Can we have a conversation about sexual harassment in the workplace?

Is there a way you can go over his head? It really sucks to be in a situation like this, and I hate that you feel you have to put up with it. No one should have to pay that price for any reason.

Sigh. In real life, things are not so simple, are they? I am afraid the reality is that if you report this man, it will negatively affect your career.

I would say your options are to wait until he creates the job and puts you in it, and then tell him to shove it.

Or to look for another job outside this one, and then report him in your exit interview.

@Seelix He’s pretty much the ‘big cheese’ in this department and everyone is already scared to even breathe in his presense, as it is (I think he finds me attractive because I never had a problem standing up to him and telling him directly whenever I needed something from him).
@marinelife No, things aren’t simple and I don’t think reporting him will do much (I still have to work here and it’ll get around). I don’t think I’ll be able to put up with it much longer (thankfully, I only see him once a week) and my exit interview won’t have anything to do with this location because I’m working here on behalf of an organization that isn’t connected in any way. As to the job search, believe you me, as soon as the PhD apps are in, I’m on idealist.org like my kid on a cookie – it’s just that this is a much surer opportunity than anything else. I, so far, have shared this with my direct supervisor who just shook her head and said she wasn’t surprised to hear it. She’s not the kind of person who will do anything about it, she’s a passive kind of person.

I would try to politely express your desire to maintain a professional relationship during your time of employment. But do document each and every impropriety and get witnesses if possible. If there is a superior above him, go to them and express the ongoing events and activities and I would expect it will be him that gets fired as sexual harassment complaints are a massive headache for any company! If it breaks bad from there, you for all intents and purposes would already have a very nice lawsuit to file against this Bozo.

@Cruiser I’ve been thinking about starting to write it all down – it just takes some time to process all of this, for me, which is weird. And, hell, I don’t have any money to take any legal action or to get a lawyer and I’m pretty sure he’s got friends in all the right places. He moves mountains in this town.

I don’t know how big a company you work for; is there an HR department? This is much more than a hostile workplace; it is an implicit quid pro quo because of the potential new job. Ask an HR specialist what the process is if you become aware of a quid pro quo harassment situation. And you can always call the National Labor Relations Board to ask them what to do to protect your job.

And maybe call an employment lawyer to see if they have a free consult. Many do.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I guess if you have to put up with it a while longer, you can take heart in knowing that you won’t let him take advantage of you any further. Sadly, there are a lot of women out there who either don’t realize the situation or its gravity, or are too afraid to even acknowledge it. I really hope you get out of there soon and that you give that fucker a piece of your mind once you are.

@zenvelo There is HR at my organization but they have no say in terms of anyone working in this location (where I come in, as an outsider, to provide services to clients). I might discuss some of this with another person here and then, perhaps, another supervisor but even thinking about all of this gives me anxiety. As to my current job, he can’t do anything to it – it’s just this new job that I can have that he can give. Hmm, I might give an employment lawyer a consideration, thanks! And thank you, @Seelix.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I wish I could provide firm solid advice but I do think you should talk to an attorney here. If what you are describing is even ½ fact…there are tons of lawyers that I’m sure would pick this up pro-bono. I would even call one now for a free consultation. Try this link

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I so sorry you’re going through this. Some men are dicks.
I worked for a large company with strict SH rules. It had to be documented. But before it was called SH you had to say “no”. So, if you write things down you should include how you discouraged the action. ‘Pulled away”, or said “no thank you”, “tried to ignore.”
Think of it as everyone gets a free throw. It is up to the recipient to say “no”, then the free throws end.
For example, if a coworker comes up behind you and massages your neck you can say “that feels nice” – not SH. If you say “please stop, that makes me feel uncomfortable.”-not SH. But, if it happens again after saying you felt uncomfortable that is SH.
Don’t lead him on. If he gives you the job under those conditions, your life can become even more miserable.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Sexual harassment is against the law. You could consult a Federal official in the office of the EEOC rather than a personal lawyer.

@Cruiser Thanks for that, I actually submitted my case to a law group – let’s see what comes of this. Agreed, @worriedguy – I do have to say no even if I firmly believe it is sexual harassment nonetheless, because it is outside of what is a normal professional boundary.
@marinelife What is that office?

What if he told you he wanted sex or you wouldn’t get the job?

Well, does it look like it’s going to get to that? Are you going to wait until then to quit? Are you going to put up with the escalation? The invitations to dinner? Or the need to have you work with him late at night on an “important project?”

In Philly, the head of the Housing Authority just lost his job due to allegations of sexual harassment. He was a very powerful guy in town because he made things happen. I think we’ve stolen one of your housing guys as a replacement. Temporary for the moment.

After he was removed from his position, half a dozen other women showed up to sue the city because of sexual harassment by this guy. It turns out that his HR department had quietly settled several suits before this all came out in public.

Do you think you’re the only one he has done this to?

Girl, believe it or not, you are a role model to me. I have admired your fiery willingness to fight for issues you believe in. I believe in your righteousness. This guy is an asshole and he needs to be taken down.

There are ACLU lawyers or even Legal Services lawyers and you should at least talk to them to see what you can or should do. There are probably other women he has done this to, and you should see if you can figure out who they are. They may have been fired. Your supervisor probably knows.

You understand organizing (I think). You know what you have to do to win this. And you also need a plan for if you get fired.

One step at a time. You’ve taken the first—asking for advice. Keep on going. You can do it!

You need to find some dirt on this Arsehole, you need to formulate a backup plan too, is he married does he dote on his wife & kids, you need evidence to scare him off… I know it’s sounds mad but you need to play as dirty as he is, just be very careful….. Have you got voice record on your phone, camera etc?? set it up with a trusted colleague to catch this parasite out…… :-/

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Here you go.

Here is EEOC’s section on sexual harassment in the workplace.

I’m a vindictive bitch sometimes, so I think I’d try to find a way to go over his head and report this behavior, while ensuring I kept my job, and possibly even find a way to still use his connection to get into the new job while ruining him in the process. Threat of lawsuit is always an option. Not sure how I would precisely manage it all, but honey you’re smart, you’ll figure something out!

@wundayatta I think his behavior might escalate, yes. I think he is the very cliche sort of creep that is probing right now, so to speak, to gauge how much I will take and that I will indeed say nothing. That’s why I feel disgusted at myself because I can see what he’s doing and how normal this all is to him. And I guarantee you he does this to plenty of other people, which is why I wanted to talk to another colleague here who is a good connection to me. At this point, I wasn’t consdering legal action, this is all overwhelming to me, to be honest. Thanks, @marinelife and @WillWorkForChocolate. @Scooby – I do have dirt on him and personal details about his family (told from a different source). I haven’t considered recording this harassment. Hm,..

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Maybe you weren’t considering legal action but I sure would be. That’s just me though… if I feel threatened, I will immediately take action. If the wrong person touched me, I’d have his ass in court asap. Or I could just forgo the whole court thing and break his hand with promise of legal action if he does anything else stupid. But like I said, that’s just me, lol.

@WillWorkForChocolate I know, that’s me too, for other people (when I help them with these things). Besides, I never had to deal with this at work.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I once had a boss tell me that if I did a few certain things for him, that I’d get a raise. I got him fired instead.

@WillWorkForChocolate Good for you!

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Yeah, it was a real kick watching him be escorted from the building.

Sue him and you won’t need the job.. Less than half joking.

Bah, so lame and I’m sorry you have to worry about this.

I think @worriedguy has a good point, you really need to let him know it’s not appreciated before much else can happen. I’m not saying he’s confused, but it’s just too easy for him to say he didn’t know it made you uncomfortable. Everyone has different standards.

I worked with a woman who was very stressed out when people gathered to sing happy birthday to her. She felt like people were closing in on her and it triggered a panic attack. Again, I’m not comparing his advances to singing happy birthday, just saying everyone has different triggers and thresholds.

Conceivably he could think this is “getting to know you” before considering you for the position. This is very unlikely considering you’re in the situation, have instincts that are telling you it’s not the case, and can read the other elements that are going on. But unfortunately so much of that gets lost when you remove familiarity with the people involved and each simply tell your story to a third party. Someone on the outside, who doesn’t know him, could see it as a misunderstanding.

Take away that easy out by telling him it’s not appreciated and hope he gets the message. I’m so sorry.

The EEOC source page that @marinelife pointed out to you is essential. Regardless of whether you are thinking of pursuing any legal action, you should be looking through that to see what kind of record of behavior you should be keeping. The longer and more robust the paper trail, the better.

You are in an odd position – how all of the different levels work with each other seems non-standard…and it is significant whether you are an employee or an independent contractor. And considering that the position you are concerned about is something that doesn’t naturally grow from your current position – it’s unclear how any adverse employment action could be openly shown.

The main thing, however, is that you should start looking into your employer’s policy for reporting sexual harassment. It’s a liability for them not to have something in place so that you can easily begin any sort of discussion process – the saddest part is that most of these situations can often be handled internally prior to any behavior rising to the level where legal action is necessary.

Barring any more specifics about the nitty-gritty…read over your employer’s complaint procedures, look at the EEOC site, contact a counselor, and start a paper trail. I’ll note that legally (but you clearly understand that just because we legally can do a thing in the employment context doesn’t mean that it’s the smartest thing to do, unfortunately) any sort of official reporting of harassment is federally protected behavior (i.e., you can’t be fired for filing a claim).

@iamthemob I am an employee of a non-profit organization that has a legal contract with this private institution in the public service (say, a hospital) which states that I come in and provide our organization’s services to clients. He is not in any way connected to my organization and this new job would connect to this/his work of employment and he might be my boss – super creeped out about that, btw. I know now to write the chain of events down which I will do later this weekend. I will see if those lawyers get back to me and I will mention it to my supervisor again, today.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – In this case, I would look to issues regarding harassment in a pre-employment context.

I would never advocate tolerating harassment – but I will say tread carefully and do as much as you can to CYA.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir In addition to writing everything down try to get some collaborative witnesses that would also a, write things down as well, or b, be willing to testify if it comes to that. From the sounds of it, this guys got all kinds of friends in high places so if it’s your word against his you’re screwed. But if you have a little backup it might help. This sucks.

First off I think that it is terrible to find oneself in a situation such as this. One of the key things about validating a sexual harrassment/ descrimination suit is knowing how the employer and/or state define it. I am not disagreeing that what is going on in your situation in completely not appropriate. Legally, you have to know what you need to show (evidence) harrassment. In some instances, simple physican contact ie. a hug, a shoulder rub, and elbow touch, while likely inappropriate may not be ebough to prove the harrassment. It has already been mentioned in the thread, but in some areas, unless the individual is told that the contact is/was unwanted it won’t be considered sexual harrassment. In that case, the person is likely to “get a slap on the wrist” and be told, don’t touch that person in any way shape or form, by their company. This would probably work our more negatively for you than for him, as he would view you as a “whistle blower” or sorts, but not get any real punishment for what he did. There are some more overt forms or contact, ie. kissing, groping etc. that are less in the gray zone. Just be sure that you know what your goal is before you get to a confrontation phase and you have what you need to back up your allegation, so that things get carried through.

I empathize with this situation you find yourself in, BUT..aside from his overt innappropriate behaviors he is now controlling you emotionally and that adds emotional abuse to the ongoing sexual harassment.

I say fuck the job and be the one to stand up to this bully!

I have long ago learned that there is NO person, job, relationship, friendship, situation, that warrants abuse.

I would calmly, but firmly, confront this guy and tell him that the jig is up and that you are fully prepared to follow through with a formal complaint if he does not change his errant ways and that you are documenting his off-putting behaviors.

Ya know, one door closes and another one opens…never allow yourself to be controlled by fear, you WILL survive and move on to better things.

This is EXACTLY what abusive personalities of all kinds count on, controlling you through fear.

You are far too strong and smart of a woman to allow this Simone!

Is it possible to secretly record his suggestive comments?

Just recording isn’t going to do it. It has to be done after you say “no”!
Absolutely, you have to let him know this was unwanted and makes you feel uncomfortable and document it. Harassment begins after the person says “no”! My office was a huggy kind of place. In our European office people would kiss a greeting. If anyone could just say they were hugged and harassed, we’d all be fired. You have to clearly state that magic word “uncomfortable”.
Or something about a STD being almost cleared up. (I say that only partially in jest.)

Hey Woman! You’re Simone-De-Freaking-Beauvoir! You’ve got more balls than this numbnuts who has to resort to coercion to get laid! Look at the advice you’ve give countless other jellies here. You can do this. Look in the mirror! You’re SDFB!

I’m just saying it might be good to have something recorded. I know it couldn’t be the total basis for a case.

@worriedguy I was thinking the same thing. If it happens to Simone, how frigging hard is it going to be for a mere mortal. This is some powerful shit.

I am wondering if I should email him or tell him to his face to stop the touching and the comments. Is it better to have it in email form so that I can prove I made an explicit attempt to tell him no? I feel like he’s a dinosaur, though, and would just be like ‘what email? I don’t even look at a computer.’ Otoh, if I tell him specifically, it’s just words. I feel like poop about this whole situation, like a damn statistic.

I’d expose the creep for what he is and in the presence of others as well! Grrrrr!

Seize your POWER!

Aside from controlling through fear, what these types fear the most themselves is being exposed, humiliated, and THIS is YOUR ace in the hole girl!

I just filed a complaint with Fed-X for being harassed by a delivery guy a few weeks ago whom lied about mis-delivering my package to return to my home a second time in the same afternoon to continue his attempts to hit on me.

BULLSHIT!

His JOB was to deliver my parcel NOT to make conversation and try to pick up on me, and then, ignore my obvious dis-interest.

When I caught myself locking my ranch gate that evening , well…that was that…nope, time to take the bull by the balls! lol

@Simone_De_Beauvoir First off don’t feel like shit. He’s the one being a creep and using economic muscle to take advantage of you. If you use E-mail, print a hard copy and leave it on his desk maybe. Do you have any nonemployees in the workplace? They might make a good witness. Keep your head up.

I’m going to step in devil’s advocate style and state…although I have faith that @Simone_De_Beauvoir‘s assessment of the seedy nature of this person’s behavior is accurate – what if it’s not? There are plenty of people who, for one reason or another, don’t know how to act.

Harassment legislation is there to ensure that there is recourse for those who have been mistreated. I wince when people wield it or indicate an intent to wield it more as a sword than a shield.

Any company worth its salt has guidelines for reporting and dealing with harassment complaints. The HR department should be utilized whether or not you feel 100% as many situations can be handled quickly because it may boil down to a misunderstanding. And if not, it may be behavior the person simply needs to understand and can keep in check.

But each time that harassment claims are pursued as if filing a claim is the right of someone who feels as if they have been harassed before other parties, including the alleged harasser, are brought into the discussion clog up the system. Consult, consult…and also, listen, before any filing that can’t be retracted. You can document yourself fairly well.

@iamthemob My gut instinct says that he knows exactly what he’s doing but you can’t take my gut instinct to court. I have to say something, I know that – it’s just difficult and as @Adirondackwannabe points out..if it’s difficult for me, imagine how it is for others. He is your usual big-headed money-maker..you know, the kind that feels he’s entitled to people’s money and bodies and time, etc. I work with a lot of people like that but the rest have some sense to never touch me or speak inappropriately to me ( I know they speak about me, behind my back). I have to think about this, I have to run it by my supervisor and I have to write everything down. I left the place for today and am at a different location, for now.

@iamthemob

I agree with you, to an extent..BUT….I think anyone KNOWS when they are crossing a line, and they choose to gamble on the outcome.

Positive re-enforcement so to speak.

If this boss has ‘gotten lucky’ in the past he will continue to utilize the same tactics that have proven successful before.

Same with the Fed-X guy.

It’s a numbers game for a lot of these types and I believe they know when they are crossing the line, but they just don’t care if they think there might be a chance, that is why they continue to do what they do.

@Coloma Gosh! We love our FedEx guys. Years ago we actually had them misdeliver a package of gun parts to the wrong house. I called the sender, Numrich, and they immediately sent a second package. They figured the first one was lost in snow. They investigated and the slip said it was “in the garage near the dog”. We don’t have a dog. I called the neighbor ¼ mile away and asked if there was a box for us in their garage. Two weeks later, there is was! We all have legible house numbers now.

@worriedguy

My expereinces have always been positive too, but, this guy was a temp./seasonal employee and his behavior was very disconcerting and unprofessional.

He returned to my home to tell me he was off work and then continued to loiter, and make comments about the ‘cuddling’ factor of the foam beanbag love seat he delivered. Not cool!

@Coloma OK, You got me. That’s creepy! Yuk! You have to tell him that is not appreciated.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Let us know how things work out. I know a few people exactly as you described this guy, arrogant idiots with power. Good luck.

So I told my boss, she said “I am so sorry to hear this. You’re just going to have to tell him to stop.” I’m in the middle of the holiday party (which I hate anyhow) and this isn’t helping. I’m going to try to get away.

I’m with @Coloma on this one. Tolerating this is so not you. You live in NY, right? He is employed, right? Corporations have very little tolerance about this, due to law suits. Chances are they will want to address this behavior ASAP.

This is my suggestion. Whenever he approaches you inappropriately be as loud as you possibly can. Why are you touching me? Please leave me alone. Make everyone around you aware of what is going on. When you see him chatting with someone go up to him and say, “hey, when you came up and rubbed my shoulders the other day, I didn’t like it. Don’t do it again.”

edit: now the person that you told is legally liable for what happens from now on. Your case is getting better and better. Before you leave, let her know this.

CA has strict SH laws. I’m sure NY does, too.

@psychocandy No, it’s not me, but I need work – that is no longer an option or a joke. We can’t afford basic things and I can’t afford not to have work in 6 months. I know how it sounds, though. The more I talk about this, the more I will be able to do this next week.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I’m glad you said something on here. It helps me out to when I have someone to talk things through.

@Adirondackwannabe Exactly. I do wish more people would share their own stories, though.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Sadly, I have to confess to watching without intervening. I wasn’t asked to help but I didn’t do anything. I’ve learned from your story.

@Adirondackwannabe That’s good, :) I’m trying to learn something too.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Tough way to learn. :(

This is a crappy spot to be in, you could:

File a harassment complaint now. Your company many have a system where a person must be written up x number of times before they are disciplined, usually the person just gets a talking to and signs a form. Filling a complaint now will almost definitely keep you from that job you want. You have to also consider the minute chance this person doesn’t want you to have that job and is being creepy to discourage you/make you quit or whatever.

Weigh how sure you are you’ll get this new position and if you do, will you have increased power/clout so when you file a complaint (he/she probably won’t let up) then maybe your job would be safer. Do you think you’ll have enough power in the new spot to chance this?

I don’t know how brave I’d be confronting the person directly without being ready to backup to file an official complaint, preferably with some witnesses who will be willing to write and sign a statement.

This has happened to me, I was seen by coworkers and so the complaint was made on my behalf but all they did was write up the person who then proceeded to brag to everyone nothing would happen to them and to talk further horrible shite about me. I had no promotion in jeopardy like you, in my shoes I’d take the promotion because my family needs it more than my sense of self justice. It’s a shitty feeling but that’s just what I’d do because of my needs. Good luck in what you choose.

Wow…this speaks exactly to what happened to me this evening at our work Christmas party… one of my colleagues (whom I have never trusted or felt completely OK around) was letching on the few females (including me) that work in our workplace… we had a conversarion (non related to sex or harrassment) wherein he tried to make me ‘spill the beans’ about some toxic people at work who I was already convinced disliked me, and tried to make me confess to disliking them too… I instinctively distrust this man, along with most others at my workplace. I feel he is a slimy piece of work.

I would add that he is not a manager or my superior as such, though he has close connections (I suspect) with people of influence in our workplace… the man has been rather uncomfortably intimate with me this evening… matters of putting his arm around me, a kiss on the cheek, etc… I have similar concerns, Simone, in that I don’t feel entirely confident or retribution-free in seeking some kind of resolution on this…

I would also add we work in a VERY male-dominated environment… the gender ratio is about 40 men to 6 women or so… so maybe 1 in 7… and there seems to be a consensus, even among female staff, that this type of thing is “OK”.... though I doubt that it truly is for all of them… this seems to be accepted by most male and female staff…

My aim here is to share a similar experience, rather than to seek a resolution. I think that, in this context, truly, you have more guts in confronting this than I, as i know not where to proceed or even whether it is a wise idea… I have a feeling that talking to any of my (entirely male) group of superiors would result in me being told to ‘toughen up’ a bit or some such….

I am not asking for advice so much as sharing with you a common experience where I feel that I would not be taken seriously… it seems in your situation like there may be more potential for that….

In any case, I appreciate and look forward to the feedback of you, Simone, and other Flutherites to my comment here… I do not write here very often but I felt compelled by the relevance of your question to my evening.

Is there anyone else who can help you to a new job? If this guy is enough of a creep to sexually harass you, he’s probably enough of a bastard to lie about creating a new position for you. My next move would be to get in touch with all of my professional contacts. Even if none of them have a job for you right now, ask to be introduced to anyone who might have a job or a lead. While you’re working on this search, continue to document his behavior and avoid being alone with him- pull a third person into your meetings or communicate him by e-mail when you can.

You said that this guy is the department head now. If he were fired, is there anyone else who might be next in line for his job? He’s got to have a supervisor or someone in a parallel position to him. Try to do some sleuthing through his contacts and find out if there’s anyone else you can talk to about a similar job. Bring up your track record at this organization- be prepared to make the case for creating the same job, but in a different branch. Of if there is anyone at all who has the power to create the same job, meet with them and sell them the idea. If you can get around this guy in the chain of command, he won’t have any leverage over you and you can break his hand. This really sucks, good luck.

I’ve worked in the IT industry for more than 20 years. None of the people I’ve worked with have ever harassed other employees or been harassed by other employees. Not to my knowledge. Maybe this has to do with IT as such. People love their computers and pizza boxes so to speak. I know of at least 30 or 40 people who met at work and became couples. Except in one case they were all from different departments so it wasn’t a problem.

Are there studies which compare sexual harassment between various industry sectors? Is it perhaps more common in the chemical industry for example? Or the entertainment industry?