Intricate friend dilemma (details inside)

I wouldn’t beg her for reasons or explain myself or the way I raise my kids to her anymore.
How exhausting.
I would continue to see my friends and if she is there,I would be polite,but not go out of my way to converse with her.
If anyone should ask about the situation,you can choose to explain or not.I would just let it go.Or knock their teeth out ;))
She sounds like a pain in the ass.

I would interact with her at neutral sites so my kids could be with their friends (her kids), but I would avoid talking to her at these gatherings.

There is no fixing this one. She has made up her mind on kind of flimsy evidence that there is a problem. Plus there is her tendency to not discuss issues.

Not much you can do is she is not open to your offers and communications.

She sounds high maintainence emotionally, and I’d just let it be what it is and follow @lucillelucillelucille ‘s advice.

You can’t argue with a made up mind, don’t even bother.

Quit avoiding the large groups because by doing this you are also neglecting to see your other friends (and your children’s other friends). You should be able to play nice in the group setting for their sakes. As far as she goes, I wouldn’t speak to her outside of the large group settings. She was clear that she’s not going to change, so there is nothing you can do about it besides try to stop letting it upset you so much.

This is the way she chose to raise her children, and that tops the list for most moms so I don’t think she is going to let you change her mind.

It’s not just the fact that you bring up your kids differently than she brings up hers; it’s all that that symbolizes for her. I.e., it reflects on you, and it makes her uncomfortable with you. So much so that she isn’t really interested in sorting things out.

My guess is that she thinks you don’t protect your kids well enough. So she doesn’t feel like you would protect her kids. Maybe she thinks that if the kids go outside alone, they’ll get kidnapped or hurt. Maybe she feels that her kids can’t handle what they see on the internet. She may have very tight restrictions on her Net Nanny software.

In other words, she doesn’t like you any more, and she’s not interested in fixing it. I think you’ll just have to wait. Maybe she’ll change her mind. Maybe soon, maybe in years. Maybe never.

So you should not hold back from the gatherings. They are your gatherings, too. You may be uncomfortable being around her, but she seems to not be uncomfortable. What can you do? Continue life with a friend-shaped hole in it.

I’d laugh in her face and continue on as I had been. Surely you can’t be the only mother in the group who’s had this kind of nonsensical non-response from her.

I’ve been avoiding the large meetings because I haven’t calmed down yet. I know I eventually will. The anger comes from having my kids being devastated that her son couldn’t come over and me not knowing why.

I will eventually rejoin the group when I know I can be a little more animated. My kids have been going without me so they aren’t missing out.

We’ve been “friends” for 3 years. It is really maddening that she is not giving me the opportunity to fix it. I even agreed to not letting the kids go outside without me. A little ridiculous as they are so old and we live in an extremely safe neighbourhood. My point was that the kids are really good friends who miss one another and we should be doing everything we can to bring them together.

It’s a teaching moment for your kids to learn that not all people in the world are reasonable, and not every situation is pleasant, but it sounds Like the other relationships you share with these people are worth a little discomfort.
You will never change her.
I can relate to the hurt you feel. When my first husband committed suacide I had a friend who told a mutual friend, “I don’t want my kids around hers because it will spoil their innocence.”
The best advice is to keep telling yourself (and your kids) it’s HER problem. Continue doing the group things you do and let HER feel uncomfortable. Don’t allow her psychosis to alter your behavior with your other friends, and don’t allow her to create drama. An attitude of “I’m sorry you feel that way,” without acknowledging that her feelings are valid is the best approach. Your children, her children, and your friends will see you taking the high toad and respect you for it.

I was in a situation that had similarities in parenting styles you suggest here with me being the “pain in the ass parent/friend” but the other parent and family (a long time friend of my daughters) household was involved in drugs, so I really think that the lady your talking about has trust issues, I know I do and these can creep up and unfortunately my daughter pays for it. Do I like it? No. Does she like it, not really. But at the same time it makes it harder for someone like me when I believe trust is the foundation of a relationship. I think you are best to just leave the lady alone. If the kids are meant to be friends there is other ways other than that ask if your kids can go over there, or only invite her kids if she comes along and stays with them. At any rate good luck!

@wundayatta funny you should mention that she doesn’t like me. I’ve felt that for the last year. When I talked to my best friend about it she told me I was reading her wrong. I don’t think I am.

Funny, but she professes to love my family. She adores my oldest son and even went as far as making a homemade book for him to collect his writing ideas in.

I helped her oldest daughter, who she is really worried is on a bad track, get a job with my husband.

She sends a fuck of lot of conflicting signals out.

“We have two differing styles of problem solving: I get everything on the table and negotiate she runs away.”
“I’ve been avoiding situations where we are all together and people are starting to notice.”

Sounds like you are running away by avoiding her in these social settings. You don’t have to suck it up and smile. Show up, be yourself, even if that means frowning and evil glares. She will either recant, back down, or else avoid the problem. Having beef with someone means being involved with them at least mentally. If you want to cut her out, cut the beef out of your mind. It does sound like she is in the wrong. Don’t worry about calm, just don’t lose your shit in front any kids, and you’ll be golden.

You don’t need to fix this, she does. Patience, @tranquilsea, patience. Let the kids work this out, let her work this out. Your need to fix this can’t make it better. Let it fix itself with time. You tried, now I counsel patience. Time smooths things over.

I’ve only avoided two situations. And I know that I’ll eventually get back to this group. I also have a TON of other things going on in my life and the added drama that is her right now is a little too much to handle.

@everephebe LOL on the contradiction. Sometimes I need time before I can confront a situation.

Not much you can do. But why do YOU have to avoid the group?
She’s the one that’s griping.
Let HER decide where she wants to hang out.

I would talk with my children and let them know the situation and be honest and up front. If in the group you are asked about these matters I would also be up front and honest about it right out in the open. If the mother is there you should just be truthful. I would not allow anyone else define how I feel or act among my friends. I’m in a situation that is really awkward but I go and just be who I am. I wouldn’t carry a grudge and would not try to confront her in front of the other friends but surely your other friends will notice something going on. So if asked just be honest about it. I think your children need to know what is going on otherwise they will be confused and not understand.

When the kids ask why they can’t see their friends, what do you tell them?

@Summum I have talked to the kids about it because they were very confused and hurt. They needed to know that this wasn’t their fault or their friend’s fault, it was his mother’s issues.

The thing is I really do like her, if I were to put aside all this nonsense. She had really bad upbringing hence the protective upbringing her kids are getting. I get that.

@wundayatta I tell them that she is very protective of what her kids see and where they go. Where that explanation got really tricky was when this friend was allowed to sleep over at my best friend’s house just a block and half away and he wasn’t allowed to come here. My kids found out about it as all the kids were talking about what they did that weekend.

I get that I blew her trust. But I also get that her trust is very easy to blow.

@tranquilsea The reason why I asked is because I wonder if it’s a good idea to make up explanations for other people’s behavior. What if you say, “I don’t know.” Would the kids ask their friends to explain it?

Do your kids still go over to their house, or is that done with, now? Is it that they only see their friends at larger gatherings of some kind? What kind of gatherings are these? Can the kids relate, or are they focused on something else?

@tranquilsea: are you sure she didn’t make up the internet/outdoor supervision reasons just to come up with an excuse to not see YOU anymore? That’s the first thing that came to my mind.

Either way, she’s a bitch and needs to get a grip. That’s a shitty thing to do to children.

@wundayatta We only see them at large gatherings now, some of them happening at her house. She has refused two or three invitations to my house (made prior to me knowing there was a problem).

I know her son is chaffing under her restrictions. He begs to be able to come here and my kids beg to be able to go there. Unfortunately, my kids don’t get invitations to her house.

What were the kids looking at online? Porn, violence, how to make pipe-bombs?

@poofandmook she asks where I am when I’m not there and professes to like me. Alas, her words and her actions don’t add up.

If she doesn’t like me: c’est la vie! I’m not stressed about that. This, for me, is about the kids.

That being said, I think she does like me on some level. When we talk we have a lot in common and we have great conversations.

@tranquilsea That is great and your understanding of the mother is even better. If your view of her sees what she is doing and why it is far better so that judgement is not needed. You are an amazing person and I think that your friend is missing out on a very good friend in you. You are doing what I would be doing so I think you are right on. Smile

It really is too bad that the children are having issues. It really sounds like @poofandmook may be right about what she is doing.

@everephebe They think it was the first episode of Llamas With Hats. After watching it myself I recognize where that is borderline inappropriate. But I can also see why the kids find it funny.

This lady named her son after one of the characters in Dogma. This is the reason I misread her so much.

@tranquilsea – I’m sorry, but from what I’ve read so far, this woman is doing a despicable thing to her children and yours – and my reaction so far (granted, this is my initial reaction) is that this needs to stop now especially since it seems to be spreading.

The real problem that I see here is that kids aren’t stupid. I’ll ask what the result of the talk with your kids was because I would assume that they know that this all is because of something they did, and regardless of what you told them, the restrictions are still in place. They must still feel guilty, and like they are being continuously punished.

Her kid probably feels very guilty as well. This can’t help but spill over into their interactions outside either of your homes – they must feel, at times, like when they are hanging out they are doing something wrong, or that they might do something that will limit their interactions further…that is a lot of pressure.

Could you clarify how the sleepover situation happened? Was the friend’s child at another child’s house, and your children weren’t invited to that sleepover because of this problem? That’s where I see it spreading.

I’d be perfectly honest with my kids, my friends, anyone who asked. I’d want it to trickle back to her that she is doing hurtful things. She might see sense when everyone asks her to rethink her behavior.

@iamthemob The sleepover situation happened because I was trying to address her excuses on why her son couldn’t make it to yet another of my kid’s birthdays. She had told me that he couldn’t come because she was already driving into town on the previous two days and didn’t want to drive in on yet another day. I told her that she could drop her son off at my house on the Friday and we would keep him until Sunday and then drive him back home. She said, “nah, I think we’ll pass”.

After talking with my best friend she talked to her and ended up offering the same thing and after some cajoling and declarations from her that I was making a big deal out of nothing she agreed. So he spent the night there and came here for a couple of hours and then went back to my friend’s house. I’m glad that she allowed that much as he missed my son’s birthday last year and he missed my daughter’s birthday just two months ago.

What happened, though, was the two boys talked about all the things they did at the sleep over and my kids were hurt because they were, in a word, rejected.

There is this feeling that they can’t step a toe over the line. They don’t know what to do or say around him for fear that they will never be able to see him again. When they have been together my daughter acts like a giant censor trying to get everyone towing the line. That is going to cause problems eventually.

Her son is a really neat kid. We all really like him. The other sad part of this whole thing is that my two children represent half of the total number of friends he has.

There is this undercurrent that we are “bad” family. That hurts.

@tranquilsea – that’s, unfortunately, what I thought.

This is not, therefore, something that happened – this is happening. She is causing trauma to your kids, and you know that, and you know that your priority is to stop it – and unfortunately, I see why you don’t know how. There is so much potential to make it worse.

However, you have to weigh the increased short-term harm of having your children’s friendship basically totally cutoff with the benefit of clarity. If they stop being friends, that at least is a resolution.

I’m sorry to say that I feel like this needs to be dealt with head-on. Ultimatums, which I despise, may be the tool that you need to use. This mother is using her control of her child to inflict pain on your family – unconsciously or subconsciously more than likely. So you need to show her, somehow, the harm that she is doing.

I wonder if this is a possibility – you have talked to your kids already, so there’s open communication. Have they talked to her? It may be that they need to tell her their feelings. The first thing that pops into my head is to sit down with your kids, talk to them again, and have them write a letter to this mother. They should apologize for breaking her rules. They can also say that they are completely willing to follow her rules with her kid – they just need to know them clearly. But most importantly is that they express their feelings to this woman. Nothing mean, spiteful, etc. – but honest.

Something like that doesn’t require confrontation by your kids. I would deliver the letters, to her, by hand – and perhaps ask her to read the letters in front of you, so that you know the message was sent.

Is this even remotely something that can happen?

@iamthemob You have given me something to think about. I’m not sure if that course of action would end up making my kids feel worse.

Yesterday my youngest, who is 11, let loose some comment about her not liking our family…in front of my best friend and the friend who is causing problems. The result of that is that I have a long e-mail from my best friend on how I am blowing things out of proportion, how I am inappropriately involving my kids, and how I should just let it go because this is simply a differing parenting style situation. She desperately wants peace and calm and she knows she is not going to get it from the third friend so she is leaning on me to provide it. I think she’s being more than a little unfair.

So this situation is causing problems upon problems upon problems.

I think what I’ll need to do is have a real heart to heart with overprotective mother.

@tranquilsea – Do that if you can – it can’t hurt at all.

The email you received was totally inappropriate, though. You may be making things worse by what you’re doing – but your intention is to fix the problem. And unfortunately it’s your kids that are bearing the brunt of the emotional consequences.

Are your kids allowed to go over to her house, by the way?

We only get invitations when they are having everyone over now.

I really only have two solutions. The first one is to go on and do what others have suggested and try to take the high road and be around her without engaging her. The problem with that is that this will continue to be an issue for my kids, and actually, all the kids in this group. One question I asked her when we had the giant talk about why she’s boycotted my house was if she felt comfortable coming to me if there was a problem between the children again. She told me she wouldn’t. What do you say to that? Actually, what I did say was, “I hope you can.”

My second solution is to talk to her and really lay down what her decision has meant for my family. What I suspect will be the result of that is that she’ll never talk to me again. But honestly, I can’t be held hostage by her insecurities.

@tranquilsea – Her never talking to you again at least provides finality, for you and your family. I can’t help but think that it would, also, be a blessing.

This sounds like a really awful situation. You mentioned before that all of the husbands are friends too. Is your husband friendly with her husband? Maybe your husband could talk to her husband and let him know what is going on (her husband may not know the whole true story of what happened) and your husband could ask him what he thinks they could do to resolve this situation. But he needs to present it to the husband in a calm, easy-going, non-accusatory manner. Is this possible?

The second scenario I see is that you and your husband gently approach both of them while you are at one of these get togethers and say that this “misunderstanding” is really causing you all, especially the children, a great deal of pain and you would like to sit down with the both of them and resolve it. Let them know that you, and your kids, had no intention of harming her kids and that you just want to be able to all get together and you need to find out what would be acceptable terms (from them). Hopefully, they won’t go ballistic on you if you are in a group gathering and you might be able to get them to commit to a meeting.

Or you can write the woman a letter (in as friendly of a fashion as you can) that you are very sorry that your kids showed her kids something on the internet and that it’s been plaguing you (even though that’s not really true, you’re pissed, but she doesn’t need to know how pissed you are) that you’ve never been told what the offending visual online was. You want to make sure that your own kids aren’t being exposed to anything bad either, but if you don’t even know what they saw, then it’s difficult for you to try to help them. Tell her that you never meant her or her family any harm, but this ban on the children coming to your house has really hurt and embarrased you and put you in a position in which you can’t explain to your own children why this has happened. You would appreciate it if the two of you could get together for a heart to heart talk and it’s important to you that she tell you exactly why she won’t allow her children into your home. Then ask her if she would be willing to let them return to visiting your home under any particular conditions and ask her what those conditions would be. Or would she be willing to meet in a nuetral zone with you and your children so that she herself could explain to your children why their friends are not allowed in your home. Tell her that you don’t want to cause her any pain, but you need to resolve this situation and hopefully make some changes and strengthen your relationship with her. Let her know that if you don’t get together and talk about this and get it all out in the open, that the whole thing will continue to cause pain and confusion for your children.

Of course, some of this letter may not be exactly true, because she really is being pig-headed and you are rightly pissed off at her, but she needs to believe that you are being sincere about resolving this matter. Just don’t come across as being pissed off, only come across as being sincere and hurt, which you are.

You might want to throw in the suggestion of inviting your best friend or another female friend along if she doesn’t feel comfortable talking to you alone. You should also ask her if it would be ok for you and your husband to talk to her and her husband (rather than just the 2 of you).

She may completely ignore the letter. If she does, I think you just have to let it go, and explain to your children that their friends mother has some un-resolved issues that are making her unable to let her kids visit (you don’t need to give them much more of an explanation than that, because you don’t really know why, yourself).

Or she may call you up and chew you out. If she does, remain calm and attempt to get her to agree to a meeting. If she says no or hangs up, then the last paragraph is still your only option.

If she actually agrees to have a meeting with you or you and your husband, or you and another friend, try to go to a nuetral place like a coffee shop so that she is less likely to start screaming. Then just ask her politely Why? and ask her to give you specifics, then ask her How? she thinks this situation can be resolved.

I hope this all works out for you guys. : )

This sounds like a terrible situation to be in. Who needs that kind of drama, eh? It sounds like the friend in question is extremely insecure and fearful. Of course, I don’t know the woman, but she sounds emotionally immature. That isn’t a judgement by the way. I just find it strange that she’d decide these things without talking to you about them. She’s clearly made her decision and it doesn’t seem like you’ve got much room to manoeuvre there.
I agree with @iamthemob in that talking to her will give you some sense of closure on the matter. Best of luck with it!

Our husbands really get along well. Just a month ago my husband took her husband to his first NHL game (they are originally from New Zealand). He slept on our sofa as his house is too far away and he needed to back at work at 7am.

My husband has offered to talk to him but I stopped him. I know that they’ve had marital problems and I didn’t want to add to them. This was back when I thought I would be able to reason with her. I may ask him to talk to him over lunch. I can’t imagine that he knows exactly what is going on.

It’s also possible she has over reacted because, secretly, she is jealous of you, your family life, kids etc. and needed a way to get to you in a passive aggressive way.

If she is a competitive type and insecure, these types are just grievances looking for causes.

Either way, contradictory behaviors are a sign of an emotionally unstable personality.

@Coloma if that is the case, and it may be (not that I think I have a life worth the envy) I don’t like the drama. Life is hard enough even with supportive friends and family.

Write to her and tell her something like what you’ve told us, about considering her a friend and so wanting to work on this situation to a resolve that will benefit the kids. Maybe something along the lines of:

A lot of me is surprised, confused and upset you made all of these decisions without talking to me about the incident first. I would have liked you to get my children’s side of the story right away after it happened, directly from them to you. I now feel you don’t trust me to keep the kids away from things you don’t approve of, made worse because you didn’t tell me ahead of time what types of things those are. This no-win situation has hurt my feelings and put awkwardness in our group of mutual friends and also with the kids. Can we please get together to talk about this to the benefit of the kids, at least?

@Coloma That term: a grievance looking for a cause is awesome!

@tranquilsea I think it would really be helpful if you got your husband to talk to her husband (or have all 4 of you together would be even better) because it sounds like her hubby has little or no idea of what has taken place.

Another thought, it might be good for you to do some healing work for yourself before deciding what (if any) actions you’d like to take in the friend group. If I were in this situation I would have been deeply hurt and possibly questioning my parenting style. Parenting is difficult enough without the finger pointing going on here. Hers sounds a bit “helicopter”, and you seem to have more trust in your children. It’s up to the individual to decide what works best for their family. This is a great website/blog that is a community of parents encouraging each other to trust their children and promote independent action and thought- free range kids Things like this might help you to really format your beliefs and then you can decide if it’s all worth it, you win some – you lose some .

@Kardamom

Isn’t it!
One I have long used for some personalities, haha

@tranquilsea

I agree. I live in a drama free zone myself.

@hopscotchy I came to peace within myself a long time ago in the razor like balancing act that goes on between protecting your kids and then letting them explore their boundaries in the safest possible manner. I completely understand the anxiety that comes from imagining every possible harm that can come to your kids. But I was more than a bit dismayed when she levelled that accusation at me as yet another reason she can’t trust me.

Edit to add: And I have been trying to take a bit of a break. I still see them one on one but not in a group situation. I feel very judged.

@tranquilsea Of course you feel judged! It’s preposterous, kudos to you for even trying. It sounds like you have it together as a parent. Noting that along with the rest of the details of this situation it seems very likely that @Coloma has the right idea. Smells like envy to me. Spare yourself the drama, forgive her, and move on.

“I’ve been avoiding situations where we are all together and people are starting to notice”

gross. Live your life. Don’t try to avoid her. Just do what you want to do with the people who love you. If she doesn’t want to be around you, she can miss out. Not you.

Have you thought about sitting down with her husband without her and ask him what it would take for the situation to be resolved, because in not meeting you half way on this, she is deliberately being insulting to you and your husband, and your friendship. You can point out to him that his son has very few close friends, and that her actions are going to cause the end of the family socialization practices, which you would hate because you really like their family. Show him the show, and have your children apologize to him for showing it to his son.

Let him reign in his wife. While this seems old-fashioned and sexist, it sounds like this family errs on that side. You want to create an ally in the husband, without coming out and saying “your wife is a whack job.”

Sounds like a passive aggressive guerilla fighter! We all hold the ideal friend in the back of our mind as we consider this other Mom. We rant and rave about how she falls short. No one can deny it. I certainly won’t deny it. Our ideal friendship model, which we have probably never fully experienced is telling us that this friend is getting close to being too much drama to put up with.

True Friendships are valuable. We start building this bridge because of common interests; to share life. Women especially are wired to experience a good amount of pleasure from forming relationships with people. The unfortunate part of friendships is once again shared with the analogy of building a bridge: It takes time. It takes building on both sides of the river and it takes load testing.

Without introducing too many new questions. I wonder why it is that on day 3 of building a bridge one of the builders decides to test the bridge with six million tons!! If someone was building a bridge by you and it barely spanned the gap with rudimentary road, would you ask if you could test it with your minivan or suv full of children?

Yet we do this with relationships, somehow expecting it to hold up, or maybe we subconsciously want to see it fall. We don’t have to walk too far through life to find those people that watch the bridge burn down and smile with the fire twinkling in their eyes.

It seems that the other mom is subconsciously setting the relationship up for failure. Insecurity issues are the biggest bridge burner I have run into lately.

Perhaps you should hang a “Danger Bridge not safe” sign up and move on down the road to invest more in a relationship that will one day give you better returns. I am sure you are already preparing a list of questions for the next time someone else’s kids are coming over for any length of time or maybe slowing back the minivan off of the bridge and decide that it needs more work before you venture over it again.

Hope this helps.