Why so much hatred over a man made border?

I have some problems with this too. Borders are arbitrary, artificial, man-made, if ever anything was, yet we obsess over them as though they were natural things, cut deep into the planet itself. You look at the earth from space and there aren’t any borders.

Yes, I know very well my above statement may, in your opinion, be either idealistic or naive or both, so bring it on. You certainly can’t argue that borders aren’t unnatural, arbitrary, man-made things, I don’t think. Can you?

I dunno, why do we get angry when people treat our own things as theirs when we have not invited them to do so? Why do rule-followers get angry when the rule-breakers break rules?
A lot of it probably has to do with the way that the federal government, which is Constitutionally mandated to look after things like the border, isn’t doing anything to stop what is effectively an invasion.
Still, gunning down little girls is a bit much.

@Nullo What exactly is it about a certain parcel of land that make is ours? Did God deed it to us? Did we win it fair and square in a war or a poker game maybe?

@Nullo What are things?!! When you value your life based on things.. you have nothing my friend.. the sad thing is that this country has programmed us to think that we are what we have and we value our life based on stuff. And if we’re going to talk about invasions.. well.. you know we are REALLY GOOD at that too.. hehehe!

@Nullo
Wow…. Did you truly read that article that was linked in the opening post and then place your own posting the way you did?

I think people are just very sensitive to in-group versus out-group behavior. Just like chimpanzees, we are capable of shutting of empathy for out-group people and treat them in the worst possible ways. We still are far off from civilization, I guess.

It all comes down to us not being able to fiscally and commercially handle any more people. By anymore people, I mean more than what is projected. It’s not a racial thing (people that dont understand WILL make it one though), but look at the state our country is in handling just us? What will happen if we added more than 100k people to that census?

Is there even a border that separates us from Canada?...or is just a white pick-it fence?....

Wow! @Nullo my friend, you’re getting pummeled here. I know I was the first to light into you, but if you need me, I’ve got your back. I may disagree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to believe what you believe and express it freely. That being said, I may have your back, but I would still appreciate it if you would respond to my comment.

@kheredia I hope you understand that using one story involving the ilk of Gunny Bush, Albert Gaxiola Shawna Forde and alleged drug dealing isn’t a fair discussion of the illegal immigration situation in America. What happened in this case was deplorable. The US legal system is dealing with the matter. For the majority of people in this country it is a matter of wanting people to do things legally.

Not trying to be a smart alec, but when you said, “I understand that they are indeed breaking the law, but don’t we all at one time or another?” Well, no we don’t. The only time I have broken the law was when I was younger and speeding. I got caught and learned my lesson to be honest.

I have many friends from El Salvador, Guatemala, Russia, Asian countries, Eastern Eurpean countries and other places around the world and their stories would break your heart and make you proud of their struggles in wanting be US citizens. They are becoming and have become US citizens legally. It took time and there were times when they were tempted to go around the system. But they didn’t and aren’t.

@lillycoyote I’ll take a stab at this since I have a dog in this fight.

First, to answer your question, yes borders are won in wars. History taught us that. Doesn’t matter if it was right or wrong it’s still a fact. Some of the land was purchased. Read up on the LA Purchase.

Second, we can’t look at this as a simple border crossing. If you care to look there are hundreds of articles of the crime committed by not only the illegal immigrants themselves but also the brutal treatment of some of the illegals by their escorts. (Called Coyotes….sorry)

Third, cost. We have no idea the actual amount of money spent on education, health care, infrastructure and so on, but the last figure I saw was it was in the billions in California alone.

On a side note, your idea about no borders form space, try crossing into Mexico illegally and living in Cancun. Trust me their immigration laws are much tougher than ours. The idea that the world could simply do away with borders in place for a new world is simply ridiculous. It can’t and won’t happen.

I won’t even go into the terrorist crossing of the Mexican Border as I don’t want to type all day but you can check out a link if you choose. Somehow I don’t think this book was lost or left by a really nice person looking for a landscaping job.

@lillycoyote Rules make things ours and not others’, rules agreed upon by members of society. Not people who barge in with their own rules.
@kheredia Property ensures a certain quality of life. This is not only true of us, but of every other civilization in the history of ever. If we let them, people will walk all over us. Yes, I know that we were good at the invading. But we need to stay on it or else we’ll be reduced to somebody else’s (and I might add, somebody who isn’t going to integrate) peasants.

For the record, I fully intend to maim anybody that I find breaking into my house to take my things. This isn’t that much different.

@whitenoise Yes, I read the article. I was responding to the question proper. I see nothing civilized about giving up all that we have worked for because somebody cries hard enough for it.

There are millions of people in the world which need aid, or could be considered needy enough to be allowed to move to better conditions. The sad thing is, it just isn’t feasible to allow everyone in. There has to be some limits or rules. You can’t just reasonably expect to open the flood gates for everyone – there aren’t enough funds to even solve poverty of our own citizens, much less everyone else’s.

I think the anger toward illegals is displaced fear about the economic situation, the lack of jobs, etc.

@Nullo I don’t mean to intend one shouldn’t guard ones property.The opening question was not about why we are preventing people from stealing our property, nor about whether we should regulate immigration. It was questioning why there seems to be so much hate towards illegal people. I don’t think hatred is very civil.

One can maintain close and strict immigration laws without hatred. One could even empathize with people, and still evict them. At least that is my interpretation.

These are not good people. They apparently invaded the home with the intention of stealing drug money. This seems to have very little, if anything, to do with illegal immigration. There will always be those who try to capitalize on social trends.

I am definitely against illegal immigration, but that doesn’t mean I “hate” anyone, or that I want to kill anyone. I pretty much view the propagandizing of this incident as an attempt to tar all of us who don’t favor illegal immigration with the same brush.

Plus, a lot of the U.S./Mexico actually cuts through sovereign indigenous nations. In many cases, the “illegals” passing through are practically cousins to these people. In a very real sense, the border is keeping people from moving freely in their own land.

Not to put to fine a point on it, @incendiary_dan , but that’s unadulterated BS! The borders of the USA are well-defined, historically established, and comprise a sovereign State.

Read indigenous treaties. You are wrong.

@incendiary_dan

I know of no treaties with indigenous peoples which span the borders of the US. But even if there are, the territorial claims of the US most likely take precedence.

@CaptainHarley Of course they do. The U.S. has bigger guns.

@incendiary_dan what treaties? Are you talking about the issues surrounding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples?

@bkcunningham No, but that is of course related. I’m trying to dig up several stories I read about one of the indigenous groups whose land straddles the border, and who were conflicted over assisting the U.S. border guards. Unfortunately, I’m at work, where plenty of sites are blocked and it’s making it difficult to find resources I’ve used before.

@incendiary_dan I know the EPA has a program with indigenous groups along the US border states and five communities in Mexico. I will add that I found a couple of articles from a group called Root Force, who according to their website: “Root Force is a strategic campaign designed to exploit weak points in the global economy and hasten the system’s collapse.”

They fight with border patrol officers and took over a few offices in Arizona. I don’t think they are fighting to support indigenous groups though.

Sounds like criminals stealing from criminals. I have no idea if anyone is guilty here just taking the article at face value. They broke in because they thought there was drug money and they wanted it.

So how does this then become a nationwide hate campaign? How exactly would ‘Open Borders’ solve this? Sounds to me like yet another attempt to push a political agenda that is not grounded in reality.

Also, there’s been a lot of stories about the border patrol giving weapons to vigilante groups like the one mentioned in that article. One wonders if that’s why the FBI didn’t do anything. The FBI has a long history of consorting with vigilante groups, particularly racist ones.

This is America. We can’t get through a crisis without a scapegoat or two. Blaming immigrants just happens to be de rigueur.

It’s not the border. There are many reasons for this kind of animosity. I agree somewhat with @marinelife and @psychocandy. There are also many people who don’t hate people from ‘over there’. I read an article about Arizona and how about 30% of households there have undocumented people in relationships with and giving birth to U.S. citizens – they’re part of our future and of our present history and plenty of people have no issue falling in love with ‘illegals.’

@whitenoise Frankly, I skimmed the article before determining that it was not honest journalism. Did you feel it groping for your heartstrings? That’s a sure sign of spin.
I answered the question with similar questions in an effort to perhaps help to evoke the mindset that the OP sought to understand. I likened the country to a home.

To be perfectly honest, most people that I’ve talked with about this matter are angry about the “illegal” part of “illegal alien,” and do not harbor ill will towards the actual immigrants.

My mother, who is a naturalized U.S. citizen, attempted to legalize her brother. She submitted the paper work in 1997 and till this day is still waiting for an answer. My uncle will probably die before he can step foot in this country legally. The immigration system is broken which is why many who need help now, decide to cross illegally. Someone who has nothing and who can’t depend on their government to help them get back on their feet, can’t wait around for years until the one country who CAN help decides to give them the okay. What angers me is these unethical people like the minute men who continually terrorize these poor people who are probably already running away from a horrible situation. They go out there and hunt them as if they were animals! These types of groups should not be allowed! People like that are a disgrace to our country. This is the 21 century for heavens sake.. why do they insist on acting like savages?!

@kheredia 14 years for an answer? Something is wrong. I have several friends that have made the move here legally and the longest took about 2 years. It’s not easy and you have to stay after it. Then again, if it were easy everybody would do it. We can’t sustain an open border. Feelings for the people aside.

Secure the border and reform the corrupt Mexican Government. There is plenty of opportunity in Mexico, the Government there just doesn’t seem to care.

@missingbite going the Naturalization route takes at the very least five years. Some of the requirements ar you have to be at least 18, have been a permanent resident for at least 5 years, or a permanent resident at least 3 years to file as a spouse of a US Citizen. There are other paths to naturalization, but those are the basics. After you apply, it takes 10 to 12 months to get processed and adjudicated.

It is a gigantic federal agency and they deal with millions of cases and programs annually.

@bkcunningham You are correct that Naturalization takes a long time. But to come to the USA legally does not take that long. I have no problem with people coming here legally and working toward being a citizen. I’ll ask my buddies how long their process was. I know they stated it was a pain in the butt.

@kheredia The ends do not justify the means. And anyway, people used to rely on their support networks, like family and friends and their church communities, and not the government. Maybe they could try one of those?

The federal government – the entity responsible for looking after the borders – has recently filled up with heart-bleeders, and decided to sit on its hands. I kind of admire the less-than-fully-authorized groups who have decided to pick up the slack.

I recommend spamming the office with applications, telephone calls, or perhaps personal visits..

@missingbite legally. That is the key. You can get paperwork without much difficulty to stay legally – for work, school, military and other reasons – waiting on the Naturalizatoin process.

Because blaming others for your own mistakes is so much easier. Ultra conservatives cannot offer any solutions to the real problems of the 21st century. So because they got so little to offer, offering scapegoats and hatred shows how desperate they are. People should not fall into this trap.

@mattbrowne what mistakes are you referring to?

@bkcunningham – Solidarity with US’s southern neighbors and real financial support. Spain, Portugal and Greece were poor countries not too long ago. Like Mexico. They joined the EU and one of the key goals is eliminating poverty in all countries that belong to the EU. Which means that over many years the very rich countries are willing to share some this wealth and still be rich. And there is a political union which means there are conditions. Having NAFTA is not enough.

Mexicans leave because there are not enough opportunities in Mexico. And many Americans employ them illegally and exploit them instead of paying decent wages. These ultra conservatives are hypocrites. They are selfish. Solidarity is not part of their vocabulary. Poverty in Mexico? So what? None of our business.

@mattbrowne Aren’t Greece and Spain still poor? I remember the EU was reluctant to let Greece in.
I figure that we ought to sort out our internal financial woes before splurging money on Mexico. There is a mindset in the world that the poor ought to be put on the dole – the poor that have this mindset will cling to the rich, and there are so many more of them that even the rich will be bled dry. And then there won’t be anybody with money.

@Nullo – No, they are not on a global scale. Look at this map

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_nominal_per_capita_world_map_IMF_2008.png

and check out the colors for Latin America.

Spain, still poor? Quite the opposite. it’s number 25 and Greece is number 28. Mexico is number 61. Honduras is number 124. Even Belarus is better off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Having rich neighbors is good for everybody.

Greece had to be bailed out by international loans through the IMF and had rioting in the streets this past year. Austerity reforms are still causing strikes, shutdowns and rioting. Greece should be an example to America IMO.

The last I heard, Spain was having the worst economic times in their history. During 2010, Spain had the highest unemployment rate in the European Union. @mattbrowne did all of this somehow get turned around in recent months and I’ve missed the reports?

Don’t confuse a crisis with the overall economic potential. Iceland even had to declare bankruptcy, but this doesn’t mean it turned into a third world country. The same is true for Spain and Greece. They are part of the EU facing a severe crisis. People in Spain and Greece are still better off than people in Mexico or Honduras. That’s what I’m talking about. There is no mass exodus from Spain to France. There is a mass exodus from Africa to Spain and Greece and Italy. This article is about illegal immigration. Mexicans wanting to leave do this for the same reasons as Tunisians buying boats to get to Lampedusa.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12446555

Have you ever been to Greece? And to Egypt? Well, when you do that you will see that Greece is still a quite rich country, despite the current troubles.

I second that, @mattbrowne !

Doesn’t matter how rich or poor you are when you live under a corrupt government. Mexico is poor, and it’s also one of the most corrupt governments in the world. Last I checked the richest person in the world was a Mexican.

If the Mexican government would straighten up, illegal immigration to the US would slow way down.

@missingbite Mexico gets more illegal immigrants than it exports.

@incendiary_dan Is it safe to assume that the majority of those come from countries even more corrupt than Mexico. I know Mexico has it’s fair share of US ex pats but I somehow doubt they equal the number of Mexican’s in America.

@incendiary_dan could it be that many of those illegal immigrants coming into Mexico are on their way to the U.S.? It’s easy to get into Mexico and then from there to cross over into the U.S.?
I don’t know, just asking.

I think the anger about illegals comes from the fact that there are Americans who can’t afford to go to the ER (if they do, they’ll literally lose their homes because they can’t pay their ER bills and don’t have insurance), but there are literally millions of illegals who have privileges of this sort that Americans don’t have.

I think what did it for me was the story that was supposed to be heartwarming about millions spent to save the nonviable fetus of an illegal immigrant who already had something like ten kids she couldn’t support. There are American children who are homeless and hungry—and we’re spending millions on the fetuses of illegal immigrants who have no business pumping out more for American taxpayers to feed in the first place? It’s just disgusting.

Illegals catch a lot of negative energy because many of them are Catholic and refuse to use birth control—so they make a bad overpopulation situation worse, and expect American taxpayers to take up the slack. It’s infuriating and disgusting, frankly. You can’t tell me anything that would make a rational person feel sympathetic for the illegals in the equation I describe above. It’s not like America is swimming in wealth and has no hungry and impoverished citizens—if that were the case, I’d be more tolerant about illegals who are breeding like crazy and don’t bother to do the necessary things to become citizens.

@Electra I totally get what you are saying and I am one of those people who thinks illegal immigrants shouldn’t get certain privileges. But it is unfair for people like the minute men to go out there and treat them like animals. These are people!! And even though there are some ignorant illegal immigrants who live off of the government, there are also many hard working illegals who come to this country to work and pay their taxes. My parents both came into this country illegally many years ago and they never took anything from the government. They had three children and paid for all of our medical expenses out of their on pockets and built everything they have now including their citizenship through their own hard work. And I know that there are lots of people like my parents out there who are just trying to better themselves. This is why it angers me when I hear news about the minute men hurting innocent people like this. There’s simply no excuse for this type of behavior.

You know, there’s a lot of people in power and in the news that belong to a class group that has something to gain from illegal immigrants: there are rich people in California who have whole squads of servants that they only pay with room and board, because these servants are illegal immigrants. I know because I have relatives out there that do this. The news organs are very often inclined to cater to the interests of the powerful classes in this country—hence the “poor victimized illegal immigrants.”

The thing is, the border patrol is overwhelmed by gangs of lawless people who attempt to force their way over the border; they desperately need whatever help they can get to enforce the law. If people are going to act like lawless animals, they should be treated like them.

If people want to come to this country and they mean to work hard and not take from the system, they should do it the right way—immigration papers, etc. How can you show you respect a country and mean to do right by it (work hard, etc) if you won’t go through the necessary steps to become one of its citizens?

@Electra It’s a lot easier said than done. A lot of illegal immigrants come to this country illegally and then start the process to become legal because if they try to do it while they are in their own country (usually a poor country), there’s no way they’ll come up with the money to pay for all the fees and paperwork. It’s unfortunate, but that’s the way it is.

@kheredia: Well, you know, in America every day there are people who cannot afford medical help; they cannot afford to pay their rent and are facing homelessness; they cannot afford to go to college.

The bottom line is—often, people cannot afford to do what they want to do in this world. Why should it be different for Mexicans who can’t afford the paperwork to immigrate? Why should that be an excuse for them to break our laws?

@Electra Some laws are so far away from day to day life and reality that they stand in the way from practical morally just solutions. When in a car, rushing your wounded son to the ER, you might break some (speeding) laws as well.

Putting up the argument of ‘lawlessness’ as an excuse for treating people as animals (your words ^^^) is not convincing, I feel. The way a society treats those without power and even those that do not (want to) participate, is a measurement for its moral development, from my view.

For example: one should treat prisoners in a respectful way. Not doing so is not only harming the prisoner, but also the moral justification of our society overall.

@whitenoise If you are speeding taking your son the the ER and you kill someone in an accident, you face manslaughter charges. Just because you think you have a good reason to break the law, doesn’t mean you do. not you personally but people in general

Immigration is a world wide problem. Unrestrained immigration creates a strain on the resources of every country and if not controlled will bring it down. China is worried that N.Korea will create a mass exodus of refugees, so they subsidize Jong Il. We all decry the treatment of Indians during the 1800s but that was an immigration problem. Europeans flooded the country will poor indigent people creating a strain on the resources for land and food. The push of immigration forced the Indians out. Not just here in the US but throughout the Americas. The flood of immigrants and the clash of cultures culminated in the Indian wars. The truth is in a defined area, you can only provide for a limited influx of people without a major clash for resources.

Just because someone wants to immigrate, doesn’t mean that you can open the flood gate. It still requires some control to insure the lives of everyone will not deteriorate.

@whitenoise: Pretending that my use of “lawlessness” in the context in which I applied it was somehow relevant to every situation where the law would have been broken is a strawman on your part. By lawlessness, in the context in which I used it, I meant mobs of people threatening the civil authority of our government by crossing a boarder—this is mob violence, in effect, whether these people are armed or not—they are using their numbers to push their will on the American authorities. Running a traffic light would hardly compare to this situation and my use of the term lawlessness.

To the same point, I agree prisoners should be treated respectfully; but when there’s a prison riot and the guards and society are in danger, the prison guards have to be restrained with force, and if killing some of them is necessary, well, then, it’s necessary. I’d rather know some prisoners were killed by the correct officials keeping the peace and stopping convicted murderers from escaping into the larger society than think that, because the prison guards didn’t want to hurt anyone, there’s murderers on the loose. It’s the same thing with illegal immigration—I’d rather think that some members of the groups of people physically pushing their way over the boarder were hurt than think that they got through, using the means that they used.

@Electra I guess I just don’t agree with your view that such boarder crossing activities are in the same scale as murdering people. Besides… even that should not be an excuse to treat people as lawless animals, or to hate them.

Although, maybe you are right, since I don’t even see a reason to mistreat lawless animals, nor to hate them, as seems to be the case with big parts of the populous towards illegal aliens.

The main ideas here are national sovereignty, legal system, and property rights. If your argument is that we should have none of these things, then tell us what do you think would be the result. I have a question to answer your question. Would it be alright with you if tomorrow I come to your house and take all your possessions? Is that how a “society” should function? Everything is collectively owned and there are no well defined property rights or legal system? You wouldn’t have a problem with that because, after all, these lines and laws are just imaginary, man-made, intangible things. Living in a place of anarchy and chaos sounds great to me as well (joke).

@admackbar Nobody is taking your property or your possessions. That is quite an exaggeration. This hate group went into a home and murdered a child and her father because of the same mentality that you have. When you value things more than life, there is something very wrong. There is no excuse for violence of this sort. It’s hate, not patriotism, not protection, just hate.

@kheredia I dunno, I just shoot anyone who walks into my yard because I value my sovereignty and possessions over rights to living. ~