for stuff Native Americans get from the government, polynesian takes all, so half polynesian half black you are classified as polynesian. All kinds of bullshit in my opinion.

I have had a discussion regarding light skinned black people vs dark skinned black people with this guy who is into race relations, and what I told him was in my opinion black people dwell on how light or dark a black person is, not white people.

@iamthemob – You got a point here. But why have an African-American pageant when beautiful African-American women can win the American title?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caressa_Cameron

And Cameron is the eighth African-American woman to hold the prestigious title.

If it meant that there was equality between black, or other ethnic minorities, and white in a mainstream standard of beauty and success, then there would be no point. But it doesn’t.

If there wasn’t a need to have a national representative to show minorities that despite the overwhelmingly white standard of beauty that what makes them different is beautiful too, then there would be no point.

If having a mixed-race president showed that blacks could achieve the same level of success that whites did, there would be no point in arguing for protections against racism in employment and the law. But it doesn’t.

The need for positive minority role models in various areas, regardless of nominal access to integrated titles, is profound whenever there is prejudice against the minority.

@iamthemob – Makes sense, yes.

@troubleinharlem Everybody should have equal rights right?. Well that means no special treatment either.

@Mikewlf337 – Affirmative action is not meant to “favor” one race or another, but to repair a system which had been tainted with a discriminatory effect:

Affirmative action is the set of public policies and initiatives designed to help eliminate past and present discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Originally, civil rights programs were enacted to help African Americans become full citizens of the United States.

- The Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution made slavery illegal; the Fourteenth Amendment guarantees equal protection under the law; the Fifteenth Amendment forbids racial discrimination in access to voting.

- The 1866 Civil Rights Act guarantees every citizen “the same right to make and enforce contracts… as is enjoyed by white citizens… ”

- In 1896, the Supreme Court’s decision in Plessy v. Ferguson upheld a “separate, but equal” doctrine that proved to be anything but equal for African Americans. The decision marked the end of the post-Civil War reconstruction era as Jim Crow laws spread across the South.

- In 1941, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed Executive Order 8802 which outlawed segregationist hiring policies by defense-related industries which held federal contracts. Roosevelt’s signing of this order was a direct result of efforts by Black trade union leader, A. Philip Randolph.

- During 1953 President Harry S. Truman’s Committee on Government Contract Compliance urged the Bureau of Employment Security “to act positively and affirmatively to implement the policy of nondiscrimination . . . .”

- The 1954 Supreme Court decision in Brown v. Board of Education overturned Plessy v. Ferguson.

- The actual phrase “affirmative action” was first used in President John F. Kennedy’s 1961 Executive Order 10925 which requires federal contractors to “take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin.” The same language was later used in Lyndon Johnson’s 1965 Executive Order 11246.

- In 1967, Johnson expanded the Executive Order to include affirmative action requirements to benefit women.

- Other equal protection laws passed to make discrimination illegal were the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Title II and VII of which forbid racial discrimination in “public accommodations” and race and sex discrimination in employment, respectively; and the 1965 Voting Rights Act adopted after Congress found “that racial discrimination in voting was an insidious and pervasive evil which had been perpetuated in certain parts of the country through unremitting and ingenious defiance of the Constitution.”

Much of the opposition to affirmative action is framed on the grounds of so-called “reverse discrimination and unwarranted preferences.” In fact, less than 2 percent of the 91,000 employment discrimination cases pending before the Equal Employment Opportunities Commission are reverse discrimination cases. Under the law as written in Executive Orders and interpreted by the courts, anyone benefiting from affirmative action must have relevant and valid job or educational qualifications.

@troubleinharlem wrote, “I think that we should just all mix together until we’re all khaki.” That’s got my vote. The Caribbean islands where that’s already happened have some of the most beautiful people on Earth as their inhabitants.

@JLeslie There were a flurry of recent studies of children in preschool programs and kindergarten. They were shown drawings of children having differing skin colors and asked which child is most popular, most honest, nicest… Invariably, they picked the whitest one as having all the positive attributes. It made no difference whether they were white, black or Asian. They all preferred the whiter drawings.
Here
And here
To list a few.

@ETpro that study was done a long time ago also, I did not know they have repeated it. Why do you think that is still true? Do you blame the media? The child’s experience? That white people are the majority around the kids? Or, maybe the children feel they are expected to say the white kids? Are the people giving the test white?

@JLeslie – There are way to many factors at work to separate out what would be a precise cause.

A similar study, and the problems associated revealed, was done very recently with the same results.

But, aside from all of that, I ask, looking at how race is discussed and portrayed generally, in private and public, in daily life and the media, would the results that children generally perceive white as “better” be surprising?

@iamthemob I agree with your article about the problems with asking kids questions, that is what I meant by saying the kids might feel they are expected to answer white as a preference. And, I also wonder if there is a difference between how children answer if they were a minority themselves in a classroom or if they were part of a majority? I saw an Oprah where a woman was very upset the father of her child was very dark, and that her child might be dark, and he was born with very dark skin. Bitch. She had her kid all fucked up in thinking he was inferior to lighter skinned black people. People in the audience and Oprah all tried to reassure him that once he left for college, he was in his late teens, his experience would change drastically for the better. That his current African American world might be full of that thinking, but not everyone thinks that way. When I hear stuff like that I just think a kid doesn’t have a chance. Bad enough children can be cruel, as mentioned in your link, cruel not only about race, but every other thing possible, but to have your parents and family thinking you are inferior and less attractive really sucks.

The same show had Asians obsessed with their eyelids. I can barely see any difference in their eyelids when they get surgery, or are born with the eyelids they idealize. That is more within their own culture than done by the outside world, or white people, in my opinion.

The guy I mentioned who is very interested in race was complaining to me his wife hates perming her hair, and it is some white ideal that she has to try to meet to be acccepted. Bullshit. It is social class more than anything, and I have never heard a white person, never, be critical of a black person who has a fro or a more natural look. I know a very dark black girl who has her hair very full and wavy, she has a petit build, she is simply beautiful, and in my opinion very African American looking. Blair Underwood is beautiful, pretty much everyone thinks so, and he is fairly dark. What we do criticize is assymetrical hairdos, and we criticize it on white people to. Look at Kate Gosselin, people went on and on about her reverse mullet, no one on 5th avenue has that hair cut. And my experience is people I know who live in countries that a predominantly black, there seems to be a difference between hairstyles and clothing for the wealthy compared to the poor, and then I am back to social class, not black and white.

@JLeslie : And, I also wonder if there is a difference between how children answer if they were a minority themselves in a classroom or if they were part of a majority?

I couldn’t find the article (I’ll ask my mom), but there was one where they just did the experiment with black children to see what they would say. These were children from positive black homes (the professors, teachers, scientists all sent their kids and they were all black), and of course they promoted positive aspects of black culture, but the children still pointed out the black person as the “bad” one.

@troubleinharlem Wow. Kinda sad. Something has to change if that is the case. And, I believe you about the study. I am not questioning what you are saying, just thinking it all through.

@iamthemob Thanks for the link. That’s what I was looking for, but could not find.

@JLeslie I saw the CNN series, I am guessing. I tried to find a link to it, but failed earlier. Given the memory nudge from @iamthemob, I found this.

You know what I don’t care what you all say. It’s bullshit that one race can have their special treatments and not the others. It is racist to have a black college fund. It is racist to have black miss america pageant. Affirmitive action is outdated and needs to be done away with. You can’t call a race equal and then give them special treatment.

@Mikewlf337 – you also can’t call a race equal and have the members on average earn less, live in poorer areas, get worse education…etc., etc.

Equality is a goal, not a fact. Affirmative action is far from outdated – do you have anything to support an assertion that it is?

@iamthemob I forgot. The rich white man keeps the poor black man down. I have seen these poor areas. They tried to fix up one particular area and they quickly destroyed whatever they repaired. Gang violence keeps people from going into these communities and therefore keeps the area poor. Arby’s couldn’t even keep their business there because the constantly got robbed. A couple has 7 kids when they couldnt afford to raise one therefore they go on welfare. Poor area means poor schools therefore they get worse education. The areas are poor because of the actions of those who live there. No way in hell would I ever set up shop in a place that I was sure I was going to get robbed. Nobody would. Why? so they can go out of business or killed because they kept getting robbed? It’s poor community’s fault why they live in a poor area. How is that the government’s fault when the people living their wont behave? It’s all bullshit. I’m not saying all black people behave this way. I’m saying that these poor areas are kept that way by the people who live their. City governments have tried to fix them up but the fine find people of the community tend destoy any repairs.
All the blacks that don’t live those areas don’t have anything keeping them down. Why? because they don’t live in the shitholes that were created by the people living in these shitholes. Why is that? They didn’t use affirmitive action. They got off their asses and got jobs. This isn’t the 60s and racism is frowned apon. A black person can find a good paying job. Affirmitive action is bullshit.

@Mikewlf337 – Why are we going from inequality to the reasons for inequality being some grand conspiracy of the white man.

Saying that poor communities are kept poor by the people who live there, though, is just as ridiculous. There are multiple causal factors here. A person’s circumstances are not always caused by his or her choices alone. Someone may want to “get off his ass” and get a job, but be prevented in some way. The problem, of course, is that it’s less likely to be a successful venture the less well off the person is.

Please realize also that in order to benefit from any affirmative action program the employer must be a government entity. Private employers are not subject to affirmative action regulations. Jobs in the public sector may also give preference to veterans. Finally, the person must meet the job qualifications – indicating that those benefiting from any preference are already employable, and therefore not the people you seem to reference here.

Also, growing up in an area that is subjected to violence, what is the most likely outcome? You take part in the violence. Not because you’re lazy, but because it might be necessary for your survival, or may be all that you even understand.

Regardless of whether or not it’s better isn’t the issue. Progress is not success. Even with affirmative action in place, white men still get 93% of all government contract dollars, hold over 90% of top jobs and 85% of tenured professorships. Also, it doesn’t seem that “less qualified people” are getting the jobs, as comprehensive analysis of over 200 studies on the work performance of affirmative action beneficiaries, published a few years ago in the Journal of Economic Literature, found that said beneficiaries performed just as well and often better than their white male counterparts. Disturbingly, a recent study found that job applicants with white-sounding names are fifty percent more likely to be called in for an interview than those with black-sounding names, even when the applicants are of identical qualifications.

In the end, it doesn’t seem that affirmative action hasn’t done anything to prevent business as usual, and if it does have a beneficiary, that beneficiary appears to perform admirably.

So…what is it that you have a problem with in terms of affirmative action or minority-focused events?

@iamthemob I guess those black people who do find jobs are just a bunch of flukes. I guess obama winning the presidency was just a fluke. I mean not only is he black but he has a muslim name. To make things more interesting his middle name is Hussien. I guess that was just a fluke as well. Now that I mention it. I hear people call people racist when they don’t agree with Obama. Mostly from black people. Yeah black people are so held back. Say a racist thing and you will be a social pariah. Say a racist thing in a workplace and you will be fired. I guess that all is just because people are forced to enforce it. Racism is dying and everyone will agree with that. People are not turned of on black names when hiring people. You can’t proove that they are. Who said less qualifying people are getting the jobs. My friend hired a black man and that man couldn’t do his job. So my friend fired the black man and got sued for it. The black man won. I guess you think since I said this from my mouth instead of posting it as a link as you so love to do you will think I am just lying. Taking part in gang violence is not a necessity and just because you live in a gang ridden bad nieghborhood doesn’t mean that you have to join them. They do it because their families are so shitty that they get a feeling of family in the gang. When the city tries to repair a poor area. The people destroy the repairs. Why? To keep down the real estate value so housing will stay cheap. No way anyone can improve the area if they can’t fix it. I guess they don’t want a better neighborhood to live in. Not to mention you can’t have nice things in those areas because someone will steal it.
These studies are not writtin in stone. Who knows how accurate they really are. you can’t come to absolute conclussion because someone could have written a biased study on something. How do you know that these people where even qualified for the job? You don’t you can’t go over every application that has been filled out in the United States and until you can you can’t come to the conlusion that weren’t hired because they were black.

@iamthemob Only government has to deal with affirmative action laws? Did the law change? It used to be all business over a certain size, or was that just quotas? Certainly all cimpanies worry about EEOC, but that is slightly different but similar. Last I remember certain states are challenging affirmative action laws, but it is still legal in most states. I might be misinformed though.

@Mikewlf337 So @iamthemob can’t come to absolute conclusions about things that have been studied, hundreds, if not thousands of times, but you can? Based on nothing other than your opinion alone?

I find it interesting that you think people, who live in poor areas, are all the same. Your comments show that you know nothing about institutionalized racism – which does still exist. Your comments show that you know nothing or very little about how much people are influenced by the environments they grow up in (you included).

@Mikewlf337 – You can’t criticize the studies I’ve cited and then make absolute statements as proof on your end. I’m saying the issue is still complicated. You’re bringing up bad experiences in your life to show that things are messed up universally. On the affirmative action tip, I suggest you read this.

It is not true that if you say a racist thing you will automatically become a social pariah. If that were true, of course, no one would say racist things, and all the racists would be gone.

It is not true that if you say a racist thing you will automatically be fired. If that were the case, there would be no EEOC investigations.

I am sure that people throw the racist card and manipulate the system. I don’t think you’re lying. It just doesn’t prove anything – it’s anecdotal.

I suggest you read some on what you think the problems are from both sides.

@JLeslie – The executive order is definitely used to put pressure on private employers at times, and private employers seeking government contracts might be subject to some regulation. But affirmative action started in conjunction with the 1964 Civil Rights Act as an attempt to correct for the past discrimination in government employment which was a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. It’s often difficult (although not impossible by a longshot) to regulate how private industry runs its business internally – the Constitution was meant to limit that kind of stuff – in theory at least (I know I know – I’m not making the claim that the fed government doesn’t, at times, find it’s way around that).

I agree with @Mikewlf337 in so far as ” It’s bullshit that one race can have their special treatments and not others. It is racist to have a black college fund. It is racist to have a black Miss America (and not a White, or other, equivalent) pageant…..you can’t call a race equal and then give them special treatment”.. I agree, and I am not racist.

My statement regarding the importance of minority-focused support systems:

If there was equality between black, or other ethnic minorities, and white in a mainstream standard of beauty and success, then there would be no point to having something along the lines of a Miss Black America, or the black college fund. But there isn’t.

Minorities need to have a national representative to show minorities that despite the overwhelmingly white standard of beauty that what makes them different is beautiful too, then there would be no point.

I wonder how you ‘majority’ (white?) commentators would react it you were in somewhere like Nigeria. What would your status be then? Minor?

Context Context Context.

@lloydbird – I don’t see the applicability. Yes, we’re all in the minority somewhere. But that doesn’t mean that we’d automatically be part of an institutionally oppressed minority, wherever that was.

@iamthemob You know, you probably would be (South Africa, Zimbabwe). It is about the context and the numbers.

@lloydbird women get a protected status also, and they are not a minority in numbers.

@lloydbird – and no one’s really debating that context matters. It doesn’t seem to comment on the issues in the previous posts…

@iamthemob Maybe it should.

@iamthemob If everything was equal is having a Black Miss America pageant saying blacks have to compete against blacks? Think about it. Black women are just as beautiful as white women. As of late broader more exotic features seemed to be very admired, what is deemed beautiful changes over time anyway.

@all I don’t think @Mikewlf337 is saying all poor people are the same. It is true that places that have been fixed up, communities and schools, sometimes all too fast get ruined again, with vandelism, and without support to maintain, it falls into substandard conditions again. When Rudy Guiliani cleaned up NYC, he maintained a constant battle. He got rid of all the graffiti on the subways, and if new graffiti appeared that train was cleaned within 24 hours. People hanging around up to know good were questioned, ID’ed, he was persistent, and eventually things turned around. Not just because of this, I am sure there were other factors, but it was part of the equation.

And, I have to say, poor people having a bunch of children they cannot afford is frustrating. I would never deny a person their right to have a child, and growing up poor should not be something to feel shame about, but money does give you advantages in America, whether it should be that way or not, and if someone wants their children to have every advantage, having many kids means each one has less.

To me what is most disturbing is the violence in poor areas, it is an embarrassment of our country. Being poor should not mean you have to live unsafely. Growing up in a war-like zone is not good for mental stability. Feeling secure, safe, is such a big deal for not only children, but adults too.

@JLeslie

Guliani gets a lot of credit for cleaning up NYC that he might very well not deserve. Unfortunately, Dinkins was hurt by the perception that crime was out of control during his administration, although rates of most crimes, including all categories of violent crime, made consecutive declines during the last 36 months of his four-year term, decisively ending a 30 year upward spiral and initiating a trend of falling rates that continued well beyond his term. Dinkins also initiated a hiring program that expanded the police department nearly 25%.

It’s more than likely that Guliani rode on the coattails of that success – and because he literally cleaned things up, it looked like he was doing the work. However, studies have discredited the ‘Broken Windows’ theory employed by Guliani in terms of its effectiveness in preventing major crimes..

Granted, I like the city clean as it is. However, the fact that we just assumed that what he was doing was causing the decline ignored what was already in place, and allowed him to invade a whole lot of our civil rights “for our own good.”

Fixing up these places is great and all – but it’s the underlying social structures that we need to concentrate on – education in particular.

@iamthemob I was only really commenting on cleaning up the place, not so much the crime. If you have read Freakanomics, they credit a downtick in crime on abortion being legal. I am sure there are multiple factors, as I stated, for the clean up being affective, and for that matter the crime going down. But, my main point was if there is not money or attention to keep things maintained, things look like crap again. Even in middle class areas things need to be maintained, or eventually things get broken down. The poor don’t have money to maintain things at the same level communities with more money do.

Personally, I think children overall have too little respect for other people’s property, and adults also for that matter, as a general statement. I think this has changed over time for the worse at every part of the social strata.

Oh now were getting into politics. LMAO stupid liberal bullshit. I’m unfollowing.

@Mikewlf337 – I think the thread will be decidedly better for it.

Unfortunately, I believe that you will be decidedly worse for it.

What politics? Just because we brought up a city mayor or two? For me it had nothing to do with their party. I cited Guiliani for doing some good, and I am a Democrat.

Indeed. @JLeslie brought up a policy. I critiqued the policy.

That is politics, but in the broadest issue-based sense. Technically, under that concept, @Mikewlf337 has been talking politics this whole time.