Is it possible to be genuinely mentally unstable and coldly calculating simultaneously?

Certainly, they’re not incompatible.

Chances are good that the emotional stuff is a truckload of BS – though she may still have other problems.

Yeah. It’s really, really, really common. In fact, you almost can’t have one without the other. The scheming is an attempt to get a small amount of control over a life and person she feels she has no control over.

@Nullo Thank you. I’m very torn about the situation because she seems so aware of what she is doing and seems to be making such a big show of it. She has two young children and her husband is on the road for work all the time. I find it strange that, if she really is a danger to herself, he’d leave her alone with the kids or her doctor would release her from the hospital. Apparently there was another employee some years ago who actually did have a nervous breakdown and that is the reason they are so afraid to take any action about her. I suggested to my boss that, since accommodating her in this way doesn’t seem to be helping her, perhaps a paid leave of absence would help. She could get help without the burden of having to try to come to work. He said that had been suggested, but she’d threatened to kill herself. I’m baffled. If you can’t handle work, wouldn’t you want to take a paid leave and get help? The situation is becoming very bad for the rest of the employees because they resent having to do her work when she is present, resent her heavy handedness with them and her dishonesty with the payroll, etc. and it’s literally hard to watch her behavior. It’s disruptive and upsetting. At this point she’s being paid big money to not do her job, she has the bosses scared to do anything, including ask her for proof of any of this, and it’s souring the workplace. If I could believe that she was really in trouble, it would make it easier for me to deal with it.

Just because we’re crazy, doesn’t mean we’re stupid. In fact, it is said that people with bipolar disorder are usually very smart.

Her behavior is possible, although it is really borderline. I guess you can’t ask, but it would be nice to know if she is receiving treatment.

If you’re depressed or in a mixed state, things can change dramatically from day to day, or they can go on and on for a long time. People do get hospitalized as well, some of them get into hospitals fairly often.

As long as she’s depressed or in a mixed state, she could easily get depressed enough to be dysfunctional on a regular basis. But to disappear like that on a regular basis suggests to me that she is going a bit overboard. I don’t know why she wouldn’t go out on disability if she could. Although disability is a pain in the ass.

If she commits suicide, it won’t be because of anything your boss does or doesn’t do. She might blame it on them, but it won’t be true. People rarely commit suicide for revenge. Usually it’s because it hurts so much you can’t stand to go on living. It sounds like she isn’t at that point at all.

I don’t know what your bosses should do. Perhaps they need some advice. It seems to me they should talk to her about their expectations of her, and if she can’t perform because she is sick, she should consider going out on disability. There may be a way to also get her to talk about her treatment plan (she is not required to), so that the company can help. It’s not as if you don’t know there’s an issue.

But my concern would be for her and for getting her treated properly. This in and out doesn’t sound good. Having a job is very important and helps folks get better, but using the system can be a problem psychologically. She knows she is doing something wrong, but wonders when the ax is going to fall on her neck. So she’ll keep on pushing more and more until it does. I don’t know if she is doing this consciously or semi-consciously, but if you’re depressed you can be quite self-destructive in a subtle way.

Talk to her. Get her care. Open up a dialog if you can. Then take it from there. The ADA offers some protections to her, and I don’t know how far they go. But I don’t think you are required to have her there if she is not doing her job and you have made adequate accommodations. Sounds to me like she has received more than adequate accommodations.

@papayalily Thank you!

@wundayatta That’s a really helpful response. Thanks so much. I’m not sure what the actual diagnosis is (bi-polar, depressive disorder). I would like to be able to help her, but my position in the firm is not one where I can. She’s the Office Manager and I’m a Paralegal, so I’m not in an authoritative position as far as she is concerned. The reason I have some insight from my boss is because he confides in me. They are so paralyzed and afraid to do anything that they’ve literally decided to do nothing. They really mean it when they say they are going to pay her to just show up (or not). I think it’s a mistake because it’s not helping her and seems to be making things worse. Thus the “pushing more and more” that you talk about.

I’m also worried about the rest of the staff. I’m the oldest (old enough to be the mom of most of them) so they vent to me about the situation. Everyone is upset and frustrated, feels like the firm only cares about her and several are thinking about quitting. Others who have problems (one girl’s grandmother died, another was robbed at gunpoint in her home) find their situations brushed aside because they are able to manage their stress, show up and do their jobs. When they complain that they get no sympathy or consideration they are told “Well, you all are stronger than J is” or “your situation isn’t as bad as hers.” The girl whose grandmother died got docked for going to the funeral because “a grandmother isn’t immediate family” and the girl who got held up lost vacation time to testify at the trial of the gang member who put a gun to her head.

The triggering event for this, according to her, was the death of her mother six years ago. My father died, but because I am capable of handling my grief without it affecting my work, no one even acknowledged it and some people don’t even know about it. They are so wrapped up with her, they neglect the morale and feelings of the rest of the staff. It’s becoming a toxic situation. I’m thinking that if I can better understand her, I can help the rest of the staff when they come to me to vent.

My answer to your question, (before reading the details) was going to be, “That’s the stuff that serial killers are made of.”

@Judi LOL That occurred to me when I posted the question, but I figured once read, what I meant would be clearer.

@Judi

LOL My sentiments exactly.

It sounds as if this person might be suffering from Borderline personality issues.

It’s a painful place to be and I have firsthand experience with finally letting go of a 15 yr. friendship/biz. alliance with a woman who sounds much like your co-worker.

Out of control emotional reactivity, attention seeking behaviors, chaos and drama to the 10th power.

It’s a very sad and painful condition for the sufferer but it also alienates and drives away those close to them, in essence fulfilling their core abandonment issues.

Self sabbotage at it’s finest.

My friend nearly lost her job and alienated all of her co-workers last year while in the midst of a breakup crisis. This woman is 54 years old and is still in the dark about her issues, sad but beyond the scope of healthy folks limits.

There is a ton of info. about BPD online, good luck, these types could drive a saint to kill. lol

maybe she is realizing something about her life that she can’t accept…

@Coloma Thank you. It is very trying and I’m in an uncomfortable situation being somewhat in the middle. My co-workers vent to me and my boss does too. The co-workers want me to intercede with the bosses on their behalf so their frustrations will be acknowledged. In the meantime, my boss alternates between feeling totally sorry for her and thinking she is full of it and if my reaction isn’t in tune with whichever side he’s on at the time he’s venting, he gets irked with me. If he’s feeling sorry for her, I’m also supposed to. If he’s thinking she’s making it up, I’m supposed to condemn her.

Frankly, I’d just like to be left alone to do my job. I may have to find a way to politely tell him that I’d rather we didn’t discuss it anymore. I’ve already told my co-workers that they can vent to me all they want, but I’m not acting as a go-between for anybody. It is hard enough for me to try to understand the situation for myself and deal with it without trying to please or placate everyone else.

Regardless of her emotional problems, mental problems, she is defrauding the company and it is unbelievable that your superiors are allowing her to get away with her manipulative and dishonest behaviors.

Sounds like your boss has his own issues, expecting you to mimc his emotions in the moment.

I sooo feel for you, it may be that you need to look for a new job before you have a breakdown! haha

@Coloma Yes, she surely is. She’s defrauding them, they know it, the other employees know it and we are all supposed to be okay with that. It’s not a good situation. She’s 40 and she has worked there since she was 18, so they feel like she’s family. That is a good thing, however the other employees can never “catch up” to how long she’s worked there, so they feel like they will always be 2nd class citizens and their feelings are valid, given the disparity in how everyone is treated. My boss wants to be both the hero and the go-to/hard-ass and can’t decide which from one minute to the next.

I’ve actually thought a bit about looking for another job. That’s distressing though because when I took this job, I intended it to be the one I’d keep until I retire. At 47, I really don’t want to have to start over someplace else. It’s becoming too much of a soap opera though. I think this situation is going to end badly. Very badly.

@diavolobunneh

It certainly looks that way doesn’t it.

I know it is easier said than done but…you must protect your own well being.
Staying in that environment might kill YOU before retirement. haha ;-)

I started ‘over’ at 43 after a divorce and now at almost 51, you know what I have learned?
There is NO job, person, relationship, friendship that is worth your emotional health.

What a circus you are enduring…I dunno…I sure wish you well. :-)

@Coloma Thanks again. I went through two really awful jobs back to back before landing this one. In many ways, it’s a great place to work, but more and more this situation overshadows everything else. It has become the focus of everyone’s attention when we are supposed to be practicing law. Sooner or later they are going to have to act. Even the most sympathetic (or apathetic, depending how you look at it) employer will eventually reach their limit.

I’ve got to go to bed or I will be very sorry in the morning – just in case there are more responses, I didn’t want anyone to think I’m ignoring them. :)

I’m now following this with my old account. I didn’t know when I rejoined that they could reactivate it. Diavolobella and Diavolobunneh are both the same rabbit. :) Didn’t want there to be any confusion if the answers continue.

She should be told that she can no longer rob from the company. If that is not acceptable, then she should be fired. Enough is enough.

@wundayatta said “although it is really borderline” Exactly. She probably has borderline personality disorder as @Coloma agrees.

That’s what I was thinking reading the description that you posted before I read any of the responses.

What I would do in this situation is to print out information on BPD. Give it to your boss, starting with a checklist of behaviors. Make it clear to him the next time that he comes to talk about it that she is using her disorder to knowingly manipulate and steal from the company. Suggest to them that they make counseling (they can even pay for it if they love her that much) a condition of her continued employment. Either she’ll quit or she’ll go and maybe be helped. Either way, they would be doing the responsible thing by not enabling her behavior and allowing her condition to continue to deteriorate. Not that it likely is (since she’s likely knowingly manipulating them), but they think it is and that’s what counts. Suggest that if she really does commit suicide (most people who are serious about it just do it, they don’t sit around and threaten) it would have been irresponsible for them to enable and not try and make her go and get help from both a moral and legal standpoint. He’s seeking your advice when he seeks you out. Give it to him.

Thank you @klutzaroo That is an excellent and helpful answer and the checklist is a great resource. I also agree that most people who commit suicide do it without years of threatening. They either attempt it or succeed and the general response is “I didn’t see that coming at all” or “I knew he/she was feeling down, but never thought they’d try/do that.” Of course, there are exceptions, but she uses that threat so often it’s taken away any urgency anyone felt when she first started using it.

@diavolobella There’s more than just the one checklist. Google it, as I did, and you’ll find online tests and all kinds of things that might help to prove the point that this might just be something that they need to take action that will move her to action on. It sucks, but inaction obviously isn’t working. Past time to try something different.

@klutzaroo @diavolobella Ok, I just have to step in and say this – don’t give your boss a checklist. Please. Aside from basically diagnosing her yourself (you aren’t a professional, and diagnostics is a bit more nuanced than the checklist would have you believe), you can pretty much ruin this woman’s life by diagnosing her with BPD. BPD is almost never actually the official diagnosis because it’s so extreme – once you’re labeled as BPD, most therapists won’t touch you (they don’t want the trouble), and you’re seen as untreatable. Along with Anti-social personality disorder and schizophrenia, BPD is the leper diagnosis of the psych world.

What you can do is read up on ways to deal with it – ways that pretty good even if BPD isn’t the right diagnosis. You can get Stop Walking On Eggshells: What To Do When Someone You Care About Has BPD, which has a lot of insight into why they act the way they do as well as what you can do about it. What you’ll find out is, she isn’t knowingly using her disorder to screw people over – phrasing it that way makes it sound like some Machiavellian thing where she stays up and night plotting out her next move. Instead, it’s more of a subconscious, gut reaction thing – she’s basically stuck in flight-or-fight mode 24/7 and her emotions are in total control of her actions (but trust me, she’d love nothing more than to be able to act on logic and reason and not feel this way all the time).

He can say she has to get help, and he’ll pay for it, but exactly how much do you want to put into this relationship? By saying that even if she doesn’t do any work and is actively hurting the company, she’s so important that he needs to not only pay her for nothing, but also pay for her to get help, what he’s really saying is that he’s an enabler and her tactics are working – there’s no real reason for her to stop. And you can make someone get therapy; you can’t make them get better. If it were me (and I’ve had my fair share of people with BPD in my life), I’d call her bluff – tell her that I care about her and don’t want to see her die, but I just can’t afford to keep paying someone who doesn’t pull their fair share, and she’s had more than enough opportunities so it’s time to go. I’d stick to my guns (the most important part of dealing with behavior like this is consistency – inconsistency just screws them up more).

@papayalily I wouldn’t dream of giving my boss a checklist. It’s none of my business and I wish he wouldn’t (and my co-workers wouldn’t) vent to me. I just meant it was useful for me personally to look at. I wish he would do the things you mention in your third paragraph. I think her bluff does need to be called. If she really does have a disorder (as of yet, there is no proof for this but her word, which is why I tend to think of her scheming, especially when she’s so capable of applying the rules to everyone else but herself), I hope she will get help. I’m not completely convinced there is anything wrong with her.

@diavolobella

Oh there’s something really amiss with her no doubt.
Healthy people simply do not behave that way.

She has taken ‘dysfunctional’ to a whole new level. lol

I also agree with not enabling her, but that’s your bosses issue as you mentioned.

That one is easy. All the mass murders were. Calculating and psychopaths seem to fit together for some reason.

@1alpha1 Yes, but that doesn’t really relate to the specific situation at hand.

@1alpha1 Yeah, but not all sociopaths are serial killers. Not all f*cked up people are sociopaths. And hell, most serial killers don’t like that they kill people, and keep trying to get caught so that they’ll be forced to stop – it’s a compulsion.

This is a terrible thing to say I know but she reminds me of my ex wife. She was that same mix of emotional volatility and cold calculation. She retired early from the Army Corps of Engineers on health grounds and she got her superiors there into some trouble as they hadn’t heeded her requests for special treatment due to her health problems. She kept all the emails she had sent to them and she had documentation from health professionals and counsellors and essentially she got the better of them. Your co worker may not be of the same type but I would be wary and do everything by the book. It sounds to me that she has to go. The company doesn’t exist for her benefit.

Manipulation is in the manual for Bi-Polar, and manic depressive disorders. Any jaded old-school workhorse psychiatrist will tell you that… But for some reason they never seem to tell their patients that?

*Remember the old rule, “If you think you’re crazy chances are you’re not.” Have you ever seen the show on The science channel where they rate evil in criminals by a number system?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Minds

It gives a pretty good example in demonstration of how severly ill or evil a person is.

Hmmm… I have been thinking on this. Quite possibly, if the two are seperated, she may just be a constant cold and calculating personality all the time overall, and the disorder shows up as a side effect as a result of stressors, guilt, and a need for acceptance less the ability to ask for help because she probably feels, or has been in some way been made to feel that she doesn’t deserve it? Sounds like a molitoff cocktail if I have ever heard one.

All I can say about this really is the old rule in psychology is, what people are, especially what aspects of the self they can’t control, are usually reflections of what was first done to them. We act out in insane unhinged ways those things that we need closure for, but don’t know quite how to achieve on our own. It is a vicious cycle I think… She sounds like she is in pain, and looking by demonstration, to inflict it, and to be forgiven at the same time.

It’s a weird dynamic sometimes when people are abused. You find that when you grow up in unhealthy unstable environments and other people that you have to deal with in the world didn’t, immediately you feel a sense of either imposed or self imposed alienation.

THe differences show, and are felt, the person KNOWS there is something inherently wrong with them but in being denied the basic steps of life, as in Maslov’s Heirarchy of needs, they lack the skills most other people were given to conclude and be… well… sane. Internally and externally.

and when they are met with any kind of decency or kindness it will always be held suspect with a self defense mechanism intent upon defense from getting hurt.

When your foundations are so badly broken how do you stand strong? This is a difficult person and a difficult situation.

http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/a/hierarchyneeds.htm

Chances are, she too knows that everyone else in life feels she isn’t worth helping because nobody gets personally invested anymore, no one really cares, and this too is a known, understandible condition that will undoubtedly create a need for; defense, calculation, manipulation of needs being met without asking, it is a vulnerable position of need type situation. I think she is a train, about to derail?

Most people just move out of the way and watch. It is unfortunate common knowledge that some enjoy it. She is probably is aware of this too from hard earned experience?