What is the most subtle form of racism?

The most subtle form is asking ‘innocent’ questions.

I think consumer racism is the most subtle form. By this I mean that, as a white person, I am guaranteed to find band-aids, ankle/knee/elbow/etc. braces, pantyhose, makeup, underwear and a host of other products that are made for people with my skin tone in just about any drug store, grocery store or any other retailer. This also means that if these products are offered for people with different skin than mine, that the products meant to match my skin will be the standard. For example, a bra that matches my skin tone is called “nude” but a bra that matches a black woman’s skin may be called “chocolate,” “mocha,” or even just “brown.”

Edit to add: @markferg, I’m going to disagree with you there. I think it depends entirely on the kinds of questions. For example, I have a very good friend whose parents are from Ghana. She is first generation American so she is still very steeped in the culture. I ask her a lot of questions about Ghana and the culture and she is more than happy to answer my questions. Also, because she is black, I ask her questions about things like hair maintenance because her hair is very different than mine. She has also expressed regrets that she can’t give me the same hair style that she has simply because my my hair is of a wildly different texture than hers. I don’t think either of us is being racist. I think we are just curious about each other’s differences.

My vote would be for microaggressions. Those little invalidating things people do without realizing it. The one I get most often is “No, what are you really?” as if I’m from Exoticland. :/ Seriously? If I say American, you don’t believe me? Why not? Some other examples of microaggressions are what’s been stated above, as well.

When you let people know they’re doing something like that (because I’ve had my share of POC get in some of those on me as well as white folks), they get so angry, as if you’ve accused them of strangling a newborn puppy.

Nobody’s saying that someone is a bad person for having and acting out a bias, but to see that there is bias happening for no good reason and they may want to check out where that’s coming from and deal with it. I’ve had to check myself, too! We’ve all done it.

The most subtle form of racism of which I am aware is the expectation that someone will be unable to perform a task well because of their race.

Positive stereotypes like Asians are good at math or black men have big dicks are subtle forms of racism. We might think the stereotype is an asset, but by thinking these things we are seeing a person not as an individual, but as a race.

Good point, @KatawaGrey. That makes me think of Crayola crayons and pencils – when I was a kid, the peach colour was called “Flesh”, then sometime in the 80s (I think) they changed the name. Same with “Indian Red”.

IMHO, the most subtle and insidious form of racism is minorities who actively work towards preferential treatment of their group while at the same time convincing themselves that such behavior not racist.

Bottom line: including race as a factor in any decision making process is, by definition, racist and until everyone quits doing so we will never achieve that idyllic color blind society.

The most subtle form of racism is denying that you have any of it.

I think the most subtle form is when the “race” actively looks for things to be offended by so they can use the “racism card” for whatever reason….

@janbb lol…how is not being racist racism…?

I’m with janbb. Not acknowledging that there are differences and pretending everyone is the same. We’re all different. That’s part of what makes the world go around.

I think this is going to be a hard question to answer, because “most subtle” for some is going to be “invisible or even non-existent” for others. Still, a good question to think about, though.

One of the most subtle forms that I can think of is simply “noticing” race.

I grew up in a household that was more or less “casually” racist. My parents were thirty years older than I, and I’m “late middle age” myself, so we’re really talking about a different era. They had grown up with some forms of racism themselves (and other forms of bigotry as well), so they had toned it down a bit (they weren’t racist or bigoted in an overtly hostile way), and I’ve tried to consciously root out the vestiges of racism and bigotry that I grew up with and adopted mostly unknowingly.

For a long time I thought I was doing really well. Then one day, oh, fifteen years ago or thereabouts, I happened to see an interracial couple and I thought two things in quick succession: “What a nice-looking interracial couple” and “Why am I even noticing that they are an interracial couple, anyway?”

So I’m still a work in progress.

@WasCy

We’re ALL “works in progress.”

@coffeenut Because I don’t believe there is anyone raised in this society who has no racism so I think it is more beneficial to look honestly at it within yourself than to deny it. (But maybe I’m wrong.)

I think I have a unique perspective on racism. People who see other people groups as inferior are fools at best. More often they are monsters.

The heart of my unique viewpoint is understanding the mind of the racist, and the world as it really is.

Chinese people eat rice. That is part of their culture. A racist would turn cultural characteristics, like that, into tools for branding them with shame.

But that is where the solution also lies. We are all different, not just races, but especially individually.

Bacteria successfully mate to produce ever more incurable infectious strains. There is no racism in a bacteria colony.

So it is the great privilege of men to be able to live among the diaspora of many races, whereat on the first level of being, reproduction, our differences are our hope for overcoming diverse challenges.

What then is reproduction, but the passing of information, and truth of the world on to the future?

The racist fails to understand their own nature. They fail to see the challenges we face.

My chief thought here is that racism is just a rather evil class within discrimination, but this same discriminatory evil would exist even if there were only one race.

Like it or not some have natural assets. Those characteristics shouldn’t be denied. They shouldn’t be overly valued either, because the bottom line is that we are all terrifyingly fragile.

Let us all patiently, kindly, perfect ourselves, and each other.

I think that being overly sensitive about trying not to be racist is the most subtle form of racism. Like there is an elephant in the room, or they are walking on eggshells. And when people go ask their black friend if what they said was ok or say to somebody who thinks that they are being racist, “No it’s I’m not racist, I have black friends.”

I think in one way or another, everyone is racist on a daily basis however subtle.

Also, (because everything else is GA and I don’t want to repeat the same stuff…)
When in commercials the families all tend to ‘match’. Sometimes the company will go “outside the box” and choose a non-white family (and that’s omg), but they’ll still match. It’s the rare commercial that doesn’t do that.
We still see caucasian as the default, everything else is exciting and different because it’s ‘nonracist’, which is wrong. Pointing it out like it’s so out of the ordinary or so so so wonderful makes it racist.
Interracial marriages are still made a big deal of, because “whoa, they don’t match! how cool! (or, worse, how strange…)” Either way, wrong.

It’s not that I’m saying our appearances aren’t different and aren’t noticed, they are. We’re all different. I just wish we’d acknowledge, include, and not fixate.
Things like, in the beginning all you really knew about Obama was “this is so huge, he’s black!!” And it’s more complicated than that, I know, because this is an attempt to undo the racism. But I feel like this was fixation again. Noticing, fine, but there’s so much more to a person than skin tone. Acknowledging and then moving on to what’s inside, making people more than just their skin, doesn’t that do more?
It’s a bit better now, but I still feel the echoes from the beginning, not he’s our president and he’s black, but he’s our blackpresident.

Or things like: I was with people talking about where racism comes from, and they were coming up with all these weird, near-excuse reasons, as to why it came about. “Oh, dark skin tapped into people’s natural fear of the unknown of night” “Sun was light and it was seen as safety”, etc etc. That’s total bullshit. If people who lived in sunnier climates had captured people from less-sunny climates to enslave, then it would be the opposite. But it was those lighter-skinned people who travelled around the world to capture other people to enslave. So they dehumanized those with darker skin. That simple. We need to acknowledge, fix—not fixate, and move on—

Or, “well it’s natural to find those different from yourself scary and unfamiliar”. Again, not true. I was little and skin color was never made into any sort of anything, so I didn’t even notice it until in school they started to talk about racism. And then I was upset, because I realized I started focusing on skin color. Then, in high school, all I heard all the time was “what are you? cause I think you’re _____ but I’m not sure” and then I started doing it in my head, too, labelling people.

Yes, we need to teach ourselves the mistakes of history, and racism, slavery, dehumanization, huge and horrible and ugly mistake. We shouldn’t ignore it in any way.

But, racism is a learned behavior. We need to stop making such a big deal out of being not-racist, and just do it. Making things stand out has the same effect as racism itself. Because then, instead of everyone equal, it’s “whoa! we’re all becoming equal even though we’re different! how new is this! let’s pat ourselves on the back for being so marvelous and forward thinking…” Nevermind there’s still so much out there we need to fix, so much out there isolating and separating “races”.
We should find what is still racist in our society, and change it. Just change it. Since people do pick up on subtlety.

I wish I remembered where this idea came from, but someone was talking about this: that people who don’t want change are fine with people protesting for it, so long as the people are separating everything in their attempt for equality. It becomes the races against each other fighting for equality, and then the race lines (which are fake and man made to begin with) are even more defined.

Hm, I’m out of time… hope this makes sense…

I hate the word “diversity!” It’s nothing more than a buzzword. Code for, “I really don’t know how this is going to affect us all, nor do I know what to do about it, but if we come up with a really neat name for it and use the name a lot, we can make people think it’s kewl!”

As far as I’m concerned, it’s one of the worst forms of racism.

My opinion on it is similar to what @WasCy stated about even noticing. The fact you think about or on some subliminal level treat a person different for whatever or whoever they are is at a very basic level of bias.
We are all people and created equally. Do blind people have any more or less racism tendencies? I think not.
Should you change your point of view of a person or what you say or think about them just because you know what they look like, where they are from or know there lineage?
Being biased for any reason about a person for this is wrong.
So in short my feeling is that it is about biasing your thought of a person based on anything before they even open their mouth.

I think the most subtle form of racism is the cult of personal responsibility.

There are several elements of it, some building off of what has already been said.

(1) In order to be subtle, it must be insidious – meaning that it works to reproduce effects that are racist regardless of our intent or knowledge that what we are doing produces such racist effect.

(2) Insidious racism is rarely personal racism, but rather institutional racism.

(3) Institutional racism requires only passive and not active participation, which is why I believe @janbb is right to state that we are all racist to one level or another because we cannot avoid participating in a system that produces a discriminatory class structure, arguably without any intention to do so, that favors one race over another. It is also why I think @Ltryptophan brings up an important point in that we must recognize that there is a world as it is, and a world as we believe it should be.

(4) The cult of personal responsibility mandates that we should punish people for their actions, let them succeed or fail based on their own merit, etc., without regard to “excuses” because everyone is given free choice. However, the effect is that we ignore underlying causes for setting up the situation where choices were made. For instance, whereas obesity is epidemic in many minorities in the U.S., the cult of personal responsibility considers it an affront to bring suit against fast food companies for the harm of eating too much of the food because it was “their choice.” Indeed – but an episode of Harry’s Law brilliantly sums up most of the problems with that argument – see it here (skip to 27 minutes into the program and watch the opening statement from the plaintiff’s attorney). The cult of personal responsibility in many ways ignores the fact that institutions have an effect on both the way we think and practical options available for us – in a manner that we get to set people up to fail, and then blame them when they do, all in a manner where the intent may be good overall, but the effect is we forget to hold institutions responsible as much as people.

@iamthemob

You can’t incarcerate an organization or an institution, neither do they have a conscience or a morality. Only people have those, and only people can be held responsible, both for their own actions and for the actions of the institutions they guide or to which they belong.

In the military, we had what were called “force multilpliers.” They were anything that gave the individual soldier greater impact on the battlefield. This is how I view media, institutions, organizations, etc., in the civilian world; they are all multipliers of what individuals do, say, or believe. Only individuals can be held accountable.

@iamthemob Awesome reference in the video link.
@CaptainHarley you can and should hold an institution liable for things like this. Simply look at the tobacco industry. Yes people do make the final choice, but there are influences that can seduce people into believing things.

@Adirondackwannabe Seeing differences has nothing to do with racism or denying racism. It’s what you think those differences mean that’s a problem. Same with biological sex.

A woman once said, when we were discussing interracial relationships, and how she couldn’t bring any non-white men home: “They’re not racists (her parents)....they just don’t want it in the genes, ya know?”.

To the OP: the most subtle form of racism, I believe, is internalized racism that people have about themselves.

I am wondering what everyone makes of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRwK_XVfm0I

@CaptainHarley – Therein lies the theoretical problem with the cult of personal responsibility – responsibility and accountability become collapsed. An institution may not be “responsible” for certain results, but it can be held “accountable” – in legal terms civilly if not criminally. Individuals can be both responsible and accountable – but what the cult does is privilege responsibility above accountability – indeed, the fact that there are “force multipliers” is an argument that responsibility in some cases is diminished even if in the end we must recognize co-accountability. To say that, using the fast food reference, a person shouldn’t be held responsible or accountable at all for succumbing to the influences of the fast food industry is ignoring that they have some of the blame. But the cult exaggerates that to the point that, therefore, they have all of the blame. (did you watch the video? It brings up a very balanced view on that point I think…)

@Simone_De_Beauvoir The differences don’t really make any difference, do they? They just are what they are. Does that make any sense?

@Adirondackwannabe They are just differences. I attach no positive or negative value to them.

Everyone is racist to a degree and the people to watch out for are those who say ‘I am not a racist’ It is almost like a badge that racist people wear.

When Berlusconi commented on Obama’s tan. And that of his wife.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/28/obama-tan-berlusconi

@Adirondackwannabe and @Simone_De_Beauvoir: I understand what you’re both saying and I agree with it. Some people call me racist for asking my black friend about how she does her hair. That’s not racist. That’s curiosity based on a physical characteristic. If I thought that my hair was better than hers because it is blonde, smoother, finer, etc. then that is racism.

I think in some cases racism is very clear but in others it can go either right or left. We are all born with a preference. Most babies for example will favor people who look more like their parents or who may smell like them or sound like them in some way. Doesn’t make them racist. But we grow up with these preferences. Racist behavior comes to play when we purposely assume behaviors to be attached to a certain group because one person said or did something you did not like and so you assume all from that culture is like that and you decide to hate them for it.
As for Obama, and the example you gave, I’m not sure if that is racist or simply the political arena at their worse. Sour grapes.

Can we come to a consensus about something? I think it’s important to differentiate “prejudice” and other similar terms from racism…

Racism, for me, is either the belief that one race is better than another or the privileging of one race over another – based fundamentally on the the race itself.

People who keep focusing on race and don’t actually seem to “understand” and keep calling others racist as a means of feeling superior because they think they get it and others don’t. “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.” Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

@bkcunningham – But that’s not the underlying motivation for all accusations of racism?

And I would say that “color blindness” is, in many ways, another subtle form of racism in the way that it allows for a willful blindness towards any effect of institutional racism.

@KatawaGrey Exactly. Your black friend knows she’s black, so lets just accept people the way that they are. I have friends that can write computer programs in their sleep. It doesn’t make them better or worse than me, it means they’re better programmers.

I think once you are in a situation where you’ve said “I’m not racist,” you’re probably racist, LOL

Woman: I prefer dating black men

Lefties: Nothing wrong with having a preference

Woman: I prefer dating white men

Lefties: OMG YOU RACIST!!!!!!!111!11!1

I’m a lefty, and I don’t care who consenting adults date, @syzygy2600.

@aprilsimnel: I agree with you. I think if someone wants to date another person based on skin color, it’s no different than if they wanted to date that person based on hair color or body type. Now, dating an Asian because she or, let’s be fair, he is considered a sexual dynamo, that’s racism.

Okay, that’s my last comparison. I promise.

@mrrich724

“I think once you are in a situation where you’ve said “I’m not racist,” you’re probably racist”

Hmm… does that mean that if you are ever in a situation where you’ve said “I’m not a pervert” you actually are one?

@aprilsimnel Like most of the responses in this topic, its a generalization, not an absolute truth.

[mod says] This is our Question of the Day!

The most “subtle” form of racism is also the most insidious. Whenever a person treats some “other” person differently than anyone they think of as “like them”, they are engaging in racist behaviour. It does not matter if that different treatment is kind or unkind, it serves to separate that “other” person in a harmful way.

The most subtle form is civilized ethnocentrism. Inherent in this is the assumption that the people of other cultures, particularly non-“civilized” cultures, are somehow held “back in time” because they weren’t smart enough to come up with cars and computers themselves, instead of recognizing that they’ve maybe made conscious decisions to live that way. It simultaneously denies that much of the human species has agency, and implies stupidity. In that regard, the very concept of considering technological progression as predetermined is also extremely racist.

@Dr_Lawrence

I feel again like this is a call for a sort of “color blindness” that ignores institutional racism. It also isn’t racist to recognize diversity – treating people differently isn’t “othering” another in a damaging way.

@incendiary_dan

That doesn’t sound subtle at all…;-)

@iamthemob Well, might not have been subtle until the twentieth century, but it became subtle pretty quick. I guess missionaries and conquistadors bringing civilization to natives can’t be considered subtle in anyone’s book. But the U.S. government sending indigenous children to residential schools? Probably where it started to get some subtlety.

@YoBob I’ve NEVER had to say “I’m not a pervert” and my status as a pervert has never been questioned, so I’d comfortably wager to say that if you were in NEED of saying “I’m not a pervert” there are probably at least a few people around you who think you are.

Also:

A bunch of White people monopolizing the narrative of race and racism without even talking about White privilege or the concept of capital W Whiteness.

@syzygy2600 I would question both equally. I think people’s racial preferences are never innocent.

The most subtle form of racism is what has been done to the American Indians. After continent-spanning genocide, many of the remaining members of the native cultures were shuffled into reservations, where they still exist. Those in the majority culture are brought up to believe that the struggles between the U. S. government and the indigenous were over long ago, and everyone has been happily assimilated. The word “genocide” is not used.

When I hear someone proclaim to be colorblind, I interpret that as having learned to ignore that people come in other colors. Not so subtle.

Sorry, broken link above. Should be this

The word genocide is also never used to describe the years of racism, abuse, and murder of Irish people by the British. During the Irish potato famine, the British actually prevented food aid from other countries to go to Ireland. About 1.5 million Irish people starved to death, or immigrated to North American – where for years afterward, people could freely put INNA into classified ads – stands for “Irish Need Not Apply”.

Funny how I never hear lefties talk about that. Probably because Irish people are white, and lefties don’t give a fuck about white people no matter how badly they’re treated.

@syzygy2600 The Irish genocide by the British is a good example. In fact, it’s heavily related to that idea of capital W Whiteness I mentioned; the Irish, though white skinned, were not considered “White” (until it was convenient for someone in power, that is). I remember seeing Craig Ferguson interview Sherman Alexie once, and Alexie had said that “the Celts were like the Indians of Europe”.

“Whiteness is a myth invented by White people.” – Martin Pretchel

But I have to disagree with you on the last sentence; it’s only “lefties” and post-left folks I ever heard talking about it, though I’m sure others do.

Any time you have a clash between a relatively primitive culture and a more technologically advanced culture, there will be conflict, and the more advanced culture will win. Many times, a number of the members of the more advanced culture will try to salve their consciences by referring to the members of the primative culture in a manner to justify their conquest, and in effect relegating them to some sub-human classification.

This does not mean that the more primitive culture was less intelligent or somehow less human, but only that they were less technological.

@syzygy2600 – I understand why you bring up the question, but I feel like there are a couple of practical issues to address in your question:

(1) the reason why “lefties” don’t discuss Irish oppression is because in the U.S. there has been, as @incendiary_dan points out, a re-conceptualization of racial difference such that ethnic/national origins matter less than, let’s say, “Continental” ones. The concern is over modern racial oppression. I don’t see the kind of discrimination in the U.S. happening today.

(2) Genocide as a term was invented and came into common usage after the potato famine…and therefore is generally applied to events occurring after that.

What I do think you illuminate is that what was formerly more of a racial oppression of Irish, Italians, and other ethnic groups may still be seen in certain prejudices or attitudes toward Catholics.

GQ @wundayatta.
My high school was almost completely white. I’ve never had any negative feelings towards people of other races, I’m just not very used to being around them. I’m not proud of that but I also don’t think it’s my fault.
Anyway, going off to college changed that, which was great but also shocking. I found myself displaying some unintentional sort of racist tendencies. At first I felt nervous to talk to international students, only because I worried about ending up in an awkward situation in which I couldn’t understand their accent or something. Well I quickly realized that that was a stupid thing to worry about and ended up being great friends with a few Chinese girls; it is amazing how well they had learned English. The other bad habit I found myself having was not knowing what sorts of jokes or comments would be okay, so just completely avoiding them. One of my best friends at college is black and he was totally comfortable with a little lighthearted back-and-forth between his white friends and himself. I was afraid of crossing the line so I just would never participate in that kind of thing. I don’t agree with trying to be “colorblind” and pretending you can’t even see that someone is different from yourself, but that’s kind of what I did. I imagine it will get better as I get more used to the diversity.
I’ve even found myself being very delicate while writing this reply. I think approaching race with such delicacy is perhaps a subtle form of racism.

@Mariah Great answer. Not everyone is able to be so honest with themselves, and on a public forum.

Intra-racism.

The so-called White Guilt.
Ultimately, worrying about not appearing racist can backfire. Best thing that you can do is to be polite and not worry about it.
@KatawaGrey I believe that the ‘consumer racism’ that you mention is in most respects a regional phenomenon; my mother has commented more than once on the difficulty that she has finding suitable cosmetics in stores located in predominantly black neighborhoods.

@Nullo: If that were true, then the breakdown of products in pretty much every store in every predominantly white neighborhood would indicate that no one of a different race lives in those areas. You’re one of those people who thinks that everyone else is making up racism, aren’t you?

@KatawaGrey Are you calling my mama a liar? ~
There’s nothing racist about stocking what will sell. You have limited shelf space, and it is your duty to make it produce as much money as possible. When you have enough room for two sizes of Band-Aid® brand bandages next to the Store Brand and the Guys That You’ve Never Heard Of™ and the denture cream, you can’t afford to care that they won’t blend with the skin.
I realize that racism exists. But it is my policy to give people the benefit of the doubt until I have reason to do otherwise. That includes shopkeepers.

Stereotype Threat

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ this link, from the following old fluther Q, may give you more than you asked for—you may find yourself scoring strongly negative scores about your perception of another race—scores you find impossible to believe—these quizzes go below anyone’s conscious thinking, feeling or beliefs. I was very surprised and upset at my score until I realized that I never even saw any people of a different race until I was about 12.
http://www.fluther.com/55959/did-you-become-more-prejudice-as-you-got-older/

Very subtle racism is when you don’t realise it’s racism until you start feeling very bad about it the next day. This is what happened to me:
I am a woman of mixed race (white/african) and have trouble with hot weather. It makes me nauseous and the sun drags all the energy out of my body. When it is hot for a long time, I even get sick properly because my stomach and bowels stop working. People often comment on how dark skinned people should be able to stand the heat, because of their skin colour. I know other dark-skinned people who are uncomfortable in high temperatures as well. In fact, I can’t really say that I talk to more white people with this problem than darker skinned folks.
When people make this comment to me, I always feel I have to justify the fact that I’m uncomfortable, or even justify why I don’t fit into the stereotypical image they have of a person of colour. It makes me feel alien. People prefer to (cross-) examine me about how this comes to be, rather than being supportive and say something like I’m sorry you feel this way.
Yesterday, my best friend of 27 years (white) compared my situation with the animal kingdom: arabian horses have wider veins and are able to sweat more than Icelandic horses, and that’s why an icelandic horse would not thrive in a hot environment. That’s why it is strange that I cannot stand the hot weather, since my skin is brown. I am flabbergasted. At the same time, I have no idea how to react to these comments.
I could argue that people have evolved differently from animals, and that animals are mucn more specialised to their environment by developing certain physical features. People have clothes, and have had so for a very long time already. This way, I have to explain to her why I am not (like) an anmimal, which is very degrading to me.
I’m also not sure if engaging in a discussion like this will solve anything. I would really like to let her know that I found her comment very offensive and that it has hurt me a lot, because it objectifies me.
I’m sure my friend did not mean to offend me, but worse harm has been done out of ignorance. It does not mean I should let it slip, especially since I feel so bad about it.

@P_Jay I think it is important for you to have that discussion with her. Well-meaning people often say very ignorant things and if she is a friend, she will want to rectify the situation. I’m sorry that she hurt you that way.

Agreed. And welcome to Fluther, @P_Jay.