Can we see a picture of Osama right before he died?

Stop! .... Smile….. OK, now I can shoot you.

The SEAL team that nailed Osama was probably equipped with helmet cameras that recorded the entire event. These videos may be released someday under the Freedom of Information Act, but it’s highly unlikely.

No.

Kodak moments are specifically prohibited in covert operations.

It might be more fun to look for artist’s interpretations.

Obama said he’s not going to release the photo because we aren’t like these guys.

That’s right @Nullo. They can’t show us a photo of something that never happened. We’ll be forced to accept the artists interpretations.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies, so what do you think happened? Bin Laden is still alive (and will presumably be releasing a video to that effect shortly?) Or bin Laden has been dead and this is so Obama can win the election in… 15 months?

Oh I have no idea what actually happened. I simply don’t put a bit of trust in the entire scenario.

Perhaps the truth is of biblical proportions, worthy of any number of dark tales from the book of Revelation. Perhaps it’s a bit simpler than that. I don’t know.

Of course we landed on the moon. Where did all those cool rocks come from?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies, there’s a difference between being skeptical and just knee-jerk doubting everything the government says because you want to seem edgy and anti-authority.

If “they” are lying about this (I guess “they” would include the Pakistanis in Abotabad including the guy who live-tweeted the helicopter assault?) then you are suggesting something as unbelievable as a moon landing conspiracy.

It’s understandable; it almost seems too easy, after all this time hunting him. The tendency that some have to use body doubles comes to mind.

Though prior to the news I had sorta buried him in my mind.

Too easy to fly 200 miles into a sovereign country we’re not at war with, raid a fortified compound half a mile from their West Point, with a crippled helicopter, in the middle of the night, then fly a corpse back without getting noticed?

Um.

What exactly would you have found not fishy, Nullo?

Let it go.
To desire to gloat over anyones death is perverted and of an un-evolved mindset.
The man was someones baby at one point, he is a sad byproduct of his culture and belief system. His death is every bit as much a tragedy as the cruelty he promoted.

I don’t think his death is anywhere near the tragedy of the cruelty he promoted. For one thing it’s about four orders of magnitude smaller than the number of people his organization deliberately targeted for murder. For another thing those people were innocent civilians.

Bin Laden long ago removed himself from the human circle of empathy. I’m not pro-death penalty, but when it comes to people who have actually murdered hundreds or thousands of people, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with taking comfort in the fact that they have left this earth. Though I take much more comfort in knowing that his sick cult is withering away.

@Qingu

It was his conditioning that led him down his dark path. He was not BORN evil.
Just sad, for all involved. End of story.

[mod says] Please stick to answering the actual question, please. There are many other threads to discuss conspiracy theories and such.

He may not have been born evil but his level of evil would make most evildoers blush. To be part of a plot that was so diabolical in nature that it required an extra special sick mind to even think of it, is off the charts evil to the point that, yeah, I would say there had to have been some evil inside he was born with. It took some ideas to get that underlying evil to bubble to the surface. A picture of him dead or right before although disturbing is a comfort to many. People want to see that he died a gruesome death, not have it sanitized. Just as important, let those who would be supporting him see what happens to sick demented mass murderers. Hiding away those pics is a larceny to justice.

No. Apparently the cameras weren’t functional for 25 minutes during the mission according to a news article I read earlier (sorry too lazy to find the link).

@Qingu In fact, I am of the opinion that they got the real him. If you had asked me on April 31, I would have guessed that he was dead of kidney failure or something years ago. But I could see how other people might not think so.
* * *
Apparently there is footage, but the C-in-C has decided that releasing it would make for bad PR.

If you’re interested, a website published photos of the event after it happened. It doesn’t show Osama as a dead man, but it shows other people who were killed and the compound that they were killed in. They were taken by the Pakistani government after the Navy SEALS were gone.

Here they are.

Now if you are squeemish, don’t bother looking at them. There are a couple photos that have close up pictures of dead men in a pool of blood.

@Kate the Great; it’s Ginny but my iPhone will show me the article but it blacks out the picture. Apple censorship?

They’re on the CNN website, too. :(

Death in absentia (or presumption of death) is a legal declaration that a person is deceased in the absence of remains (e.g., a corpse or skeleton) attributable to that person. Such a declaration is typically made when a person has been missing for an extended period of time without any evidence that the person is still alive, or when the circumstances surrounding a person’s disappearance overwhelmingly support the belief that the person has died (e.g., an airplane crash).

Bin Ladin’s death is no more assured now than it was the day before the raid. There is no evidence that he is alive or dead.

Please don’t accuse me of “knee-jerk” conspiracy theory. Facts are facts. I haven’t suggested any reason for conspiracy whatsoever, and I do not claim to know what really happened.

I can’t just walk into a police station and claim that my mother is dead with no evidence to support it. At most, the courts would proclaim death in absentia, and that’s all. That’s how it is for Hoffa and many others. That’s all we have to claim for Bin Ladin as well.

So of all the hundreds of thousands of people who have been declared dead recently by the US government, you, @RealEyesRealizeRealLies, will refuse to believe any of them are actually dead unless you have personally seen a picture of their corpse.

What advantage would the White House or CIA have to fake Osamas death? they want him more dead then we do, the guy was a menace and if they faked the whole thing Osama would pop up again doing something else destructive.

@Judi I’m sorry it did that. On a regular computer, it is working fine. I’m not sure what’s going on with you iPhone!

It wouldn’t be too much asking for a sample of the collected DNA to be made public for independent verification @Qingu. But we got nothing except stories. By those standards, anything could be promoted as truth.

I’m unaware of the “hundreds of thousands of people… declared dead recently by the US”. Have I missed something? Did any of the so called eye witnesses make any immediate claims like, “He was armed and fired at agents” only to change it to “He was unarmed”? “We killed his wife”, ooops “No we didn’t kill his wife”. “A woman was killed being used as a shield”, uh no sorry “No woman was killed or used as shield”. “Yes WE WILL show photos”, uh, “Sorry just kidding, we don’t want to upset Muslims”.

If we didn’t want to upset Muslims, then we should get the frack out of the middle east altogether. What a crock.

Photos and DNA information were given to your representatives in government, @RealEyesRealizeRealLies. I don’t understand why you feel that you personally need to see this information “or else.”

They never claimed bin Laden was armed. The earliest report by the White House says “I don’t know if he got any shots off.” The revised story indicates he was reaching for either an AK or a pistol. The extent to which his wife was used as a human shield is up for debate. She was in the room with him and she lunged at the SEALs. I can certainly understand how that could get confused into “Human shield.” And they did shoot her, in the leg, but they killed another woman. All of these details were clarified within 24 hours as the SEALs were getting debriefed.

Panetta said he thought they’d probably show the photos but noted that the decision was up to the president. And the president said no.

And I’m not really sure how any of the above “discrepencies” would indicate that they simply made up the entire event. If they made up the entire event, wouldn’t they make sure to get their story perfectly straight instead of confusing minor details?

Take off the tin foil.

No need to make this personal towards me @Qingu. I don’t “personally” need to see the actual DNA. I can’t extract human DNA (though I have extracted other types). But an independent lab could. There should have been multiple samples sent out to multiple labs.

From now on I’m coming to you to get my news. I’m impressed you’re so clear on everything.

So one DNA lab, along with the testimony of a team of SEALs who saw the body alive and dead, the helicopter pilots, the family of the alleged bin Laden now held by the ISI, the crew of the aircraft carrier, the chiefs of staff in the White House, and all of the representatives and senators who were briefed and who saw photos of the body is not enough for you… you need multiple DNA labs?

Something tells me you’ll just keep on moving the goalpost. Because you have an emotional need to doubt the official line.

Thanks for the free psychoanalysis. I usually pay people to comment on my emotional needs.

It is not out of line for any court to order independent testing. I’m actually astonished that Muslim nations have not insisted upon this. As for all the officials, crew, and reps, can you give me one good reason to believe their stories when they didn’t corroborate on first inspection?

It is not uncommon for government officials to be uncovered as liars. Why do you think they hate Assange so much?

Wow, I don’t know where to start.

First of all, let’s say you’re right. Everyone involved in this mission and everyone who allegedly saw proof of the corpse is lying. What makes you think this conspiracy couldn’t then manufacture fake bin Laden DNA for “independent analysis”

Actually, the question I’m really asking is, do you actually expect us to believe that you would consider independent DNA analysis “proof”? You would just concoct some further scenario and ask us to prove that they aren’t faking the DNA.

Here’s one good reason to believe all of their stories: because their stories make sense, and the alternative makes no sense whatsoever. If everyone is lying and we didn’t kill bin Laden, why the HELL would we announce we did when he’d just release a video proving otherwise; why would we crash a helicopter in Abottabad (or maybe that Twitter user in Pakistan and all the eyewitnesses there are also lying)?

And who exactly did Wikileaks uncover as a liar? Be specific.

What do you mean “let’s say you’re right”?

I’m not putting forth an argument or providing any form of alternative story line. I’m not suggesting any type of reasoning behind a theoretical conspiracy theory whatsoever. We could both speculate on that, but it would be entirely fruitless.

I simply want whatever evidence beyond shaky eye witness reports to be made completely public. We’re big kids now. We can take it. And I’m certainly not going to tiptoe around the feelings of anyone who we risk offending by displaying the death of a murderer. I’d actually love to see who gets upset about that.

You are doubting that we actually killed bin Laden.

So, let’s say your doubts reflect a reality in which we did not killed bin Laden. How then would you explain everything that happened in this reality?

I have no explanation. And if I did, that would only move us further from truth.

Please don’t think me stupid for the wanting of independently verifiable evidence.

As for “tiptoing around feelings,” you are oversimplifying.

First, it’s not about offending people. It’s about inflaming the remaining members of al-Qaeda, their allies, and their potential recruits. It’s not a good idea to inflame such people because then they will try to kill more of our soldiers.

Secondly, I agree with Obama that America “is better than that.” We should not drag Hector’s corpse behind our chariot; we should not be like the savages who taunted Saddam Hussein and danced around his corpse at his execution. Showing the world a photograph of bin Laden with his brains blown out would put us into that camp, and it’s important to rise above it.

Third, a photo wouldn’t prove jack shit to conspiracy theorists such as yourself since you’d just claim it could have been photoshopped and then would ask for wanting more “independently verifiable evidence.”

I do not envy your apparent inability to believe any event is real without mountains of forensic evidence and photographs alongside hundreds of people’s eyewitness testimony. What is it like to go through life without knowing if anything people say happened actually did happen?

Yes yes I’m aware of all the pseudo logic to support the story.

I’m also aware how tempting it is to ridicule those who aren’t ready to go with the party line.

By calling me a “conspiracy theorist” when I’ve presented no conspiracy, and asking what it’s like to go through life “without knowing”, demonstrates your inclination to ridicule those who challenge you, rather than conducting a reasonable discussion.

What does it feel like to go through life “without knowing”? I’ll tell you… It’s Liberating!

Let’s try something.

Either we did kill bin Laden in the raid, or we didn’t. Can you please give me an estimate as to what you think the likelihood of each is?

Like, “All of these people said we killed bin Laden, but… they won’t release a photo, and the government isn’t always honest. So I’m only 99% sure.”

Or “Maybe all of those people were lying. But then that raises even more questions, like what actually happened in Abottabad, what is that chopper wreckage doing there, why hasn’t bin Laden made a video announcing his non-death, why would such a vast conspiracy form and what would their motive be in doing this now, what is the ISI’s involvement in this conspiracy, etc etc. Therefore I place the likelihood of his not being dead at only 1%.”

Can you walk me through how you would go through this logic?

@Qingu “what you think the likelihood of each is?”

Pretty damned likely that we actually killed bin Laden.

@Qingu Like,...“So I’m only 99% sure.”

Pretty damned likely at 99%

@Qingu “Maybe all of those people were lying… that raises even more questions, like what actually happened”

Yep.

So you would characterize your doubt of the official story as somewhere around 1%?

Would 1% doubt be comparable to your doubts that the moon landing was real, that the Holocaust happened, and that Obama was born in the United States, more or less?

I don’t doubt the Moon landing or Holocaust because of all the multiple sources of evidence to support the truth statements about them.

I DO doubt the Bin Laden ordeal because of the LACK of multiple sources of evidence to support the truth statements about it.

You don’t think the SEALs and other US forces, the Pakistanis who saw/heard the raid, the military who took pictures of the raid’s aftermath, the ISI who took custody of bin Laden’s surviving family, as well as the chiefs of staffs and representatives who saw photographic and video evidence count as “multiple sources”?

That’s multiple sources of first hand and second hand witnesses. That’s not multiple sources of physical evidence.

I see. And you’ve personally seen multiple sources of physical evidence for the moon landing, holocaust, and Obama’s being born in the US?

The Pakistanis “who saw/heard” the raid didn’t even know that bin Laden was there.

Moon rocks at the National Museum of Natural History

Holocaust Tattoo Photos

And honestly, I don’t know what to think, and could care less when and where Obama was born. But that’s different than blindly believing anything that anyone with an agenda has to say about it one way or another.

Of course they didn’t know he was there. But they know the special forces attacked the compound. So assuming they aren’t all lying, you have to at least believe the SEALs really did attack this compound. The question then becomes if bin Laden was actually living there or if someone else was.

That question is easily answered because the ISI has bin Laden’s family and his 12 year old daughter says the SEALs killed her dad. Or are they lying, along with the SEALs and everyone who claims to have seen the corpse?

I certainly hope we attacked that compound. Otherwise we need to start an investigation as to why American helicopters are falling out of the sky in Pakistan. We have physical evidence to support that investigation.

Unfortunately, there is no further physical evidence available to discuss except for the photos of some dead guys other than bin Laden.

I suggest that 12 year old girls might say anything you wanted to hear with a machine gun pointed at her head and dead guys lying all around her.

But again. If bin Laden wasn’t there… oh, fuck it. I’m done with this rabbit hole.

LOL, and I thought I was a stubborn @ss, the overwelming conclusion is we shot him, theres no conspiracy about it, he sleeps with the fishes and military helicopters crash as well as fighter jets, that is normal, 8.5 years Air Force.

@woodcutter “Just as important, let those who would be supporting him see what happens to sick demented mass murderers.”

This is one argument that makes no sense to me. Do you seriously believe that threatening a potential suicide bomber with death is a very effective deterrent? It’s like threatening a golden retriever with a tennis ball…