Why do people automatically jump to race? (see details)

So what you’re asking is why do non-black people automatically jump to race, right? Because I know for a fact I’ve heard black adults do the same about black teenagers (whose race they too make a point of mentioning, in a derogatory manner without seeing how it is, in a way, counter-intuitive). So, why do non-black people automatically jump to race in the example you give? Because race, to them, is more salient of a difference than age and most people aren’t properly taught to check their racism and biases.

Well, in your example, its probably true that people can tell one’s race than one’s age. In life, they more often notice people’s race and draw connections to someone’s race.

Or, the unpopular answer, it maybe true that in a particular person’s life, their is a correlation between race and loudness.

Schema theory(psychology) probably plays a big role.

@roundsquare It’s not an unpopular answer, it’s just a wrong (non-factual) answer. People’s perceptions get colored (put intended) by negative feelings towards other races. I know white people who think asians are louds, Asians who think white teens are loud, whites who think Black people are loud, etc. Can we all really be loud to others? No.

@Facade, that pisses me off too. I’m usually the first to call it out. (Although it was my black niece in law who explained CP time to me. I thought that was pretty racist until I saw the video of her wedding, and the grooms side was all seated on time and the brides side was all a half hour late. She was so mad!)

@Simone_De_Beauvoir That’s the only example I could come up with. Of course this question is about anyone, of any race who does this.
@Judi CP time is real!! I’m always late. Always…
@incendiary_dan Your link didn’t really explain schema theory. Can you sum it up?

@Facade Well, what can I tell you? Race matters to some people and it’s too bad.

But how and why? It makes no logical sense that the color of someone’s skin causes them to act a certain way.

Because Racism, contrary to popular belief, is still alive and well.

@Facade I don’t think anyone thinks that “black skin causes loudness” or whatever. There are more sensible (though potentially false as @Simone_De_Beauvoir points out) ways to connect skin color to some personality trait:
1) Culture
2) Genetics (the “loud gene” tends to be stronger in black people)

@roundsquare As to the genetics reason, link?

@ragingloli Yes, it is. But why?
@roundsquare The culture thing makes sense, so why not dislike certain cultures? Not that that would be any better, but still. I don’t see how someone is genetically made up to be loud or rude or stupid or w/e (unless that was a joke).

@Facade The basic idea is that we learn and think based on existing cognitive structures that are used as mental shortcuts. They’re kind of like scaffolding for the brain. People often end up incorporating racist notions into their schema because it’s cognitively easier to use generalizations. Ends up taking more effort to disregard that because the mental framework isn’t set up to think of certain people as people.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I’m not sure I can find a link. That one comes from a documentary I saw in high school where a bunch of neo-nazis were being interviewed. In the end, I think they were just “updating” their racism. Like with many other things, it doesn’t need to be true for people to believe it.

@Facade Well, I’ve heard enough people use phrases like “black culture” that there is probably little practical difference between disliking the race and disliking the culture as long as one is willing to recognize exceptions to the rule.

But how can someone be genetically made up to be loud? It depends on how much of personality one attributes to genetics, but some people have genetic predispositions to being violent, aggressive, etc… so why not loud? Even so, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the genetic disposition for being loud tends to go with being black, but that would be the argument.

@incendiary_dan Makes perfect sense. GA!

@roundsquare How is someone genetically made up to be violent or aggressive?

P.S. If you ever start hanging around with neopagans, you’ll find there’s something called PST- Pagan Standard Time. Turns out, it’s at least an hour later than normal time.

@Facade Racism is still alive because it’s only 2011. Many of us are under the impression that since all of these atrocities were in the past, we should have completely forgotten about them and moved on as some superior, enlightened species. Our time on earth is only the smallest fraction on the scale of the universe. Even 100 years isn’t a long time. We’re definitely not enlightened or much smarter as a whole. We just think we are. Look at how long it even took humans to realize we should start treating each other with respect…...

I am sure my answer will get slammed, but here goes.

If the group was black adults, would it change whether you are so bothered by grouping them as black people? My guess is it would. It’s just you chose an example where probaby them being teens is more of a driver of their loudness than their race, but if they are all adults, then race might stand out more. This stereotype is said about black people and Hispanics actually. It is not that every table with black or Hispanics are loud, it is that if there is a loud annoying table, there is a good chance it is black or Hispanic. That doesn’t mean white people or Asians are not sometimes loud. I am just talking about my general experience. Also teens in a big group, any race, more likely to be loud probably, but not that they will be loud necessarily, if I am being seated at a restaurant and see a table of 12 black people I never think, ugh, don’t sit me near them, they are going to be loud but yet admittedly I have these generalizations in my head that I mentioned above. In my circles it is said more about Hispanics than African Americans.

I think it is because there is more likely to be large tables of teens, blacks, or Hispanics than whites in places I have lived. The more people in a group generally the louder they get. So it is not really their race, but rather the number of people at one table. The bigger the group, typically the more chance people might become louder and more animated.

@Blackberry On top of that, think of what the Western social construct of race was created for and what purpose it served: largely to justify Western social hegemony in the form of imperialism and capitalism-driven slavery. The root problems still exist in slightly shifted forms, so it’s no surprise that the fundamental core of Western racism is still strong. We’re still living in the same hierarchal society, and it still benefits those in charge to have hierarchies based on race, sex, and various other factors.

@incendiary_dan Indeed.

@Blackberry But not everyone is a racist, so it must be possible to be “enlightened,” you know?

@Facade I like to think of it like a bad barrel situation. People in the society tend to be racist to some degree because of the society as a whole is racist, but individuals always have a chance to overcome it.

@JLeslie “If the group was black adults, would it change whether you are so bothered by grouping them as black people? My guess is it would.” No, it wouldn’t. The age of a person doesn’t matter. That was just an example. Although you’ve experienced loud Black and Hispanic people, you have to know that loudness Can we use another example please? anyone? is not just a Black or Hispanic trait. I’d say the only Black and hispanic trait is to be Black or Hispanic…
@incendiary_dan Exactly.

@Facade Oh, my apologies, I got caught up in the particular example. My answer then is, there are certain stereotypes people have with every group or culture. When a person from that group displays that stereotypical behavior, the race or ethnicity, or gender is many times mentioned.

In DC people used to say Asians don’t drive well, so when an Asian guy did a screwed up manuever on the road, it was another reinforcement Asians don’t drive well to that person observing it, even though white people might do the same thing over and over, he is only keenly aware when it fits into a stereotype of his. Probably people are more inclined to do this with groups they do not identify with, instead of their own group? Kind of like when you are considering buying a new car, and you start to see Nissan Maximas everywhere, because that is the car you are considering.

My husband notices when people from MS drive badly, any race, and black women on the telephone (black women on the phone while driving is a big one in these parts that I guess he heard from friends of his) he hates when it is true, when the person who sucks at driving winds up fitting the stereotype. He does not think every black woman sucks at driving though, and he never thought it until we moved to this particular city. He complains about white women on the phone driving badly also for that matter, but I guess he does notice if they are black or not. But, he does it about his own group too about certain things. It isn’t done with any malice really.

What if something is statistically true? Then are we supposed to not notice?

I think everyone is loud, lol!

@JLeslie Define “statistically true.” You can notice whatever you’d like, but I refuse to believe that grouping by skin color is ok. Why not complain about people who drive while on the phone? Why White people, Black people, or women?

@Facade Oh yes of course. I just mean as a general rule, according to our short time scale, all of these things might as well have happened yesterday lol. I like to use my onion metaphor (or is it an analogy? Lol). The more layers we peel away on an onion, the fresher it gets. We have to wait for more modern ideas come through and pretty much wait for it to slowly die off lol.

@Blackberry You’re right. I just wish people would progress more quickly.

@Facade I agree with you. People can group things however they want, it doesn’t have to be by race. It’s like high school drop out rates. Many times quotes statistically by race, but could easily be looked at by socio-economics. Why pick race as the grouping is your point I think? Well, it seems even the minorities themselves group themselves a lot of the time, that is how they identify. I prefer it not be done by race also. But, with that example of high scool drop outs, who does the black community want to come and help them with ideas on fixing the problem? A white guy or a black guy? I’m sincerely asking, I don’t want to assume. It seems to me some black people feel the white guy might not understand the community, I had a black man once say to me that white people want to take away “black culture” when we were discussing education.

I think so much of this has to do with where someone lives. A woman I know lived in Norfolk before moving here, and she thinks the education situation in the Memphis and the metro area regarding race is outrageous. She said it was a complete nonissue in VA in her children’s schools. She is white. She hates it is so divided here.

“There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics” – Mark Twain

“Why pick race as the grouping is your point I think? Well, it seems even the minorities themselves group themselves a lot of the time, that is how they identify.” That certainly does not make it right.
Regarding your comments about a White guy coming in to fix the community, I don’t see how anyone can be sure of that as different people may have certain preferences. Why would a white person not be able to “fix” problems within a Black community (whatever that is) because of his skin color? I’m not denying that some people would confirm your assumptions, but they would just be acting ignorantly.

@Facade I agree.

I have an anecdote that pertains to this question.

A few months ago, I was waiting for a friend of mine outside of a restaurant. A short ways away, there was a bus stop filled with black and hispanic teenagers. There were probably thirty kids all together. One of them, a young black man, detached himself from the group and approached me. He asked me if I was waiting for the bus and I told him I was waiting for my friend who was running late. He nodded and went into the restaurant to buy a bottle of water. After he walked away, I realized that he was asking me this at least, I suspect this was why because he probably thought I was a white woman who was afraid of the non-white teenagers which is why I was standing apart from the group. I thought it was interesting how he expected me to be waiting for the bus even though there were multiple other indications that I was not waiting for the bus.

Honestly, I have no idea why people automatically jump to race. I can definitely say that sometimes culture is an important distinction to make, but not all black people are from the same culture, just as all Asians, Hispanics and whites are not from the same cultures. It is just a more insidious form of racism.

@KatawaGrey That’s a good point. People shouldn’t assume that all people of one skin color are from the same culture. GA.

Culture is so much more defining than skin color. Skin color is just an accident of birth, nothing else.

The example @KatawaGrey gives made me think of this: I was in NY recently and on the block where my aunt lives there is a school. A few times I happen to be walking when they were leaving school, and it is a little overwhelming all of those teens everywhere, I stood out as not being one of them for sure. They were “loud” usually. They happen to be very mixed in terms of race and ethnicity, but what stood out to me was just so many people from a group I am not a part of anymore, knowing they see me as an old lady, LOL.

Some of it is atitude, and I would say also how people dress and carry themselves. There is a famous black chef in Las Vegas who has written a book about how he went from prison to being a master chef. He talks about when he left prison he purposely let his muscles come down a little, change his stride/walk, and did his best to look as the business world expected. That really isn’t about race. The other black men he hung out with might have influenced why he talked and looked as he did, but there are plenty of white guys who are scary in the same way, it really is not race in my opinion. But, again, I know all too many people in Memphis who feel conforming is selling out to “white” expectations, I never heard anything like that among my black friends in MD, NY, or FL.

Just look at the last few comments on this question

@JLeslie Right, it isn’t about race. GA

@incendiary_dan We have QST – queer standard time, at least an hour late

I just want to say that I LOVE this conversation. Thanks @Facade for asking it, and for responding. The biggest problem with racism in this country is that we don’t talk about it. As a white person who probably feels to much “white guilt” I am often afraid to talk about it and ask questions for fear my ignorance will come across as racist. It’s easier to keep quiet and try my hardest to just be color blind. Conversations like this can change the world. Especially since everyone here seems to genuinely want to gain understanding instead of promote an agenda.

I have a friend who was adopted from Korea. As an adult she moved to neighborhood woth a high Korean population. Since she spent most of her life in a white culture, she said she felt out of place, like everyone was looking at her.

@Judi Out of place growing up in the white neighborhood? I find that interesting, because although I am for cross race and cross cultural adoption, I think it can be less than ideal if the community is 99% one race, not the childs race.

@JLeslie; I don’t know If I was clear. She “felt” so white that she had that feeling of standing out, event hough she looked like all the people she was surrounded by. She never felt “different” growing up.

@Judi So she was uncomfortable among other Korens. Interesting. I think part of the reason I didn’t have a lot of Jewosh friends growing up was because I sometimes felt badly around Jewish people becuase I was not Jewish enough.

How is hating them for being teenagers any better than hating them for being black?

@MyNewtBoobs Hate seems a strong word for this discussion. There is no difference to me to answer your question. Making assumptions about any group is a stereotype nontheless.

@MyNewtBoobs I wasn’t suggesting hate, and in my opinion, disliking teenagers is better than being a racist.
@JLeslie Until I graduated high school, I never felt Black enough. I can’t dance; I don’t like mainstream rap, hip-hop, and r&b (for the most part); I know who my father is, and he’s been married to my mother for 30 years; I could go on. I now all of these are stereotypes, but where I grew up, that’s what being Black is. Now, I’m proud not to be the stereotypical Black woman I bet y’all wouldn’t guess that I was Black if I didn’t put my photo in my avatar =)

@Facade ; Except for CP time ~

@Judi JSYK, my very Black SO is always early or at least on time, but he can dance, so I guess it’s ok.

@Facade Ok, dislike (I guess skimming answers does have it’s downsides.) But history aside, either way you’re saying that what’s to blame is that they belong to a group without having any say in the matter. Teenagers can’t help being adolescents anymore than black people can help having dark skin. Either way, it’s gross generalizing.

@MyNewtBoobs Good point. However, I do think some people are more likely to dislike teenagers (which they shouldn’t) especially if they’re also black, let’s say.

@MyNewtBoobs Yes, it is gross generalization, but racism is much more deadly than not liking teenagers.

@MyNewtBoobs: I think there is a very big difference because that which makes teenagers so repellent in some cases is quantifiable. Puberty is not kind to the human body and teenagers react to the nastiness of puberty. However, there is no hormone as far as I know present only in black people that makes them particularly loud or obnoxious nor do black people go through physical changes that non-black people do not. Also, people stop being teenagers at some point whereas with the exception of a certain dead pop star you cannot stop being black. It is reasonable to judge a group based on what is going in their bodies and how they react to it, but it is not reasonable to judge a group based solely on a physical characteristic that does not affect anything they do.

@Facade Inherently, or historically? Because historically, ok, sure. But inherently? I’m not seeing it. That just seems like shifting the stereotypes and generalizations to a different area than actually trying to make people more tolerant. It’s like saying you shouldn’t hate someone because they’re black, but because they’re a woman.

@KatawaGrey I can see that, and to an extent, I agree. The problem is that a) you assume it’s because they’re teens that they’re acting that way, and not because they’re on sugar/drugs/Rx drugs, or because they’re acting as their equally annoying parents do, or any of the other reasons they could be acting that way. Plus, I know tons and tons of adults who act the same way, but we look at it through a different lens. So I think their age/biological development does play a part, but it’s not the whole part, and it’s probably much more often a case of confirmation bias. And then you can make the case that while skin color doesn’t play a role in people’s physiology, ethnicity/culture/upbringing does.

Case in point: the recent McDonalds beating of a transgendered woman. So many comments I saw online were racist comments against black people. Because the perpetrators were black, that means that it was all black people’s fault and it’s time turn on the racial generalizations based on this incident. Whereas if the perpetrators had been white, there’d be no comments about race at all…

It’s the same thing if a woman gets dumped by a man she now “hates all men” or when my friend got her phone stolen by a Mexican kid at my school she said “fucking border-hopping Mexicans always stealing shit”. We turn to generalizations when we’re upset. It seems to be human nature in some way. :\

My guess is that’s easier to explain why someone did something bad by chocking it up to their race or something other unchangeable surface trait rather than actually looking at the problem itself. I know I’ve made statements against all straight people after encountering so many homophobic ones. It’s a stupid thing to do when you really think about it…

@DominicX – Right? And not a fortnight earlier, a young black gay man got jumped in Detroit at a gas station by two other black men, and no one said a word. But everyone notices more when it’s people of two different races at odds.

I think it’s confirmation bias at work. People who make such statements as you give as an example here, @Facade, already think derogatorily about the group they’re noticing, and are looking, unconsciously, to have their biases confirmed.

I think (my opinion only), that we are hardwired in our ancient brain to quickly discern if people are “of my tribe or group” or “not of my tribe or group.” Some aspects of being human are often obvious (race/gender) but not always and some are less obvious (sexual orientation). I think we inherently needed to assess who was like us and who was different in a way that could (at the time) save our lives or the lives of our tribe or group. As a result, difference was perceived as suspect or even dangerous.

I think racism is inherent and we are only now learning how to address elements of racism that are insidious. Many people are not self reflective and many do not engage in self examination. I think self examination is necessary to review how one thinks about race, culture etc. in a modern world where “my tribe or group” may or may not be relevant to ones’ sense of safety. We can own our knee jerk reactions to others, but it is necessary to examine our lives and to look at our reactions to other people who may differ from us.

All that being said, I am aware of my own biases and become aware of new ones every day. I own that I am inherently racist and am actively working to overcome my own racism because I value diversity on many levels. I think it is my job to explore my own racism and it is not up to my friends of color to help me do so (but they are also very helpful in assisting me in identifying my knee jerk reactions to things).

When I was in high school, I lived in Japan. I have blue eyes and I was as tall or taller than many Japanese men. I stuck out like a sore thumb in an environment where there is some homogeneity in appearance and a distinctively national culture. I was very different than most of the people I met, but I learned a great deal about Japanese culture and learned the language (speaking not writing). I think I actually experienced greater culture shock when I returned to the states. The first thing I noticed was the obesity of many Americans. I was also very surprised by the reaction of many people in my own family (who lived through WWII) to our having moved to Japan in the first place.

My high school included kids from 46 different nationalities. This was in a school where the senior class was typically 30 students. We actively learned about our own racism (and other “isms” and had tremendous opportunities to explore our biases of our personal and cultural histories.

Like many others here, I sincerely appreciate this question and many of the answers and thoughts that have been shared here.

@Kayak8 Perhaps noticing difference is inherent but racism isn’t or have you never seen toddlers of different race meet and play together? No racism. It’s learned.

@Kayak8 Race is an ever changing cultural construct. Essentially, it is fiction. Maybe noticing differences in skin tone is natural, but ascribing that to the concept of race is cultural.

@aprilsimnel Confirmation Bias! I could not think of the term. GA.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir and @incendiary_dan I completely agree! Poor word choices on my part . . .

I like to pride myself on taking people one at a time regardless of what color or age they are. But I do think a group of teens is going to be louder and more rowdy than the average group of adults (unless there is alcohol involved, then the drunker people become the deafer they become and the louder they become). I don’t want to sit beside them in a restaurant or anywhere else for that matter. I personally would be more inclined to comment on the noise level and age or the sobriety of the group rather than race or color. I would also comment on the sex of them, I feel distinctly uncomfortable being close to a group of young males, again I don’t care what color. I have been knocked over, ridden into or accidentally physically accosted because they tend to act like idiots and do not have much consideration for anyone else.

I wish the term ‘race’ could be erased from our vocabulary. There is no such thing as a ‘race’. We all are homo-sapiens. Really….so what if we look different than others? Until we are willing to look at each person as an individual and attempt to understand their needs and desires, we can get stuck in making assumptions for a variety of reasons.

On the flip side, it is annoying when people use a generalization applied to their nationality or culture as an excuse for their actions. It only perpetuates the fallacy.

@Pied_Pfeffer How is it a fallacy that people are predisposed to act in a certain way based on their culture? In fact, that’s the very explanation as to why people often associate race with certain behaviours.

@chocolatechip Thank you for asking, as I now see that my point wasn’t clear. I meant when it is used as an excuse for their negative or unacceptable behavior. For example, a co-worker that essentially expected us to dismiss her bursts of temper-tantrums because she had an Italian background. There was the next-door neighbor who was white and felt that it was perfectly acceptable to hang a Confederate flag on his porch while having a housekeeper who was black. ‘The South lives on!’ was his reasoning.

@Pied_Pfeffer I think there is a fine line between being ethnocentric, and having reasonable expectations of people from different cultures. There are real cultural differences between people. I agree no one gets to be screaming at work, but if you were in a marriage with an Italian and you told me he raises his voice a lot, I would probably be less empathetic. I don’t like it used as an excuse either, but it can be an explanation that is very valid.

A lot of people on fluther want to get rid of using the word race. I think race is a short cut in some instances that is more efficient and reaches people who might be ignorant to other classifications. Like with medicine, black people are more likely to develop certain diseases. We could say people from African descent I guess? But if referring to someone by their race carries no hatred, it doesn’t even matter that we use race does it? It is just another identifyer. If someone calls me white, I usually don’t care, because I am. When a black person in Memphis calls me white when talking politics, or worse a black politician “white” who is right wing, religious, and hateful, then I don’t like that there is an assumption all white people are right wingers, especially when it is assumed about me.

The main reason is so-called out-group homogeneity bias or out-group homogeneity effect according to social identity theory – which is the perception of out-group members as more similar to one another than are in-group members. Thus “they are alike; we are diverse”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity_bias

“Identification with in-groups promotes self-esteem; by comparing ourselves with out-groups, we gain a favorable bias toward our in-group, known as in-group bias.”

It seems to be a worldwide phenomenon. Here’s a common European example related to tourists:

1) Oh, these Spanish tourists they talk so much and they are so loud.
2) Oh, these German tourists always taking plenty of towels, putting them on decks chairs by the pool – in the past they invaded our country, today they are invading everybody’s deck chairs
3) Oh, these American tourists, they are so fat and dress badly and can’t speak real English
4) Oh, these English tourists taking sunbaths all day with their deep red skin badly burnt, drinking beer all day to numb the pain
5) Oh, these Italian machos, always horny and chasing after innocent blond girls (who are actually not so innocent after all…)

They are alike. We are diverse. Or so we think.

All we can do is keep debunking these stereotypical generalizations.

And speak out when we encounter racist or xenophobic comments.