General Question

amazonstorm's avatar

Ethics of Software Piracy?

Asked by amazonstorm (545points) November 30th, 2010

Now, I am fully aware that this may begin a heated debate, but I feel I must ask.

What is everyone’s opinions on pirating software? I mean, do you think it’s right or that it’s totally wrong or that maybe there are exceptions? Do you believe that it’s ethically right to pirate some software and not others?

Inquiring minds want the opinion of the collective.

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29 Answers

john65pennington's avatar

Bottomline: its a federal offense to steal off the internet. the end.

MyNewtBoobs's avatar

@john65pennington But it’s important to remember that “federal offense” simply means that the law was created by the federal government, not state or local. A federal law isn’t inherently any more serious than all other laws; seriousness depends entirely on the specific law.
Just because something is currently illegal doesn’t mean we can’t have a spirited debate about if it should be, or what it would be like if that law were repealed.

zenvelo's avatar

It’s wrong to not pay for a product that somebody created, perfected, and took the time to manufacture and market. It doesn’t matter if it’s a wheelbarrow, a car, a book, or an app from the app store.

That being said, the penalty should be proportional. That is why I am opposed to the RIAA in it’s efforts to win thousands of dollars in penalty awards for downloading a song.

marinelife's avatar

It is wrong. There is no gray area. By pirating software, you are stealing.

ragingloli's avatar

You keep the torrent on for a while to give other’s a chance to load. Do not be a lowly leecher.
Otherwise, information is free. (one of my libertarian positions)

marinelife's avatar

@ragingloli Do you consider the fruits of your labor to be free for the taking? Do you work for nothing?

mrlaconic's avatar

I used to pirate and I didn’t have a problem with it. I still don’t have a problem with it, but I don’t pirate anything anymore.

I don’t need to illegally download windows because ubuntu is free and honestly runs better
I dont need to download photoshop because I can use sumopaint which is also free and is just as powerful
I dont need to download MP3’s because with services like grooveshark I can listen to any song I want on the fly.

ragingloli's avatar

@marinelife
To be honest, many times I was paid for my work only happened because it was offered to me.
Had the other party not offered it, I would have done it for free. I just like doing things, and as long as my bases are covered, their happiness and gratitude (as well as the confirmation of my own awesome skill) is sufficient to me.

FrogOnFire's avatar

I think both sides are wrong. Copyright laws have become stronger than they were ever meant to be (the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, for example) and the RIAA, MPAA, and other such organizations have made it a strategy to “make an example of” people who pirate music/movies by fining them large sums of money. Also, DRM, usage restrictions, and DVDs chock-full of (un-skippable) previews have led consumers to demand forms of content that are versatile and convenient (most pirated movies can play on any device and don’t contain all those annoying previews).

On the other hand, many consumers think they’re getting revenge on the overpaid artists by stealing content, but what they don’t realize is that the artists are going to get paid no matter what. By pirating, we’re hurting the people at the bottom of the pyramid. Maybe a minimum-wage-paid single mother who works for the record company will be laid off due to lost revenue from piracy.

FrogOnFire's avatar

@FrogOnFire Whoops…I didn’t see the word “Software.” It’s early…

the100thmonkey's avatar

I generally prefer open source alternatives to closed source software for the reason @ragingloli cites above – information should be free, even if it isn’t always.

wundayatta's avatar

I think many people work for “free.” Mostly small organizations—individuals, bands, writers who publish online. It is only the major publishers who are working to enforce copyright law. They have to report to stockholders and maximize profit.

I don’t know. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture?

gorillapaws's avatar

Stealing from indie developers is the moral equivalent of taking money out of the panhandler’s cup. The vast majority of these guys are just trying to scrape by doing something they love. It’s the American dream to start up a small business and build it from the ground up providing a service to society. I know several indie Mac developers and they pour their blood/sweat/tears into their products for their customers, and really try to go above and beyond to make their users happy. Stealing from these guys who are trying to make enough selling indie software so they can quit their day-jobs and still feed their families is absolutely disgusting.

Also, most of these guys are incredibly understanding if you’re poor, a charity organization, or a student they will typically give you a generous discount. And if that’s still too expensive for you, some developers have been known to give out free software in exchange for an honest product review with a link to their site. It never hurts to ask, and it is the right thing to do.

Ron_C's avatar

Just imagine, you built a house with materials you purchased and assembled with your own hands and just when everything is completed to your satisfaction; you are pushed aside and someone else moves in. Software is no different. What gives you the right to use the fruit of someone’s labor without his permission?

RareDenver's avatar

If someone took the time, expertise and skill to manufacture a product and has decided to trade that product for money we should respect that decision and pay for the product. If we think they are overcharging we can tell them that but just because something exists it doesn’t mean we all have the right to own it. If it did I would have had that luxury yacht and seafront property in Thailand a long time ago.

YARNLADY's avatar

Pirating is a euphemism for stealing, plain and simple.

MyNewtBoobs's avatar

@YARNLADY It’s not a euphemism. It’s a synonym. Pirates don’t act like they’re not stealing, they just have better vocab to describe it.

ratboy's avatar

@Ron_C: Your analogy is lame. If, say, a high school student downloads Photoshop, what Adobe has lost is not something tangible like the occupancy of a house. It is the putative revenue that the corporation would have gained in the unlikely event that he had purchased the program.

MyNewtBoobs's avatar

@ratboy Indeed. If it’s an over-the-air download, it costs no more to make one copy than a million.

YARNLADY's avatar

@papayalily Most people think of piracy as a game, as in talk like a pirate day and dressing their kids up in cute pirate clothes, and watching a silly comedian on the children’s TV show, not as stealing.

MyNewtBoobs's avatar

@YARNLADY I think by the time they’re old enough to pirate anything, they know what it means. Especially with the release of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies.

YARNLADY's avatar

@papayalily Yes, probably so, especially in the commercial version of piracy.

phoebusg's avatar

I stand firmly on the side of information freedom. Anything that can be portrayed as information should be free. It is the single principle I recognize as Greek—not what most consider the fruits of the civilization. Traveling around and exchanging ideas but also improving them for their own sake and sharing them again kick-started western civilization. It wasn’t any one civilization, it was the sharing.

Fast forward into the future. Companies locking down intangible goods and knowledge. This costs everyone so much in terms of development. Save for corporate espionage that does happen, and buy-outs that also happen for the same reason. Acquiring research, but even then it’s too slow to the open source alternative. Nothing beats open, for anyone to use, modify, improve and share again. The sheer speed of development of that system alone benefits everyone. Why? Because you have applications and solutions created exponentially faster—and anyone can do it. Knowledge is power, but furthermore – knowledge is built on previous knowledge. So no one can really say he figured something out from scratch. It’s in the air, it’s in the culture, it’s in the collective. Great minds realize that and know ”[they] stand on shoulders of giants” – the giants are all our forefathers. Each one adding a bit to the collective.

Now we’re stuck on petty ownership claims while we’ve gotten our collective behinds into trouble. We’ve big problems to solve – best done through sharing resources and trying different things. There’s many examples of researchers solving each other problem’s even if they follow different approaches. This isn’t as easy to happen if everything is locked down – do not touch.

Same goes for the education systems, universities etc. Although many realize this and open up increasingly more (opencourseware).

As far as the software industry. This is where the above examples are evermore obvious. Especially to anyone who is a programmer. You could go out of your way and create a program from scratch (but even then, you’d depend on the compiler, and some basic libraries). Every library you use is pre-written code someone else has provided. What you’re doing in most cases is providing a new configuration for the functions to work together. Some less creative than others. But do you charge someone for the whole set of libraries you used? Even if your code-addition is a mere 1%? I would say, it depends on the contribution to the core. And I wouldn’t charge myself, but leave it to the users, ask for a donation. Or find a different way to make money – educate people to use it. Which is what most open source platforms do anyway.

When it comes to commercial software from MS, Adobe etc – do you see them complaining about piracy? No. Their software is fairly easy to pirate – because that helps them get a larger market share. Most of the big-business is done on a larger scale. And if everyone thinks a certain system is better, those companies win over the contracts. There’s more points to be made here but this post is already very long.

On the other hand, other software giants like Oracle benefit directly from opensource. And then make millions marketing the same solution under a different name (pretty much). MS and Adobe, and any software giant is using opensource as well.

As a response to some posts above, information is not the same with tangible goods. Some of the reasons are stated above.

gorillapaws's avatar

@phoebusg that sounds nice, but the reality is that indie developers really can’t make a living on donations. I’ve read the stories of many who tried that approach with popular software and ended up going hungry while simultaneously having a very popular app. Authors get to charge for their work, I don’t see why they are so different, simply because what they produce is in paper form.

It is possible to survive on support contracts and other tangential business models related to open-source software, but expecting developers to always release their code for free is like expecting a carpenter to only volunteer for habitat for humanity and to pay his bills by teaching carpentry lessons to people he runs across while working for free. I can think of a lot of really wonderful proprietary indie software that has advanced the industry which would never have been created if it were open-source donation-ware.

I love open source software, I have supported projects in the past, but I think there is certainly an important place for proprietary software in the marketplace as well.

Also, your argument that because something builds on earlier discoveries/technology it has no true value is bullshit. We wouldn’t have any of the tangible goods that we enjoy without building on earlier discoveries like the wheel becoming the cart, becoming the carriage, becoming the train, becoming the automobile, becoming the trailer truck that delivered you the computer you’re using to communicate your opinion on. Why are those physical things inherently valuable when they’re not truly original? Why is a physical product valuable when an intellectual one isn’t?

Ron_C's avatar

Oh, @ratboy it’s o.k. to steal if you’re a high school student instead of and an adult. I guess it is o.k. to steal from a big company like Adobe rather than a small company.

Software, especially video and movie maker suites are very expensive to program and develop. The only way the improvements and changes to the original program is to amortize them. Most of the major software suppliers have student versions. I suggest that the high school er pick up one through his school rather than steal it. Your answer sounds lame, likely you are trying to rationalize your own actions.

phoebusg's avatar

Let’s play devil’s advocate. Although I have really considered this position as well. As demonstrated above, among other things – software too is built upon previous knowledge. In specific, physics, chemistry, but mostly mathematics and logic.

If we are to ascribe credit, and in term financial benefits to all the contributions behind a software package – aside the libraries upon it depends. We’ll end up owing credits and money to a lot of scientists on the way that each contributed a small or larger bit. Scientists all the way to antiquity and before. Given many of them are dead, we’d have to pay their descendants what they were owed. Now, given you have no DNA analysis to calculate exactly the percentage of DNA they share with the contributor, you can generally benefit their overall area.

In other words, we owe Greece, Egypt, Mesopotamia, Iraq, India, Turkey a lot of money/credits. Granted, along the way smaller or medium contributions from all over Europe. Whether it be copernicus, newton—to the modern age. Advances in math (some of which have been uncovered to exist in antiquity – look up Archimedes’s “the method”).

Now, we’re left with the smaller modern day contributions (in the larger scheme), which individuals, companies, universities and researchers actually contributed to the work. Don’t forget, a lot of companies pluck research from an institution, or fund it for the sole purpose of gaining control, and instead of releasing it to the public domain – hold it down. But regardless of the details of this, arbitrary modern system—you have to pay out those contributors as well—especially those ripped off by a capitalist scheme.

How much would you charge for the software—so that it would still sell? Knowing that your contribution is now a fraction of a fraction in the greater scheme? So that you may pay all the royalties to the sources you are using.

I don’t know if you can see it, or sense it—but this paradigm breaks down on its own. There’s no point maintaining it arbitrarily. It’s too bad for the little indie developer, but it’s just as hard to make it as a singer. The only answer is, diversify as the world does—and you’ll be fine. Act like you’re owed a chance to make it as you dreamed you would and the world will swallow you.

Not only you can’t track down every contributor and pay them their royalties, but often ideas originate from different sources that had access to the same information and then made similar conclusions. There are too many examples in history of near-simultaneous inventions – who invented it first? We humans like to do the FAE (fundamental attribution error) all the time. But the truth is, if the information is available to a group of individuals, more or less to the same degree. They have a high chance of following down the same path and making similar conclusions, and they do. So then who do you pay royalties to? Whoever managed to manipulate the media and get the public to think he was the “first” to come up with it?

Then there’s the other issue of information travelling horizontally as well as vertically. That means, that we’ve lost many of the direct sources of inventions or contributions. But that they’ve been picked up by other others, other teachers and communicated horizontally (in the same era/year) across a population. Good luck reversing that.

What this is building up to, is hopefully a realization that everything is collective. Our current arbitrary system is just there because someone greedy set it up, stems from a type of economy and so forth. Just because it was there when we were born, it doesn’t mean it’s the most beneficial system to follow. Or that we shouldn’t question it—or that we shouldn’t diverge and come up with something else.

ratboy's avatar

@Ron_C, I never condoned piracy—I merely pointed out that your analogy is defective. I chose a high school student because ADOBE does not offer discounted software to high school students and the latter are unlikely to be in a position to purchase those products. (I don’t mean to attack ADOBE in particular, I chose ADOBE only because everyone recognizes photoshop.) There is, however, another side to the question: does the fact that something is legal make it also right, fair and moral? Despite having been plundered by pirates for years, software corporations have somehow scraped together enough to purchase legislation legalizing their favorite forms of theft: “licensing” software, indecipherable EULAs, invasive DRM, etc.

Ron_C's avatar

@ratboy I agree that many of the methods for securing software are intrusive and should be changed. We have always, as a country, had patent and copyright laws. The extension of those laws to software and music is the only practical way to encourage innovation and improvement.

I am very familiar with industrial software copyright protections. Honeywell, for instance, gives away its control software with its programmable logic controllers. Allen-Bradley charges $1200 for its normal control logic programming software plus $300 a year for each individual site license. These are two very different approaches to the same genre of software. Allen-Bradley gets away with its “usury” rates because they have a majority share of control systems in the U.S. and Europe. They are also one of the most reliable pieces of equipment.

The point is that I disagree with Allen-Bradley’s approach and try to buy Honeywell systems because they are just as reliable and cost much less to program and maintain. Eventually they two models will converge on a more reasonable approach. This competition would not be possible if the companies were not allowed to protect their patents. I remember when it would cost more than $1000 for the entire Microsoft Office suite. Now I think it costs about $400 for a better product.

You can still buy older versions of popular software at less than half the price of the newer stuff. By the way, why would a high school student need to Photo Shop except to put big breasts on his English teacher?

pageros's avatar

Despite appearances software developers can protect their software. My company was dealing with India customers and from what I know they were overusing our application. That’s the main reason why we’ve started using X-Formation licensing tools. Now our soft is protected from duplicating/downloading/borrowing and installing on any computer. Additionally we’re using online activation solution that provides a centralized license management. I won’t elaborate because it already sounds like advertise lol so if you’re interested check: www.x-formation.com

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