Would you take a Women's Studies class with a male instructor?

Yes I would. I actually was talking about that to another friend once.

Of course, I am not one of those people who believes that subject belongs to some kind of sacred feminine space within me and only another being with boobs and vagina can teach it to me because of how obviously more in sync we are as females and with the cycles of the moon.

That’s interesting. I took a lot of WS classes and often wished there were more perspective in the discussions. I don’t learn as much or think my own positions through thoroughly while sitting in a group of people who are all agreeing with each other.

I tried to take a WS course when I was in College. They wouldn’t let me because I wasn’t a woman. I asked about where the Mens Studies course was, if I couldn’t take the WS course.

They kicked me out, maybe I should have called the ACLU?

@WestRiverrat How long ago was it?
I’d love for more men to take WS, it’s just as important for them to be aware.

@WestRiverrat That’s crazy. Or it sounds crazy, to me. That’s discrimination.

During my 6 years of study I had very few actual Women’s Studies professors. Most of my male professors were from other disciplines and the classes were cross-listed with something else. I don’t think many men are too interested in Women’s Studies.

The classes I took had quite a bit of interest from males wanting to join and they were technically allowed but made to feel pretty uncomfortable, if not downright unwelcomed. I can only think of one boy who made it through an entire semester and he made some great contributions.

Avoiding such a class because the instructor is male amounts to sexism.
I find Women’s Studies to be a most ridiculous field; it smells of the bad sort of feminism.

@Nullo Have you taken a class? ‘Cause, then, how would you know?

@papayalily It was in the early 80s. I think it was nearly the first WS course they had at the school at the time.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Because I’ve met people who take women’s studies classes, and because most schools provide course descriptions when you go to pick classes. My school averaged a thousand bucks a class; I wasn’t going to waste money like that.

I might avoid taking it with a male teacher unless he had an amazing reputation. I feel the same way about that as I do male gynecologists- I know there are some exceptional ones out there, but I would rather my instructor have first hand experience.

@Nullo I see. That’s too bad.
@Likeradar – first hand experience in what, exactly?

As long as he was a good teacher.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir In being a woman as a women’s studies teacher.

@Likeradar In my head, ‘being a woman’ can mean a million things – I don’t see how any of them relate to being a professor.

Of course I would. I’m a guy, and a Womens Study Class seems like a great way to pick up chicks no matter who’s teaching the class.

@Likeradar Sometimes I consider teaching, in the future, Race Theory – would you think me incapable because I’m not a person of color?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I completely get that the experience if “woman” is incredibly varied. In my experience though, I think that many women have a baseline understanding of womanhood. Just like I would want an artist as an art teacher or a teacher in my education courses, I would feel more comfortable walking into a women’s studies class on the first day knowing the teacher was a woman.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Oy. I’m glad you weren’t in any of my women’s studies classes.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir No, I wouldn’t think that at all. I never said a man would be incapable of teaching, or that there shouldn’t be male teachers, or that I would never take a class with a male teacher. I would just prefer a woman as a women’s studies teacher.

@Likeradar Got it.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies That really was the reasoning for most boys wanting to join the classes. They dropped out for the most part after coming to the conclusion that their gender wasn’t going to stand them in any favor in discussions of the subjugation and objectification of the female.

That was a shame, really.

I think that judging a person by their gender, sex, race or whether or not they wear glasses; for how well or not they can teach any given subject is flat out stupid. Judging a person incapable, before you have seen them in action, doing what they love, is always wrong. Women have had more difficulty with this any other group (at least in statistical numbers). Women are constantly judged incapable of doing things just because they are women. That is unfair, and so would it be to judge anyone before you know much more. The person has a penis, so he can’t teach the class? Rather silly. Personally I’d like to have a teacher who is good and if that’s a woman -great, if that’s a guy -fine by me.

There were plenty of men in my Women’s Studies classes. None of them seemed to be intimidated by what they were learning.

@everephebe Perhaps, but remember: At least at my college, you have at most 2 classes with an instructor before the period to drop with a full refund is over, and most first-day classes showcase the instructors ability to put together a syllabus and nothing else.

@papayalily Yeah? So ask around if the teacher is any good. Take your two classes. Find out.

@everephebe Once those two classes are over, you can’t change to a different instructor. It’s a mute point for me, personally, I’m just saying that with all classes, there’s a certain financial benefit to going with the instructor most likely to be good.

I am a women’s studies minor at my school and I can say that I think it would depend on the kind of course. For example, I am taking a class called Women in the Criminal Justice System and since that class is about the dissemination of information, I do not think anything would be lost if the professor was male. However, I think that there are many experiences, depending on the kind of class, as I said, that a man could not offer the class. Ideally, there would be no such thing as women’s studies and the classes would be gender studies instead.

I’m in a similar situation with one of my classes now, actually. My African American Literature class is taught by a white professor. As a white American, I was disappointed to not have a black professor because my white professor does not know what it is like to be a black American and so cannot offer the same kind analysis and personal experience that a black professor would have.

@KatawaGrey
Do you expect your biology teacher to be a frog?

@KatawaGrey What is this analysis you speak of that a black person would have, as a professor, over a white person, say me? Do you think teaching race theory is about the embodied experiences of people of color (and as @Likeradar and I were talking in PMs, white is a race and race theory isn’t necessarily about issues of ‘other races other than white’) because there are as many of those as there are people.

@everephebe: I think you’re just trying to be confrontational.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: A white person does not know what it’s like to be discriminated against based on race on a daily basis. Since most of what we’re reading is specifically about the experience of the black American from the time of slavery, specifically in a racial context, then, yes, I do think there is a certain amount of race theory in this course. It would be different if we were just reading works by black authors, but we are not. Nearly everything we’ve read is about the experience of being black in the US and discrimination and difficulties faced as a direct result of skin color.

Absolutely.

@KatawaGrey That sounds like a pretty limited kind of class but maybe that’s its scope – I wouldn’t take a race theory class with the kind of angle you describe (I’d expect so much more) but for what you do describe, I guess I can see why it’d matter to some to have a Black professor. Though, again, different black people experience discrimination in different ways. As do people of other races. I’m realizing now that I’m talking to you and to others about some of the stuff coming out of this thread that I went to a university that is far more progressive in terms of these matters – women’s studies are about gender and trans experience and men are welcome, race studies understand there are multitudes of races and that white needs to be deconstructed too. In our group, the Counterpublic Collective, the conversations go way beyond any of these topics, as well – perhaps I just expect so much more in-depth analysis that simply having a Black professor teaching about what it’s like to be black in America or anywhere is old news.

@KatawaGrey That is not always true. If you don’t believe me talk to a white Rhodesian expatriat.

@KatawaGrey: I’m a ‘white’ person who was discriminated against, poked, prodded, struck, grabbed and mistreated because of the color of my skin while I lived in South America as a child.

I’m just sayin’, that’s a really broad and erroneous statement you made there.

@asmonet: I was speaking specifically about the United States.

@WestRiverrat: Can you please explain your comment?

@Simone_de_Beauvoir: Truthfully, I was very disappointed. I thought it would be more about exposing students to literature that just happened to be written by black Americans. While I do consider it important to learn about the experiences of other races, I was more than a little surprised and disappointed with the class.

@KatawaGrey: I know you were, but the point still stands. I’m IN the United States. I live here, while I no longer am discriminated against on a daily basis because of my skin color I have nonetheless experienced racist behavior towards me. I have been hit by a stranger because they didn’t want me associating with their child, had my hair pulled and been pushed into dirt by teenagers when I was four, been called names the least offensive of which was gringa (a term that only calls me white girl, but implied separation from the group and was used to separate me from those who would interact with me)...If I taught a class on racism, I still have the experience. My skin color doesn’t change that.

@asmonet: But you don’t have the experience of a black American. I’m not talking about racism. I’m talking specifically about the experience of a black American in the United States which is going to be different from the experience of a white American in South America.

I realize that professor specifically has not dealt with the issue of being discriminated against as a black man in the US, and that’s impossible. But the statement you made was far too broad and didn’t sit well with me. I’m not trying to pick at you, I just wanted to speak up. I still love you, BB. I felt like it needed to be clarified I guess.

Shit, you beat me to posting. :)

@KatawaGrey Not trying to be confrontational, I’m just incredulous over what you said. That you would be “disappointed” because you didn’t have a black teacher for your African American Literature class, sounds frankly racist. Why would you expect an African American to teach that class? Is the teacher supposed to be part of the coursework,
“to study an African American in order to understand the species better”? I mean maybe I’m reading way too far into this, but it’s vile the path which that sort of thought can take you. It isn’t colorblind that’s for sure. Personal experience is what a teacher should have, and if they don’t they shouldn’t be teaching but to have personal experience you don’t have to be a woman or an African American.

Here you have a teacher that enjoys teaching a subject, who wants to teach it, is passionate about African American Literature and you balk at them because of skin color? Double standard much @KatawaGrey ?

@everephebe: Who said they enjoy it? That they want to do it or that they’re passionate? Maybe they suck and some personal experience might help the course overall. Damn, it’s not like she critiqued the professor for you.

Bitches be trollin’.

@everephebe: Quite frankly, I think you just want to label me as racist. If you read my previous posts you will understand that I do not want to “study” the professor as part of the course, but I think the course would be much more enriching and educational if the professor was able to assess/analyze the literature based on personal experience. The class is about the personal experiences of black Americans which is much more difficult for a white American to speak to. It is one thing to observe, it is another thing to live that which is being observed.

@everephebe She said she was disappointed in the direction the class took, not in the professor. Stop intentionally misunderstanding her.

@asmonet, It was an assumption, that the teacher cared for the subjects they taught, personally I’d kill myself if I didn’t teach courses I cared about. But who is to say that an African American wouldn’t feel stuck with it, and would “suck” at teaching it? They might, I don’t think that would be the case, but it’s a possibility isn’t it?

@KatawaGrey I don’t think you are a racist. I understand that you wouldn’t expect a white teacher to speak to it, the subject that is. I understand that. But give them the benefit of the doubt here. Maybe they were adopted or….. you know. I just think that your thinking on the matter seems like a double standard. I clearly must have misread it though from the reaction people are having. I will right now. I apologize if I have. It seems though to me, I am the misunderstood party. I don’t think I am being understood here. I hope this helps to clarify.

@papayalily I may have misread here guys but I didn’t do so on purpose. I am not trolling as @asmonet has inferred & insinuated. I am shocked though, that some people don’t understand what I am saying. I am saying just because someone belongs to one group doesn’t mean they have insight or lack it. I am wondering why people are generalizing people in general in this topic. I think that tolerance should be for each individual. Case by case. If that is not a popular opinion here then, ok, but that would surprise me. I am not personally attacking anyone.

@KatawaGrey What I mean by my remark is, being white does not exclude you from being the victim of racism.

I would just like to say that I don’t think that white people cannot experience racism. I don’t know where that idea came from. I am speaking specifically in the context of this class which is almost exclusively about the personal experience of the black American. I think I would better understand that experience if the person teaching me actually had that experience.

@KatawaGrey I understand the inclination. I just disagree with it. I too, would probably prefer an African American to teach the course. There, I said it. But it’s a wrong thought. I mean, who I am to judge any one teacher. Every perspective should be valid, outsider, insider. I don’t think it should be just one course though. And I think that skin color shouldn’t mean anything, it shouldn’t mean anything at all to anyone. Do you understand? I’m not attacking you. I realize that words can’t communicate tone or the non-verbal meaning. I’m just saying, are you sure about that thought? Are you saying a white person can’t teach that course or have I got that wrong. It seems like that is what you are saying. If I am wrong, I am really sorry.

I don’t know what your course was like. I am sorry if it sucked. But I don’t think it sucked, if it did, only because the teacher wasn’t black.

@KatawaGrey I agree with you that all teachers should have personal experience with their subjects especially in a class like that. I just don’t think that limits the race of the teacher. At least not as a prerequisite.

@everephebe Ok, first, there’s a difference between “sucked” and “could have been better”. I don’t think Star Wars: A New Hope sucks (by any means), I just think it’s ever so slightly less awesome than The Empire Strikes Back.
How is having a black American professor for @KatawaGrey‘s class any different than, say, taking a class on Stephen Hawking’s theories from the one professor who was actually roomies with him in college instead of all the other professors who have never met him but still studied him extensively? We wouldn’t say that someone is biased or bigoted against the professors who have never met him because they want to take the roomie’s class, we would say that they’re trying to get the most out of the course as possible. Even if a student decided that it was the roomie’s course or nothing, we would simply say that they were just deciding how to spend their money – no one would accuse them of being unfair to the other professors.

@papayalily White doesn’t mean they just don’t understand automatically. That’s is all I was trying to say. What if the white teacher was the roomie in this case?

@everephebe I honestly don’t think even one person here said it did.
If the white person was the roomie, then it wouldn’t make any sense, as they’re two different situations.

@papayalily
Well then, what’s all the fuss about? If that’s true it’s all my fault. I really just was trying to make sure that wasn’t what @KatawaGrey was saying with the whole, biology teacher a frog thing. I must have “misread” but you’re speaking for more than one. I think it was implied. That’s why I said something. Goodnight everyone, must sleep. Sweet peaceful dreams, everyone.

[mod says] Let’s get back on topic, folks. Thanks!

I would prefer a black teacher.

If I wanted to learn about the experience of space travel, I’d rather talk to an astronaut than a desk jockey at NASA.

edit: oops this was about WS not black literature. I think I would prefer a woman instructor.

I see no problem with a man teaching a womens studies class…. One’s gender does make you incapable to learning / teaching about another. Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t most OBGYN’s men?

@mrlaconic I don’t know the actual statistic, but most doctors are men. However, female doctors are most likely to become: OBGYNs, family doctors, or pediatricians.

I prefer a female ob/gyn and I would prefer a female teaching women’s studies class. I agree with @KatawaGrey‘s opinions for pretty much the exact reasons she has stated. (and I assume if a male were having erectile problems he would prefer to discuss the situation with a male doctor, but perhaps I am wrong??)

Why not? I would also take an african american studies class with a white instructor…...lol.

Agreed, @Blackberry. The implied racism and sexism in so many of the responses, and the logical dances performed to demonstrate that ”I’m certainly not racist or sexist, my prejudice in favor of (fill in the blank) is perfectly justified by (fill in another blank)”, and expecting that “any rational person can see this”. I still think the question is a very good one.

And for the record, my last physician was a woman, and my current one is, too. I didn’t seek them out as some kind of bias, either, but it’s working out well.

There are men who know far more about women’s studies than women. And vice versa. We should choose our instructors based on their qualification. However, when people enroll in two classes over a period of time and both were taught by two men or by two women and then consider a third class, it might make sense to deliberately pick the opposite sex.

Of course. I’m male and I took a women’s studies class; I was the only man in the class and the professor was a woman, and it was a good experience.

Men and women have different experiences and bring different perspectives to a topic. Just being a woman doesn’t make a person more likely to be feminist. Personally, I fit the definition of a “radical feminist” more than a lot of women I know, because I question a lot of gender-related power structures in our society, and I know a lot of women who buy into and have internalized these structures.

Women’s studies is ultimately about men just as much as women. It’s named women’s studies because of the history of our culture, because our culture has grown out of a patriarchy in which men dominated the power structures. But power is complex and our society is complex, and women’s studies is as much about men as it is about women—and there’s no reason a man can’t be an outstanding teacher, professor, researcher, or author in the area of women’s studies.

@cazort Great answer. Welcome to fluther.

I agree that Gender Studies is probably more fitting description of what we call Women’s Studies.

Exactly, @cazort… if we’re talking about a college course then the issue is scholarship, not sitting around a campfire singing kumbayah and voting people (men, mostly, I suppose) out of the tribe and off the island.

“Empathy”, “personal experience” and “anecdote” need not apply. “Scholarship” is non-gender and non-race related. At least, that’s true if everything I’ve learned from the fight against racism and for feminism is actually true…

Ah the memories…