How do you feel about purity rings?

I knew a girl who put hers in the nightstand when she was being naughty and then brought it out again to wear if she’d been good for a few days. :D

You should really read Jessica Valenti’s The Purity Myth. She talks a lot about how creepy they are (although it isn’t the whole book), including the creepiest part, purity balls, mini-weddings in which a girl basically marries her father until the day when she gets married for real.

@papayalily OMG! A party. That really creeps me out. The whole idea between father and daughter. Ick.

I think they’re a great way for a kid to get their parents off their backs. “But dad, I can be out late with Jeff, I’m wearing my purity ring!”

The whole ceremony thing you describe is creepy, like there is some kind of sex pact between the parent and child. And I don’t think they prevent a kid whose hormones are raging from having sex.

@papayalily What age do these balls or promises occur? Age of the child?

Fine with me. The less premarital sex, the more abstinence, the better.

My sister actually asked for one, both to express her feelings on the matter and as a sort of “please don’t hit on me” sign.

@papayalily I’m willing to doubt the legitimacy of the book. I’ve never heard of anything like that, though I sail the waters of Christendom with some regularity.

@Nullo But, for your sister was it a promise to her dad? Or, a promise to herself? It is the dad part I find very creepy.

@JLeslie During the Bush years, any school who didn’t provide abstinence only sex-ed lost a ton of federal funding.

@Nullo Did you even check it out a little bit before doubting it?

@Nullo I saw a documentary that had one of the ceremonies @papayalily is talking about in it.

@klutzaroo Probably “Daddy I Do”

@papayalily Yeah, I was aware of the federal funding to schools, but directly to a church. Good God.

@papayalily In fact, I rely heavily on a 2–4 -step information flow that will filter out all but the important stuff.
I have not heard anything about your book. While I do not doubt that someone, somewhere, provided material for it (and in good faith), I suspect that they are rather more factional than the author would let on.

I know two girls who wear purity rings. Neither of them report anything weird.

My only concern is the need for the symbol. For boys and girls who are virgins, they don’t need a symbol to realize the importance or the significance of choosing to have sex for the first time.

Ritualizing a promise that, in reality, many will break makes the entire situation one of public shame associated with such a breach. Of course, the more shame, the more likely it will be hidden, negative potential consequences won’t be investigated, etc. etc. Further, such a promise may tend to promote, in a way that abstinence-only education wouldn’t, trending towards sexual activity not amounting to loss of virginity that may be more risky in terms of STD transmission.

@Nullo So because you haven’t heard of it yet (cuz this somehow doesn’t count as “hearing of it”), you’re willing to discount it without even seeing if it’s gotten criticism for being improperly sourced, a lack of sourcing, etc? That seems a bit premature.

@Nullo Check this out. They absolutely do exist, it is absolutely are true. Just because you haven’t heard of it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist or that its exaggerated.

@papayalily It wasn’t that, it was more focused on the event rather than the whole thing. It was from a more neutral stance and was on cable somewhere, kind of like “Sister Wives” or something like that, but focused on the purity rings and ceremonies.

@papayalily Pretty much. I don’t care enough to invest the effort. Honestly, I expect some people to produce and play up the wacky parts of Christianity – @Qingu does it so much that I don’t even bother arguing anymore.
@klutzaroo As I said, I don’t doubt that it exists – I doubt that it’s as bad as everyone thinks.

This is home to some major propaganda, after all.

@Nullo Ok, if you aren’t interested in the effort to learn about it, than I feel like you should forgo the absolute opinion on it.

@iamthemob Good points. If the girl does lose her virginity before marriage, then does she stop wearing the ring? Then everyone would know. Another ick for me. I’m sure none of them actually take of the ring when they break the promise. The point is a girls virginity is nobody elses business but hers. The ring makes it public knowledge. I’m agreeing with you, on the same page, just expanding on the thought.

@JLeslie I think it depends on the definition of virginity. Cuz oral and anal don’t really count ;)

@papayalily You are entitled to your opinions, of course. Just remember that having a purity ring, and supporting abstinence, does not make you a weirdo. There’s creepy purity-ring symbolism, and then there’s non-creepy symbolism for real people. I have provided you with an example of the latter.

@papayalily I know. I assume heterosexual sex that can wind up with pregnancy. I am not counting oral and anal. Regardless, it is the promise to the parent, a girl to her dad that I find icky, whatever type of sex it is.

@Nullo I didn’t say it did – I said promising your virginity in a pseudo-wedding to your father is creepy.

@Nullo it has nothing to do with supporting abstinence, I am fine if a girl wants to be abstinent.

@papayalily @JLeslie Just as long as you aren’t getting your wires crossed.

@Nullo My wires will be in whatever direction I care for them to be in.

@JLeslie – There’s also a perverse incentive to “hide the lie” by wearing the ring even after some people might now.

Considering how high school kids can be, it creates a perverse ostracization incentive for people who know to “out” her, humiliate her – so she gets to be both a slut and a liar.

@Nullo Not at all. Abstinence is fine. Supporting sex education that includes info on birh control and prevention of STD’s does not mean I am against abstinence. Finding it creepy that a girl promises her dad, makes a committment about sex to him, is weird. I remember being a preteen and suddenly cuddling with my dad became odd. As we become sexual beings, our relationship with the parent of the opposite sex usually changes.

I just don’t think a girls sexuality should be for public consumption. So now instead of wearing a scarlet A, we have the reverse a purity ring?

@JLeslie Nobody’s mandating the ring.

Ew. I never knew what they were before. Weird creepy ick.

Creepy

REALLY creepy, apparently this child thinks that its a sin against God and her parents to ever kiss a boy.

Interesting

Interesting

They’re fine. I’ve never heard of it being between a parent and a child. I wore one for a bit..I chose it for myself, but I’m not a ring person and I don’t need something to show my personal choice. If it gives someone happiness, let them be. I don’t think it matters if they wear one or not. The only thing that matters is if they care about the message behind it. What’s wrong with that? It’s not just for girls either. It’s for both sexes.

@Nullo I would guess some parents kind of push it on their kids. Might be a minority though, I have no idea. Maybe it is trendy among some? They talk about it at a church, or a family at home, and then some girls start wearing them, and then other girls want one to fit in and want one. Not to say the girl really believes she wants to keep that promise at the age of 13, but as she gets older she might change her mind. Might not want a public declaration of her virginity status. I would guess some girls stop weaing it, kind of grow out of wearing it, whether still virgins or not. Most of the famous people who made their virginity and promise of abstinence public regretted it later on. Brooke Shields, Brittany Spears, Jessica Simpson.

@JLeslie I keep hearing that the stats on the people breaking the pledge are in the 80–90% range. This doesn’t surprise me at all.

Purity balls were first founded in 1998 by Pastor Randy Wilson and his wife, Lisa, down in Colorado Springs (Denverite here: that place is freaking weird). They felt that “the protection of the daughter’s purity rested on the shoulders of the fathers”. Fathers then pledge “I, [daughter’s name] father, choose before God to cover my daughter as her authority and protection in the area of purity.” Some girls recite the virginity pledge as they give little pink boxes (ahem!) to their fathers. Some fathers participating in the balls give their daughters a charm necklace with a lock and key. The daughter keeps the lock and her father holds onto the key until she gets married and key give her the “key” to her husband.

Queasy & nauseous sum up my feelings about so called “purity” rings.

Frankly the idea of fathers symbolically or otherwise owning their daughters hymen translates to me as quasi-incest.

I thought this fad went out with the Jonas Brothers.

IMO, purity rings and the associated hoopla are about consumerism and “keeping up with the Joneses”. People do it so they fit in with their chosen peer group and then do all they can to keep up the appearances. A ring is not a chastity belt.

Can’t say I’m a fan. A goofy concept, really. A person can choose to be abstinent without the need for a ring or a pledge. I don’t seem to think of it as “creepy” as many of you seem to, but I don’t know much about it and I’ve never known anyone who had one. Doesn’t seem to be very popular among liberal California college students…

@psychocandy – I think the purity ring phenomenon is more about “keeping up with the Jonases.” ;-)

@psychocandy This all started WAY before the Jonas brothers brought attention to it.

@DominicX Yeah, it’s definitely more of a conservative Christian Right thing.

@klutzaroo Good links. I had not realized the balls were for bunches of dads and daughters who are all making a promise that night. When @papayalily first mentioned it I thought it was a parent throwing a party and inviting people to witness the pledge. Like a wedding or barmitvah.

@JLeslie In a way, its even creepier. :P

@klutzaroo You think? Why? Because it seems so organized? Institutionalized? Peer pressure? I think I find the first way I thought of it as creepier. Just me.

Even father daughter dances are weird to me. What if a girl doesn’t have a father, she has to feel like shit among her peers? Why can’t it be a dance where families come, girls, boys, dads and moms.

So you’re wanting our opinions on this? For me I think…Nahhh I don’t like the idea, teenagers should know when the time’s right. But if they cross the boarder it’s their fault. It’s going to have to be the consequence they’ll have to face. I don’t think we need rings to be abstinent, just have to think responsibly. Knowing if Obama’s doing that…I can’t say don’t keep up on it!

I imagine purity rings are an excellent way for sexually active girls to divert their parents’ attention from the fact. In much the same way that many teens who smoke adopt a piously anti-smoking posture.

The real problem are unwanted pregnancies not premarital sex. How about inventing a wanted pregnancy ring? That would make more sense to me.

I don’t mind if the girl/guy chooses to wear one on their own accord, maybe they want to display the fact they are proud of being abstitnent. But I would question the parenting skills of the mother and father if they think forcing their son/daughter to wear one is actually going to stop them.

Once they’ve made the decision to become sexually active, it wouldn’t be easy to persuade them otherwise (and why should anyone?). Like some other answers here suggest, it looks like it could change from an innocent gesture of respecting oneself into a very creepy, and just plain wrong, situation involving the parents.

What I don’t like about this is why all these “pastors” and “fathers” are trying so hard to keep their daughters innocent, but what about the sons? Oh yes it’s fine for them to sleep around with as many women as they like, they were born that way! But it’s completely out of bounds and against their beliefs for their daughters to do the same. I don’t know why I sound so surprised though…

Woops, one too many letter t’s in abstinent.

@JLeslie All the things on your list, lol. Mostly because everyone else is doing it and the girls don’t have a choice. They’re made to do it, told they’re doing it and put into the situation. Its not a promise they make based on any decision from them, its this mandated promise that they are required to make in front of everyone to make their parents feel better about themselves. Its creepy and disgusting.

@klutzaroo Yeah, that too.

@ilana As a son of Christian parents (my father is ordained) and a Christian myself, I can tell you that there was just as much encouragement for my own abstinence as for my sister’s. There are purity rings for guys out there, but for some reason they don’t trip the secular “omg creepy” switch.
A lot of what gets called creepy is, in fact, a simple misconstruing of context.

@Nullo I agree on the misconstruing of context. I have been reading this thread in amazement that something so special as the love between a parent and a child is ridiculed in such a cruel manner by some posters. My husband was the first man to give his daughters flowers, the first man to hold them in his arms, the first man to love them, the first man they kissed, the first man to dance with them, the first man to cry for them in joy and grief, the first man to offer their hands in marriage to another man,...I could go on and on. I think it is a sign of loving your child and something special between these people who decide to have this discussion with their children and make a public display of the promise (in the sense of a marriage being a public display of the promises made between a couple is private but done in public as a celebration. The marriage may fall apart, but that doesn’t degrade what the intent was about, IMO.) that perhaps some don’t understand.

@bkcunningham Yet not all men are as pure and good as your husband. Especially those who see it as their right to own and control their daughters. If people are ready to embrace the idea of ownership of women, they are more than halfway to abusing that idea and the women owned.

@bkcunningham Except this is about sex. Something only done with intimate partners. Taboo between father and daughter. This is not about discussing sex to advise your child, but a declaration. All those other things you named are normal between father and daughter.

@JLeslie it is about discussing sex, intimacy, your body, the preciousness of your body and marriage among other things with your children.
@klutzaroo thank you for the nice words about my husband. I suppose I see it differently than you. Neither I nor you can speak for each of these families in a collective sense. I don’t see the ownership of women having anything to do with this symbolic gesture between parents and their children.

@bkcunningham Dude, you’re promising your hymen to your father, presented to him in a pink box. Ew. I’m all for fathers taking a bigger part in their daughters lives – but is it at all possible for them to maybe be more involved in all other areas, first, rather than often absent except for her hymen?

As @klutzaroo points out above – there seems to be a disconnect – abstinence pledges seem to have no impact on premarital sex except for a decline in safe sex practices.

Abstinence is clearly the best policy – but my concerns about this trend are multiple. First, as mentioned above, there’s the concern about public shaming. Second, I think wearing a symbol on your hand constantly reminding you of sex is a bad idea for teens, hormones ablaze. Third, for the girls, I feel like at least in some cases (although this may not be significant) it would make them targets of sexual advances – what a challenge for a boy to beat the pledge. Fourth, it reminds me too much of the chastity belt when there’s the father involved.

I don’t question the intentions of the families involved (I do those who are producing the rings) – I just think that this is a very private thing, and these discussions should be had in the home, within the family, and not dragged into the public.

No, @bkcunningham, its not about “discussing sex, intimacy, your body, the preciousness of your body and marriage among other things with your children.” Its about coercing and requiring a public promise of virginity from children as young as 9 who can’t even begin to understand the impact of the pledge they’re making. Its grown men saying that they owns their daughter’s body and being condoned for it by being in a group of other men making the same statement and by their wives who agree to it. Its about manipulation and control, not anything positive for the girls.

Its also parents denying children any information about safe sex so that if they do break their pledge, they’re more likely to be damaged by it whether emotionally or physically with pregnancy or an STD from lack of access to and knowledge about condoms.

This feels like it’s likely related to the fact that, in making such a formal promise, in breaking it they hide as much as they can – and the people hiding are less likely to be able to get birth control for fear of getting caught – and in the case of being “caught” of guard definitely wouldn’t be prepared.

@bkcunningham You know, @klutzaroo is really onto something here with the public part – it wouldn’t be quite as creepy (still creepy, but less so) if it wasn’t a giant, public thing. But what’s wrong with saying “my (daughter’s) virginity status (or lack thereof) is none of your damn business – that’s a private matter, not a public matter”? I feel like the Christian Right is normally a big fan of private matters, like sex, staying private – they are the ones pushing for smut and whatnot to be less in our faces in public and more behind the closed doors of the marital bedroom.

I think it’s incredibly creepy—it makes young girls tie their developing sexuality to their fathers instead of more appropriate targets of their own age.

If you think about it, the fascist, radical right is sexually perverse on many levels. If you don’t believe me, just go to a Promise Keeper’s rally—the noise from the stadium, all good, Christian, god fearing conservative Americans, is something you’d expect from the audience at the pornography video awards.

The overemphasis the radical right puts on sex and on controlling women’s bodies makes sex more perverse in the minds of young people than it would ever be without the help from the gawd fearing radical right. Fascism (and the radical right is fascist) is all about obsession with sex; just normal sex activity would be a lot less hazardous to society and the young than the concentration the fascists put on it in the already troubled brains of their poor kids. This way, their kids are thinking about it constantly, looking at their little rings, obsessing over it, hating people who are allowed to actually have it and demonizing them because of this—all that good stuff. The people who do this to kids should never have been parents in the first place. Unfortunately, fascists put a premium on breeding as much as possible. :/

Why are “raging hormones” a problem? Doesn’t the mock marriage mean that it’s okay for the girl to do the dirty with daddy until she gets married?

Purity rings won’t keep pants on.

@ladymia69 No, see, it works the other way. The pants stay on, so the ring stays on. The ring is symptomatic – symbolic, even – of ongoing pantswearingness.

@Nullo If someone wearing a purity ring succumbs to their desires and has sex, would you seriously expect them to take the ring off and flag their intimate secrets to all and sundry? Once the ring is on, especially if it’s a big deal within the family, it’s hard to see it coming off regardless of the wearer’s actual resolve.

Out of interest, are you married? If not, do you refrain from pre-marital sex?

@Nullo the ring isn’t all powerful. It doesn’t deter pants removable. It is as @meiosis says.

Guys, you’re not getting this: the ring is not supposed to be controlling you. And nobody expects it to. That’s Tolkein stuff. It is symbolic of a commitment.

@meiosis I am unmarried, and I abstain.

The irony is that the placing of the ring on a finger is archetypally phallic imagery. The placing of a ring on the finger is a symbol of vaginal penetration, which is why it’s associated with marriage. On an unconscious level, the purity ring sends the exact opposite message of what it’s supposed to be sending: that the wearer is sexually receptive. The “squick” factor comes from the real message being communicated: the young girl is sexually receptive to her father, and only to her father.

I agree with @everephebe. A father should not be thinking that much about the state of his daughter’s cooch, much less staging and attending a public event on its behalf. I can support the idea of a girl or woman abstaining for herself, but to dedicate her virginity to her father carries semi-incestuous connotations.

@Nullo The reason people aren’t as repulsed by the idea of purity rings for men is that, to my knowledge, at least, mothers generally don’t hold purity balls in which their sons dedicate their virginity specifically to them (unless there’s some new trend of which I’m not aware). It’s not the fact of abstinence itself, it’s the context in which it occurs.

@lonelydragon Mothers and their sons attend “Integrity Balls”, in which the son promises to not ruin someone else’s future wife for a moment of pleasure.

@MyNewtBoobs Aren’t those called “Blue” Balls, where the mothers wear blue gowns and the boys wear sad faces? New image in my head for momma’s boys

@MyNewtBoobs Interesting. But that doesn’t have the same revulsion factor, since the guy isn’t dedicating his virginity to his mother.

@everephebe Too funny!

Although I agree that the rings are off and I wouldn’t do the ring or the ball with my daughter, the pronouncements in this thread are harsh and prejudicial. Fluther has this interesting phenomena where everyone throws there opinion in, independent of the credibility of their vantage point. How many of you have actually daughters? The degree with which you chastise and suggest a requisite alienation between father and daughter is very upsetting. Other than BKCunningham’s post there are so little discussions of the right role for a father to play in this situation, but more of a charge to the father to abdicate parenting and get out of the way of the child so they can do what they please.

Then there is the pronouncement of “creepy”. Independent of culpability you can sure cut a man off at his knees with a pronouncement of “Creepy”. The pronouncement of “creepy” is the modern day equivalent of a witch hunt, it’s guilt by accusation.

The statement of Smashthestate is outright ignorant. He should be ashamed and everyone giving him a GA should be ashamed.

I agree with everyone that the concept is off and likely problematic in a very complex issue, for the record, I don’t think I’d do the ring or ball.

@lonelydragon Didn’t Oedipus dedicated his virginity to his mother? That cost him his eye-balls.

@Season_of_Fall Well, all of the women on this thread are daughters, so I feel like we then have half of the right to say what’s creepy and what’s not. Plus, I understand the compulsion to want to lock someone up in a tower until you ship them off to the nunnery, but that doesn’t mean I think actually carrying through with it or doing a purity ball isn’t then unhealthy or creepy.

@Season_of_Fall Since what @SmashTheState said is completely true, its far from ignorant and nothing to be ashamed of.

@klutzaroo, it’s hate speech, and I bet its illegal. Pappilily, it is odd behavior, and I wouldn’t do anything like that with my daughter. But tell me what you opinion is on the role of a father in his daughters decisions with regard to this matter. For me it is the example her mother and I set. I do see it as my job to encourage emotionally and physically healthy lifestyle.

@Season_of_Fall How is it hate speech? It’s a touch hyperbolic, but hate speech? No.

@meiosis, we’re talking about what smashthestate said, right.

@Season_of_Fall Do you mean this comment by @SmashTheState :

“The irony is that the placing of the ring on a finger is archetypally phallic imagery. The placing of a ring on the finger is a symbol of vaginal penetration, which is why it’s associated with marriage. On an unconscious level, the purity ring sends the exact opposite message of what it’s supposed to be sending: that the wearer is sexually receptive. The “squick” factor comes from the real message being communicated: the young girl is sexually receptive to her father, and only to her father.”

What’s hateful about that?

No, that wasn’t it. The other statement was moderated. I won’t try to quote it from memory.
It was what I said it was, I looked up the definition but I’m willing to drop the subject and move on.

Ah, OK. I wish they’d hide the moderated comments, but still leave them accessible to the curious…

@Season_of_Fall – Ah! I didn’t see the moderated one, and I think that’s why I, as well, thought that you were grossly overreacting in mentioning “hate speech.”

One thing I will say, though, is that “hate speech” in the U.S. is almost never illegal. It has to also almost immediately incite a riot or be defamation of some sort.

I wonder if your reaction to other posts was perhaps colored by that though. I agree that much of the sentiment I find to be unduly critical, but I believe a lot of that comes from the fact that when it comes to the balls and the ring and the commitment ceremony, there’s an “ick” factor because you can’t help but be forced to associate the concept of sex and the father-daughter relationship more and more closely.

@SeasonofFall: I don’t think the point of view of those who judge the chastity ring phenomenon as creepy was at all inappropriate—the people who advanced this view did so quite articulately and did not at all come off as ignorant. The point about the phallic valence of the social signs associated with the rings and its downright perversity when applied to the daughter of a man who wants to meditate on her virginity was quite valid.

No, I wasn’t taking issue with that. I find myself in agreement with the consensus on the rings and balls being off and not something I would do. I really didn’t give the statement of phallic symbolism any consideration. I mostly side with the group on being against the rings and balls, but I felt like the void of positive feedback on what a father should be and do, as well as other speech that seemed to nullify any significance a father had in his daughters life upsetting as did @bkcunningham. Some of the appropriately contexted statements were made by @Nullo, @iamthemob and @DominicX. The question itself I don’t find offensive, most of the others post were what seemed to be a frantic mob frenzy that felt like a lynching of any father daughter relationship.

@seasonoffall: Why SHOULD people give positive feedback for an action that is not in the least positive and smacks of perversity? Why SHOULD people feel obligated to support such a perverse custom as the giving of chastity rings merely because it involves a father / daughter relationship?

Why would you think that ANY father / daughter relationship is threatened with “lynching” merely because THIS particular father / daughter relationship is perverse?

@Electra, you’ve misread me again. I don’t support the ring and ball. What do you think a father’s role should be in relationship to his daughter, and in context to her emotional and physical well being, including her decisions about sex? You still haven’t answered this question. It would seem reasonable that if you disagree with an action you would be ready to offer a conversely appropriate action in the same context. I’d also be curious about your experience with these relationship scenarios. Did you grow up with a father? Do you have daughters and do they have a father in their lives?

Your lack of willingness to address this question makes makes me wonder if your point is suspect to bitterness to this relationship in general.

Interesting. I wasn’t aware I had been censored. Given that this is in social, not general, I am highly annoyed. I left Fluther for over a year because I became cross at the censorship by mob rule here, in which any answer or question which infuriates enough people — no matter how accurate or truthful it happens to be — is sent down the memory hole. Perhaps it was a mistake to return.

@Electra

I think that the problem is that you’re claiming that the practice is inevitably perverse and can not come from a place of love for both the father and child. And it’s not that anyone should give positive feedback – rather, it’s problematic when one universalizes the practice such that everyone doing it is perverse and no one can have good intentions, however misled.

@SmashTheState

I rarely see posts moderated for being flame-bait. You were gone for a year, came back, and even with different people, you’re having the same problems in that you feel like you’re being censored?

You know, if you’re being treated the same way by different people at different times, maybe it isn’t actually everyone else that has the problem…

I stand corrected and retract my statement that, that was illegal.
http://www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights_hiv-aids/aclu-cheers-free-speech-friendly-hate-crimes-legislation

@Season_of_Fall The role of the father in a daughter’s sexuality is to educate and let his wishes be known. It is not to be a property owner until he can sell that property to someone else. Slavery is illegal and proclaiming ownership over a person or a person’s body… getting awfully close. One of the reasons slavery was so awful was that the owners felt that they could do whatever they want with the things (people) they owned. And did a great many horrible things because these people and things that they owned were theirs to do what they wanted with. While some of these men are not the creepy type that we’re concerned about, you’re pretty much guaranteed that at least some of them are those people whose warped ideas about what they can do with the people they own lead to all kinds of abuse. When they’re convinced that this girl’s body is theirs, who knows what can (and invariably in some cases, will) happen? This social construct seems to cross the line with the ownership aspect of the forced promise.

@klutzaroo, The first sentence was what I was looking for, can you expand on that. Oh and the rest of your statement I agree with. I hope you didn’t think I was defending or insinuating in any way that any of that was appropriate. But I’m looking for more on what you were getting at in the first sentence.

@Season_of_Fall Its pretty self explanatory. Tell them what they need to know. Tell them what you want them to know. Let them do whatever they do and remind them now and again what you want them to know. Pretty simple.

Seasonoffall” @Electra, you’ve misread me again.

Electra: How is asking you questions that you avoided instead of answering “misreading” you? Do you know what “misreading” means?

seasonofall: don’t support the ring and ball.

Electra: If you don’t, WHY did you pretend in your above post that dislike of this disgusting practice somehow shows negativity toward father / daughter relationships in general? This sort of strawman typically comes from someone who precisely DOES want others to accept the practice that this person disavows. It’s an old rhetorical trick I’ve seen a lot among people who can’t really debate and so try poor, obvious manipulation tactics.

seasonoffall” What do you think a father’s role should be in relationship to his daughter, and in context to her emotional and physical well being, including her decisions about sex? You still haven’t answered this question.

Electra: I have in the context of this thread, because I’ve very clearly stated what a father’s proper role in regard to his daughter is NOT: no one who takes a sexualized, inappropriate role meant to curtail his daughter’s normal sexual relationships is being a good, even normal father.

seasonofall: It would seem reasonable that if you disagree with an action you would be ready to offer a conversely appropriate action in the same context.

Electra: Um, the question was about chastity rings. I find them perverse, for the reasons stated above. Conversely, a normal father / daughter relationship is one in which the father realizes his daughter will engage in normal sexual relationships—that is, sexual relationships that do not involve him.

seasonoffall: I’d also be curious about your experience with these relationship scenarios. Did you grow up with a father? Do you have daughters and do they have a father in their lives?

Electra: And you accuse ME of “not answering the question,” which is a variation of the claim that one is misdirecting the thread. Ironic, that. I grew up with a father who didn’t do perverse, incestuous things with me—that is, I grew up in a family that realized that I would eventually have normal sexual relationships and my father realized that.

seasonoffall: Your lack of willingness to address this question makes makes me wonder if your point is suspect to bitterness to this relationship in general.

Electra: So, because I did not answer a question that was not asked (my opinion of chastity rings was asked; how would this involve MY relationship with my father, since it was a normal one), you invent an excuse to implicitly insult me—I don’t take the point of view you are passive aggressively endorsing, so I must be “bitter about these relationships.” Wow, why not go the whole hog and say that because I don’t endorse obscene Christian / conservative rituals, I simply must be a lesbian who was raped by my father? Go on, give it your best shot!:D

smashthestate: Interesting. I wasn’t aware I had been censored. Given that this is in social, not general, I am highly annoyed. I left Fluther for over a year because I became cross at the censorship by mob rule here, in which any answer or question which infuriates enough people — no matter how accurate or truthful it happens to be — is sent down the memory hole. Perhaps it was a mistake to return.

Electra: I’ve been having the exact same experience—if you don’t toe the party line set forth by a lot of illiterates, you get attacked; when you get attacked and respond, you’re the bad guy for having the nerve to defend yourself against a lot of buffoons who claim you’ve used logical fallacies that they don’t even know the meaning of.

Please stay around, though—I’m leaving if ALL the other normal people leave.

iamthemob: @Electra
I think that the problem is that you’re claiming that the practice is inevitably perverse and can not come from a place of love for both the father and child. And it’s not that anyone should give positive feedback – rather, it’s problematic when one universalizes the practice such that everyone doing it is perverse and no one can have good intentions, however misled.

Electra: Many child molesters claim when caught that they were lonely and kidnapped children and slept with them for this reason. In short, they may have had good intentions, or at least understandable ones. Does that mean what they did was any less perverse? No.

So, some fathers who do the chastity ring thing with their daughters may have good intentions. It’s still perverse, on every level.

iamthemob: @SmashTheState
I rarely see posts moderated for being flame-bait. You were gone for a year, came back, and even with different people, you’re having the same problems in that you feel like you’re being censored?
You know, if you’re being treated the same way by different people at different times, maybe it isn’t actually everyone else that has the problem…

Electra: You mean, if enough people of a certain republican / religious mentalities frequent this site, it means that anyone who disagrees with the way they treat dissenters is right and the dissenters are wrong for having the nerve to disagree with them? Because that’s what you said in effect.

What I’ve seen on several different Internet sites is this: people gravitate toward a site because the majority of the people on it share their general world views / perspective; when some of these people leave, others appear and stay for the same reason. These are people of similar mentalities and they all treat dissenters the same way. From what smashthestate has said, it sounds like he’s run into something very like this.

@Electra Not at all. On any of it. It appears that in your all of 5 days on the site that you’ve managed to form an opinion of the general population on fluther that is far from reality as pretty much everyone else sees it. Fluther is not populated by idiots (nor moderated by illiterates) and perhaps if you decided to give people a chance (and take in what they write) rather than insulting them, you might find your experience different. If you decide to call everyone idiots all the time, your experience is not likely to improve much. There’s so much more I could say, including about commenting on situations that your know nothing of, but I’ll leave it at that.

@Electra

Regarding the perverse issue – the problem with calling an entire practice perverse is that your succumbing to a kind of moral absolutism. Because from the outside it’s symbolic of a certain type of relationship, the entire practice is tainted by that perversity. Of course, it denies the validity of an internal perspective…and prevents us from being self-critical.

Regarding the flame bait – if the opinion had been expressed in a way that wasn’t meant to derail the thread, pervert the discussion, etc., then I wouldn’t care if I disagreed with it or if most people did, etc.

The fact that these sites are self-selecting is an unfortunate, and human, phenomenon. What I will say is here I’ve seen a whole lot less crazy than on other internet forum, and part of that is based on the attempt to keep the conversation civil.

So, I find that when people are accusing the moderators or the group of censorship, I find it’s often because they’ve merely been asked to “disagree without being disagreeable.” If that’s too much for someone – well, why should I be required to privilege the fact that they want to be obnoxious over the fact that I appreciate the general civility here.

[Mod Note] To those who feel their quips are being removed due to content check yourselves. We promote good debate and encourage both sides to express their opinions.

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@Dog is clearly a little fed up with the BS now. ;-)

“To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid, you must also be well-mannered.” — Voltaire

“Civility costs nothing, and buys everything.”—Mary Wortley Montagu

As a father of two young girls, this is how I see my responsibilities as a parent.

When they are old enough, I am responsible for doing what I can to ensure that they are very well informed regarding the biology of sex and reproduction, that they have a healthy attitude towards sex (i.e. there is nothing immoral about masturbation or consensual sex), and that sex is wonderful with someone you care about. But with that wonderment comes responsiblity. Like the responsibility involved in protecting against disease and unwanted pregnancies, and understanding the strength of emotion that can come from being intimate with another person…and that this raises the risk of being hurt and hurting others, if either party isn’t being honest.

In short, have fun, be safe, don’t hurt anyone, and stay away from idiots. That is what I hope to pass on to my daughters.

The problem with purity rings is that it distorts something positive when well informed, into an issue of control, naivity, and obligations to one’s family. I see it as a step in the wrong direction towards what can be expressed tragically in some honor cultures, in which a child’s sexual beahaviour is a responsibility to the family, rather than the result of a personal (and hopefully informed) decision.

Just returned to this Q after a wonderful vacation in Florida. I really liked the discussion. Thanks to all who participated.

@Season_of_Fall you commented that you wanted people to articulate what exactly people think the father should do or what the relationship should be like between father and daugher, and my only comment about that is it was not part of the original question, so it does not seem odd to me that people did not go one step farther in the initial responses to address it specifically. I guess you felt many jellies felt comfortable explaining specifically why the ring and parties are creepy, but showed no balance with what specifically would be balanced and acceptable? It seemed to me people were simply supporting why they thought it undesireable. Maybe we should ask a separate question about what is perceived as normal between father and daughter regarding certain topics?

As the father of two young girls also, I couldn’t put it better than @AdamF