Does anyone else think that the law can be an ass?

Yes I think the criminal often times is treated with more respect than those that do try to keep the law and exist in todays world.

In the first instance, the man deserved far more than four years three months (although his release won’t be automatic after than time) especially as it isn’t his first such offence. On the face of it, the sentence is derisory.

In the second case, what exactly is heavy handed about it? The little girls caused criminal damage to public property and their parents were warned about this by the police. There’s absolutely no suggestion that the police had any contact with the children whatsoever, let alone ‘heavy-handed’. If I were the parents, rather than bleat to the Daily Mail about the police’s attitude, I’d have a word with myself to not blithely sit by whilst my children kill flowers planted for all the public to enjoy.

Oh, boo hoo. For every example of “light” sentences for “criminals,” you can find plenty of examples of over-the-top sentencing and law enforcement brutality. Why else do you think prison populations are measured in millions in the USA?

Anyway, don’t worry about crime. “Crime” encompasses everything from the heroic and morally imperative to the sociopathic – including nearly anything inbetween. Worry about real problems. In almost all cases, you’re more likely to be hit by a motor vehicle than the victim of a crime.

@meiosis I do agree honey, like many I grew up knowing right from wrong and I learned this at home, by example. I didn’t pick flowers in the park because my Grandma would have told me that was stealing, for example. I probubly haven’t explained myself terribly well, apologies <blush>. What I meant was maybe that police officers sitting in a car watching very young children for 20 minutes instead of going over and talking to their parents straight away was a waste of resources. How many crimes were occurring, people being hurt, while they watched those children for 20 minutes?

@bolwerk In the UK, in order to reduce the deficit, Ken Clarke our esteemed Secretary of State for Justice, is deseperately looking for ways to reduce the amount spent by the Ministry of Justice. I get it, he needs to save money, just as the other Minsters in Central Government have to look to their budgets. What this means though is that, in the case of our Minster of Justice’s case, he’s looking at “softer” sentencing, leading to possibly violent criminals being set free to re-offend. There are also a lot of lawyers making a great deal of money using the Human Rights Act for many trivial cases for which it was not designed to be used. Basically, for the average UK Citizen life is getting less safe to live I think.

I should explain that I’m pretty liberal. I don’t tend to think that prison is always the answer and should only be reserved for the most violent or harmful crimes, not for wee Mrs bloggs who missed a payment on her council tax. The law seems to lack… well common sense at times.

I think it depends.

I have seen some egregiously low sentences for crimes that I considered heinous.

Other times criminals have the book thrown at them for what seem like minor infractions.

Victims’ rights seems like an empty catchphrase a lot of the time.

I think that your criticism is warranted – but in both cases the law was applied in the proper manner. In fact, the second example is one where the police used their discretion wisely letting the family off. The taxpayers are footing the bill for the flowers in the park. If the police didn’t intervene, the increased maintenance costs would be profound.

So I think @meiosis is right on this one.

“Basically, for the average UK Citizen life is getting less safe to live I think”

That’s just not true. Have a look at the British Crime Survey to see that the fear of crime is very much higher than the likelihood of being an actual victim.

@bunnygrl: I don’t think anyone should ever go to prison for failing to pay taxes. Heck, I’d happily give up all the police protection and stuff my taxes supposedly pay for in exchange for keeping the money! Still, I seriously doubt a few more violent criminals being released, particularly with the jeopardy of re-incarceration if they screw up, are a bigger threat to you than automobiles. 3,000 roads fatalities in the UK in 2007 vs. 700 to 900 homicides per year (with a 20-year low in 2009)? Really, keep things in perspective.

Also, the difference between a liberal and conservative is often that liberals lock people away for their own good, while conservatives lock people away to punish them.

@meiosis but the fear of crime is what keeps people indoors at night, and maybe also what prevents them from intervening when they see fellow citizens being mugged or attacked, how many headlines have you seen where the person trying to help has been hurt or killed in the attempt?

@bolwerk according to the BBC here the re-offending rates of both violent criminals and sex offenders has been seriously under reported by the Government (big shock there… not!!) and the pensioner jailed for not paying her council tax you can see here I have to admit, I feel an urge to give the lady in question a hug, since I agree with her in principal, some of our local councils charge the earth in council tax and don’t provide the services to match.

I digress…. I like to think my sense of prespective is pretty good. I don’t sit at home hiding behind my curtains, I don’t see violent criminals behind every tree or hedge, and I’m not scared to walk down the street on my own, but a young co-worker recently left work, walked to the bus stop and was approached by two lads, one of whom pulled a knife and demanded money. All he had was a couple of pounds in his pocket, they took that and ran off, but also knifed him in the face before they left. This guy is possibly one of the sweetest, kindest young guys you could hope to meet. If they’d just said to him they needed money (minus the menaces) he’d have given them his last and walked home. Genuinely, he is that kind of young lad. Instead he has a scarred face for his troubles. Just because the powers that be say the world is safer around us, doesn’t mean that it is, and really nice, really kind young lads get hurt waiting for the bus home.

I asked this question, not because I’m some kind of timid little doormouse afraid of the big bad world, but in the hope that it would stimulate some interesting discussions, which it has, but also because I promised a few days ago to try to ask more questions. Having asked (at the time) only 3 in over a year and a half here :-) I have to admit though, seeing that story in the Mail about the sentence passed on that sick thug raping the girl in Devon, well that made me feel ill. Just out of jail for a similar offence, where he literally dragged a girl off who was with her sister at the time, and raped her while the sister tried to fight him off? he should be locked away for the safety of women surely? Instead, he’ll be released to do it again. I’ll say again, that sometimes, the law can be an ass.
hugs honeys, and thank you all for your replies <huggles> xx

@bunnygrl: Even if re-offending were 100%, you’d still have more to worry about from automobiles. I agree that the law is out of whack a lot, but it’s out of whack in terms of fairness more than safety. Unfortunately neoconservative obsessions with wasting money on professional police has probably discouraged people from self-policing – both because responsibility is diffused and there is actually a matter of getting in trouble if you cross the professionals.

Although, amusingly, I have to say one week in London exposed me to more potential pickpocketings and weakly thought out street scams than I had to contend with in 10 years in (statistically more dangerous) New York. I don’t know if it’s so much that I came across as an outsider or what. Luckily I’m fairly street smart, and not somebody most people want to have a physical altercation with.

@bolwerk really? I have to admit that I loved the twice I’ve visited London (haven’t ever made it to NY yet but maybe someday) I remember the girl at reception in the hotel I was staying at warned me about the possibility of pick pockets and handbag grabbers. To be on my guard she said. I’d just assumed that this was just something that, unfortunately, happened in big cities. We seem to be having quite a spate of pick pocketing (and shop lifting too) from the store where I work. Whenever serving my elderly ladies or gentlemen, I try to make sure they’ve put their money away and (in the case of my elderly ladies) zipped/closed their handbags, before they leave me.

Oooo before I forget, I meant to say earlier that I meant my views are usually quite liberal, not that I’m liberal in the political sense. I can honestly say I’ve never voted lib dem in any of their incarnations lol, and from the looks of their recent defeat in Barnsley, the support they had at the last general election seems to be drifting too. Any party who gets into bed with the tories, it would seem, becomes tory by default.
hugs xx

@bunnygrl: Yeah, but I didn’t make much of it. I think if you’re in a big city, you just trade one set of safety concerns for others in many cases. Crime is probably going to be higher because of higher opportunity to commit crime, but that doesn’t mean safety is inherently lower – and that could vary place to place. Again, perhaps I just stick out sore thumb in London, creating the perception I’m an easy victim to be suckered. At least with the pickpocketing, I was pretty good at catching the two or three attempts I dealt with – and I found London far better than continental Europe in that regard anyway. Some crazy west African dude in Westminster going on a nutty screaming fit because I wouldn’t give him a pound was a bit odder for me (our panhandlers are content with a quarter). I can usually tell by looking at someone around here whether or not they’re local or not. And by local, I mean they at least fit in and have been around for a while. It’s something people who pay attention to the streets get pretty adept at, and good street swindlers are probably very gifted at it.

This is kind of an uneducated explanation, but I think crime/antisocial behavior in New York tends to be more compartmentalized, for one. You’re not likely to encounter it without being in the right place or doing the right things, like looking for drugs. Looking for drugs is like wearing a sign saying you have money and aren’t looking for attention from the police – not an enviable position when dealing with the criminal element. In London, that kind of thing might be more diffused across traditional urban spaces even if statistically less common.

Another possible difference is in immigration. New York’s immigrants tend to be pretty well integrated in New York society (at least not worse than anyone else). London’s perhaps are more on the margins of society. The New York criminal element, being more compartmentalized as I said above, probably is homegrown in housing projects and the last rougher neighborhoods. London’s might be more imported. (But again, I’m speculating.)

@bolwerk No I think you’re right honey. Our PM has been going on lately about how immigrants do not integrate, and how this is causing problems, not that all immigrants are criminals obviously, but I can see what you mean by not looking local . I suppose people tend to be wary of anything strange or new. Part of the problem is the sheer volume of immigration we had under Brown’s government. It was, and is, unsustainable, and is placing such a huge strain on everything from housing, to our health service, to things like benefits and services. With the best will in the world, it has been very damaging, and people resent it, and through no fault of their own, and quite unfairly I think, the new arrivals too.

Because of this, seperate societies form, and never the twain shall meet. As I said, Brown threw the borders completely open, when other European countries had measures in place to limit numbers, and so new arrivals had no time to settle before so many followed behind them. I have no idea what the solution is. When I was growing up everyone knew their neighbours, and no one thought twice about helping when something bad happened, now it feels like everyone keeps themselves to themselves and its so easy to become isolated and alone. Like I said, I have no idea what the solution is. Cameron is waffling about some idea for “a big society” which in itself sounds wonderful, but I suspect (as do most of the other political parties it would seem) that it is just waffle hiding massive cuts, ie: big society = charities and volunteers take over doing the jobs that our taxes are supposed to pay for but we still keep paying the taxes anyway. I wish there was some kind of magic wand that would make everything work out, but it seems like there are problems everywhere. The world is in a bit of a mess. Where is superman when you need him :-)
huggles xx

The $ecret

Our principle, “Equal Justice Under Law”,
grants us equal treatment under our Laws.

The Elite, and The State, may purchase or
call up any order of magnitude, in superior
legal representation and technical resources.

Purchased advantage, aptly damns the equity.

Is anything at all being done, to move our Justice System
away from a system dependent on stupid slave labor,
and towards an interested intelligent all-volunteer jury service?

Yes it is, this question is now being asked openly.

Present systems perpetuate themselves, at taxpayer expense,
by obstructing effective efforts to rehabilitate inmates.
We will continue reap a full harvest of crime,
until we learn to successfully rehabilitate inmates.

@MajorDisappointment how is true rehabilitation possible though when, once classed as an ex convict people find it so much harder to be accepted into society, to find jobs etc. Yes, if someone is a danger to other people they should not be allowed their freedom to continually hurt others, but what of people who make mistakes in life, fall in with the wrong company, suffer guilt by association, grow up in the wrong neighberhood so that the local police just assume this person is a trouble maker? These people surely deserve a second chance. Welcome to fluther honey and thank you for replying.
hugs xx

The big brute should’ve been hit with a car and then the person say, hey, he asked me to do that.
And the little girls got off easy. Parents should teach children not to ruin or take anything that is not theirs. I don’t care how bored they were. I would take my kids to parks with flowers and I would tell them to leave the flowers exactly where they were for all to enjoy.
Parents should’ve been fined. If your child went and decided to draw on a public building they would get fined. No matter how artistic your kid is, its still destruction of public property.
Taxes has to be paid to clean up the mess and those flowers were planted and paid for by taxes. Maintance cost go up everytime they have to send someone to replace or fix the flower beds.

@Pandora thank you honey, I agree. As I said earlier, I was taught right from wrong at a very early age, as you say, at home. If something was not mine, I knew better than to touch whatever it was. I was just looking to start a little discussion is all.

I still can’t believe that poor girl was raped on a busy city street while traffic just drove on by leaving her to her fate. Nobody even used their cell phone to get her help. Why didn’t anyone stop the car and use their tyre iron on his head? Poor girl, she’ll probably never recover and he gets (another) short sentence. Life isn’t fair.
hugs xx

@bunnygrl “Life isn’t fair” I agree it isn’t. I wish I could say the actions of the observers was suprising but I find little in life that surprises me any more. I don’t thing the world is any better or any worse. The only difference is that with so many options people still refuse to involve themselves in caring for others. Even when they can do it without actually having to be involved in a physical nature. The only difference now is that the internet has made things more publicly know, where as in the past word of mouth was the only way to get info. The crimes still existed, and people still got away with things. They were just done more privately. Maids and slaves where whipped and beaten and raped by their masters, governments tortured their people and imprisioned them and hung them for slight offenses to high ranking people. And it all still continues today. We are still no more civilized than we were hundreds of years ago. The only differences today is that evil things are easier now with computers and our jails are fuller but its a joke about the revolving door policy and that lawyers are willing to get the devil himself out of jail if it means a few bucks for them and to hell with the rest of the world.

@Pandora well said honey, GA and you’re right, nothing is different, just more public. What gets me is that no matter how much we are supposed to have evolved and improved as a species, still different countries fight over oil, over resources, over money, over borders.

The riches of the world are greedily kept by the few who seem content to allow babies to starve, and people drive past a young girl in the street while a monster attacks her. Nothing has changed, governments argue instead of deciding to make the best ever decision and get rid of themselves, so that we can think of ourselves as a world with problems, instead of each country only thinking of itself, a generalisation I know, and yes in times of disaster people can be so generous in fundraising etc, but how sad that it takes a disaster to provoke this behaviour. If the problems of the world were faced as a united people, forget nationalities, as the human race instead, maybe we could distribute food and resources more fairly, look after everyone when they need help, and people who hurt others like that monster above, well maybe people like him could be stuck on an island where they couldn’t hurt others any more. Instead of being repeatedly freed to repeat the same behaviour patterns over and over, ruining more lives.
hugs honey xx

thanks. :)

Sweet holy moly, I guess the only reason for the virgin part was that it was a English news paper, here in Yankee Town no gives a rats a** about virginity.

However, I do not know how the laws over there work, here he would surely have been locked away for some time. Seeing his history, I think the prison system failed or needed a better vehicle to evaluate, and determine his risk to society. I do believe some rapist did the crime off a really poor mistake, and that they have learned their lesson and will go about their live with out further hitches. I don’t know the full arrest history of this man but I think he should have seen a couple of shrinks to maybe see if it was the way he was wired.

I think with the kids the bobbies got misinformation. I am sure even cops should know the different between a dozen random flowers being pick, and 70 being ”ripped out”. Once they observed with their eyes they should have known the actual events were not matching the reports. Even though they might have had the right to ticket the parents for their girl’s picking the flowers. The parents are a way de facto owners of the flowers in part, they pay taxes that planted the flowers, but still you cannot have everyone picking flowers or there will be none.