If the mega money donations help education will we have to admit more tax money needs to go to public schools?

We’d need but to admit that there is a correlation.
It is my contention that schools in rich areas tend to be safer and better because the cost of living is so very much higher (effectively barring access to the poorer, typically more violent elements), and those local governments actually take steps to keep poorer, more violence-prone elements out.

Consider: My high school is situated in an upper-middle-class neighborhood – Time Magazine went so far as to liken it to Mayberry. They bus kids in from the city to be nice, but those kids tend to do poorly.

Have you ever heard of the Kansas City Desegregation Project?

@bkcunningham No. What are the basics? What makes it relavent to the question?

Here’s a summary. It is very interesting, to me at least: For decades critics of the public schools have been saying, “You can’t solve educational problems by throwing money at them.” The education establishment and its supporters have replied, “No one’s ever tried.” In Kansas City they did try. To improve the education of black students and encourage desegregation, a federal judge invited the Kansas City, Missouri, School District to come up with a cost-is-no-object educational plan and ordered local and state taxpayers to find the money to pay for it.

Kansas City spent as much as $11,700 per pupil—more money per pupil, on a cost of living adjusted basis, than any other of the 280 largest districts in the country. The money bought higher teachers’ salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal. The student-teacher ratio was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country.

The results were dismal. Test scores did not rise; the black-white gap did not diminish; and there was less, not greater, integration.

The Kansas City experiment suggests that, indeed, educational problems can’t be solved by throwing money at them, that the structural problems of our current educational system are far more important than a lack of material resources, and that the focus on desegregation diverted attention from the real problem, low achievement.

Here’s a link, but you can actually look at archived stories in local newspapers in Kansas City. It doesn’t work. Sad but true.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html

Here’s a recent story:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704349304575116102677062556.html

@bkcunningham It would be interesting to know if more money given to safe middle class neighborhoods that already do reasonably well resulted in big increases in aptitude.

I’m not sure the linkage you want is really there. Here’s A study showing expenditures on education by country. We tend to spend more on primary and secondary education and fair quite well even in the higher education category. The spending is higher per student whether you measure it a actual dollars or as a percent of GDP. What is striking and should spur some research, is why Japan spends so little and accomplishes so much.

@JLeslie I’m afraid that is the lesson. Money doesn’t produce a better education. It is the structural problems of our current educational system that are lacking and need attention and are far more important than a lack of material resources.

@Jaxk I always wonder if when per student expenditures is quoted if it includes meals and transportation? Do you know if it does?

@bkcunningham I don’t have a problem accepting money will not help if that is the case. But, I would want to figure out some way to help the negative situation in some neighorhoods, but that is a different topic.

@bkcunningham Also, I think the part that might really bother people is, even if we accept as a whole the money in Kansas City did not help, there are still some students who would do better in a different environment if they had the opportunity to parttake in one. We see that in the SEED programs and others.

@JLeslie

They are expenditures on education. If meals are included in the expenditures they would be counted. I don’t know how many or if any other countries provide meals in the education budget. We didn’t use to. Hell when I went to school we didn’t even have a cafeteria. We had a very creative alternative called benches, where you ate the sandwiches you brought from home. Alas, it was a different world.

@Jaxk Meals must count for a percentage, and the US has an incredible amount of spread out suburbs, so transportation compared to other countries must be higher in America. Still, the research is interesting. Thanks.

@JLeslie per student expenditure is the funding given to the school for operational purposes based on the student population. The operating budget includes personnel, including contracted teachers, cafeteria workers, sometimes bus drivers, librarians, central office personnel etc. Students lunches are not counted in the operating side of the budget because of subsidies for low income lunches. The cafeteria supervisor is given a budget and works within that budget. The food is USDA government food.

Public schools receive money from the state and the federal government. Since 1965, the federal government has provided funding for K-12 public schools through the Elementary and Secondary Education Act. The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 sort of replaced ESEA. The federal government spends over $600 billion a year for local public schools. That doesn’t include the state and local monies they receive.

@bkcunningham I recently saw a stat that in America 9% of school funding comes from the federal government, whereas in most devloped nations it is much much higher, and the central government in those countries has more influence over education as well.

@bkcunningham

I’m interested in that $600 billion number. Are you sure you didn’t add a ‘0’ by mistake. It’s much bigger than any I’ve seen. Hell that bigger than the Social Security or Defense budgets.

@Jaxk item 2. The data is from 2004–2005.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/index.html

@Jaxk that is TOTAL taxpayer money. Not just federal money. My mistake. Sorry about that.

@bkcunningham Good link. It seems that it is just under 9% in federal funds.

@JLeslie do you want the government, who can’t operate Amtrak or the Post Office, to have more control over educating our children. Heaven help us.

Yes.

@JLeslie why? Look at this one from the same source.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/edlite-chart.html#1

@bkcunningham

That’s all spending, including state and local. Not federal. From your same report “The president’s FY 2006 budget would provide $37.6 billion for K-12 education.” The federal spending is about 8.9% of the total spending on education.

The Six Lesson School Teacher

(Woo! Second time I got to link to that today!)

@bkcunningham Because I think if my dad and his friends had grown up in MS or LA instead of NYC they might have wound up not finishing high school and God knows what. Instead they all have college degrees, my dad a PhD, one of his closest friends an MD. Luck of which state you are born in determining the importance of education and programs available kind of sucks. However, it is not like I think the fed would do it perfecly, but we have proven many many local muni’s aren’t doing it well. Federal minimums on what should be taught sounds good to me, and minimums for teacher ability sounds good too. I like the idea that local municipalities have some flexibility, so they can try things out and we see how it works, but when something is effective let’s spread it across the country. Local schools here in the inner city have people who know little about education running the schools in my opinion. They are voted in by an uneducated population.

@incendiary_dan everytime I read anything by John Taylor Gatto I think about Obama’s goals with American education: “We will recruit an army of new teachers…After graduating high school, all Americans should be prepared to attend at least one year of job training or higher education to better equip our workforce for the 21st century economy…One of the most critical times to influence learning in a child’s life is the period before he or she reaches kindergarten. We will invest in early childhood education, by dramatically expanding Head Start and other programs to ensure that all of our young children are ready to enter kindergarten.”

Get them while they’re young.

@bkcunningham I am not keen on Head Start by the way. Not related to education.

@JLeslie so you think everybody in New York City has a college degree? And nobody in Mississippi or Louisiana has a PhD? I’m from the south and have a college degree. My father is from the south and has a college degree. My Mom was from the south and had a third grade education. But you know what? I’d would have matched her wits against most people I know with flipping college degrees. I don’t think it is on purpose, but you are certainly impudent.

@bkcunningham I am not saying that. My dad was a child of immigrants and all of his friends. They all went to college for free, because city college back then, Hunter college was free tuition and considered a very very good school. The Harvard for the poor. Back then, my dad is in his late 60’s, there were magnet schools in NYC and fast track programs. I know the NYC school system has some problems now, not sure how it is. And, I am not sure about schools in MS overall, but I know my girlfriend who grew up in MS outside of Memphis and taught high school there; when she moved to St. Louis she could not believe the difference in the schools. Much better in the midwest. She had no idea until she actually experienced it. I live in the midsouth, most of my peers here grew up here and have college degrees. I do wonder how many southerners compared to northerners and west coast go to Ivy League or top public universities? I have no idea honestly, it might be evenly disbursed around the country.

There are always some communities in a state that are better than others regarding education, it varies a lot of course.

@bkcunningham And, my husband’s parents have 5h and 8th grade educations and I don’t think any less of them or think they are stupid. My maternal grandparents were immigrants with barely an education. I was not criticising a person for their education level, I was commenting on the system.

I think that we might need to at some point address the issue of degree inflation.

@JLeslie there might be many factors that keep Southerners out of Ivy League schools. I don’t think academics is one of them though. I would think it has more to do with the liberal attitudes at the schools, the lifestyles, the winter weather, family values and perhaps the cultural bias. I read an article once that said South Carolina Governor David Beasley, a graduate of Harvard, compared Harvard to Harley-Davidson. There are many people who say other brands are cheaper and actually perform better, but they not a Harley.

That’s just my opinion and I might be wrong.

@JLeslie,

There is another point here that needs to be addressed. Why should American citizens be forced to pay for services that they don’t intend/have no reason to use? If someone doesn’t have kids, or prefers a private education, why is that person still obligated to support the public education system? Don’t you think that is violating the individuals freedom of choice?

@bkcunningham I think there is a large percentage of students who go to college relatively close to home, so northeastern students are probably more likely to consider schools like Harvard in the first place, so I am sure there are many factors.

A guy I worked with grew up in LA and he said when he was a boy high school went through grade 10? Which would be around the time my dad was in school. I found this about LA schools which kind of fits my stereotype of public education being rather ignored, because people with any money send their children to private school. I have a close friend who moved to Alabama when we were in 11th grade, and that is how it was where she lived, she had to go to the private school.

I’m sure this is changing, and again some commuities are better than others, and certainly there are examples of bad school districts up north, but school atitudes are a little different in parts of the south from what I can tell. If I had kids I think I would want to move by the time they were in the third grade.

@xseeken Because it is better for society overall. I always answer this type of question with name an industrialized prosperous nation that does not have decent public schools? I have never had an answer to that. Countries that primarily only have private schools, or schools only for children in families who can afford to pay for school are called third world countries. I think one of the reasons we became a great power was public education among other things of course.

@bkcunningham Also, you seemed to have slipped again. When I asked you where you are from the first time a while back, you said the northeast. When I asked you a second time you didn’t answer. Why were you reluctant to say you are a southerner previously? You don’t want me to generalize or stereotype you? I wouldn’t do that. I can’t help it if you sound like a southerner quite often. So what?

@JLeslie I slipped. What does that mean?

@JLeslie,

Before I continue to respond, you feel that taking an individuals freedom of choice away is better for the country overall?

@bkcunningham You told me you were from the northeast when I once asked you directly. Now, this is the second time you say you are southern.

@xseeken Not at all. I think ridding the country of public schools is a bad idea.

@JLeslie There is a tremendous difference in the tones of Northern and Southern culture. From where I sit (in the real world, not necessarily here), I see condescension from the North re: the South, and resentment from the South of the North’s condescension. It is most irritating, and I suspect that this is why @bkcunningham was so guarded.

Personally, I think that we might be best off scrapping the present public school system and drawing up a new one from scratch.

@Nullo I agree there is some condescension. but, it is not directed at a specific person. But, I do understand why it comes across offensive, even when it is not intended that way.

Start from scratch. How does the new school system look?

@JLeslie,

You think ridding the country of public schools is a bad idea, but your solution(and even prior to your solution, with the current taxes we have) is to infringe upon American citizens constitutional rights of freedom of choice? According to this, it’s alright to violate our constitutional rights to support public schools. Is this correct?

@xseeken You will never convince me it is ok to let poor people have no education because they cannot afford it. Again, my dad grew up extremely poor, and if not for the public schools system I cannot imagine where he would be. And, for the middle class paying taxes in a good school district is way cheaper than paying for private school for two or more kids. I am fine with capping property taxes on the elderly, so they don’t get hit hard as property values increase over time.

@JLeslie,

Why do you keep avoiding my questions…. Just answer it…

@xseeken How does it infringe on freedom of choice? People can choose to go to private school. They don’t get to choose whether they fund public schools, but they don’t have to attend public schools.

@JLeslie I dunno, my solution comes from my status as the family IT guy. I see a messy bundle of wires, and a system that isn’t performing as it should. It might not be entirely appropriate to the situation, but when my computer acts up, I usually end up rebooting it at some point to see if the anomalous behavior goes away.

@JLeslie wrote, They don’t get to choose whether they fund public schools,

Why don’t they get to choose? Is that not part of freedom of choice? Why do you have to get the government to force me to give up my money? I don’t get to decide what to do with my money? The government knows best what to do with my money? I’m just a dumb consumer?

Maybe you want to set some even better choices. Maybe I should have to pay for everything else without a choice, but I get to choose whether I’ll be eating shit or drinking piss for the day. I still get to choose right?..... Now apply that to what you wrote now.

@JLeslie you seem to be trying to make me out to be telling untruths. First of all, it really isn’t any of your business where I am from and I don’t know why you seem so concerned about my birthplace. I have no reason to be ashamed of being from the South. As a matter of fact, I’m damn proud of where I’m from. But to set the record straight with you for the fourth time. I currently reside in the Northeastern US. I was born in the South. I don’t know if ya’ll are aware of it or not; but people from the South are allowed to move around now don’t you know. We’re allowed off the farm.

@bkcunningham I have no problem if someone does not want to reveal where they live online. It just seemed you had told something deceptive to try and throw me at one time, and then you had never replied when I was confused. Now you have straightened it out. Thank you. Please refrain from treating me like I am an idiot, or that I am trying to group everyone together in one box from a particular part of the country. I am NOT trying to do that or assuming that. Generalizations and statistics are just that. It does not mean everyone is the same, no stat says 100% when discussing these things. Just like your example of Kansas City schools. There probably were a few students who benefitted, just not enough to warrant the money spent from an objective analysis. I guess I am coming across offensive to you, but that is not my intent.

@xseeken I told you. Because it seems consistently around the world successful societies have decent public schools.

@JLeslie,

So an American Citizen has to lose his/her constitutional rights of freedom of choice because there are decent public schools around the world?

@xseeken If that American cares about America continuing to be a world power and a democracy, yes I would argue yes. Meanwhile, my original question was if money proves to be effective, will we have to accept it. Many people on this thread have provided information where it has not been effective at improving schools. Your question to me basically implies you don’t want to pay for anyone elses education except your own families, which I was not really interested in tackling on this thread.

@JLeslie wrote “If that American cares about America continuing to be a world power and a democracy, yes I would argue yes.”

Before I reply further, if the American citizen cared about America continuing to be a world power and a democracy, why would he/she allow the government to violate the constitution? Would that not destroy America’s fundamentals? If the American citizens would allow this, wouldn’t we have a much bigger issue to deal with, rather then “poor public schools”?

@Nullo What is degree inflation?

@JLeslie,

Degree Inflation

Are you avoiding my question? Or do you still plan on answering it?

“lalalalalalalalalalal, I can’t hear you” is not a very thought out argument. It’s usually healthier to admit to oneself that his/her assertions are/were wrong.

@xseeken and @JLeslie

How about ‘Vouchers’? Wouldn’t that address both your concerns. It certainly would address mine.

@Jaxk,

There was one argument I had against it but I change my mind. :)

@xseeken what is your objection to vouchers as the lesser of two evils?

I don’t know how the voucher would pan out, that’s the only issue.

@xseeken I answered you. I am not concerned with that topic for this question, it is my question. You have my opinion. I want to support public education for all. I am concerned with spending the money relatively wisely if possible, which is why I am interested in how more money affects the levels of education and how different education systems work around the country and world.

@Jaxk Not really. Generally I am against vouchers. Vouchers take money out of the public school system. It also would not help @xseeken concern about people without children. They would still be paying for other people’s children, unless they were exempt from paying taxes for schools altogether.

@Nullo @xseeken I support the idea that not everybody is cut out for college, and college in some ways is getting watered down. I am very in favor of a focus on vocational education. My focus would be that young adults have a skill they can use to get a job and make a career or go onto to college. My dad received a free college education, but you had to be in the top 8% to get it. I am in favor of public money going towards higher education, but we probably would need to discriminate on who should receive it. I can’t see the US ever having free university level education for all. I said above I am not fond of head start education. I think we should take money from that program and put it into high school or higher.

@JLeslie, “I am concerned with spending the money relatively wisely if possible.”

I was trying to hint to you that the best way to spend money wisely is to allow people to decide for themselves, rather then the government. A free market would provide a much more efficient education system then any government could. Governments are much more careless when it comes to spending money, hence our current economic condition. Furthermore, as the others pointed out, more money does not play a role in the creation of a good educational system. In a free market, the billions of dollars spent on welfare and health-care would be in the lower millions, if not hundreds of thousands while providing more efficient results.

@xseeken I don’t have full confidence uneducated people are best at knowing what is best regarding education. I know plenty of people with little education who fully support and want their children to have good educations, but they don’t have the experience necessarily to know what a strong education involves many times. If you leave it to private citizens then you have to hope private citizens give a shit about the poor. If people keep saying to me, “why can’t I use my tax dollars for private school for my kid?” I don’t have a lot of confidence they want to spend any money on helping the poor kid.

I have a feeling there might be examples of money helping school districts, since Bill Gates is giving his money away towards education. He seems to research before he makes charitable donations. Maybe some people will have examples of such a thing? But, like I said above, if money does not help I am perfectly willing to accept that.

@JLeslie, “If you leave it to private citizens then you have to hope private citizens give a shit about the poor.”

To answer your concern here, this is where history and economics comes in. Fundamentals of capitalism…

@JLeslie “The federal government plays a critical role in providing financial support for higher education. In fiscal year 1996 approximately $40 billion, or one-fifth of the total revenue received by degree-granting institutions of higher education, originated from the federal government (National Center for Education Statistics). These funds generally are provided in two forms: through direct support to colleges and universities, generally for research or facilities; and through grants and loans made to students enrolled in postsecondary institutions.” Stateuniversity.com

People can just keep ignoring ideas that might work. We might try firing poor teachers and rewarding good ones with merit pay, give parents vouchers so they could send their children to private schools or stop trying to solve the problem of dysfunctional families after the fact and look upstream for a solution—the elimination of welfare to end the resulting social chaos.

People don’t know how to use other people’s money very wisely. You might think you know what is the best use for other people’s money, trust me, you don’t.

@JLeslie,

Don’t you understand that the only reason private schools are so expensive is because the government sticks its nose in everything… As goes for healthcare and the likes. Everything would be a lot cheaper if the government stayed out.

The Italians have an interesting system: it effectively treats secondary education like we do college. High school is five years long, and you pick one based on what you want to do; there is literally a school for every professional ambition. As best I can figure, higher education is primarily aimed at study-intensive fields like medicine, law, the sciences, and all of those Ph.Ds.
Of my first high school class, I am very probably one of only a handful to attend college.

Since we’re on the subject of money, the k-13 schools are (to the best of my knowledge) funded directly by the government, though they do take cost-saving measures; using old buildings appears to be popular (my high school was situated in the century-old former offices of the Bertolli olive oil company, my middle school in a 500-year-old monastery, both showing signs of much wear), students buy their own books, pay for their own field trips (do we do that here? I forget), eat lunch at home (school runs 5 hours per day, six days a week), and arrange for their own transportation. Staff is minimal, often having one teacher cover multiple, related subjects (math and science once, Italian, Lit, History, and Geography three times). There are no clubs or regular after-school activities. No lockers.

@bkcunningham I am all for dumping tenure, getting rid of poor teachers, and rewarding good ones. But, I am not with you on vouchers.

I do have a concern that federal money raises tuition unnecessarily at universties. I need to look into it more.

@JLeslie,

Watch this Free to Choose

Then check this out Ludwig Von Mises Austrian School

@Nullo My concern with that type of education, although I do not reject the idea out of hand, is young people sometimes find their way during their college years. That it can be difficult to figure a career path at such a young age. I also like having opportunity to explore various subjects. For instance I did not even know there was a major called Packaging Engineering until I got to my university (I wish I had majored in it). My husband had no idea about what he wound up majoring in until he took a class in it at his university, and it has turned out to be a great career.

But, the idea you put forward, or some hybrid of it, would fit in with my desire for students to graduate with a specific skill set.

@Nullo I like that concept. Like the American version of vocational school.

@JLeslie

I’m a little miffed at being summarily dismissed on the vouchers:) Actually, they save the country money or provide more money for public education. We spend $7,000 per student on public education. A voucher typically will provide $4,000 for that same education. So for every voucher that is issued the country puts $3,000 more into public schools. How could that be bad?

If everybody took the vouchers, our $700 billion education system would have $300 billion to run a system with no schools. Basically for every voucher issued, it provides more money for the rest of the kids in public schools. I think it needs more thought.

@Jaxk I was not trying to be dismissive regarding vouchers, just saying I am not in favor of them, and it seemed from what @xseeken said the voucher does not take care of us childless people since he seemed concerned about us. Vouchers indeed might cover some concerns presented though. But, now to your examples of how the money works. I don’t follow it at all. What do you mean a voucher will provide the same education for $4k? Expand on your answer please.

@JLeslie,

If it comes down to the lesser of two evils, then vouchers seem like the better choice. Granted, I still don’t know how vouchers would pan out.

The trouble with federal funding is that it lends itself well to extortion’s nicer cousin. “Hey, school,” * tugs funding chain * “work this into your curriculum, willya?”

The present funding structure reflects a more generally autonomous sort of state, one that was more than merely an administrative subdivision, though perhaps less than a fully-fledged country. Different states would, presumably, have different ways of doing things, academically, and so out of respect for one another, might be left to make their own decisions and fund them themselves.

Where’s @ETPro? He loves this sort of thing, even if he is a little heavy on the conspiracy-theory angle.

@Nullo @ETPro is busy in another discussion purging the world of corporate greed and capitalism.

@Nullo I just tend to trust the fed more than the state when it comes to curriculum. But, I don’t want to stifle states that have innovative ideas in education. It’s a balance in my mind.

@JLeslie your comment just made me think about our earlier discussion on Ivy League Schools and how Southerns tend not to go North to college…well, I’m not sure legislators in DC would have a better idea of the educational needs of someone say in California than, uh, say someone in California. Or someone in DC would have a better idea of the educational needs and interests of someone in say, Idaho or Nebraska or Mississippi or Maine. Doesn’t make any sense to me at all.

@JLeslie Why do you trust the federal government more?

Throwing money at a schools alone isn’t going to change anything for the students that don’t care (for whatever reason), don’t have involved parents (for whatever reason), and who aren’t adequately prepared for school.

I do think money can help in some situations, but then the money needs to be used wisely. In the Kansas City School example above, did the school really need an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal?? I mean, that to me sounds a bit like they could have used that money for other things. It’s great that they got more teachers and built new schools, but what good is a pool with viewing room really going to do when it comes to basic education??

I think we have to really focus on the fact that the children are not equal in terms of their learning abilities, their desires, and everything else instead of trying to make it a cookie cutter school system. It would be great if we could really cater to children’s learning styles early on and have a system that did that throughout their basic education. In addition to catering to their learning style, they could focus on teaching each of those children how to adapt and still learn when they are faced with teachers that teach with a different method, instead of children struggling to figure it out on their own and teachers/parents not picking up on it until it’s too late.

@bkcunningham The legislature is from all the corners of the US. And, I would still want the program to have flexibility, but core requirements, all children in the US get, so they all have a shot to do whatever they want. I guess pretty much, present day, it is like that around the US anyway.

@Nullo I guess I just don’t like that the bible belt still has corporal punishment (most of the bible states do, not all and, there are some outside of the bible belt that it is legal) and the willingness to not care about science (I don’t think that for the most part would be the case at the state level, but in some local communities I think that is true, and I am not just talking about evolution). Anyway, some school systems are doing well, and I have to wonder if there was a more national system if there would be more effort to take what has been very successful around the country, and do those things in all states.

Ironically, and here is where I might sound like I am contradicting myself, Memphis is currently voting to surrender their school charter and give it to the county. The county is very against it. My first reaction, because I know little about the whole thing, was to ask, “why would Memphis feel the county would care more about the Memphis schools than Memphis?” In the end, even the Memphians I know said Memphis elects people who don’t care and don’t know. Memphis is calling racism, that there is a huge pushback from the county to accept Memphis schools as part of their responsibility. I think the fed would be less likely to pay attention to race and local problems like this.

@Seaofclouds Yeah, spending the money wisely. That is why I am curious if there are examples around the country of money helping. But, I would assume school success has less to do with money, once minimum standards are met in terms of the school building, text books, other supplies, etc. There are some complaints around the country that some schools don’t have adequate text books, and schools are falling apart. It seems to me we have to raise the standards required to be a teacher, look at curriculums that have been very successful, and reallu focus on substance, where Kansas City seemed to focus on show. Although, I do think having a pleasant school environment with windows, enough space, and freshly painted walls helps the mood of students.

Edit: Kansas City might have been an example of the blind leading the blind, which is what I would criticize Memphis for if something similar happened here. But, I really know very little about Kansas City, so I don’t really know.

@JLeslie,

If you wish to help, then why can’t you just go donate your own personal time and money? Why do you need to come up with plans like raising taxes in order to help? Those wealthy individuals didn’t come up with plans before they donated the money. They simply gave it away. Why can’t everyone who wishes to help, follow the same line of thinking as the wealthy? No need for plans, no need for government involvement, just simply go and donate/volunteer.

Basically, the same majority of people who voted for government funding for public school through taxes, could of easily went and gave donations/volunteer on their own accord. What’s the difference if you personally give a donation/volunteer, or if the government takes a piece of your money and donates it for you? Why do you need the government to be the middle man?

@xseeken Are you being sarcastic?

Not at all…serious question.

@xseeken I’m not tooting my own horn, but I’ll tell you what. In the small southern town in Virginia where my “children” went to school, I was a volunteer reader, bus monitor, you name it, I helped. I worked fulltime outside the home too. I was blessed that my job offered me the opportunity to spend as much time as I did, along with other parents helping with fundraising and just helping.

All, and I mean all of the schools in the county of some 40,000 residents met the federal standards and some even exceeded them. When one high school didn’t have the funds for a new field house for football, we raised the money. When the kids went on field trips, parents saw to it that every kid went with lunch, snacks and drinks. That’s community. Why would you want to leave? I am very proud of that.

@xseeken I just wasn’t sure because to suggest the Gates have not done research and just give their money away made no sense to me. I was just looking on their website. They seem to put a lot of weight on the quality of the teachers.

I guess it would make sense to donate to specific projects, but the money I have could not support a whole program on its own. Also, remember I still lean towards the country supporting education, rather than relying solely on the private sector. But, I am always willing to listen to a combination effort. I don’t feel like it has to be 100% one or the other. Generally America is a hybrid of private and government for many many things.

@bkcunningham,

That’s great, that’s exactly what I’m talking about. You’re a prime example of what I just said.

@JLeslie,

What I said, is what @bkcunningham, put into practice.

@xseeken Part of the problem is for instance where I live many of the people feel like the kids in the inner city are a waste and beyond help. They are not going to volunteer time there. And the single moms in the inner city don’t have the time, and in Memphis for instance the iliteracy rate is 25% if I remember correctly, so many of the parents can’t read to the kids. And, in areas that have new immigrants they cannot read in English. And that is another disadvantage children of immigrant parents have, their family is less able to help them with homework due to language barriers. People tend to help their own more often than not, so the people least able to help themselves get the least amount of help sometmes.

@xseeken look at this when you have a second. This is the real world to me. Over $15 million dollars raised in private donations with one event. Now remember this is an impoverished area in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains. The McGlothlins are my personal friends and friends of the community.

http://www2.tricities.com/news/2010/jun/09/mountain_mission_school_golf_benefit_nets_record-b-ar-233713/

@JLeslie my dad was born in 1919. He grew up in the coalfields where immigrants from every country imaginable came to work. (Not just in the mines either. There was ever trade imaginable.) The kids went to school in one roomed school houses. They didn’t speak English but they learned. My grandfather ran a grocery store in a coal camp. My dad and grandfather both would tell you about the parents of these little children. How proud they were that their children were learning English. Becoming Americans. They weren’t coddled and pampered. They were taught. The parents would learn English from their children or from volunteers in the churches and other community places.

@bkcunningham,

Checked it out, it’s amazing. That’s quite a sum, and also a smart way to raise money.

@xseeken for a private school for disadvantaged children. They do not and will not accept any form of “government” assistance because of the strings attached. The school was founded as an orphanage. Good people. The choir from the school has entertained POTUS and many other dignataries around the world. They have a top-notched educational system.

The most important part is that the money won’t be carelessly spent, unlike the government funded ones.

@bkcunningham So? What does that have to do with what I said? I never said the children don’t speak English, or that the parents are not proud and don’t encourage their children. The fact still remains many times the parents are not fully biligingual. Makes it hard for them to look over an English paper, read a book written in English with their kids, or help understand a word problem in math. I used to help my niece with her readng homework when she was very little, because her grandmother, who cared for her much of time, did not speak English.

@xseeken well, yes. If the donations are carelessly spent, they are given freely and voluntarily. People in the community will know about it when word gets out and they will stop, voluntarily, giving their own money voluntarily to fund the school. It’s been in existance for 89 years and so far, that system has worked.

@JLeslie my response was to this you said previously, ”...And, in areas that have new immigrants they cannot read in English. And that is another disadvantage children of immigrant parents have, their family is less able to help them with homework due to language barriers…”

How is language a barrier? Children don’t know how to read to start with. They are taught. That is one of the fun and exciting things to me is seeing that spark when someone, young or old, learns to read and learns something new. I don’t see it as a barrier unless someone makes it one. That’s just me.

@bkcunningham The parents and families don’t read English well, I did not mean the children. I was not clear in my explanation. My nieces school required the children read aloud once a week for homework, and her grandma would have no idea if her granddaughter was reading well, and could not help if she had trouble with a new word. The books chosen were purposely above grade level, so she was likely to hit words she was unfamiliar with. But, even on grade level, children sometimes need help with their studies and when their family does not have a strong command of the language it can put them at a disadvantage relative to other sudents. There are plenty of studies that show homework in the very early years means nothing for the abilities of the child in later years in terms of academics, but it can affect their self esteem I think if they are unable to get the work done. Homework in kinder and 1st grade basically requires a parents help, the kids can barely read on their own. In later grades they can at least do most of their homework. Back in the day there was much less homework, especially in the early years. Now there is an emphasis on homework every day from day one of school, which I disagree with, but that is another topic.

@JLeslie to me, the excess homework really may be part of the original topic to begin with.

@bkcunningham What do you mean?

@JLeslie I mean, Standards of Learning and other beauracratic nonsense have turned teaching, real teaching, into a nightmare of futility in many cases. Why aren’t the children taught in the classroom? Why is there so much “homework” being sent home?

@bkcunningham I agree there. I mostly blame educators who are idiots, and parents who are misinformed. No one is looking at the data or the studies. Lack of science behind these policies.

It would provide interesting but inconclusive information. Certainly, when given a massive infusion of cash and told to use it to improve education, it’s possible to do so. But the question remains, is it possible to get better outcomes with current funding, And it clearly is, and other nations achieve better educational outcomes on a number of metrics (graduation rate, reading comprehension, scores on standardized tests, etc.) with even less spending per student.

Besides, most of those arguing effictively to dumb down education (whatever name they hand on the concept to make it saleable) argue from within an evidence free zone. Using facts and statistics doesn’t convince them of anythins save that you are one of those hated elitist lefties.