Is chivalry dead?

So, you want to be rewarded for doing this? (if your doing it chivalry is’t dead)
But, Basic appreciation of others actions is dying

I think it’s usually older men that do that stuff. I have opened the car door and closed it a few times, but I was doing it to intentionally woo my date in a joking kind of way.

@coffeenut loll did I ask for one? grrrrrr

Yes, sadly, it is. Young boys are not being taught common courtesy. Young women want to feel equal and independent, but do not exercise manners either.

@marinelife could not agree more!

I worked in a building where holding the door open for someone meant being reprimanded or fired. It’s a different world in this high security age.

Yes, RIP. Manners and courtesy are not about chivalry.

@BoBo. Yes you did, you expect to be thanked for doing this… If your not, it seems to upset you.

To me “Chivalry” is doing the right thing for the sole reason of doing the right thing, if you get a “thank you” along the way great, if not…oh well

I guess we should define chivalry first, because to me, chivalry is the male taking extra steps to cater to the woman, for reasons I’m not totally sure of. I think of the guy putting his coat in a rain puddle so the woman can step on it, opening the car door and shutting it for her, pulling out her chair etc.

I think people don’t do this stuff anymore because it seems excessive and in these more modern times, women are fully capable of ordering their own food and pulling out their chair. I kind of feel that by doing some of these things, we are unintentionally putting women in a submissive place. The reason why I don’t do these things is because I know the woman is already physically capable of doing them herself. This is different from manners and simple good gestures like holding a door open.

@BoBo1946

I was raised as you were and I hold the door for anyone behind me too. I was taught to respect women and to acknowledge them. I have seen a couple of times where a woman didn’t seem to like the extra attention.

In my experience chivalry is alive, but maybe on life support. Hanging out with a wheelchair user has actually been heartening; there are many people who go out of their way to help with a door or a chair or something else that presents a barrier. Of course there are almost as many people who are downright rude but if it was a contest, the kind people would eek out a victory.

Personally, I am trying to keep the patient going by teaching my boys to be helpful and polite gentlemen. Sometimes I wonder if I am being successful then I lose a kid going through a door only to look back and find he is still holding it open ten people later.

Duties to women: this is probably the most familiar aspect of chivalry. This would contain what is often called courtly love, the idea that the knight is to serve a lady, and after her all other ladies. Most especially in this category is a general gentleness and graciousness to all women.

Wiki

Nope. I see common courtesy all the time. Things are just different now, and manners change. When chivalry was big, people pissed on the streets and blew their snot on the ground.

There are just a ton more people, more cultures interacting in the open, etc.

Absolutely not! It is not dead. I am not very concerned if someone does ot thanks me for holding the door open, but I am concerned when someone does not old it open themselves for the next person. It is not so much the thanks yous, but following the etiquette rules of functioning in a society. Not just a man woman thing, but are, we live amongst other thing, and these rules create order in chaos, and help our neighbors and ourselves. If you live out in the country in areas that have small populations, maybe you can get away with not knowing or doing these things, but in crowded more urban areas these things really matter. Now, I am not saying people in rural areas comply less or more, that isnjust a statement about when these etiquette rules are most utilized and useful.

In NYC, no one is pushing there way onto a subway car as soon as the doors open, they stand aside to let everyone out first, then people board. Stand to the right of the escalators, so people who want to walk can pass on the left. Let people out of the elevator, before you get on. If you are standing near the the buttons for the floors on the elevator ask what floors people need if the elevator is crowded. Give up your seat on the bus or subway for someone who is elderly or pregnant, or young children. Think. These rules are logical not a burden. Men, help women who are struggling to get their carry on bag in an overhead compartment, you are taller and stronger. Open my car door when I am in high heals and a skirt. I’m all dolled up and it is not easy to get in and out of the car, especially if we are in a low to the ground sportscar, and God forbid I have a long coat on in the winter.

Chivalry is not dead. Not where I live, and not in my house.

@JLeslie well, I’ve been to New York… guess i was on the wrong side of town!

No,not at all.
.I have been fortunate enough to meet alot of great people :)

As with @SuperMouse, I am with a person that is wheelchair bound (my mom) and have found so many people of all ages that help me out that it simply amazes me. I have been in doctor offices where young boys have jumped up to help me with the door, outside in the pouring rain trying to toss groceries in the car so I can get my mom out of the wheelchair and look back to see a man holding an umbrella over her. I also hold doors open for people of all ages as I hate to let a door close in someones face. I don’t expect a “thank you” but when I get one, it does make me smile. So whether this is chivalry or just common courtesy, I find it is still alive and well where I live.

I don’t think it’s dead. I always hold the door open for the people behind me. My son will go open a door if he sees someone coming to the door that may need help (like someone carrying a large package into the post office). My husband opens my car door for me almost (sometimes I will race him to the door just for fun and beat him) every time we get in the car together and then I lean over and open his door for him. My son occasionally opens my car door for me. My husband always walks on the side of me that is closest to moving traffic.

I would say that fewer people are doing those types of things, but it’s certainly not dead yet. Our son is learning those things from us and any other children we have will also learn those things.

@BoBo1946 So, when you were in NY, people did not let people off of the subway? Or, out of the elevator before they got on? In general here in Memphis people do hold doors for each other, but there have been many times where people push their way into my gym or a store, when I am trying to get out, totally clueless. It happens everywhere of course. When I arrived at Michigan State University, a lot of the kids grow up never having to use public transportation. They couldn’t seem to figure out to walk to the back of the bus so others could get on once the seats were full, the bus driver had to tell them to move back. Or even on the flippin’ dance floor at a club, they were all over the place bumping into people, we can tell when someone on a dance floor does not go clubbing much, no respect for the crowded dance floor.

My husband still opens doors for me, and helps me out of the car. Not all of the time, but when it is helpful.

It’s funny because I do the same thing sometimes. If I hold a door for someone and they don’t say “thank you,” I say your welcome. But that, to me, is more manners than chivalry. Chivalry I define as men going the extra mile for a woman. THIS is think is dead. There is a mentality now that if one woman won’t take me, the next one will, so men don’t feel the need to do these things. I just want a man who will do them because he wants to and feels that I am worth doing that for.
Manners I do feel are also falling by the wayside and it’s unnerving. I was brought up to be polite, never go anywhere empty handed, hold a door, help those less able, say “thank you” and “your welcome.” But I realize this is a dying breed. I am just happy I am the better person that does these things.

I don’t think it’s chivalry that’s dead, as much as it is we seem to be less considerate of others at times.

@Ponderer983 well, I think men got confused with all of the equal rights stuff. Some perceived chivalry, the more precise definition that you are using, as being demeaning to women, or classifying women as the weaker sex. I say bullshit. My husband still opens doors for me, walks on the street side of a sidewalk, etc. Here is the thing, we are weaker, physically weaker generally. An average man and an average woman, the man is taller and stronger, without doing anything special in the gym or taking special vitamins lol. So, they should carry the heavy luggage, should help us lift our bags over our heads, when we are in high heals we are even in a weaker position yet to get in and out of cars, plus holding our purses, a balancing act.

Also, age before beauty, and women before men, means we don’t all bump into each other. Practical.

@JLeslie I understand your point, and I can tell how a man can get confused and have a hard time balancing not being demeaning toward a woman and having her think he thinks she is weaker and just being polite, mannerful (is that a word LOL), and chivalrous. I, too, hold doors for others, men as well, so it is not beyond them to do so. It is appreciated by women when men do these things, at least to me. I don’t feel as though they are demeaning me. I took the equal rights movement to be more intellectual than physical, becasue the physical aspects – as you eluded to – can not change so easily. That is biological and well ingrained into our DNA. I feel belittled when men think they are smarter just because. That I take huge exception to.

I don’t quite understand your last sentence – could you elaborate ;)

I don’t think Chivalry is dead as much as people have lowered their standards and/or expectations to be treated with respect. I learned the old fashioned way…my mom would stand at the door until one of the men present would open the door for her.

@Ponderer983 I am on your side. I was just maybe offering a reason why men might not be sure what to do, what is still appropriate. If they might be insulting a woman by trying to help her. I completely agree that intelligence is not a gender thing, but physical stature is.

My last sentence, when you get to a doorway or in an elevator and two people are upon it at the same time, the elderly go first, then women, then men. I personally don’t believe in making a grand stand to allow someone ahead when you are already in front, that slows everyone down, this is just for when two people are at the same point at the same time. Like the rules for a four way stop when driving.

I’m reading this right…. so, anything a man does to help a lady, there is a motive behind it. Don’t get it. I’ve good manners (want to be politically correct for some) because of the way my parents raised me. Did not know this question was going to be so controversial. Now, i know why i don’t ask many questions!

@BoBo1946 You can hold the door for me anytime and I will thank you for it.

I am a chivalrous woman, always on the alert to help.

Just yesterday myself and another lady rushed to hold the door open at a store for a wheelchair bound person.

I also told someone they had a tail light out the other night in a drive through and they were thirlled to know and then checked my tail/brake lights for me.

If anything I think men can misread friendly and helpful as flirtation more so than the opposite.

Obviously just being my usual friendly, cheerful self turned on the Fed-Ex guy enough the other day for him to come back to my home for a second try at engaging me again.
Or maybe it was just his penthouse forum fantasy of helping a woman unpack her foam beanbag love seat and well, you know…not being able to control myself! lol

@pearls ahhh…. always a true friend to the rescue! My pleasure my Dear!

@BoBo1946 Who talked about a man having a motive? I missed that. What motive?

Chivalry is a Medievel term, taught/used only by the Knights back in the day, to set themselves apart from the everyday man on the street.
He should be humble, merciful and show COURTESY to everyone he meets, and to a Woman he must also be gracious and be gentle.

Showing manners, being polite, it all fits in with chivalry as it’s about showing courtesy.

Chivalry isn’t dead… but I think the word will probably completely disappear from use soon. I think people will just refer to manners, standards etc etc rather than use this word.
It’s a shame.

Wow. At least where I live, the holding-open-the-door is anything but dead. The doors practically never close all the way, because they’re always being held open for the next person.

It actually gets to a point of awkwardness, where you’re still so far away from the door you still have the chance of not going into it, and some soul trying too hard to be kind will stand there waiting for you… And then I’m running to it so they’re not waiting for me.

Then there’s the push-the-door-open move, where you literally push it all the way open so it’s not closed by the time the next person gets there. You’re gone, but your thought is still there.

Personally, I’m with @Blackberry on the excessive expectations: that men are expected to serve the lady, and the lady expected to stand around to be waited on. I don’t like it at all. Them opening my car door when they have to walk all the way around the car to do so? Me waiting on them to open it? Then pulling my seat out for me? and then when I’m seated pushing it back in for me? Carrying all my things while I walk there holding nothing? I’m glad most of those have-tos aren’t as prevalent.

Anyway, the holding-open-the-door, too, gets tiresome. I can open my own door up, it’s not that difficult. I understand that it’s a sign of curtesy, and most people want to be nice to each other. (I certainly don’t want to be the one to stop being nice to others.) It’s just such a weird thing to have being so culturally important, I think.

@DancingMind I think in normal every day, when people run ahead or wait a long time to be courtious it is ridiculous and annoying to. For me, I am only talking about when it is not an inconvenience to the other person.

@JLeslie The problem I have with your weaker sex comment is that some of us do everything without a man. I think your point is a cop-out.

Chivalry needs to remain dead. Long live courtesy and kindness, no matter the sex.

Yes, and good riddance. And if it’s not dead, I’ll help kill it. ;)

Politeness on the other hand, I have no problem with and would not want to see dead. I hold doors open for people sometimes, but it doesn’t matter what gender they are. Gender-specific politeness (in other-words, sexist politeness look up the word “sexist” if you don’t believe me) can go to hell, but just politeness and courtesy in general is important.

Now, if a couple likes traditional chivalry, then so be it. If the man likes to hold the door open for his partner and walk on the outside of the sidewalk and she likes it too, great, more power to them. What I oppose is the obligation for a man to treat women differently just because they’re women.

@psychocandy I think it is polite and courteous for anyone who is taller then me to reach the item too high on the shelf, man or woman. Call it what you will, but usually the men are taller. I don’t get caught up in semantics. I might be able to lift my heavy luggage above my head into the luggage rack, but might risk hurting my back, and for the average man it is nothing, why not have him do it? It is not saying I can’t do it, it is saying between the two of us, more logical he do it. At the supermarket whena really short woman was reaching for something on the top shelf, I offered to get the item for her. It was simple for me, barely a reach, for her, a strain on tippy toes, possibly knock something over or hurt herself. I don’t think stating the obvious facts, women are shorter and generally not as strong as men is telling anyone anything they don’t know. Then we put ourselves into get-ups that make it more difficult to manuver like high heels and short skirts, and tight girdles, and why not take a helping hand?

Like I said, when it become inconvenient for others, them I am not on board, but etiquette rules are to make everyone more comfortable. That’s why I agreed with @DancingMind that when I have to rush because someone is trying to be polite and hold the door, but I am still 20 feet from the door, well, I don’t want them to hold the door, they just made me rush, inconvenient.

Yes I do think that chivalry is on its way out, sadly. Being courteous and polite towards a fellow citizen doesn’t cost anything and thanking someone for their kind gesture doesn’t cost anything, and you may get a smile in return for what you have done.

“If a man be gracious and courteous to strangers it shows he is a citizen of the world” Francis Bacon

@JLeslie I never expect anyone to do anything. How can I? To me, that reeks of entitlement.

I’m seriously short. I will do anything I can to reach something before I ask someone, and if someone offers, I am very appreciative. To expect someone to notice me struggling when they have their own life to consider is beyond the reach of my ego.

I think it all boils down to self awareness which equates other awareness.

Most poeple are so stuck in their own little narrow mindsets, it is all about them, all of the time.

The gross and pervasive narcissism that has spread like the plague it is.

I am always sooooo impressed with others that notice and pay attention to their surroundings.

Yesterday I had the greatest encounter with a couple in a parking lot. We were standing and taking in a flock of Seagulls circling just above our heads in battle with some crows.

We were the only 3 humans out of the teeming masses that stopped to ‘smell the seagulls.’ lol

We chatted about the importance of noticing and turns out they are looking for property in my area so I turned them on to some places to look. :-)

3 strangers having a discussion about life and the spirituality of nature, in the middle of a
crowded parking lot.

I was joking about how nobody ever looks UP!

Lots more going on than just watching your feet shuffle along. haha

Chivalry can go fuck itself into oblivion. I don’t want you to hold the door open for me because I’m a woman, and I sure as hell don’t want you to help me because I, as a woman, am helpless.

Common courtesy, on the other hand, is great, and far from dead. If you hold out the door for me because I’m a person, I’ll love it and thank you and return the favor.

@papayalily How do you tell the difference?

@mrentropy Sometimes I can’t, if that’s the only time I ever see them. Sometimes, though, they’ll hold the door open for me but not for the men passing by, or not for older folks, or they won’t allow me to return the favor, or even though I get there first they have to open it for me. It’s not really a big deal if it’s just a random person, it’s more for like someone I’m dating.

No! I’ve enjoyed it most of my life and extend it where I can. To me, some aspects of chivalry and manners make social life with strangers and acquaintances so much more comfortable and expedient that I often find it hard to believe some people fight against these social nicities with such vehemence.

@Neizvestnaya

Most people fight against the sexist aspect of it, not manners and politeness in general.

Not in my family. All the men and women in my family practice politeness in most settings.

I’ve always been the one in relationship to pick up dead rodents with my bare hands, and all manner of nasty animal stuff, every man I have been in relationship with runs gagging from the room when exposed to anything like cat puke.
Obviously there are limits on chivalry. hahaha

@BoBo1946 I’m fairly young yet and I do all those things you’ve mentioned. I guess times have changed from what I’ve read about chivarly. There’s nothing wrong with treating people with respect and common courtesy but many people love excuses to be a-holes who obviously have a problem with doing the things you’ve mentioned in the OP.

@Paradox good show my friend!

@Paradox Couldn’t agree with you more. Didn’t realise so many people would get such a bee in their bonnet about it…

@coffeenut So, you want to be rewarded for doing this
No this isn’t a ‘reward’ it is common courtesy. Saying thankyou should be something very basic you have been taught.
Aggression will get you nowhere

@partyparty Well said.

@psychocandy I completely disagree with you. Listen, if you are next to me in the market, and can’t reach the top shelf, and I am too self absorbed to notice you struggling, and you ask me to help…I am happy to help, and embarrassed I did not notice you needed it. Are you like this in every facet of your life? You don’t ask anyone for help when you need it? I don’t walk around asking for help often, I’m pretty self sufficient, but nothing wrong with asking when you need it. Especially a simple thing like reaching for the can of diced tomatoes. Took me one second to help you, I was not in a rush. If you saw me rushing, you probably would not ask me in particular. Like I said, if it is no inconvenience for the other person, why shouldn’t they help? It is not a sense of entitlement, that is way overboard. I help just as many people as help me. I hold just as many doors, reach for just as many things, have given up my seat for just as many people, and have allowed just as many people in front of me, as has done for me; in fact maybe I have done it more often for others than others have done for me.

Again, it is not so much a male female thing for me, it just happens women tend to be the shorter, or the more likely in a dress and heals. I am not saying women are so fragile they need help with everything. When I worked in retail I was moving boxes and merchandise around all day climbing on shelves in stock rooms. But, when I am dressed to the nines and my husband wants to take our 911, I appreciate a little flippin’ help getting out of the car, even if I need to wait for him to come around to my side of the car. I might get it all started, open the door, spin my body around to get my feet on the ground, and by the time he gets there he can give me a hand, and make sure the door does not hit the car next to us. What is so wrong with that? Are you going to refuse that based on some sort of independence, self-sufficient, rhetoric? And yes, sometimes I actually ask him to help me out of the car, because he does not help me out of the car every time we go out. If we are not going to a formal event, he may not be in the mode of me needing a little help, so I ask. It is not saying you can’t do it on your own, it is only saying, it is nice for us to help eah other, so everyone can have it a little easier.

I wonder, since you don’t like to ask for help, do you offer your help a lot? I only ask, because since I kind of have this expectation of people helping me, I offer help all of the time. It’s almost like a pay it forward to me. It’s not that I think everyone should be helping me.

Again. Some of us do not have a man around at all times so even if I needed help out of a car (?) I still have to do it myself. If something is on the top shelf, I still have to get it. If a jar is hard to open, guess who has to find a way to open it without asking the all mighty Y chromosome? Perhaps this why I do not expect others to assist me due to my shortcomings (pun intended). Self-sufficiency seems to be the rhetoric of everyone until they expect something from others and don’t want to take responsibility for their own lives.

Do I help others? If I see someone struggling, someone is incapacitated in some way or I am asked, sure, but I always ask and I would never just butt into someone’s life without being asked. I never assume that just because I perceive someone to need my help (how condescending) doesn’t mean that they actually do and I should immediately take charge. That’s such an American attitude. It makes me want to barf.

You (and others) can make assumptions and innuendos about me being self-centered or oblivious or whatever. Me. The one with no expectations. I do much more for others than I do for myself. I always have.

I will no longer follow this question. Your attitude is not worth it.

Probably best…Your attitude is not worth it either..

Anyone got a chill pill?

Mellow guys.

Whats to argue about?

Different strokes for different folks.

Differing styles do not have a right/wrong polarity.

@Coloma @Adirondackwannabe @misstrikcy when I asked this question, never dreamed it would cause so much “stuff!” Where is the delete button? loll

@BoBo1946 Who knew a simple question like this would get everyone all excited.
People, just be nice. Patrick Swayze’s line from Roadhouse. :)

@Adirondackwannabe ditto. I was challeged several times on this questions also. It ain’t that big a deal. Just don’t like debates Never was my thing. But, having said that, don’t like people getting personal either. But, having said that, best to say thank you and go on. Sometimes that is SO hard to do. But, if you get into back and forth “stuff” there will be no winners.

@BoBo1946 yeah you trouble maker..!!

No, i confess, I’m a bit grouchy today. Got out of bed on the wrong side.
I’ve had my chill pill…. it’s slowly working. And now you’ve put a big smile on my face :)

@misstrikcy that was me yesterday…. today, not bad.

@BoBo1946 Glad to hear it!

@misstrikcy today, just cold as rip…. in the teen’s last night. Us Southern folks are use to this.

@BoBo1946 I know it’s your thread, but this is general and you are off topic. :-)

@BoBo1946 Do you sense a mean streak running through jellydom lately? See what I mean?:)

@Adirondackwannabe I’m flagging your butt next for off topic. :-)

If I say you can do whatever you want to my butt is that off topic and mod bait as well?

God forbid that a bit of spontanaity happen in general! lol ;-)

@BoBo1946
@Adirondackwannabe

Uh oh..looks like we’re all gong to the principals office this morning! haha

Oh… I forgot!

I’m 47 and I’m doing the same. So are my children. Good manners are alive.

@pearls Thanks :))

@Paradox

“There’s nothing wrong with treating people with respect and common courtesy”

Most people who “oppose chivalry” agree with that statement. However, “chivalry” is not always synonymous with common courtesy. It usually refers to a specific behavioral code for men, especially with regard to women and treating them specially. It’s the sexist aspect of chivalry that people oppose, but no one seems to want to address that, so I’ll just keep saying it…

Just because I (and many others) don’t practice sexist chivalry doesn’t mean I don’t practice good manners and common courtesy.

@DominicX I’m with you. This is one of the first few times I’ve ever heard of chivalry being synonymous with common courtesy – normally when I hear about it, it’s a guy in a 80s/90s movie talking about how dating is harder now because some women still want you to open the door for them and pull out their chair for them, while others don’t, and if you choose the wrong one they’ll be offended… But it’s always specifically about how men treat women (especially in romantic settings, not just in general), not how humans of all genders, ages, etc treat all other humans regardless of gender, age, etc.

@psychocandy So, if I ask someone reaching for the diced tomatoes, “would you like me to help you get that?” I am being condescending?

Here’s the issue: when you say “I always hold the door open for a man or woman if they are behind me?”, I don’t consider that chivalry nor should that behavior die. If you said “I always hodl the door open for a woman because I am a man’, that is chivalry and should die. Also, is it me, or have there been just too much whining about ‘this isn’t what ir used to be; people aren’t what they used to be; teenagers were saints back in the day, etc.’ – so sick of that, there were no good old days, take your days now and make them good, for christ’s sake and stop looking backwards.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir If you said “I always hold the door open for a woman because I am a man’, that is chivalry and should die. Actually I agree with that statement. Both men and women should have equal respect for each other.

@BoBo1946 when I asked this question, never dreamed it would cause so much “stuff!” Where is the delete button? Yeah I hear you. I’m starting to get turned off from asking questions myself for the same reasons. People have to attack the person asking the questions instead of answering them. Some people have this attitude on here when you ask a question like:“Who knows and who cares”. But yet if you would make statements like that to these same users questions they probally wouldn’t appreciate statements like that too much. It is starting to become a major turnoff to me on here.

@Paradox I agree. I’m seeing more attacks on here and am getting tired of it. It seems to be in all the categories too. Not just attacking the person asking, but I have seen the asker get rude if you do not agree with their point of view. I have taken a break and may take a permanent break if it doesn’t turn around.

@chyna I know, I’ve asked a couple questions and instead of answering them some users have to say things like “he’s probally lying” or “who knows, who cares”? Uproar city if I returned that attitude to their questions however. I don’t mind if someone has a different opinion than mine but at least answer the question without trying to make certain users look bad. Some people ask questions and don’t get disrespected like that. Favoritism that certain users have for one another? Either way it’s getting old.

If any of these comments are directed at me, I am “arguing” as someone put it, because I felt my comments were misunderstood. Although, I see I have some GA’s so maybe not. I agree with @DominicX and @Simone_De_Beauvoir by the way.

@Paradox yeah, that will be my last one for a while. It ain’t worth it. @chyna me too. And, in regard to GA’s i’ve always given any member a GA for just answering the question. There are very few qreat answers (lots of very good ones) here. well, having said that, i give a ga if they just answer the question. not the one’s that put words into my mouth.

@JLeslie Not directed to you at all.

@JLeslie my answer was not directed at you either the first answer!

Will you guys please mellow out and be nice. It takes away from all of us when people are rude and less than civil.

It isn’t dead in Texas. And I like any opportunity to open a door for a man or help someone get an item off the top shelf. I always say “thank you” , too. And they always thank me.

manners are not dead per say it just depends on the couple that does it. If one doesnt like it one has only to tell the other and problem solved. its not rocket science to treat others like you would hope they would treat you.

Welcome to Fluther @dallas1971 !