What are some popular misconceptions about history?

• That Moses, and/or the ancient Hebrew religion, posed an important milestone in moral development. (Moses’ laws in the Hebrew Bible are the only example of a religious text commanding genocide. In most respects the Bible’s legal code is a step backwards from the Code of Hammurabi, which for example does not mandate the killing of unbelievers and homosexuals or force rape victims to marry their rapists).

• That the Bible was written in Aramaic, or Latin. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew. The New Testament was written in Greek. Parts of both may have been based on oral traditions spoken originally in Aramaic. Also, some of the oldest OT manuscripts are from a Greek translation called the Septuigent. And it’s difficult to pin down when the earliest OT manuscripts were written as. But Hebrew was the written/priestly/scholarly language, not Aramaic.

• That Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the gospel authors. We don’t actually know who wrote the gospels; the original writings were unsigned and undated. The idea that these four people wrote them is a later church tradition from the second century.

• That the Vikings wore horned helmets. They didn’t.

• *That Christopher Columbus thought the Earth was flat.* Educated Europeans at the time knew the Earth was round; what they didn’t know about were the extra continents.

• That the Spaniards conquered the Aztec and Inca because they had guns. They did have a few firearms, but they were inaccurate and mostly were used to scare the native Americans. The real advantage was that they had steel swords, lances, and armor and rode horses into battle.

• That the founding fathers of America were Christians. (Many were deists, Thomas Jefferson called the Bible a “dung-heap” and compared the story of Jesus’ virgin birth to the myth of Minerva bursting out of the brain of Jupiter).

• That historical sources, especially ancient ones, are even remotely reliable. Up until very recently, “history” was not objective, journalistic, scientific, sourced, or fact-checked. Herodotus reported rumors and legends as facts. Thucydides, probably the highest regarded ancient historian, made up entire speeches and attributed them to important political leaders. The Roman historian Seuteonius reported that the Emperor Vespasian healed a blind person and a cripple. Josephus, a Roman Jewish historian, reported that an army of chariots was seen floating in the clouds, even clarifying that this was not meant to be symbolic or a fable, but a fact. Historical sources and biographers claimed a wave of snakes proceeded Alexander the Great’s march across Asia (iirc), and that he was born of a god. History should not understood by taking these sources at their word, as if the people writing them were objective newspaper reporters.

I read the first three words, @Qingu and I knew that was you. I’ve been round these parts too long.

I was surprised to learn recently that Czechoslovakia was only formed as a country in 1918. I knew it had been split up in the 90s but not that it was foremd so relatively recently.

@Qingu Thats right, about the Vikings.

On following that, I’d like to add that the Vikings were above all merchants, traders, farmers and craftsmen rather than raiders or pirates. (They were that too, but that does not constitute the entirety of these people’s history, as is usually thought.)

That President Obama started the war with Iraq (it was started in 2003, and called Operation Iraqi Freedom in its first stage, by then President George W. Bush)

Or that Iraq was the country that sent terrorists to take down the buildings of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. The terrorists were sent by orders of Osama Bin Laden from Afghanistan and most of the terrorists on those planes were from Saudi Arabia. People forget that George Bush tried to blame Iraq for the attacks because he had already decided to invade Iraq, even before those attacks occurred.

@Kardamom I was going to say that Prez Obama is/was a Muslim, and al-Quaeda is using him as a means to “take down” the US.

There’s quite a handful of people who think the Holocaust never happened.

That Islam was begun in something like, 800 A.D. and hadn’t been around for centuries. That was my own personal misconception, though.

@Dutchess_III Around 600 AD – Mohammed died in 632 AD.

Right @papayalily. I was surprised to learn that!

That Pearl Harbor was a surprise. We have family letters from an Admiral in the Navy (related to my Dad) that he sent to the White House warning of a probable airstrike against Pearl Harbor, most likely in Dec of 1941. The letters are dated June 1941. They were ignored, and he was warned to stop stirring up trouble.

Thinking it is boring.

@JilltheTooth Interesting, and I never would have known. . .

Not what we were taught in school!

But…I wonder how many “warnings” the government gets that never pan out? What if they reacted to ALL of them with a red alert response? Just curious.

@Dutchess_III : Yeah, but this guy was an Admiral in the Navy and therefore privy to a certain amount of intelligence. Damage could have been minimized had he been allowed to warn the fleet about the potential of an attack. The irony is that his son lost a leg at Pearl Harbor.

@JilltheTooth I’ve heard that Eisenhower wanted to enter the war for a variety of reasons, but The People were dead set against it…until Pearl Harbor. But…for better or worse it fixed the depression, didn’t it. And we entered the most prosperous time I think we’ve ever known..until about the 80’s.

You might be interested in checking out this book – I listened to the audiobook on my cross-country road trip last year and I found it really interesting. The one that struck me the most was about Helen Keller.

Basically, when you think of HK, you think of a young girl being taught to communicate.. we focus solely on her life from infancy to that of a teenager. But after that, we hear no more of Helen Keller. One might assume that she settled into a comfortable life and nothing extraordinary happened. SO WRONG!

Did you know that Helen Keller was a leftist radical? I sure didn’t.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation kept a file on her. She was a feminist, an early supporter of the NAACP, and a critic of the House Un-American Activities Committee. Her name? Helen Keller.

Until Keller began working for the AFB in 1924, she openly advocated women’s suffrage and opposed child labor and capital punishment. In 1916, Keller, who was born in Alabama, angered her family by sending a $100 donation and a letter of support to the NAACP. She even joined the Socialist Party. Keller believed that poverty is the root of suffering and inequity. Though much of her life was devoted to fund-raising for the blind, she wrote to a friend during the Second World War that “I regard philanthropy as a tragic apology for wrong conditions.”

In American history, some of the biggest misconceptions are about slavery, President Abraham Lincoln and the War of Northern Agression. I’m always dismayed by the falsehoods and untruths that are taught about the US Constitution and many of the lies like the statement @Qingu said about the Founding Fathers not being Christian. I’m surprised how people believe the government is suppose to take care of you. And people have no real understanding of the foundations of this country and have no real understanding of concepts like freedom and liberty. I’m surprised how many people don’t understand the Declaration of Independence.

@bkcunningham,

Here’s a website with a bunch of other quotes by our founding fathers. Please explain why you think what I said was a “lie.”

I’m also interested to hear about the so-called war of northern aggression (I was under the impression that the South started it by firing on Fort Sumpter, because they didn’t like the result of a democratic election) and misconceptions about slavery.

However: Abraham Lincoln: totally a racist. He wanted to send the blacks back to Africa.

@Qingu He wasn’t a racist according to his time. He did say he didn’t think any black man was his equal..that’s the world he grew up in, and that was a ‘known given’ then, but he never said they should be sent back to Africa. He said they were human beings and should be treated as such, which was a pretty profound idea at the time. Took a hell of a lot of guts to say that AND to for president on that platform.

@Qingu ”That Christopher Columbus thought the Earth was flat. Educated Europeans at the time knew the Earth was round; what they didn’t know about were the extra continents.”

This one I find very interesting because when I look back on it, I don’t think I was ever raised to believe that Columbus himself believed the earth to be flat, but I did have this notion that “everyone” back then thought the earth was flat. Of course, that contradicted what I was always told about Columbus thinking he was in India after heading west.

@Qingu I’ll assume I don’t have to go into the history of the North’s Rebublican party, Salmon Chase and William Seward’s influence or the history of America prior to Lincoln’s election and the south’s secession to keep from becoming helpless agricultural colonies to the Northern capitalists. Read Lincoln’s First Inaugural Address, Monday, March 4, 1861. His views on slavery are quite clear. He said he would declare war to preserve the Union. He lied when he said the Constitution contained a perpetual union clause. It didn’t, that was the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union charter which preceded the Constitution. The states were within their Constitutional rights to secede. Anyway, here’s his speech:

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html

That Columbus landed in North America. He landed in Central America, and the Caribbean. Never set foot in the USA.

@bkcunningham I’m just curious, have you read the Treaty of Tripoli?

@Blackberry yes.

@Qingu also, have you ever read or listened to the recordings of Born in Slavery, Slave Narratives from the Federal Writers’ Project, 1936–1938. To get a first hand account of slavery, read all of the interviews you can get your hands on, not just the few that are usually posted on sites that show the harsh injustices to humans at the hands of wicked people.

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/snhtml/snhome.html

Just because the Founding Fathers were Christian doesn’t mean they wanted to establish a religious state or allow it to happen from either side. Their ancestors fled from this type of tyranny and the persecution that came with it. Yet they recognized the importance of human rights, liberty and freedoms endowed to each of us by a Creator. Yet their Christian influence and beliefs are seen in many aspects of this country. Just a few examples on then onto documents that show the religion of many of the Founding Fathers.

Since 1789, Congress has retained a paid Christian chaplain to open sessions and give spiritual guidance to members and their staffs upon request.

I’m sure it is a silly example because most everyone knows the story of St. Paul’s church near ground zero and how it survived the aftermath of the terrorist attacks. That is the church where George Washington and members of Congress walked after he was inaugurated as president on April 30, 1789.

The words of the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the US John Jay, in a private letter to Jedidiah Morse, a clergyman: “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

“It is to be regretted, but so I believe the fact to be, that except the Bible there is not a true history in the world. Whatever may be the virtue, discernment, and industry of the writers, I am persuaded that truth and error (though in different degrees) will imperceptibly become and remain mixed and blended until they shall be separated forever by the great and last refining fire.”

Jay was the President of the Continental Congress from 1778–1779, Governor of New York, tried to emancipate slaves, was an ambassador to Spain and France and helped fashion US foreign policy, co-wrote the Federalist Papers.

Look at the Northwest Ordinance of 1787. “Sec. 13. And, for extending the fundamental principles of civil and religious liberty, which form the basis whereon these republics, their laws and constitutions are erected; to fix and establish those principles as the basis of all laws, constitutions, and governments, which forever hereafter shall be formed in the said territory: to provide also for the establishment of States, and permanent government therein, and for their admission to a share in the federal councils on an equal footing with the original States, at as early periods as may be consistent with the general interest….” Jefferson, though I agree not a conventional Christian, ordered the extension of the 1787 Act of Congress: “for the sole use of Chrisian Indians adn promoting Christianity,” Jefferson’s words.

Just to show a few of the Christian Founders look here and save me the time of the copy and paste.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

.

@bkcunningham So, would you like to share some of those misconceptions about the Constitution, or just rant about how they exist?

@papayalily lol rant? I believe I laid out some misconceptions pretty calmly and clearly in my previous posts. But I’d be happy to give some more examples. I’m always amazed and sort of saddened how some people think the government is suppose to take care of us and provide certain things which people erroneously consider rights.

I’ve heard people use words from the Declaration of Independence, thinking it is in the Declaration, and say we have the right to life, liberty and happiness. Somehow this gets turned into what the government is suppose to provide for its citizens. Some of these things I’ve heard people consider rights are food, shelter and healthcare. Empowering others to legislate decisions for you takes away your freedom and liberties.

That was the entire premise of our Founding Fathers in declaring independence from tyranny and “appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions.”

I believe it is a common misconception that the Founders were all slave owners and believed in slavery. It is not true. Benjamin Franklin didn’t own slaves and opposed slavery. He, along with Benjamin Rush founded the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery in 1774. John Jay, who I mentioned earlier was also against slavery. He belonged to a society in New York similar to Franklin’s. John Adams opposed slavery.

There were slaves and freemen in the ranks of the Continental army. Not all blacks in early America were slaves. George Washington, like Thomas Jefferson, struggled his entire life with the idea of slavery. All of Washington’s slaves were freed upon the death of his wife because of a plan he devised to rent them his land and make them paid laborers.

I have more if you are interested.

That FDR saved the US from the Great Depression.

Seriously? Sixteen years and the worst war in human history? Save us from that kind of salvation.

@CyanoticWasp That’s more of an opinion than anything else. Not sure it really counts.

@bkcunningham, I’ve said before that the reason I sound harsh is because I think facts are important. Keep that in mind while reading this post.

First of all, you didn’t even interact with the quotes I posted. You just ignored them. And you continue to insist that the founding fathers are somehow Christian when many of their most important writings make it absolutely clear that they are not. The “Creator” is not the Christian god. It is obviously the Deist god.

Now, obviously, many of the founding fathers were Christian. I never said that they were all deists. But you didn’t let the facts I cited stop you from believing something that is plainly not true. I think that’s pretty disturbing. I think you need to ask yourself why it’s so important to you to believe this myth that the founding fathers were Christians, in the face of reality.

On slavery. Believe it or not, I’ve encountered views like yours before. “The slaves loved their masters, that’s why they fought for them”; the war was about rival economic systems and states’ rights. My fiancée is from the south, and some of her family feel this way. Her aunt actually took me to the museum of the confederacy.

Okay. Most slaves did not love their masters. Most slaves were treated like animals. They were legally equivalent to animals in most respects. You can point out cases where slaves were treated humanely. That’s fine; I’m sure there were many cases where people showed compassion to slaves. Nevertheless, you are talking about a system that reduces an entire class of human beings to the status of animals. A system where it was legal to whip a human being to death if they don’t want to work for you, to separate them from their children, to keep them without any education, without any say whatsoever in their government.

I’ll ask you directly. Are you actually going to sit there and defend this system? If so, I think you’re a psychopath. I hope you won’t.

Go ahead and claim the south needed to treat human beings like animals because they had an agricultural economy. Nevermind the fact that the south did adjust, after the war, and that most of the south’s poverty is not the result of “not being able to own slaves,” but rather from the punitive Reconstruction. And while I’m not a fan of Reconstruction, let’s remember who started the war.

In fact, why don’t we go back to what sparked this whole tangent, your comment on the “War of Northern Aggression.” Please explain this to me, because this sure isn’t my understanding of history.

Are you saying that the South non-aggressively demanded their legally elected democratic government leave their legal property at Fort Sumter? And that when the federal soldiers of the lawfully elected government refused, the Southerners non-aggressively fired on the Fort and destroyed it, thus non-aggressively starting the war?

I also think it’s hilarious that you’re accusing us of having no real understanding of the concept of freedom and liberty… while simultaneously defending the institution of slavery as not so bad.

Here’s my understanding of freedom: it’s something that fundamentally applies to individuals, not to organized structures like states or corporations. It’s not something that makes practical sense if your “freedom” includes the right to take away other people’s freedom by enslaving them. Also: paying taxes is not a form of slavery.

I sincerely hope we’re on the same page here.

@Qingu I do have to admit I was a little surprised when you presented quotes from a blog connected to a site called Bible Trash.com (The Bible, Christianity, God, Jesus, Trash). Now I don’t have to tell you the pitfalls about pulling quotes out of context without any background or understanding of the full text, right? I could go through each quote and give an opinion, but because of space and time here I will give you my thoughts on the major contributors and some of the quotes you provided.

Before I do though, let me explain to you, despite your ego and thinking everything centers around you, I wasn’t referring to you personally when I answered this question on this forum except with the one exception of address the misinformation you gave concerning the Founders, which was a prime example of my point. To say that I was addressing you or specific other her on your knowledge about freedoms and liberties, well I wasn’t and you shouldn’t take that personally. Unless the shoe fits as they say.

You don’t address anything that I showed you except to say it is wrong. If you look at history and the few things that I present to you and say that Christianity didn’t influence the foundation of this country, you are a fool. You talk about the importance of facts and yet you don’t give anything except quotes taken out of context on an atheist blog. You talk about important writings from the Founders that show clearly they aren’t Christians, yet I don’t see where you referenced any of these writings. If I missed any direct reference of these writings except for the quotes I address here, please correct me.

I think you are probably an educated person. Regarding the slave statements you made concerning my beliefs and putting words in my mouth that I didn’t not say or imply. You seem to grab hold to an idea like a dog with a bone. Why you refuse to look at any evidence presented, and why you want to assume anyone with a differing opinion or other facts to present that may shake up your narrow minded views is a bigot or unintelligent is beyond me. But don’t put words in my mouth. Did you even take the time to listen to or read any of the slave interviews? Okay then. To get on with the website quotes you gave.

The first quotes the website you linked gives are by James Madison. Madison’s religious views and religious activities are vast and also self-contradictory and can be used on either side of the argument of the Christians beliefs and/or religion in the founding of America. Madison writes about his Christian beliefs and convictions encourages his friend William Bradford, George Washington’s Attorney General, to search himself and be sure of his own spiritual salvation: “A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven…” Letter of Madison to William Bradford (November 9, 1772),

In a letter from Madison to Bradford dated September 25, 1773, Madison stated, “I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.”

I can give you more examples of Madison and and his statements on Christians like the 1776 Virginia Bill of Rights which Madison authored. In this document, Madison approved the clause: “It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.” Arguments on both side citing Madison can show proof he served on the Congressional committee which approved, authorized and selected paid Congressional chaplains and then later in life declared the issues unconstitutional in his Detached Memoranda.

In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided a Bible Society in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible. He issued several proclamations for national days of prayer, fasting and thanksgiving. In Bishop Meade’s analysis of Virginian families and churches, Meade stated: “Whatever may have been the private sentiments of Mr. Madison on the subject of religion, he was never known to declare any hostility to it. He always treated it with respect, attended public worship in his neighborhood, invited ministers of religion to his house, had family prayers on such occasions,-though he did not kneel himself at prayers. Episcopal ministers often went there to see his aged and pious mother and administer the Holy Communion to her. I was never at Mr. Madison’s but once, and then our conversation took such a turn-though not designed on my part-as to call forth some expressions and arguments which left the impression on my mind that his creed was not strictly regulated by the Bible. At his death, some years after this, his minister-the Rev. Mr. Jones-and some of his neighbors openly expressed their conviction, that, from his conversation and bearing during the latter years of his life, he must be considered as receiving the Christian system to be divine.”

The next two quotes are also from the writings of James Madison in Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, 1785. It is addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia regarding a consideration of a Bill entitled ”
“A Bill establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion,” He is speaking against direct religious taxation.

Next, two quotes again, James Madison in a letter to William Bradford April 1, 1774. The full content of the letter is important. Madison is writing about a matter concerning the persecuted Baptists and the interceding Presbyterians.

Next are quotes from John Adams to F.A. Van der Kamp and Thomas Jefferson. In the letter to Van der Kamp, Adams is criticizing the clergy who would covert people using the power of civil government. In the letter to Jefferson, your source quotes Adams, “I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved—the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”

Look at the context of this to understand the meaning. “The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.”

As President of the United States, on March 23, 1798, Adams penned a proclamation for a national Fasting and Prayer where he states, “I hereby recommend accordingly, that Thursday, the twenty-fifth of April next, be observed throughout the United States of America as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens on that day abstain, as far as may be, from their secular occupation, and devote the time to the sacred duties of religion, in public, and in private; that they call to mind our numerous offenses against the most high God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore His pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgressions, and that through His Holy Spirit, we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience to His righteous requisitions in time to come; that He would interpose to arrest the progress of that impiety and licentiousness in principle and practice so offensive to Himself and so ruinous to mankind; that He would make us deeply sensible that “righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people.” [Proverbs 14:34].

John Adams, “National Fast Day,” A COMPILATION OF THE MESSAGES AND PAPERS OF THE PRESIDENTS, 1:284–86.

The quote given in your article from Jefferson to Horatio Spafford, “In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot… they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose.”

I am very familiar with Horatio Spafford, who among many other things is the author of the Christian hymn “It is Well with My Soul” and was close friends with Dwight Moody, an evangelist and founder of Moody Church, Moody Bible Institute and Moody Publishers. Jefferson addressed this in his writings Notes on the State of Virginia. It is too long to copy, but here is the text: http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=JefVirg.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=17&division=div1

The second quote from your information is from Notes on Virginia. “Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.”

Notes on Virginia are from Notes on the State of Virginia from the writings of Thomas Jefferson. Searching through the University of Virginia’s on-line archives of Jefferson’s writings and the I could not find this quote.

If you know who the quote is from and the context, I’d be happy to take a look. In the meantime, searching through Jefferson’s writings, I found this from Jefferson’s writings in his Notes on the State of Virginia, Volume II page 210, “A Natural Philosophy and Mathematics; Moral Philosophy, the Law of Nature and
Nations, the Fine Arts; Modern Languages; For the Brafferton. And it is
proposed, so soon as the legislature shall have leisure to take up this
subject, to desire authority from them to increase the number of professors
hips, as well for the purpose of subdividing those already instituted, as of
adding others for other branches of science. To the professorships usually
established in the universities of Europe, it would seem proper to add one for
the ancient languages and literature of the north, on account of their
connection with our own language, laws, customs, and history. The purposes of
the Brafferton institution would be better answered by maintaining a perpetual
mission among the Indian tribes, the object of which, besides instructing them
in the principles of Christianity, as the founder requires, should be to
collect their traditions, laws, customs, languages, and other circumstances
which might lead to a discovery of their relation with one another, or descent
from other nations. When these objects are accomplished with one tribe, the
missionary might pass on to another…”

Also I read through the Library of Congress’ papers on Religion and the Founding of the American Republic and Jefferson’s letters to Dr. Benjamin Rush on The Morals of Jesus (where Jefferson gives his Syllabus of an estimate of the Merit of the Doctrines of Jesus, Compared with Those of Others) where Jefferson said, “Dear Sir,—In some of the delightful conversations with you, in the evenings of 1798–99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of the crisis through which our country was then laboring, the Christian religion was sometimes our topic; and I then promised you, that one day or other, I would give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry & reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.”
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06.html
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/vc006656.jpg

From the Library of Congress, Religion and the Founding of the American Republic, you can read for yourself the documents and writings of the Founders and even church services held in the House of Representatives and executive branch buildings.

Oh, dear, and I was enjoying this thread for awhile. <sigh>

@Blackberry I’m curious, can you tell me the history surrounding the Treaty of Tripoli?

Madison and the other founders doubtless professed to be full-on Christians in public. To do otherwise would be political death, just like today. That’s probably why their statements seem contradictory. Of course, you have yet to show that any of these guys actually thought that Jesus was the resurrected son of God… which is, as I understand it, the point of Christianity.

It’s important to understand what Madison and Jefferson understood as the “general principles of Christianity,” the “teachings of Christ,” etc. They understood Jesus as an important moral philosopher—something many Jews, Muslims, Deists, and atheists would heartily agree about. This is completely different from believing that Jesus is the son of God and the key to salvation.

I mean, we can tell what Jefferson thought about Jesus and “true Christianity” by looking at his version of the Bible. He cut out all of the miracles, and in his version, Jesus dies and is not resurrected. Jefferson’s view of Jesus is basically the same as my own: he was a human moral philosopher with some good ideas, whose cult got corrupted into an illogical religion. Jefferson believed in a “God,” but this God has absolutely nothing to do with Yahweh, the Christian god; he is the Deist god, a detached Clockmaker deity who sets the universe in motion with its laws and then leaves it alone.

I am assuming this is not your definition of “Christian,” right? That you believe that someone must believe Jesus was resurrected in order to be a Christian? I’ve always operated on the definition that this constituted the bare minimum of “Christianity.”

I’ll ask again: why is it so important to you to believe these men were Christians? You did the same thing with Newton. One of my old Christian friends once urged his fellows to recognize that “Thomas Jefferson is burning in hell right now.” He was sick of Christians rendering unto Caesar what is God’s. Why do you need to believe that important people in history were Christians when they plainly were not?

______

By the way, here are some other sources for the quotes, since you didn’t like the first one I googled. Believe it or not, this isn’t exactly a controversial idea, and there are lots of sources:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/founding.html
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html
http://www.anotherperspective.org/advoc550.html

There’s also clearly a range of “Christian-ness” among the founders, just like Christians today. Jefferson is basically like me; his deism is functionally indistinguishable from atheism and he clearly holds the Bible in low esteem. Same with Paine. Adams and Madison, based on their writings, remind me of @mattbrowne—they call themselves “Christians” but when pressed their views are basically Deism, and I doubt you’d get them to admit they think Christ was resurrected. Washington was probably a very liberal Christian. I don’t think any of these men were Christians in any meaningful sense of the word (though other founders were).

@Qingu why is it so important for me to believe that the majority of these men were Christians is the better question? The answer is simply because the truth is important. How insane is it to think that these people who were great orators, philosophers and writers were in the closet with their beliefs? Jus think for a minute how ridiculous your statement is, “Madison and the other founders doubtless professed to be full-on Christians in public. To do otherwise would be political death, just like today…” Yet, according to you, they laid the entire foundation for a nation on non-Chrisitan beliefs.

By your definition of deist, believing in the detached Clockmaker; none of the notable Founders fit that definition. Even Thomas Paine, in his discourse on “The Study of God,” says that school are in error to teach sciences without “reference to the Being who is the author of them; for all the principles of science are of Devine origin.” He goes on to say that, “the evil that has resulted from the error of the schools in teaching (science without God) has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism.”

George Washington said in a speech on May 12, 1779, children need to learn, above all, the religion of Jesus Christ and in learning this, it will make them happier than they already are. Benjamin Franklin’s 1749 public education plan for Pennsylvania public schools insisted that schools teach necessary religion above all other, ancient or modern.

Does that sound like people who believed in the detached Clockmaker?

And, yes, I do believe your hangup on the Holy Trinity definition of Christianity is very similar to the religious teachers, perverters and zealots the Founders spoke and wrote against. May I just suggest you read some of their writings and historic references to them instead of opinions and quotes on blogs.

@bkcunningham @Qingu You two should start a new thread debating this exact thing.

@papayalily sorry. I’m finished.

@bkcunningham You don’t have to – it’s a good topic, just probably needs its own question at this point.

How insane is it to think that people were in the closet with their non-Christian beliefs? Well, Thomas Paine wasn’t. “The christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun.”

Guess what? Paine died poor and socially outcast because of his outspoken views on religion. Are you seriously asking why intelligent people would keep their unpopular views on religion in the closet during the 1700’s and 1800’s? Many still need to today. I bet some of your family members do.

As for the definition of “God,” Paine’s God sounds exactly like the Clockmaker god. The Clockmaker god is indeed the “author.” He writes the book and lets it play out. Why on earth do you think this god has anything to do with yours, the guy who sacrificed his son to himself to save humans from punishment for breaking his Mosaic laws, original sin because of a magic apple and talking snake, etc?

And show me where Washington or Franklin (let alone Jefferson) said the “religion” they’re talking about involves the physical ressurection and salvation through Jesus Christ, and not simply a few cherry-picked morals.

If you’re going to make an argument that these men were Christian, you need to start posting quotes that show they’re Christian. All you’ve done is cherry-pick vague quotes that could, possibly, charitably, be interpreted as having something to do with Christianity, but just as likely Islam or Deism.

Finally, the foundation of America has nothing to do with Christian belief. The Constitution does not mention God. THe Constitution bears absolutely no resemblence to the Bible’s laws. It is in direct contradiction to many of the Bible’s laws, which explicitly do not allow freedom of religion, free speech (blasphemy is punishable by death), or other ideas considered foundational to this country.

If you think the Constitution has anything to do with the Biblical religion, either you haven’t read the Constitution or you haven’t read the BIble.

@bkcunningham Yes, I am, unless you feel I missed something….....Sorry I’m late lol.