If the military allows gays to bunk with straight people, should they allow men and women to bunk together?

no.. it may come as a surprise to a lot of people that Gay men have served in the military for ever. it is only cultural attitudes and identification that has shifted over the ages. Men and women bunking together is far more disruptive dynamically speaking.

If it would lessen the amount of rape and unwanted pregnancies in the military as it now stands, I’d be all in favor of it.

The gay people currently in the military share same sex housing. How many problems have you ever heard of arising from that?

@augustlan – Well…you wouldn’t really be hearing about it would you…considering the whole “not telling” mentality. ;-)

But the male-female separation makes sense at this point. I would love to get to the point where we have barracks that are “Starship Troopers” style. In the end, men grow up getting nekkid around men, and women around women. So it doesn’t really warrant that much of a paradigm shift.

When will we as a society get past these types of Questions? When can we just get past it and move on? I don’t believe that questions like this are asked in innocence any longer. I believe when I read this question, the Obama assaination question, the color of pueto ricans question, that we are just bating ourselves back. Lets move forward from us and them. It is all just us.

I asked this as a simple logical question. If people are allowed to room together, at least one of whom may be sexually attracted to the other, does it not follow that men and women should be allowed to do so? Since most people would recoil at this notion, I would like to know what grounds they have for feeling that way.

Socially, again, we more often end up housing/bathing/etc. with people of the same gender, regardless of their sexuality.

It’s not solely about sex. It’s also about comfort – men and men and women and women is more comfortable overall. Separating out gay men and women and putting them in separate barracks would actually go against creating an integrated mentality regarding out servicemembers. Further, if we’re using sexuality as the only deciding factor, you would have to have one gay man, one gay woman in a private barrack – adding a person of either gender or sexuality into the mix would create the situation that the separation would be meant to avoid.

Don’t think so.

Men do not get pregnant, women do.

No… if they are in Iraq, Afghanistan etc., could endanger the lives of others in their patoon. Men and women in a war situation need total focus. Think this would be a detraction to their mission.

No, they should not house men and women together. Men are animals when it comes to sex and looking sets them off.

@marinelife – I hope there was a healthy amount of sarcasm in that statement…because otherwise I’m gonna have to call sexism on that play.

The soviets have done it since at least World War 2.

But I could see the arguments against it.

@tedd really…. that is interesting!

I think it’s a legitimate question, not only because the military does keep men and women separate to help keep fraternization down, but also because, right or wrong, it will most likely be an issue for some people. Some men don’t want to be sleeping in a bed next to a gay man and some women don’t want to be sleeping in a bed next to a lesbian woman. It could be because of bad experiences they’ve had in the past or ignorance, but either way, I can see it becoming an issue.

If anything, I really think it could help for providing the soldiers with more privacy. Perhaps more private shower stalls and fewer people in each living area. The soldiers already have quite a bit more privacy than they did 20 and 30 years ago, so I could see it continue to increase from here.

@BoBo1946 Did you know that when spouses go overseas together now they get to be in a room together? There are two couples currently in Iraq with my husband right now. The CHUs that they are living in are for two people in each one and the married couples get to share a CHU.

@Seaofclouds – The Pentagon report based on its military survey stated that the results indicated there was no need to change the barracks situation.

I knew a Marine who’s job was to “process” gays out of the military. He later became a cop who ended up having sex with an underage male. The kid blackmailed him for 500 bucks, but this guy wouldnt pay. He ended up going to jail. I met this guy when he appointed himself my AA sponsor at a meeting. I didnt know his history, and I would be seen with him in public. I eventually realized why seeming strangers on the street would yell things at him. He was pretty hated, and was using me to help his image a little bit. He confided in me one day, his story, this info, and I distanced myself from him asap. The moral of the story is, sometimes we dont know what we have gotten into, what we have signed up for. It’s just not possible for a civillian to know what it’s like to be in the military, we have an idea but… Do gay people want this repealed, do they want to be open with their sexuality, is it a big enough deal to come out to their fellow soldiers? Bill Clinton started the “Don’t ask Don’t tell” policy didn’t he? What was it like before that? Do gays want this repealed? I wouldn’t tell anyone who didnt need to know, and I dont see how anyone would need to know. It’s not like gay soldiers are hitting on their fellow comrades, that’s just silly. And being enlisted isn’t a Moonie mass wedding where people are paired up. That’s my two cents.

@iamthemob I read that, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be some issues that come up. They will most deal with these issues as they come up and quietly, such as moving people from one are to another if they say they are uncomfortable sharing a living space with someone that is gay/lesbian.

I don’t see them making any big changes right away, but in time, I could see it changing. Such as when it comes time to tear down the old barracks and build new ones because they need to be replaced. I could see the new barracks offering even more privacy than what the current ones do.

@truecomedian:

(1) Although there’s no need to tell anyone about it as a matter of fact, it shouldn’t be something that causes shame and you should feel the need to hide.

(2) Yes, gays in the military want this repealed. But, the main reason is not so they can suddenly serve openly. The reason is so that if it is discovered that they are gay, or they do need to let it be known for some reason, they don’t get discharged, lose their benefits, etc.

@Seaofclouds

Sure. But the general trends indicated to the Pentagon that no special measures needed to be taken. It’s the military, and there’s a lot of high emotions at time – and the Pentagon determined that the support and education structures in place already could be utilized to deal with any arising situation.

The main thing, and what I think people forget, is that repealing the ban is simply that the soldiers will no longer be discharged if they are outted, or come out. The soldiers still need to make the decision to come out. I think that will happen a lot more slowly than any government action trying to stall change would slow it down.

@Seaofclouds was referring to when they were on patrol etc. Just an opinion.

@iamthemob I agree. Another issue (besides people not wanting to share a living space) I can see coming up is people complaining that if there was a known gay couple and they were sharing a living space, then a straight couple should be able to as well. The current arrangement of separating males and females prevents that, but if it’s truly a matter of just keeping fraternization down, then it may need to be addressed at some point.

I’m not saying DADT shouldn’t be repealed, I think it should be. I can just picture a few different things that may come up as soldiers come out and are open about their sexuality. I’m not saying any of it will be an immediate issue, just things to think about and plan for now so that when they do come up, they have a plan of action.

@BoBo1946 I was just sharing the fact that spouses are bunked together. I think a husband and wife worrying about each other in a warzone would be more of a distraction than men and women sharing a living space. The soldiers are going to find ways to have sex if that’s what they want to do, separate living quarters doesn’t really stop that.

The barracks issue would probably be a rarity – but who knows? I’m pretty sure that they can modify UCMJ Article 134 (covering fraternization) in order to have this fall under a regulated/forbidden relationship.

That’s probably the appropriate means, eventually, to cover all the interaction issues…rather than barracks segregation (although not just yet. ;-))

And yeah, shit will happen. But the same things were an issue when blacks were allowed to enlist, etc. And Europe has already dealt with the issues. The military seems to be remarkably resilient – and rightfully so, considering that we expect them to be the most adaptive citizens.

I never suggested segregation. I don’t see how segregation would work anyway, since a gay couple would still be living together, just away from the straight soldiers. That’s why I said I see it going toward a point where the barrack offer more privacy for everyone. That way it really shouldn’t be an issue if there is a gay soldier living in the same building as opposed to sharing the room.

I was talking about the current gender segregation. ;-)

Ahh, well there’s already UCMJ stuff for the fraternization that isn’t allowed. It’s the allowed fraternization that could cause straight couples to become jealous of gay couples that are able to live together when they are not. Getting rid of the current gender segregation would take quite a bit of work in my opinion. I don’t see that happening any time soon.

I haven’t read all the responses, I’ll admit. But I think that part of the reason why men and women are segregated has to do with privacy. A man is more comfortable changing clothes in front of other men than in front of women, and women more comfortable in front of women than men.

Not everything is done for sexual reasons.

@Seelix very good.

This is a good question, but I don’t think they should allow men and women to bunk together (unless they want to). Typically men are stronger than women so if a man tried to do something to a woman it would be more difficult for her to fight off her “attacker” than it would be for another man to do the same thing.

@Universal_Scapegoat – I don’t think that would be a real issue, though. These are barracks – they’re not private rooms, after all. You’re right about the strength – but hey, these are military women. Finally, it’s difficult to see how the rest of the barrack-mates wouldn’t come to aid.

@iamthemob It is more than likely they would, but what if mob mentality took over and everybody decided to (for lack of a better way to say it) jump in line and take their turn? Women are taught nowadays that if they’re getting raped to yell “Fire” instead of “Rape” because so many people have become callaused about issues that don’t directly affect them.

@Universal_Scapegoat – I doubt that there would be just one woman in the barracks. Also, this is a military location – she would yell “rape.” Finally – again, these are military folks – it’s not a guaranty…but they’re expected to be disciplined.

Bad shit happens in any situation. I just think that the potential severe repercussions and general respect that servicemembers should and do show each other would make this one of the more unlikely scenarios.

@iamthemob I’m getting the idea that the barracks aren’t what a lot of people seem to think they are anymore. Most of the barracks now offer a lot of privacy. When I was in basic training 11 years ago, my barrack room was a room with three beds in it and therefore three woman in it. There were several other rooms just like that. We had to share one open shower area with all the women in the building though. I’m not sure how much they’ve changed in the past 11 years since I haven’t been back there.

Living on post now (from what I’ve seen preparing the barracks for the return of single soldiers), there are two beds in a room and those two soldiers share a private bathroom. Some barracks even have private rooms for each person (those are usually for the higher ranks). At most places, it’s not one big open room with 20 beds anymore like it was many years ago. There might be a few still like that, but they aren’t as common as they use to be.

And just because rape has been brought up, according to the latest military released statistics, they say 1 in every 3 woman deployed right now will be sexually assaulted or raped. It is a very well known issue in the military and unfortunately, not as rare as one would hope. I will have to see if I can find the statistics again. I found them a few nights ago while having a conversation with my husband about it.

@Seaofclouds – you’re right – I am assuming a little more of an old-school boot camp scenario.

In those cases, I don’t really see a problem in segregation – potentially, even in the case of sexuality and not just gender. To be honest, I have to respect that in close and less public quarters like the ones you described someone might be uncomfortable bunking with someone that wasn’t really, you know, “their type.”

I would just like to point out that the Israeli military not only drafts both men and women right out of high school, but their troops are not segregated by sex or gender. They seem to be doing okay.

I hate to say it…and I’ll preface this by saying that I am actually proud to be American…but I think as a society we’re kind of immature. Plus, we’re incredibly big and diverse in comparison.

That’s interesting to hear. As I said before, I kind of love the whole “Starship Troopers” concept of the military barracks life.

There is a caveat though, when it is necessary for the people to take up arms, say for example in a war of liberation, or a people’s socialist revolution in particular, men and women co-exist and fight together, hopefully with mutual respect and on a basis of absolute equality. Maybe not in equal numbers but in the spirit of Gender solidarity, see for example Ken Loach’s brilliant Land and Freedom for a dramatic account of the Spanish Civil war, also for whom the Bell tolls and so forth. But generally speaking, where the military activity isn’t based on an overwhelming and self critical adherence to the concept of absolute gender equality, i would be opposed to it. Because in the case of a standing army in the US or Britain, for example, women operate in the military as they would in any industrial career arrangement, The domestic sleeping arrangements don’t figure, but different changing rooms, toilets etc still apply in civilian life, even in Hostel Dorms to a greater extent, prisons and etc. But our society is stratified with regards to Gender and is tacitly or openly sexist, particularly in the Military, and the Military exists to preserve this status quo not to change it.

@mammal , I am not in the habit of defending the military, but they promoted desegregation before the rest of society.

@LostInParadise desegregation in terms of race?

Yes.