Will admitting open gays in the military cause problems?

my response to his status “Aren’t there already…uh ‘fucks’ in the military?”

There will not be any trouble.

Gays are already serving. It doesn’t make any difference in their abilities.

exactly! so i don’t know why these people are getting their panties in a bunch…

I think they need to get over their homophobia.

I feel like the only problem with the process of repealing DADT so that gays can serve openly in the military has, both unfortunately and surprisingly, been John McCain.

Gotta love when out-and-out homophobes are oblivious to the homosexuals around them every day. In my last job, one of my coworkers said to me “I don’t even know any gay people”. The general manager is the ragingest bull dyke I’ve ever met, who recently married her partner. This girl has been in the same job for almost 10 years and she can’t accept that her boss is a lesbian?
When I said so, my coworker said in a hushed voice, “No! You think so?”

@Seelix – it’s because some people can’t understand that you can be gay without having public gay sex 24 hours a day. ;-)

@iamthemob – I actually lol-ed at that. I guess you’re right!

There have been gays in the military for as long as there has been a military. Now, hopefully, they can serve without this cloud hanging over their head.

There are gays in the military. There always have been and there always will be. How many of these men who served with honor were gay? Nobody knows for sure, but it doesn’t matter. They were there.

That said, I have mixed feelings about the don’t ask, don’t tell issue, but I approach it from an entirely different perspective that is based on some things a good friend of mine who has studied this issue extensively has told me. (For the record, she’s also as liberal as liberal gets).

First of all, I am extremely supportive of the US military. Additionally, I’m also extremely supportive of LGBT rights.

The problem here, is that while gays have been serving in the military for as long as there has been one, there has also been a problem of hazing and abuse. In addition to gays, there have always been bigots in the military as well. When gays serve openly, they become more obvious targets for these bigots and wind up getting hurt… or worse. Don’t ask don’t tell was a moderate compromise on Bill Clinton’s part to allow gays to serve, just not openly (there were those in Congress who wanted to keep gays out entirely). As @Seelix noted, a lot of bigots are completely oblivious to gay people that are actually around them…. until they come out in the open. That’s when they become a target and people get hurt.

Do I think that gays should be allowed to serve openly? Absolutely. They have the right just like every other American, and I know they would do so with honor. However, the problem of dumbass bigots (who are everywhere) isn’t going away any time soon, and as long as they exist, openly serving homosexuals are at risk. It sucks and it’s not fair, but that’s how it is.

So that’s how I see it, I guess. I want DADT gone, ideally, but I can see why it’s in place- not as a tool of oppression (though that element is certainly there) but as a sort of pragmatic compromise until a more effective way of dealing with bigotry comes along.

Here’s the thing – the fact that homosexuals can now serve openly in the military doesn’t mean that all of them will – most may come out eventually, but many might not really come out ever.

I feel like if these individuals feared that they might put their unit at risk if they revealed their orientation, they as responsible members of the military would not do so at that time.

DADT repeal simply means now that the military cannot discharge them solely for engaging in homosexual behavior, or admitting or stating that they had. That’s really it. Beyond that it doesn’t mean anything really – and I think that we should trust or military men and women to be able to understand if and when they should tell their fellow soldiers about their love of cock and/or vah-jay-jay.

@iamthemob – “the fact that homosexuals can now serve openly in the military doesn’t mean that all of them will”- I’m picturing a huge horde of flaming homosexuals descending upon the army office… and it’s fabulous.

This discussion makes me think of what Lewis Black said on the Daily Show (I can’t find a clip, sadly): We need boots on the ground! And if some of those boots are Prada, I say: FABULOUS!

It will be a problem…for the gays. If you want to “OUT” in the military….and we are talking here about the fighting troops, not the administrative paper pushers or the generals, who do what they’re told to do on social things…they have a huge pension they want to protect and they are only a few years away from it.

For the gays among the fighting troops it’s like putting a target on your back. Combat is not a well organized “feel good” party. And it’s a great place to shoot in the back someone you do not like at all. You need to be real real real good buddies in combat…..and homosexuality, regardless of what one might say in politically correct company, is a divisive force among alpha males…who make up most of the combat troops.

It will only cause a problem if we also allow openly bigoted people.

Another good reason to shun face book. Or, as @Symbeline would have it; assbook. Shuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnnuh!

@plethora – I find the statement that being gay in on the battlefield is like “putting a target on your back” one of the more insulting things I’ve heard said about the military. The military is a microcosm of society, so of course there will be issues. And of course, it is a highly divisive alpha male environment at times. But you know, there are women there now too. And that was okay. And blacks. And that was okay. And they’ll be okay with the gays, I’m sure.

To say that our service men and women would kill people because they were out ignores, also, all the current empirical data we have regarding out members from the past where it was clearly an issue, and those with violent tendencies toward homosexuals would have felt comfortable about doing whatever they wanted to a gay man they hated because, technically, they were traitors…or at least fired.

The below is from the recent Pentagon report. Have you read the whole thing yet? It’s here(secure-hires).pdf – and it’s very encouraging:

when those in the overall military were asked about the experience of working with someone they believed to be gay or lesbian, 92% stated that their unit’s “ability to work together,” was “very good, “good” or “neither good nor poor.”18 Meanwhile, in response to the same question, the percentage is 89% for those in Army combat arms units and 84% for those in Marine combat arms units—all very high percentages.19 Anecdotally, we heard much the same. As one special operations force warfighter told us, “We have a gay guy [in the unit]. He’s big, he’s mean, and he kills lots of bad guys. No one cared that he was gay.” 20

Here is an empirical report regarding much of the pre-DADT period, as well as the period itself.

I’ll rely on the above, and expect that the military members understand that they need to put the needs of their unit ahead of their bigotry in the war context…basically, I’ll think of them as soldiers, and not murderers.

Myself and several of my flight members were talking about this very subject just last week being that the vote was coming up in the Senate. What we considered was that a hazing / harassment problem might end up being more prevalent in services such as the Marines and Army because they tend to have a more macho outlook in their types of infantry career fields as opposed to other services. We thought maybe the Navy would take it in stride because they’re the service that’s the brunt of gay jokes a lot of the time anyway. As far as the Air Force (which my flight members and I are all members of), concluded that we might be the service that would be the most impassive of any changes that might come down being that we’re considered the most laid back and easiest service of all of them.

In our unit alone, we’ve had several gay people serve that I’ve worked with in the last 12 years of my time there. They’ve all been upstanding service members that do a very good job, observe the core values of the Air Force, and always give 100% in their efforts to support the squadron mission. If I had to deploy overseas with any of them, I wouldn’t have any reservations about it whatsoever and I’d welcome the opportunity.

Like others have already said, you’re going to have your bigots and naysayers no matter what you do to discourage them and that’s just a fact of life. The military is going to have to decide on what disciplinary procedures are going to be set in place also for such incidents such as hazings, harassments, and assaults and it won’t be easy because you’re going to have conflicting opinions of individuals in the chains of command in all the services on both sides of the issue.

The last thing we considered also is the question of how benefits will be given to gay individuals who happen to want to get married while in the service. Being that some states don’t support gay marriage, and I don’t currently know what the military regulations are on this, we thought it might be problematic and this would be another issue that has to be addressed in the highest echelons of military leadership when DADT finally disappears for good.

Whatever happens, I’m hoping for a solid and smooth transition with this new policy and new era of my military future. I’m all for having gays in the military and hope that they will embrace their enlistments with the same dedication, pride, work ethic, espirit de corps, and professionalism that I’ve seen in the gay members that I’ve already had the pleasure and honor of serving with.

@Bluefreedom – I feel like you’ve said it all, and I comment again only to say thank you for the above, and thank you for your service.

@iamthemob. You’re welcome. I thought your contributions in this thread were great.

@Bluefreedom

Great response, bro. Good exposition. In the Army, I think that after a few guys wind up in the brig, the guys will all get the message: adapt to new circumstances.

@iamthemob The study you are referencing is heavily biased toward homosexuals in the military.

@plethora – which study? How was it biased? And what is the support for that?

@Bluefreedom

As a supporter of gay rights, an opponent of DADT, and a Navy veteran of the Vietnam War, I cyber salute you and your GA!

Yes I can see one problem, we might start winning wars, because of the solidarity and unity the armed forces will have if “don’t ask, don’t tell,” is revoked.

In terms of actual operations and efficiency, I highly doubt anything will change. As has been said, there have been gays in the military for as long as there have been militaries. If there are problems, and I’m hoping there aren’t, it will likely be during the initial transition. I feel like the people prone to uber-macho behavior, hazing, and violent bigotry might flip out. However, seeing that I doubt there will be much change in soldier flamboyancy and outness, I think things will be mostly fine. And then, after some time, people adjust.

there will probably be some transitional problems in the “bravo” MOS’s. These are our fighters, our…killers. It’s an overwhelming macho culture and it has always been that way. It’s where young 17 -19 yr olds go to be macho. In the officer corps where the personnel are always going to be better educated there won’t be much change. Administrative jobs and behind the scene people. Its probably going to be a rough run for a young gay man/ kid signing up for infantry and I’m thinking there won’t be many of them going for those positions anyway. For those who are going to get your knickers in a twist at what I posted here and feel the need to “correct” me, could you at least make sure you have served in the military…like I have. When I mention military I’m meaning combat arms, not Remington rangers who ride a desk for a living.

Considering how many sailors call each other “cocksucker” already, I don’t see it being an issue. Hell, there were a few that really were gay, and it was less “Don’t ask, don’t tell”, and more, “We don’t need to ask since you are such a flamer!”.

But at the end of the day it didn’t matter. They were just as competent in their jobs, and just as trustworthy in a casualty situation as any straight guy. I mean, when you are fighting a mainspace fire then there is more on their mind than staring at your ass, and the same is true of a ground-ponder in a firefight.

What do you call a gay officer in the Army??

“SIR!”

@zenvelo I thought that was the Air Farce…

@zenvelo

What do you call a gay, FEMALE officer in the Army? : )

Sir?

@CaptainHarley

Since I’m no longer in the military, I’d call her by her name or whatever she wanted, although I’m sure she’d prefer that I not call her at all. :-p

Thanks @CaptainHarley & @Brian1946. Happy Holidays, guys!

LOL! Good answers! You would call her “Ma’am!” Just like that colonel called Nancy Pelosi “Ma’am” and got chewed out for being proper! LOL!

@Bluefreedom and all my other friends on here… MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! : ))

And may the New Year be kind and generous to ya! : )

Why are you friends with this guy on FB?

I’ve just known him since like 6th grade