Should prostitution be legalized?

Legalizing prostitution would allow us to regulate such that we could remove some of the more onerous elements common to the present situation (e.g., pimps). I doubt this would eliminate the marginalization of prostitutes—at least, not all at once—but it would perhaps help diminish the unwarranted disdain aimed at them. In time, perhaps, they wouldn’t even be marginalized at all (or no more than lawyers or garbage collectors are today).

I think so, and I think Nevada doesn’t go far enough. NV should also allow escorts with agencies.

But I am not sure what the best way to deal with girls who are exploited or are sex slaves, or underage. Perhaps severe penalties for men caught with “illegal” sex workers?

I think prostitution should be legalized provided that special measures are put in place to ensure the safety of the prostitutes. Some measure that should be put in place:

-Brothels. Prostitutes would not live here, but they would meet clients here and only here unless special contracts were drawn up and steps were taken to protect the prostitutes.

-Doctors on premises 24 hours a day. They could dispense birth control and antibiotics if needed and give exams whenever a prostitute needed one. They could also help a prostitute if a client got too rough.

-Bouncers to oust rough clients.

-Contracts. What a prostitute is willing and is not willing to do would be clearly outlined as well as length of tryst and cost of tryst. Also, there should be required gratuities for people working in a brothel, say, minimum 10% of total cost with heavy encouragement to tip more.

-A variety of condoms freely available as well as dental dams, gloves, lubricant, spermicidal foam, etc.

-No walk-in appointments unless the client is already known to the establishment.

Other than all of those, I think prostitutes should get all the same considerations that any other worker gets, meaning they should make at least minimum wage, get mandatory brakes, get sick and vacation days, etc.

It’s legal in Ontario. I don’t know the details, but I know it’s legal, and there hasn’t been a whole lot of fuss that I’ve noticed.

Well, I can tell you that making it illegal in New Orleans was a disaster. Storyville went from an area of opulence and relative law and order to a crime ridden ghetto, as it remains to this day. And there is no evidence that outlawing prostitution diminished the trade at all. It simply put it underground.

We can’t make every bad thing (and let’s assume, for the sake of argument that prostitution is a bad thing) illegal and expect that it will go away. Sometimes a bad thing is a symptom. A symptom of poverty, mental illness, growing up without guidance… who knows. The point is, the government can’t just come along and say, “don’t do this.” Maybe we should make it against the law to be poor. Then we wouldn’t have poverty.

Whether it’s drugs, alcohol, guns, or prostitutes, making shit illegal tends to drive it underground and add a seedy element to it.

In that case, I say legalize prostitution. Make it just like any other service industry, where the sex workers can set their own prices, pay an income tax, and cut out the middleman: the pimps.

@KatawaGrey has some good ideas about the subject as well.

@jazzticity that was tried with poorhouses, workhouses, and poor farms. They didn’t go away in the US until the Social Security act went through. Not sure about the UK.

I’m all in favor of legalizing prostitution. And I’ve got $100 to prove it.

And I’m all for @KatawaGrey‘s ideas, although I don’t think a doctor on site 24/7 is really necessary; I could go for doctor on call 24/7, though.

Sure. They don’t harm anyone.

Yes, prostitution should be legalized. The sexuality of consenting adults is not the business of government.

Sure, it can be legalized, since people are going to do it anyways. As for the second part regarding whether prostitutes would be accepted by society… I doubt that they would. I mean, lots of people are willing to give it away for free, but they are quick to point the finger when someone makes a profit. Look at all the fuss that was made about the girl selling her virginity. Purity doesn’t have the strict stigma that it once did (I’m not saying that that’s a good thing…) yet people are still outraged that someone could make some money.

On the other hand, I don’t think that it’s a good idea to encourage that sort of profession. By making it a legal occupation, what’s to stop kids from thinking that it’s acceptable behavior? The idea of people thinking that sex is worth nothing more than money is disheartening to say the least. Maybe we should keep it under wraps…

How does a regular check up keep them from getting stds? Do you see any motivation for them to quit hooking it just because some asshole gave them an STD?

No. We have enough trouble with that sort of thing as it is.

@cheebdragon Regular checkups don’t prevent them from getting STDs, but legitimate brothels prevent employees who test positive from seeing clients until they have been treated.

@Nullo A lot of that trouble comes from it being a criminal activity.

I wonder what legalizing prostitution would do to our view of women. Would it improve? Think for a moment what we think about prostitutes in general. We already objectify women more now than we ever before in our history. The standard of beauty for women in this country is already unattainably high, and all too often women are valued simply for their appearance. What would happen if prostitution was legalized? We’d get rid of pimps! Eh, I guess that’s good. But we might also start treating women more and more like objects—instead of people.

Also, If I remember correctly from health class, women have a significantly much higher change of getting an STD than men. What if the number of people who have an STD in this country went up by even 5 percent? How would that impact our society? Our health system?

Just something to think about.

@Link – Hate to break it to you, but men look at women as objects anyway.

Do we?

@jazzticity – Ok, not all but a lot

Yep. It should be, with the proper safety regulations in place and everything.

Yes, I think it should be legal because it would make it safer for both the prostitute and the client and the government would get its fair share of taxes. We have to look at the big picture. The truth is, there would be more positive things than negative things coming from it being legal. Prostitution has been around for a long time and it’s not going anywhere anytime soon. Its best if it is monitored and regulated instead of letting it remain in the shadows where it cannot be controlled.

@cletrans2col Speak for yourself.

@Link So, I have a few issues with your post. Firstly, objectification is at the worst point in our history? Really? I suppose it depends on what you define as “our history”, but if we’re talking human, then that’s just… not true. Ancient Greece women were essentially property. For much history until… quite recently, women were considered ‘ruined’ and unfit for marriage if not virgins. Etc Etc. Equality still has a long way to go, to be sure, but this is by far not the worst point in history.

But, that doesn’t really touch on your other point, that legalizing prostitution would cause objectification of women. Because, as far as I can see, it would do nothing but empower women. Allow them to leave pimps that use them as ATMs and care nothing for their self worth. Allow them to choose clients, and to kick out/call the police on abusive clients. Heck, just allow them to go to the police or authorities if they have an issue. All that would happen now is they’d get locked up for being a prostitute. How could giving them more power lead to objectifying them?

@KatawaGrey That’s a pretty nice list. GA

@SavoirFaire In fact, I was referring to extramarital sex in general. Legalizing prostitution would only encourage that.

@Link Also, another question, why would legalizing prostitution necessarily increase STIs? There’s a decent amount of reason to suspect that illegalization of something will increase it’s use, so legalization may very well lead to less use. Prohibition comes to mind, naturally. Hundreds of people died of alcohol poisoning and other alcohol-related diseases during prohibition. Specifically, many more then before and after.

Also, again, legalization could, and should, lead to better health care, with regular screening and medicine as necessary being more widely available.

@Nullo In that case, your answer is even sillier than I thought. Premarital sex is important to a healthy relationship, and some married couples make extramarital sex—including shared partners—part of a mutually satisfying sex life. It’s not always cheating. Different people have different needs.

@BhacSsylan: I was wrong to say our history. I should have said recent history.

@Everyone: It’s probably best for me to stay out of further debate for two major reasons: (1) this is a topic people get super sensitive about, and I don’t to offend anyone too much, (2) people tend to ignore the blatant realities of the world they live in; “the real world,” if you will allow me to use this phrase (is “the real world” considered a phrase?).

It irks me when people pretend not to realize the realities of our society, so I rather just avoid a serious issue like this one unless people are going to be real. And heck, if prostitution becomes legal (I’m betting against it), it’ll be awesome! Competition would be fierce, and the price to have sex with a hot girl would plunge. Although that works for me, is this this any way to empower women? Com’on folks.

@cletrans2col: your response was harsh, but honest.

@Link So, it seems you are a feminist, at least in beliefs if not in name, so i assume the realities you refer to is the fact that women are are still not equal to men in many regards. I won’t debate that (being a feminist myself), but I’m not quite sure where your stance has merit. Legalization of prostitution would have several possible main effects:

1) Lowering of Price: won’t argue with that, it will be more widely available and safer to get, therefore cheaper. But, how exactly is that a bad thing? I assume it has to do with the next:

2) Higher use: Again, debatable. Entirely possible, but again history has shown on other occasions that legalization reduces use (again, prohibition). But, according to you, this leads to

3) Higher objectification of women: So, here’s where i take issue. Many of us are brought up to assume that porn and sex, etc, objectifies women. But, why? Some porn may, sure, but not all, and I fail to see that the very act of sex for money objectifies women. They are still people. If anything, I feel that prostitution would have a better effect, as it involves actually interacting with a person, while porn does not. This could go on for a bit, but i’ll leave it aside as this will already be huge. But this also stems from the next:

4) Reduced violence against prostitutes: This is a major issue now (and violence against ‘sluts’ in general), and legalization would make it far easier for prostitutes to get help when victimized. It would not eliminate it, but we’ve never in our history been able to eliminate violence of any kind. This is no different. People who really do treat the live women as objects to be used and abused will get kicked the fuck out. Right now, a pimp just says “Shut up, bitch. He’s paying”.

And, while there are more, I’ve enumerated them above: 5) lack of pimps, 6) control of clients/acts, 7) increased health care, 8) increased pay, etc.

And, the really big thing, if anyone’s got this far: it would send a very firm message that women are allowed to use their bodies as they would like. The right to use their bodies as they see fit, not society, because it’s theirs. Right now, female sexuality is rigidly defined and controlled. Girls can do this, can’t do this, it’s not ‘proper’ to do this, if you do this you’re a slut or a whore, on and on and on. And this is no different. No, you can’t make money that way because it’s improper/indecent/harms the feminist cause. Sucks to you if you happen to like it, or find it empowers you, as many porn actresses have found (Sasha Grey’s the easy example). Actually, that’s worse, because it means you’re irreparably psychologically damaged, poor thing. You couldn’t possibly want this for yourself.

Just that reason, alone, it would be a pretty huge leap for feminism. So, please, if you would, explain why porn and sex objectifies women, because that seems to be the linchpin here. I, personally, as a guy who watches it, with a girlfriend who encourages it, don’t currently see the issue. I know we’ve been told it, but we used to be told the world is flat. So, what are your reasons?

And if any of this comes off as overly sensitive/not civil, please let me know. I’ll have it flagged and re-write it. I really do want this conversation to continue well.

Legalizing something and giving the government control doesn’t stop the criminal element or abuse. Perhaps the discussion should be decriminalizing, not legalizing. Look at certain “sin taxes” and penalties we have now since the government got their greedy fingers on such things as alcohol, drugs, cigerettes. Just because the government controls these things doesn’t mean there isn’t still a criminal and abusive element to any of them. Now we are turning more and more of our food choices over to the government to “protect” us.

Do you think every woman or man who is going to prostitute themselves for money is going to sign up and get the proper paperwork and pay taxes and whatever else the do-gooders decide they need to do to be “legal?”

@bkcunningham as i mentioned above, just because we cannot stop abusive action doesn’t mean reducing it is a lost cause. There will still be illegal prostitution. There is still illegal alcohol consumption, and there’s breakages of just about every law ever made. Does it mean that measures to try and reduce abuses are always doomed to failure? Should we just give up? Because that’s what you’re suggesting.

Look at abuses of alcohol during prohibition and then before and after. The differences are staggering, with hundreds more, at least, dying from alcohol poisoning alone. We still have abuses, but are you saying prohibition was the better state?

considering that a large portion of these prostitutes are selling their bodies to feed an addictive drug habit, I would vote no. Anyways, I vote no for the same reason I don’t think cocaine and other illicit drugs should be legalized, because of the message you are sending to the general public (especially the youth – that it is okay, even encouragable behavior). Would any of you want your mothers, sisters or daughters to persue such a profession? Would you want to see a whorehouse opening next to your local walmart? Would you rather it be easier or harder to get into that profession? (I would vote harder) That said, I don’t mind that prostitution exists, for some it is the only way that they can get laid so good for them. Doesn’t mean it should be legal though, that would just be capitalism stooping to an even deeper low. It is already legal in Nevada, which is fine because it is contained. But to have it available across the country would be a bad thing.

@BhacSsylan giving up? I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Give up what? Can you provide or point me in the direction of stats of alcohol poisoning before, during and after prohibition? No, prohibition, IMO, wasn’t “better.” Better than what is my question? You can’t legislate and dictate what someone sees as moral behavior.

To me, at least, it is just people with the best of intentions jumping on a bandwagon and making things worse by opening the door for illegal activities. I suppose I give people, in general, more credit for having commonsense and taking care of things on a local, community level without legislating things to death. What do they say, it is the oldest profession?

@glenjamin Yes, many prostitutes currently are in horrible situations. Many are even sex slaves. But, as is seen in Nevada, that situation changes considerably when it is legalized. Those there because of a problem like that can be removed and given help, instead of being ground further and further underground by social stigma.

As for whether or not i would want my relations involved, you should watch this video, it’s an excellent treatment: from raginloli in another thread . Short answer, if it was properly legalized and for the right reasons (she wanted to do it, and wasn’t feeling forced for whatever reason), then no, i would have no issue.

Also, it’s okay it exists, but it should be illegal? I’m having a very hard time understanding that. Either something should not exist, and therefor should be illegal, or it’s okay to exist, and should therefore be legal. Why punish someone for doing something that’s okay? I’m just confused.

@bkcunningham Then I am very confused as to the point of your post, i’m sorry. What’s the difference between decriminalization and legalization? I got the impression from your post, especially the last line, that you were saying ‘it’s always going to be a problem, so this is pointless’

I was asking if prohibition, from the view of consumption and use of alcohol, was a better period of time then before or after. A few random sources (i’m at work and unfortunately don’t have time for a detailed search) cam up with this source:

“By the greatest majority of indicators, the biggest drops in alcohol consumption and alcohol problems actually came before national prohibition went into effect. Those drops continued for about the first two years of Prohibition and then alcohol consumption began to rise. By 1926, most of the problems were worse than they had been before Prohibition went into effect and there were a number of new problems—such as a drinking epidemic among children—that had not been there before.”

and this “However, in 1931, Dr. Snell of the Mayo Clinic stated: “We know now that cirrhosis occurs in only 4 per cent of alcoholic individuals.” He went on to say that alcohol related deaths were only responsible for less than 1.5% of total deaths at the time. The country would soon see a dramatic increase in alcohol related deaths and injuries after Prohibition went into effect.”

And my original knowledge came from HowStuffWorks.com, which is generally trustworthy, though I do not have the direct source right now.

And no, we can’t say ‘you must think this is moral’, but laws and popular culture can help turn the tide, and change something that used to be known as something wrong into something generally considered fine. Homosexuality is finally starting to get to that point.

So, here’s my real question to clear things up: Do you think prostitution is wrong or right? You never actually say, and that may be my issue. What is the ‘illegal activity’ that is being opened up? prostitution, or something else?

[edit] found that source from HowStuffWorks, which has sources of it’s own: The Effects of Prohibition. tl;dr, cirrhosis and general consumption dropped, but alcohol-related deaths (mostly from adulterated liquor) and alcoholism levels rose dramatically. And that’s not counting the effects from skyrocketing criminal activity.

@Link One of my close friends from college worked for a few years as a prostitute after running away from home. I’m well aware of the “realities.” Just because my opinion does not match yours does not mean I am ignorant. You also speak as if legalizing prostitution means that all women will become available at a price—that is, as if all women will thus become prostitutes. This is, of course, quite obviously false. Thus your claim about competition is rather silly. It is also false—and, I must add, a bit sexist—that only women are prostitutes. By thinking of prostitution solely in terms of women, you undermine your own claim to be viewing the whole picture (i.e., the “reality” of the situation).

@bkcunningham Your argument seems to rest on the perfect solution fallacy. If legalization has more benefits than either decriminalization or the status quo, it’s worth considering.

@SavoirFaire ,no, not really the perfect solution fallacy. My thinking is more of the Economics of Prohibition thinking. I’m against the government decree against the exchange of a good or service because of the ramifications and the unintended consequences.

@bkcunningham Perhaps I am confused: are you for or against legalizing prostitution? It seems you are against it, but for decriminalization. This means that the government decree against the exchange of a good or service would continue, though it would not be enforced.

@SavoirFaire I don’t understand what you mean by a government decree against the exchange of a good or service in this instance.

@bkcunningham It’s your phrase. What did you mean by it?

@SavoirFaire I said, “I’m against the government decree against the exchange of a good or service because of the ramifications and the unintended consequences.” Meaning I’m against the government regulating, legislating the buying or selling of a good or service.

I don’t know what you meant when you said, “It seems you are against it, but for decriminalization. This means that the government decree against the exchange of a good or service would continue, though it would not be enforced.”

If it isn’t legislated, there isn’t a decree.

Because regular STD testing has done wonders for the porn industry….

@cheebdragon I thought it was John Holmes that did that.

@bkcunningham Um, okay, so you’re for the complete removal of government involvement? So, not illegal, but no regulations in place? Sorry, but I think savoir and I are simply confused as to what you want. Could you explain your position in detail?

@cheebdragon Um, has it not? It’s an occupational hazard, but much has been done to contain the risk, like risks inherent in any other industry.

@BhacSsylan the government is involved now. If you put a willing buyer and a willing selling together, IMHO, it is up to them. What can the legal system or legislator’s do? What cost do we put into the enforcement of prostitution now? What other costs are involved to the individuals? Giving someone a criminal record and making them pay a fine with money they earned doing the illegal action. Justs seems a little silly to me. I think the government’s regulation of prostitution has helped to create and perpetrate the seedier side of the profession.

@bkcunningham Okay, in that case I’m completely in agreement. That was the point I was trying to make, Prohibition caused many more problems with alcohol then it solved, and I believe the same is true of the prohibition on prostitution. The only issue I have is that I think regulations should be put in place to protect the workers, same as there are regulations to protect workers in any other industry. This, however, is besides the point of the question. So, just to check, the short answer you give to “Should prostitution cease to be illegal?” is “yes”?

@BhacSsylan that is correct.

@BhacSsylan look at the history of prostitution and the decriminalization of prostitution in Rhode Island. The case of Coyote v Roberts comes to mind as does the RI State Supreme Court v DeMagistris. It is a really interesting study in this activity.

@bkcunningham Okay, I was confused. I thought you were only for decriminalizing prostitution, not for legalizing it. Thus my question, since the government currently has a decree against the sort of exchange involved in prostitution in all but a very few places (viz., eight counties in Nevada). Thank you for clarifying.

@SavoirFaire and @bkcunningham Uh, just to ask, since now the two of you seem to get this while I don’t, what exactly is the difference between ‘decriminalizing’ and ‘legalizing’? Because I can’t say I immediately could discern one, and a glance at dictionaries and wiki only gives me that both mean the removal of criminality, essentially. So what’s the difference?

@BhacSsylan Decriminalization eliminates the thread of imprisonment. This can be done unofficially by ceasing to enforce the law, or officially by legally reclassifying something as no longer a crime. Other penalties, such as fines or mandatory enrollment in a treatment program, may remain.

Legalization, on the other hand, is always official and reclassifies something as no longer an offense of any kind. In turn, all related penalties are removed and treatment becomes voluntary or only enforceable in connection with some other offense.

Consider the case of alcohol: were it merely decriminalized, a judge would not send you to prison just for being drunk. He could, however, require you to enroll in a treatment program. Since alcohol is legal, however, you can only be required to enroll in a treatment program if your drinking leads to some other offense (e.g., drunk driving or public disorderliness).

This is how the theoretical distinction works in legal and political philosophy. I’m sure one of the lawyers would tell us that the reality is a bit more complicated than this.

Prostitution in Germany is legal. I don’t see a reason why this should be different in the US. Forcing someone into prostitution is illegal.

Wow, a lot has gone on since my last post. Topics like this always get people riled up. I’m not going to go on and on with this topic because I don’t want people to get offended with my point of view, so this will be my last post here.

First, I’m not a girl, and definitely not a feminist. I think prostitution should remain illegal, but I’m not going to protest in the streets if prostitution becomes legalized. Also, I didn’t say that if prostitution were legal all women would become prostitutes. That’s nonsense.

Right now if a guy might now one or two prostitutes, if at all. His choices of prostitutes are limited, so if a prostitute says $500 bucks, he can’t say “No thanks hun, I’m going to call the fourteen other prostitutes I know and see if they’ll give me a better price.” If prostitution were legalized the prostitute workforce would certainly grow (especially now, since the economy isn’t doing so well, and many people are desperate). Men (or women) looking for a good time would be able to shop around. Competition for customers would become fierce, and the price of good time would eventually drop significantly.

Ah, the hell with it. I don’t feel like explainig a bunch of stuff that I feel should be obvious. If you were at a party with your family and you asked a pretty girl what she did for a living and she said “Oh, I’m a prostitute,” you wouldn’t just nod your head and say “Oh, that’s amazing.” Prostitution isn’t legal in Las Vegas because the people of Nevada feel that prostitution empowers women. Fact is, a big reason prostitution is illegal is because most Americans don’t want it to be legal. Most of us don’t want to grow up in a world where our little daughters (or sons) can see women (or men) selling their bodies and know that this will be an option for them when they get older.

Now I’m just ranting so I’m going to stop here. Hope no one got offended =X. Anyway, I’m outta here.

@Link I did not claim that you made any explicit statement to the effect that legalizing prostitution would mean all women would become prostitutes. What I said was that your discussion of the supposed effects of prostitution (unwittingly) assumed such, or only made sense on such if such an assumption were working in the background. You are quite correct that such a thesis is nonsense, which is why bringing to light its place in your argument is so relevant. It simply doesn’t follow that the number of prostitutes would grow at all if prostitution were legalized, let alone enough to have the economic effects you suggest. Thus the argument would only work on the assumption of theses that you either reject or find to be nonsense.

As for empowering women, that argument is between you and @BhacSsylan. I’d like to suggest, however, there might be different understandings of what constitutes empowerment behind your disagreement. You may have a binary notion of empowerment on which a person (you limit yourself to women, but I would again remind you that not only women are prostitutes) either is or is not empowered. I believe that @BhacSsylan, on the other hand, is arguing only that legalizing prostitution empowers those who work as prostitutes insofar as it changes the balance of power in the direction most favorable to the prostitutes. That is, it results in an improvement with regards to power and empowerment, even if it does not lead to an ideal situation.

P.S. Didn’t you say your previous post was going to be your last? I guess we’ll see if you really mean it this time. Regardless, don’t feel like you need to stay away for our sakes. You seem to be the one getting riled up, after all.

@SavoirFaire I actually asked him to return, because I always find a discussion more interesting where there are people with well-spoken opinions on the other side. It’s just a shame he apparently doesn’t feel like explaining those opinions, because as they are formed I can’t say they have very much weight to them. Especially when the “daughters” comment is just silly, and has been rebutted many times in this and other threads. Ah, well.

Also, I see no reason why “most americans want it illegal” is any argument at all. We are not a pure democracy for one very good reason: Mob Rule never works out very well. Homosexuality used to be considered a metal illness, at best, and some gross deformity at worst. Finally, it’s gaining ground, and I think the latest polls show the majority of Americans on the side of gay marriage. Popular opinion never was a good gauge of morality.

@BhacSsylan Thanks for the explanation, and well said.

Sorry. Just didn’t have the desire to get into it. I know that’s a crappy excuse especially since I kind of stirred the pot earlier, but it’ll have to do. Not to keep this darn thing going, but I don’t think my daughters/sons comment was “just silly.” Saying something is just silly isn’t much of an argument either, dudes. Not that it would prove anything but maybe one of you should ask the Fluther community how they feel about it? I’d be interested in reading those responses.

@Link It was silly because it’s been answered many times before, in this thread.

“As for whether or not i would want my relations involved, you should watch this video, it’s an excellent treatment: from raginloli in another thread. Short answer, if it was properly legalized and for the right reasons (she wanted to do it, and wasn’t feeling forced for whatever reason), then no, i would have no issue.”

Not that the question is necessarily silly (though, it is, and I’ve never seen a pro-prostitution person say “oh, true, never mind then”), but it’s been answered and re-answered many times.

@Link For the sake of argument, let’s say I wouldn’t want my daughter or son working as a prostitute. So what? I wouldn’t want any of my children to work at Walmart, either. Moreover, how we feel about these things might not be rational. We don’t criminalize everything that emotionally distresses us, and the law isn’t supposed to make special exceptions for my children.

@SavoirFaire The point of said argument is to attempt and trap you in exposing some area of the job which is distressing to you when it hits close to home, as a basis for categorically opposing it. And/or, if you just say no, then the question is why do you let other people do it? It’s a very old, and very debunked, argument. And the people who would be swayed by it shouldn’t be taking part in the discussion, because they obviously care about legalizing it for either non-rational or selfish reasons.

@BhacSsylan I understand the point of the argument. I just meant to show yet another reason why it is silly. My “so what?” was largely rhetorical.

Fair enough. Think i read it too fast. Sorry!

How we as a society feel about, well, just about anything has a lot to do with the kind of lives we lead, how we raise our children, and the type of laws that get passed. From what I understand the law is definitely supposed to make exception for your children, or, rather, for the kind of world you FEEL (wanted to use italics here, but couldn’t figure out how) your children should live in. If I’m wrong here, or, worse, if I’m ignoring the realities of life in our society, please let me know.

I keep checking Fluther to see if my other post has been answered. It has not >O. So I gotta say I’m just a bit frustrated to see that there are only replies to this post, especially when I check this post and see that someone tried to put someone who has sex for money and someone who tells you that the shampoo is in aisle four on the same playing field.

Um, what other post? Just so we’re clear. Not sure what you mean. In this thread you mentioned inflation, which I think is ridiculous and besides the point, and “would you want your relation to do it”, which I’ve also answered. So, what’s not been answered? Another topic? because then I have no idea why you’re complaining to us. All i see is “anyone else down with wordpress?” so now i’m just really confused

And saying “it’s the law! it must be right!” is naive at best. One word: Prohibition. Utter failure that caused severe damage to society for a while (not the least of which being an explosion in organized crime that we still have major problems with). It is an indication of an amalgam of holdovers from centuries ago and how some old white men (and a handful of women) think that society should be run. In some cases. Other cases, it’s about what gets tacked on to another bill, or what happens to be a good talking point, etc etc etc. Saying that law is the be all and end all of societal feelings is just silly, especially since laws change all the time! As does society. And i think it should be obvious that laws tend to lag significantly behind societal changes, because government takes so damn long to adapt.

And, er, wait. A law is about how we live our lives, but makes exceptions for our children? Do you mean minors, or everyone’s children, so, everyone, or, er, what?

And a last parting shot: Jim Crow laws, anyone?

Also, just missed the edit window. About the walmart comment, I have yet to see a real answer to this: Please tell me exactly why this is so different, and don’t use ‘it’s sex!’, because that’s begging the question. Give me some real, definable reason why sex is so different. And if you want to try “it objectifies women!” you’re gonna have to give me a reason for that, too, because I’ve never seen a decent reason for that, either, besides saying ‘cause it does’. We’re not talking about pimps who throw a whore in a room and say “get to it!” We’re talking about a women with rights who can decide who and what she does.

@Link No, the law does not make exception for my children. It might make certain exceptions for children as a group, but not for mine in particular. Thus it doesn’t make sense to outlaw something I don’t mind other people’s children doing just because I might not want my children doing it—the point being that the question about what I might want for my own children is not dispositive concerning the question about legalizing prostitution.

As for my comparison of a prostitute and a Walmart employee, I agree with @BhacSsylan: so far you have offered nothing but your personal distaste for the one as a reason for distinguishing the two. Yet if you ask me to name a demeaning job with abusive superiors and an institutionalized means of keeping people from leaving, “Walmart employee” is the first thing that comes to my mind.

Many of their employees, after all, make so little that they cannot afford to shop anywhere other than Walmart (reminiscent of the old company store scheme wherein employees were basically forced into handing back their paychecks) and the potential for advancement is vastly limited. Keeping night shift employees locked inside the store seems rather abusive, too, not to mention the fact that Walmart is still facing the largest sex discrimination case in history due to discrepancies between pay and job opportunities for men and women (women are paid less and hold a vastly disproportionate number of management positions relative to the number of women working for the company).

But hey, I guess that’s nothing at all like the relationship between pimps and prostitutes. ~

In my earlier comment I said (paraphrasing here) that most of Americans don’t want our kids living in a world where prostitution is legal. This is the comment we’ve been referencing, correct? I think we all know the gov’t won’t make specific exceptions just for the children in your family. That would be impossible. I’ll let the petty counterargument slide. Although what you want for your specific kids will not necessarily affect legislation, what millions of parents do and don’t want for their kids does. I’ll leave it at that and not pretend like you don’t follow.

Prostitution, like crack and a bunch of other things that have the potential to be harmful to our society, is outlawed in most states. Are you saying that the ban on prostitution is in conflict with how most American feel about prostitution? That the gov’t of each state is simply out of touch with what the people really want? Of course, because look what happened during prohibition. That should tell you everything you need to know, man. The gov’t fucked that one up, which clearly means they’re fucking this one up too. Their decision making is totally wacked, man! Ha-ha.

By the way I never said “it’s the law, it must be right.” Did someone else say that to you?

Walmart is the first thing that comes to mind when you think about abusive superiors? Walmart supervisors handcuff lower-level employees to their posts so that they can’t leave? They can’t quit their jobs!? Oh my gosh call the cops! Hurry, do it now. You gotta tell someone. Oh but wait, there’s also illegal immigrants who work for $5/hr, twelve hour days, seven days a week. Heck their employers can simply not pay them and these poor immigrants couldn’t do a damn thing about it. Those guys have it pretty bad, too. No?

But what’s the difference between Walmart employees and a prostitute? Well, a WM employee never has to worry about getting rammed from behind by a fat dude who keeps calling him/her a “stupid ho.” While you guys seemed to be more versed on the interactions between prostitutes and pimps, it doesn’t seem like you think those two groups of people have a healthy relationship. In fact you’ve hinted that there that physical abuse is characteristic of the relationship. To my knowledge WM employees don’t get punched in the face if they don’t make money for their bosses.

By the way, if there are any Walmart employees reading this, please note that I never suggested that working at Walmart is like working as a prostitute. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with working at Walmart.

Oh and I’m getting frustrated because I’m looking forward to someone answering my other post, which is unrelated to this post (doesn’t have to be, does it?), but no one’s answering said post. Bummer! I get excited when I see that I have a response, but it always ends up being for this post only.

Wow. Your knowledge of this argument is sort of naive at best. Savoir can answer about the laws and children, you have not countered my statement there. But maybe you just think I’d make a horrible parent.

I am not saying that everything the government does is stupid or old or evil or whatever. I’m simply pointing out that the government is entirely and repeatedly capable of getting things horribly wrong. And yes, Prohibition is a perfect example. It was an attempt to rid society of a perceived evil, much like prostitution, and instead lead to a heavy increase in related crime and abuses. And no, i’m not saying it’s my only argument, but it’s a pretty telling one.

And you’re saying “the law is in place because it should be”. I’m saying that’s a faulty assumption, and that we should look at the reasoning for the law. You’re so far only making reference to mob mentality. “People think it should, so it’s right!” That’s god damn bull, and prostitution and jim crow laws and every other ill-conceived law is evidence that they don’t get it right all the time, and the will of the majority of people does not necessarily have anything to do with what is right.

Also, get off your damn high horse. All those abuses your just listed Exist because prostitution is illegal and stigmatized. I’m not saying that it currently isn’t a problem. But legalization and regulations would quell and possibly remove all of that. How that isn’t obvious I have no clue.

@Link I wasn’t referencing any particular comment. I asked what you thought the upshot of me not wanting my children to become prostitutes entailed (assuming, for the sake of argument, that I do not want that). The reason I asked is that I don’t think it has any result that is useful for your argument. That people don’t want something does not mean they are correct to not want it. Majorities can make mistakes, after all, and this is not a conversation about where the political will is located.

As for the government making specific exceptions for children, you are the one who suggested it after I said that such things do not occur. Why you think it is petty of me to correct what is either a lack of clarity or a lack of understanding on your part is beyond me, as is why you act like I’m the one who isn’t following. It was your inability to follow what I said that led to what now seems to be a (that is, your) misunderstanding. So how about being polite about your own mistake?

As for Walmart being the first example of an abusive and demeaning job that comes to my mind: yes, it is. That doesn’t mean it’s the worst example, just the first that comes to my mind. Pointing out that there are other bad jobs proves nothing and is really a non sequitur, so I’ll have to assume you were just adding in empty rhetoric rather than actual argument. Unfortunately, it seems that you want the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.

Lest you change your mind and become interested in honest conversation, however, I’ll reiterate @BhacSsylan‘s point about the abuses involved in the pimp/prostitute relationship: yes, we admit they exist; but that’s the point of legalizing prostitution. Legalizing prostitution helps to eliminate the pimps, ending the relationship between the two. Thus the abuses about which you are so worried come about due to the legal prohibition of prostitution. If you’re really so worried about them, you should switch sides.

P.S. It would be nice if your future posts clarified which comments were aimed at who. You seem to have treated @BhacSsylan and myself almost as if we were one person in your last response, leading to a bit of a mishmash.

P.P.S. You keep complaining about no one responding to your “other post,” yet you won’t respond to inquiries regarding which post that is. Either tell us what you think we aren’t responding to or stop complaining.

@SavoirFaire It’s a totally other question, about word press. Nothing to do with this.

@BhacSsylan Ah, I see. Good thing he’s complaining about it here, then. ~

Of course it should be legalized.

I wouldn’t say I aprove. But so long as the people are of age, it’s not up to me, right?

Why wouldn’t you approve, @AshLeigh?

@Dutchess_III
I just don’t think it’s the best idea to put yourself in danger of getting STDs on a dailey basis, or even mistreating your body in that way.
What if you get pregnant? Daddy’s gonna be unknown. And momma’s job is sex. If she chooses to keep the child, then she probably shouldn’t be out doing that anymore. But then, how will she support herself? How will she support her child?
And how many ex-prostitutes do you know that don’t regret it? That don’t wish there had been another way?
I think it would be slightly less terrible if it wasn’t a bunch of young girls out there. Girls who really aren’t of legal age to be having sex at all.
And I always think of how many prostitutes are murdered by Johns, or their Pimps. It’s sad.
It’s just my honest opinion…
Sincerely,
^_^ Ash-Leigh.

But having it legalized would take care of many of those issues….

No, legalizing it would make it more common.
So all of these problems would only happen more often.

@AshLeigh No, not really. Some of them, perhaps, but not all.

A woman who has a child and has to give up her job to support it is sad. However, that is always a problem with single mothers, and many still make it through the pregnancy and end up as wonderful mothers despite going back to work. If the profession is sex it isn’t any worse then another profession if other problems were not the case. Maybe your child learns about sex earlier then others, but this isn’t necessarily a bad thing at all.

Getting STDs on a regular basis is a problem. However, if the use of condoms could be regulated and ensured, this would be a lot less of an issue. And people in many jobs can get sick, from horrible maladies from blue collar work up to carpal tunnel and tendonitis and various personality disorders from white collar work, and everything in between. So disease, when properly regulated, isn’t really an issue.

And there are many who don’t regret it, I’m sure. I can’t speak from personal experience, as I don’t know any, but there many porn actresses who find the work quite fulfilling. Sasha Grey is my constant example, but there are many more. Not to mention academic studies of brothels in Nevada that show worker happiness as being quite fine and most affected by workplace conditions, much like any other job.

And yes, i will not disagree that underage prostitutes/sex slaves of any age/gender are in a bad situation. But, again, this is a problem with regulation, similar to child labor in third world countries. With regulation comes the minimizing of that sort of problem. When you define what is legal, finding what is not becomes a lot easier.

And again, if it was legal, you wouldn’t even have ‘pimps’. Not in the current sense, where they’re just crooks and bullies, because they can get away with it since the women/men are tied to them through their work being illegal. Give the workers right, and that kind of person can be taken down. Think back to “The Jungle”. When meatpacking and those sorts of industries were unregulated, you had problems with workers losing limbs, fingers, etc, and being told to get back to work, because they had no rights. Same thing here. You hurt or murder a prostitute, few people care because, hey, it’s a prostitute. If you take away that stigma, you can’t do it anymore. Especially with rape and abuse of a prostitute, people get away with it because the prostitute can’t do anything. If they go to the police, oh look, jailed for prostitution and no one takes her/him seriously.

Seriously, most to all of the problems with prostitution come about as a result of illegality and stigma. Remove those, and you can have progress.

@AshLeigh And I missed the edit window, but something to consider: many people went blind from alcohol consumption during prohibition. When it became legal again, alcohol consumption rose, and yet the prevalence of blindness from alcohol essentially disappeared. Why? Because people during prohibition drank large quantities of methanol, which gets you drunk like ethanol but also attacks your optic nerves. Remove the prohibition, and methanol gets tossed.

My point is thus: just because something is a problem does not mean it’s a problem with the illegal thing. Many, many problems are caused by it’s very state as illegal, and simply sweeping them all under the rug as a problem with prostitution is naive.

@BhacSsylan,
You have numerous respectable points. However, I still have the privilege to object. Conceivably it would be beneficial in some ways. But not in every way. Prostitutes who try to get away from their “pimps” if it were to be legalized would still be massacred, and violated.
Isn’t sex supposed to be something exquisite? I don’t know a lot about the subject, because I’m only a teenager, but isn’t it? How can you have a healthy sex life, or a marriage, or any kind of romance if one party is a prostitute? When sex is your job I disbelieve they would yearn to go home and have sex with their spouse.
My conflicting is mostly based on my religious convictions, I assume. That and aimless sex with sporadic foreigners for pocket money just seems brutal…
What’s the mismatch between self mutilation, alcoholism, drugs, and prostitution? It all seems like self mutilation to me…
Anyway, Sorry if it seems like I’m arguing or anything. I’m not. I’m just… I don’t even know. Acknowledging my consideration, I suppose.

@AshLeigh naturally you have the privilege to object. Just as I have the privilege to object to your points. Fluther is about discussion, after all. I also like to debate about this kind of stuff, so sorry if I come on strong.

I still disagree with your assertion about Pimps. Why would this necessarily stay the same? As I said, this is very largely attributable to prostitutes being seen as second class citizens and petty crooks, not human beings. Women/men working in the sex industry are subject of harassment and the authorities deem it acceptable be “they were asking for it”/“they’re criminals’/etc. As long as it’s illegal, those working in it will get bad treatment. You make it legal, it will be easier to find and prosecute those who break the rules, that being the pimps. In nevada you have brothels with madams, who seemed rather well liked, again dependent on workplace conditions more then anything. I’ll dig up that study later if you’re interested.

Secondly, sex is many things to many people. Sex is very enjoyable, yes, and it can be rather groundbreaking when very good and shared with someone special. But there is nothing universal saying that it must be this way, that it has to be this way every single time. That’s like saying that every meal must be a masterpiece or it’s not worth eating, or (a little less essentially) that every TV show much be incredible or it’s worthless.

To the second point, that’s like saying that a restaurant cook would never want to cook at home, or a programmer never wanting to code on their free time. They two places are different, and the sex is, I would assume, quite different as well. To say something that is your job must be unenjoyable outside of the job just isn’t true.

Foreigners? Sorry, that just seemed sorta random. Odd choice aside, why ‘brutal’? What about it is physically violent? Because that’s what that implies and i’m confused. Keep in mind no one is saying that anyone should be made to do it or buy it as a result of it being legal. Quite the opposite. But it should be a legal (and most importantly, protected and regulated) option for those that want it.

By ‘self mutilation’, what do you mean exactly? Wrist cutting? or just tattoos, or something in between, like scarification? And again, why must prostitution be lumped in? Is having sex inherently damaging? Or just sex with people for money? If the ‘johns’ were not allowed to beat up the sex worker as they are now, would it still be mutilation?

And, important to this discussion, people have the right to thier own bodies. You are cetainly free to dislike what they do with it, but you are not allowed to dictate what they can and can’t do. Same as I can’t say “no, you have no right to object”, because you have a right to your mind. By the same right, we have the right to our bodies. Miners and loggers and others have the right to their profession despite the inherent risks to their lives. People have the right to smoke despite the risk of cancer. We all have the right to eat food with preservitives and HFCS despite possible health risks. No one is forcing you to do any of these, and many abstain (like myself), but you shouldn’t be allowed to come in and say “No, you can’t do this because I say so”.

And lastly, to religion. You are absolutely allowed to believe, under the framework of your religion, that prostitution is wrong. However, you do not have the right to dictate public policy based on it. Separation of church and state and all that. And that’s all we’re talking about, public policy. You are forever free to believe it’s bad for you. I’m just arguing that that doesn’t mean it should be illegal (and a little bit that it’s not as bad as you think).

I don’t mean it would stay the same forever. But how is a girl to get away from a man who thinks he owns her? After so long of feeling like she’s his property is she going to feel like she really can get away without him harming her? Maybe he will be prosecuted, but that doesn’t take away what he would do. It could very well be too late.
Ah. Oh well. Opinions.
I guess my choice in words can sometimes be confusing. There are many meaning for most words. I wasn’t using “Foreigners” as in people from other places. I just meant random strangers basically.
Brutal, indeed. It just sounds to me like a lot to put your body through. Legal or not. They could still get hurt, raped, or pregnant.
I’m really not sure what I meant. Self mutilation would be meaning anything harmful that you inflict on yourself. Maybe it is damaging. I don’t know, because I’ve never been a prostitute. But I believe it’s emotionally damaging. All these little girls out there being forced into prostitution. Or maybe not exactly forced. It’s sad.
No one’s trying to dictate. No body said “You can’t do that because I say so.” The question asked an opinion, and I gave mine. That’s all.

@AshLeigh But currently they do own them, essentially. Prostitution is illegal, so those in prostitution are, in many cases, either forced into it, or are stuck in it once you’ve started. If you run away, your pimp just finds you and blackmails you, or uses other methods that, again, become permissible because their job is illegal an stigmatized. When this is removed, you can finally prosecute the pimp, because the prostitutes are no longer criminals, no longer second class citizens with no rights. I’m just not at all following why these things, which happen because prostitution is illegal, would necessarily continue when it is not.

And you know what, a girl can, right now, be beat up and raped and otherwise physically and emotionally abused horribly by a boyfriend or husband. Yet we don’t outlaw consensual relationships, for obvious reasons. Yes, bad things can happen. But bad things can happen in any profession or relationship or, well, anywhere. Why not legalize it so we can go after the horrible people perpetuating these problems, and stop attacking the victims?

Not all sex is violent. Not all sex is “a lot to put your body through”. Again, other professions have lots of associated risks, but we allow people to do them as long as they are free to make the choice and aware of the consequences. Why should this be any different? Again, currently, people are very often not free or fully informed. But legalization would make it so much easier to recognize those in the system by force and take them out. And, if proper regulations were in place, the prostitute would have the power to dictate what they will do with a John. Sure, that may get her less customers, but that’s the nature of any job ever. And some women quite enjoy some things that many would consider quite brutal, so there’s that to. But that’s a whole ‘nother topic. Main point: regulations would allow a women to decide what to do and not do, not the pimp.

See, that’s very tricky. Smoking is self-mutilation then. We know that’s harmful. Tattoos and heck, even piercing and gauging are technically harmful. Overeating is harmful, should shut down ‘all-you-can-eat buffets’? Yes, things have risks, but for many, many things, we allow adults to decide for themselves.

And again, I am not at all in favor of the current system. Sex slavery is slavery, period, and should be dismantled. Girls who got in for some reason and can no longer leave are likewise slaves. But what about the empowered women in porn, like Sasha Grey, and the women in “Abby Winters” or “Girls Out West”, both female-run and consensual porn companies? Are they also forced, despite professing to enjoy it? Because if they can enjoy it, why can’t a prostitute, if she’s fully informed and free and allowed to impose restrictions on the John? Much like restrictions involving, say, what you could tell a bodyguard to do or not do? These are all advantages that would come with proper regulation.

And the question was ‘should porn be legalized’. Your opinion on that, then, is your opinion on how the public policy should be, and thus what other people should do.

Again, this is not a question of what you, personally, would like to do or partake in. It is a question of what free, willing adults should be allowed to partake in.

@AshLeigh Our point is, if it were legalized the entire structure would be different. The people in charge of the “business” would no longer be violent “pimps.” They’d be business owners subject to checks and monitoring by the government. If they were abusive, they’d face the court system. The employees would be registered and monitored. Obviously, the country wouldn’t allow a 14 year old to be a prostitute. There would be medical services available that many don’t have now. Protections in place that they don’t have now. Counseling and other options would be available that many girls aren’t allowed to access would be in place too. It would be a legitimate way to earn some income, if one didn’t mind it.

It would be totally different.

It wouldn’t cure everything though, because there would still be a sick demand for children. That would still be illegal.