Are men really biologically more aggressive then women or is this nothing more then a social construct?

It is testosterone at work.

Aw, you beat me to it. I was going to ask if they’d ever heard of testosterone. :)

Testosterone. It’s probally more complicated then that but that comes to mind as well I suppose. This link is an interesting read if you have 10 minutes to kill. It’s more about animals however.

Yes, I think they are. Men are genetically programmed to go kill things for food and protection. Women are genetically programmed to protect their offspring (thus others) from those who are genetically programmed to kill things. I wonder how in the world we ever manage to procreate!

I really suggest you read Brainstorm by Jordan-Young to learn more about the very deliberate constructing of ‘sex hormones’ as a concept, the history of endocrinology in America and the debunking of the science of sex differences which generally uses vague connections between behavior in humans and animals studies of something related to specific hormones. Very few people around you and me are any kind of versed on the subject of hormones, development, sexuality, gender identity and trajectories. Anyone who’s making a direct link between testosterone and the supposed higher aggression in men (of which higher incidence of rape in the direction of men to women is not proof, btw) needs to read a bit closer, because the studies out there ‘proving’ this are methodologically murky yet presented as fact. The book I recommend will really inform you on the subject.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Thank you for your informative response.

@Paradox Of course! I’m re-reading this book right now (since much of what you and I are discussing right now is the foundation for my future PhD work) and it’s just excellent.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I’m no expert on gender or biology but I’ve always thought about these issues. It sucks when you’re told to “act” a certain way because you’re a man or woman. All men are “hunters”. That one really gets on my nerves. I would hardly call myself a “hunter” relating to anything in life unless it’s something I want bad enough but I would hardly call myself aggressive. Dam my sisters are probally more aggressive then me.

Personally I have always felt the way a person behaves is due to their own individual personality traits combined with politically correct gender based behaviour being installed into children from the youngest ages. This might not be other peoples opinion on this matter however but that’s my take on this.

@Paradox Well, I agree with you there – I often say ‘if you don’t think gender is socialized, then you don’t need to tell your kids ‘boys don’t play with pink ponies’ or something because their ‘clear, biological’ instinct will win over.’ – no one is yet to take me up on the dare. However, we as parents aren’t the only influence – this is how I, a gender non conforming mother, end up being gendered by my 4 year old (who learns idiotic conclusions from other 4 year olds that do get gendered by their parents) – it’s some kind of twilight zone.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Put some money on that wager, I bet you would get rich. Don’t get me wrong here, I enjoy being a guy. I accept I am physically stronger then most women. I have no problem being considered the “protector”. My biggest complaint here with this gender stereotyping is the fact it goes too far. When we as a society start demonizing guys for being emotional, showing compassion and not being aggressive enough then to me this causes major problems. I think this has a negative effect on women as well. Many women out there today seem like they just need to wait for a guys lead with everything they do in life whether it’s taking an inferior position at a place of employment, dating, relationships or whatever.

Again I accept that men are physically stronger and are physically different from women. I don’t think women should be playing football on guys teams, I don’t think men should be wrestling women. I don’t support putting women in combat either but I think when it comes to the mental side of things this gender stereotyping goes just a little too far.

I’m an avid book reader though I usually read about astronomy, physics and religion. Is that book available on Amazon or something similar. That would be a different type of book for me to read for a change but it sounds interesting.

@Paradox The book is available on Amazon. Another good one is The Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine…I think none of us in the field would ever say differences don’t exist – it’s just how people choose to group them and the conclusions they form thereafter…let me give you a quote from Brainstorm…Jordan-Young writes,

“The point is not to say that there are no sex differences in behavior or cognitive skills; on average, when large groups of people are involved, there do seem to be some small but real sex differences (though this does not mean these differences are innate). The point, instead, is that the nature of differences between the sexes is such that it is misleading to talk about ‘male-type’ or ‘female-type’ cognitive patterns, even though it is currently popular to do so. There is simply too much overlap between the sexes, and too much variation in traits and skills within each sex, for that sort of categorical reference to be meaningful.”

This is also my own take on things.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Thank for the book recommendations. I will defintely check them out. Time to hit the sack for me.

@Paradox NIght!

@Paradox – I have met men who would be totally and utterly out of place in a combat situation and women who would fit right in. Let those who have the mental and physical capacity to be warriors have the job and not force it on one group and deny the other. There are some big strong women out there and some small weak men, to say anything else is another stereotype.

As for sports as long as there are pathetic women who think playing a sport in their lingerie is a good thing to do, it is hard for another to be taken seriously. I am a tennis player and have whomped many men on the court often to their chagrin because I am not a big woman. But it will be a while before women believe they can compete. The first to compete and win will probably be distance runners, swimmers and other noncombative sports. The day is coming!!!

For now – yes. As @Simone_De_Beauvoir mentions, though…it’s up in the air whether the biology adapts to our social expectation that boys and men be more aggressive.

I think men are stereotyped and have to live up to that image. I am female and love nothing better than a man to show his ‘softer’ side by show his emotions. Some people may find this a feminine thing to do, but I really appreciate it when my SO acts in this ‘feminine’ way.

Also I don’t think many men would want to admit that they lived with a partner who hit and continually bullied them. They would be laughed at. That again would go against man being the ‘strongest’.
I think men are ‘wired’ at a very early age to be aggressive and taught this is the norm. Not good

@partyparty Well, up until recently a man HAD to be the aggressor /defender, simply because we didn’t live in well regulated, lawful societies until the last 100 years or so. One women on a farm with two or more kids in tow would be no match for one male outlaw with bad intentions. Old social mores die hard.

@Dutchess_III – that is where we disagree, that woman on the farm didn’t believe she could be a match so she wasn’t and she didn’t believe because that is what society told her. Let me tell you if I were the woman on the farm with a couple of kids over the age of toddlers and I am sure there were dogs there as well, that outlaw would be biting off a lot more than he could chew!

You don’t have to be bigger or physically stronger than your opponent, for example a person controlling a horse, you just have to have confidence and smarts.

There are of course exceptions, but for the most part, this is true even today.

I think most farm women in those days could pretty much kick anyone’s butt today! It was a much harsher time.

All things are relative, I wasn’t aware of this but just found it thanks to @lillycoyote’s link in another question.
link

Once women get over the cultural parameters set upon them and deny victimhood, they can do most anything!

@partyparty Bingo. My sentiments exactly.
@rooeytoo I would crush you in tennis. No woman could beat me in tennis. Before you jump on me I’m just kidding, I know girls who can outrun me and my one sister can crush me playing basketball and billiards.

@Paradox – well next time you are in Australia, let me know and we’ll settle it on the court!

@Paradox Thanks :))

I agree, @rooeytoo…there are a lot of social “expectations” that go into the way we behave and what we expect of ourselves. However, men and women are genetically different, end of story. And I don’t understand why saying that we are is taken as some sort of insult against women. I don’t understand why it isn’t assumed to be an insult against men. I don’t understand why it would be considered an insult to anyone. Denying genetic differences is like denying evolution. Men and women are NOT identical with the exception of different reproductive parts. We aren’t. And I do not understand why that is so hard for some folks to accept…?

It bothers me because there is no such thing as separate but equal. And the more people harp on these innate differences, the more opportunities that are lost to both sexes. Science has shown that there are as many similarities as differences, I hope for a world where no one tells a young female with overt or subliminal messages, that they can’t be a race car driver or a jet pilot. We know there are some very good female jet pilots because equal opportunity employment demands females have the chance, not so much in the private sector of racing.

That is why I find it hard to accept, I want males to feel okay with becoming a nurse or a teacher and females okay if they want to be a cop or fireman (to use the most hackneyed and obvious examples). I don’t want them to have to deal with someone telling them they can’t be what they want to be because they are male or female and therefore different and not capable of the job they wish to pursue.

Does that explain it to you?

I agree with you @rooeytoo…but again, whether you realize it or not, you’re again turning the suggestion that men and women are different into an assumed insult against women! If someone says there are genetic differences in the sexes, people invariable jump in with “But a woman can be anything they want to be!” WHY is that the knee jerk assumption, that when that is said it is assumed that women will be lacking? Why is it when people say there are genetic differences in the sexes, no one jumps in and says, “You’re saying a man can’t be anything he wants to be!” It’s always assumed that they’re saying, “A _woman can’t be anything she wants to be.”

Maybe that’s part of what needs to change, is that assumption that comparing and accepting that men and women are different does NOT mean women (or men) come out lacking in any way.

You know, women can’t father a baby. Men can’t carry a child for 9 months. I doubt there is a woman in the world who could hold her own on a male pro football or basket ball team, or in a boxing ring with a man. That isn’t an insult. That’s a fact. Shooting pool, racing a car, being a jet pilot is different. It doesn’t depend almost exclusively on brute strength. It depends on brains and guts, which men and women have equally (depending on the individual, of course!)

This isn’t a debate about brains or motivation.

@Dutchess_III I already accept the obvious genetic and physical differences between men and women and there might be some slight genetically programmed mental differences but I was speaking more of the mental side of things along with other gender stereotypes. Your statement that “men are hunters” is the perfect example of this and then all of these other gender stereotypes seem to branch out from that lone statement you’ve made.

Then this ideology goes on so society continues to perpetuate what a “real” man should be. Because of this it is not politically correct for men to be quiet, introverted or shy. Men are expected to not openly show emotions, there are still politically correct occupations based on gender, example: (far less female engineers, mathematicians, physicists, cosmologists, chess grandmasters, etc) and even when it comes to dating where men are expected to be the pursuers. Are women just less interested in those occupations I’ve listed than men (in no way am I suggesting women have less intelligence than men) because of social upbringing or real biological reasons? Are men really more logical and women more emotional? Do men have the need to feel wanted just as much as women? I know I’m asking alot. Where are the biologists to weight in on this one?

When you tell a person they have limitations based upon their gender then you are putting blinders on them, defining what they may become or achieve. Much better to stop dwelling on what they can’t do because they are male or female and instead tell them to be whatever they want to be. Stop dwelling on what they can’t become and just let people be! Why do you insist I admit there are differences, there are more similarities. I want my youngest granddaughter to grow up knowing she can be anything she wants to be, not just what someone decides women are allowed by their gender to be.

@Paradox My opening statement was based on a society that was around not so long ago, that is nothing like this one. It was a lawless, violent, kill-or-be-killed world to live in, and only the strong (men and women) survived. We have so many more options now, because we are protected now, and can be allowed and encouraged, in so many ways to be everything we can be as a human being…not just as a male or female when we had strictly defined roles because that’s what was needed to survive then.

To pick on one thing you mentioned….I do not, for one moment, believe men are “more logical.” As far as my experience, just the opposite has been the case! Really! But it would be illogical for me to assume that my experience was the norm for all men. As for the rest, I believe that everything regarding intelligence and ability’s of the brain is based on individuals, not gender.

But there are differences, in physicality, and it would be illogical to assume that those differences didn’t influence our respective brains in some way over millions of years of evolution. The biggest, strongest men kept the most people alive. The most fertile women kept producing the people. We have to have had some common ancestor(s), that, in addition to physical ability (protecting/having babies) also had some common mental trait that was passed on as well.

@rooeytoo You’re still doing it. You’re assuming that the statement “Men and women are different” is an insult to women. You said “I want my youngest granddaughter to grow up knowing she can be anything she wants to be” Why doesn’t the statement make you concerned that your youngest grandson might feel held back as well?

@Dutchess_III – probably because I am female and that is my perspective. I have had to fight tooth and nail for so many things that are handed to men. But it is true that by ceasing the attention paid to the differences and instead dwelling on the similarities it would free men as well. But that is their fight and a lot are still busy working on the differences and superiority of males to care, so I don’t really worry about that aspect either. I see by your profile you are a teacher, I hope you are not hammering on these differences to your students, once again it is defining and thus limiting what women (and men) could accomplish if people weren’t telling them they can’t.

Not sure. It’d be a difficult study to do truly scientifically.

It’s controversial. Scientists are not agreeing about the role of prenatal hormones shaping the human brain. The only agreement is about the uneven distribution of sexual orientation.

@rooeytoo We come from the same generation. I had to fight the male chauvinist BS too.

Re: teaching….Pounding on what “differences” between men and women? That generally speaking men are bigger and stronger than women? Or are you saying I shouldn’t suggest to them that “I believe that everything regarding intelligence and abilities of the brain is based on individuals, not gender.” which is what I said “up there.” I don’t know what you’re talking about.

However, I am offended that you would assume that I would use my classroom as a place to further any personal agenda or opinion I have, whether it be evolution, Christianity, racial issues, the differences between men and woman (except what comes out of a biology textbook) whatever. Any teacher who does that should be fired.

Further, I teach adults. It’s not a subject that touched on in their online courses, or in our lab.

@Dutchess_III – teachers are like editors, their own agenda comes through consciously or subconsciously.

You said “I doubt there is a woman in the world who could hold her own on a male pro football or basket ball team, or in a boxing ring with a man. That isn’t an insult. That’s a fact. ” I believe you are placing limitations on females by that statement. As long as young women hear that being said over and over again, they believe it and will not even try.

You said, “One women on a farm with two or more kids in tow would be no match for one male outlaw with bad intentions.” If that doesn’t project female victimhood I don’t know what does.

You keep saying the same thing in different ways and denying it all the while. You are hammering on the differences, men are stronger, men are protectors. It is the message young women get from their first moment of awareness from all of advertising and media in general. If that is the way you want to raise your daughters and sons, so be it. But don’t put your spin on my female descendants, let them grow up thinking they can compete on any field, physical or intellectual, until it is proven otherwise.

I am finished.

@rooeytoo so…this is crazy! So…the fact that men can’t carry babies means we’re putting limitations on what the men can and can’t do? Somethings are just a FACT. I didn’t say women are not as good as men in sports. That would be putting limitations on them. What I said that in sports that rely on brute strength, the women can’t compete against me. What’s there to cry about?