Is Fluther too strict when it comes to grammar?

The mod team is usually pretty understanding about non-native speakers, did they know that about you? I couldn’t tell because your English is very good. I personally don’t think they’re too strict, and I know many have the same concerns about an edited Q not going to the page top when it’s resubmitted. I think that’s more of an issue here than the typo thing.

I think it was unfortunate timing that you did not learn about the moderation until hours later. But I don’t think the standards are too strict.

Just run your question through a spell checker first.

Ouch, of course with grammar in this question I meant spelling.

I don’t know, but even if I was a native speaker, is the addition of one extra letter that much of a problem that a simple note among the answers couldn’t fix it?

Normally, Firefox’s built-in spell checker would alert me of this, but it coincidentally wasn’t available when I wrote this specific question.

Know, eye fink on the hole it’s dun farely & is ment two help make the sight a beta playce :¬)

Now I’m curious about the Q

I got modded for using ‘to’ instead of ‘too’. I think modding minor shit like that is stupid when dream questions are allowed. Anything for page views I guess.

I don’t think the standards are too strict but it’s a shame the turn-around time is so slow at times. That is understandable since the mods are volunteers though.

I don’t think the standards are too strict. Spelling and grammar mistakes are annoying and can make questions and answers ambiguous or even incomprehensible. It is the writer’s job to make his thoughts clear to the reader. It doesn’t take too much effort to get it right.

I don’t think its too strict but I do think that a modded question should go back to the top when it’s resubmitted.

Or how about when a question is modded for a small typo like this, it remains visible and answerable while it’s going back for correction? I think a question only needs to be hidden if it’s totally un-publishable in its current form.

Of course it’s good that an eye is being kept on spelling and grammar, but a simple mistake like writing refridgerator or @johnpowell‘s ‘to’ doesn’t really affect a question that much, does it? If someone would point the mistake out in the answers I could edit it, I guess, but at least in this case it didn’t make a question ambiguous or incomprehensible, the thoughts were clear and one mistake shouldn’t hurt the eye that much. I’m a grammar nazi myself (though more so in Dutch), so I can feel the pain, but this measure is a bit drastic.

@downtide‘s method sounds perfect, but then again, nobody is building new features into the site anymore, is there?

I’m with Vincentt on this one. His English is better than 95% of the people here.

This was a case of naming the cactus while the kitchen is on fire.

Does it matter anymore? Really? Maybe a mod was over-zealous, but I had no problem finding the Q. The important thing here is, what food did you decide to take?

I thought that when so many people were complaining about questions being tanked for such a long period of time, that it was stated that modded Qs would be returned to the top of the list ?

Well, evidently not. I guess that approach just makes way too much sense :)

I and many others have consistently voiced frustration over how many good Qs either get buried from view this way or get eliminated altogether over minor stuff.

And I really don’t know why the site’s coding would have to be changed to allow a question to appear back at the top. All a mod would have to do is copy/paste it in its entirety, resubmit it as a new Q and eliminate the previous duplicate. They remove stuff all the time anyway, so why would this be so problematic?

Where there’s a will, there’s a way. But on this issue, there has been a collective deaf ear turned to the user’s frustrations with this policy. It’s ridiculous in light of the fact that it’s easily remedied.

Someone upthread commented that the burying of the Q was more of a problem than having spelling corrected and I agree completely.

But evidently, no matter how many complain about this policy, not much has changed.
(or likely will change.)

“All a mod would have to do is copy/paste it in its entirety, resubmit it as a new Q and eliminate the previous duplicate.” It sounds easy until you have to deal with it when one of your kids is screaming because they learned that bubbling water shouldn’t be touched.

But it could be automated. That would mean that someone was actually coding for the site anymore. I wouldn’t expect to see many changes anytime soon.

If you’re concerned that your question won’t be on the main page, abandon it and re-ask (without the typos, of course). That will get you back to the top of the queue. (I’d also recommend making note when you abandon the first question so it doesn’t get moderated as a duplicate.)

The problem that we moderators struggle with constantly is even handedness and being perceived as being fair. If you’re going to let minor errors slide, at what point do you draw the line? Two errors? Four? How do you avoid cries of favoritism? Do older, established users get more leeway? Do new users get more leeway? (Non native English speakers – when we can determine who they are- already get more leeway and additional help.) We regularly get accused of “being out to get” particular users, or “not liking” someone.

The only solution that I can see is to be as objective as possible, rather than subjective. We moderators range from “grammar Nazis” to “almost anything goes” (somewhat tongue-in-cheek), so if we don’t stick to an objective standard, there’s guaranteed to be uneven moderating.

So a mistake is a mistake is a mistake (except for those that we don’t catch). That way we can be assured that everyone gets treated equally. (And we do try to be helpful and add a note about what the problem is when it’s a minor/hard to identify issue.)

The situation you describe sounds overly picky. It is important to the integrity of the site to maintain decent writing standards to distinguish it from the majority of crappy sites out there, but removing an entire post for a small error or two is excessive. I don’t think it’s common though, since I’ve seen errors in my posts and did not have them removed.

When you are using math you have to maintain the quality of the mathematical language regardless of whether you are plotting the course of sub-atomic particles in an accelerator or compiling Nielson statistics for the drivel they show on the networks.

Why should the English language be any different?

@Blondesjon I get what you’re saying, but I’d counter that one can still garner the intent of the language despite some errors. Errors in communicating a mathematical concept will change the entire nature of the problem since math is far more exacting than language. If I say “there” instead of “their”, no problem. If I say x+1/x or (x+1)/x, those aren’t the same but the difference is critical.

I was just going to make the same suggestion as @syz. I would abandon the old question and ask a new one.

English is not my main language either, but after a good year of visiting Fluther I hardly ever get moderated for grammar or spelling mistakes anymore.

To answer your question, is the moderation too strict? Yes, on some occasions it gets taken too far, but on some occasions it is probably a little slack. Don’t get me wrong, I think the moderators do a very good job, but they are human and in a position where they need to interpret the situation on a case by case basis.

Just stick with it, and eventually your spelling will improve, It can be mildly annoying to get moderated, but at the end of the day it’s just a question. Most questions we ask over the course of a day in real life dont even get an intelligible or correct answer.

There are days when it seems panties are in a bunch by nitpickers but overall I’d say the mods are very lenient. I’m dyslexic and I often type via a keyboard not my own so I have all kinds of oopses and I’d say 99% of them are ignored.

@cockswain . . . But the difference between their and there is critical, especially when the usage is being read, not heard.

An individual with a knack for English, as many native speakers inherently have, would be able to pick out the difference and glean the intended meaning. This holds true for a mathematically inclined individual looking at the example you made.

On the other hand, folks with a more tenuous grip on either discipline may have a difficult time understanding what the comment/equation’s author is trying to convey.

Yeah, you make a good point. I like what @poisonedantidote says above, in that sticking with the site will make one a better English writer in general. I would never have guessed he/she wasn’t a native speaker.

Also not a native speaker – I like the moderation here – makes one step up their game.

I think @downtide has a great idea! Have 2 levels of question moderation. If the issue is just a few typos, the question should remain active while awaiting editing, or the mods should just correct the typos and let the OP know about the corrections.

The moderators should never MODIFY anything anyone writes. I have seen it happen and it turns into a huge mess. And this bunch is so all over the place it would be a mess.

edit :: I should add that on my site I do modify things. But that is only stuff like fixing botched HTML. If they modify in any way that can be perceived as changing intent we are fucked.

If you got nodded for one misspelling, then, yes, the rules are too strict. Modding that just seems petty.

But, in general, the rules are not too strict.

No. Think about it this way: now you’ll never forget how to spell refrigerator.

@tinyfaery I flagged you for saying “nodded” instead of “modded.”

I get modded for the occasional misspelling, usually a typo since I am a spelling fanatic, and deal with it. I see lots of misspellings and grammatical no-nos [at least for formal English] slip through. They irk me but I say nothing.

To me, subconsciously at least, they reflect the quality of discourse on Fluther. But, hey, the founding fathers [of the US for flutherites from elsewhere] were, at best, inconsistent with their spelling. So, hey, who am I to judge? [One reason why I’ll never be a mod]

I get modded for asking silly nonsensical questions. I’m surprised my talking clock question is still alive :-p

Whoops. Damn auto correct.

One of my favorite things about Fluther is the community standards insisting on proper spelling, grammar, and helpful answers. So I would answer your question with, “No, I don’t think the moderating standards are too strict.”

As @syz says, we try very hard to be objective in our modding. Because of that, “refridgerator”, “definately”, or using “to” instead of “too” are no different to us than “emoshun”, “skool”, or using “u” instead of “you”. It’s really the only way to be fair about it. (Obviously, we’re not always successful in our efforts… we’re only human, and there isn’t always a mod on duty, but we do try.)

I completely understand the frustration about a question being buried. I would love to see edited questions bumped to the top of the page when they return. That would certainly help and it’s definitely on my wish list. I have no idea how much coding would be required to make it happen, though.

@Buttonstc Unfortunately, your suggestion about mods posting it as a new question isn’t feasible. For one thing, any answers already received would be lost, and for another, the question would appear to come from the mod rather than the original asker.

<rant>

What bugs me about this question and dozens of others just like it—not picking on you, @Vincentt, because it happens again and again—is the same thing that bothers me about a prevailing social attitude, which is also both fostered by and magnified by the media: the tendency to turn an instance into a global generalization.

It’s not “Why did this one guy lead me on?” but “Why do guys behave like this?”
It’s not “Why did Senator X say this?’ but “Why do Republicans speak this way?”
It’s not “What did my neighbor mean when she—?” but “What do {Christians | Muslims | Jews | atheists} think they’re doing when they—?”

Have we absolutely lost the ability to see individuals and to deal with single cases? Have we no sense of personal responsibility any more? Do we actually think that everybody who does anything is obeying some universal rule and that if we only knew what the rule is, we would have a clear explanation of their actions?

Are you—we—each of us obeying some universal rule every time we do anything? I don’t think I am.

Questions that say “What does it mean when a person does (or says) X?” are asking for this universal rule. How can there be just one meaning for every instance of a certain act or remark?

If a question like this one asked “Was this particular case an instance of overzealous modding? because I’m annoyed at what happened to my question.” I might be inclined to say “Why, yes, probably so. It’s too bad, but those things happen. Don’t take it personally—but next time, do try to remember the spelling of ‘refrigerator.’” But when a single case turns into a global statement about the ongoing work of a group of individuals—as if they were a single-minded, faceless entity operating under automatic programming, without personality, discretion, or individual choice—I personally would reject the question as meaningless.

</rant>

If the mods care so much about minor spelling errors why don’t they just correct the error themselves? If they don’t want to put words into other peoples mouths then what is the problem in the first place?

@Lightlyseared In very rare cases, I have done so (for someone who just couldn’t make the correction on their own), but I’m the only one with that ability. I’m not here 24 hours a day (I know it seems like I am, sometimes!). On the whole though, it’s not feasible. We return a lot of questions for typos… we wouldn’t have much time for anything else if we were editing all of those. Additionally, a lot of people would be extremely upset if we took it upon ourselves to change what they’ve written.

@augustlan – How feasible would it be to add a spell checker when you post the question, that automatically sends the question back for editing? But the poster can ask a mod to approve it with the spelling in case the spelling is intended (like a acronym or wacky title).

I’ve always thought that once you edit a modded question it should jump back to the top of the page.

@syz I think the problem with asking it as a new question is that you only get 3 a day. If you’ve already asked 2 others, or know you need to ask more after this, re-asking as a new question really isn’t an issue. And we know you guys are busy, and volunteers, but if the moderation that needs to be done is too much for the current mods, then it’s probably time to add on another mod or two to help out.

@Vincentt Unfortunately, you can’t spell check things in that first title line. Browsers don’t recognize it as the right kind of text (or whatever), which really sucks. It’s not that the community is too strict, it’s that the punishment for simple human error can be rather harsh every now and again, and we seem to have issues finding a way around that (or rather, implementing the solution people have suggested. I nominate @johnpowell for going in and doing some technical work while the others are working for Twitter.)

Wouldn’t it be a whole lot simpler if everybody, you know, spelled correctly?

Why not just hire John Powell to handle tech support and implement any changes which would be made if the guys were not currently employed by Twitter?

Auggie is a fantastic community manager but shouldn’t there also be someone else on paid staff to handle the techy stuff?

I couldn’t find the thread where this issue of buried questions due to minor stuff was previously discussed but I distinctly recall where it was stated that modded Qs would be placed at the top instead of just returned to their previous place. Obviously that didn’t happen even tho it should have.

Why not just hire a part time person for all the techy stuff, whether it’s Ryan or anybody else. That would make so much sense wouldn’t it ?

Why do people have such a problem spelling things correctly? I mean, really, OP, I think you screwed yourself here by not taking the time and energy to just Google the damn word if you weren’t sure you were spelling it right. Do you really not see the little orange squiggly line underneath the word that tells you you aren’t spelling it right?OK, maybe that’s a Firefox thing.

The point here, is, if there were problems caused by your spelling that inconvenienced you, it was basically your own fault for not having the consideration to make sure it was well-spelled and clear.

Sorry if that was harsh. I know you are a non-native speaker. But please use one of the thousands of online dictionaries to spell your words so you don’t have to take time and energy to ask this question. Kthanksbye.

I covered the spell check thing a while back here if you use Firefox. This will turn it on everywhere.

I use Firefox as @johnpowell says. It pretty much makes me look brilliant. ;)

I really thought there would be at least snacks by now.

<hands @Dog some chocolate>

No, Fluther is not too strict when it comes to spelling errors. For “grammar nazis” like myself, I get incredibly irritated with the incorrect usage of “to/too”, “your/you’re”, and “there/their/they’re”, along with other simple errors that should have been taught in the sixth grade. I honestly don’t understand how some people passed English in high school.

Honest typos happen, even to arrogant, cranky people such as myself, but sloppy handwriting and the misspelling of common words irritate the bejeezus out of me.

There are degrees of sensitivity, also, about usage. Personally, I would never, never use the expression, “grammar Nazi,” but that’s my choice.

@WillWorkForChocolate I honestly don’t understand how some people passed English in high school. Broken school system?

@HungryGuy I don’t think we’ll ever see a built-in spell checker on Fluther. They use up a lot of ‘space’, and would make the site really slow. Most modern browsers have their own spell checkers these days, but I think you have to enable them in all the right places.

@Jeruba You’re completely right, of course. I kind of thought like that after the first correction, then after the second one I posted this question, but it is, of course, really, really whiny.

@gailcalled I often refer to myself as grammar nazi but of course, do not mean to offend anyone. It is usually between classmates that I use the term who are not offended at all, but on the internet I should pehaps be more careful in using the term.

@Dog : I tried to get food going up there but had no takers. I was sad. :-(

Chrome browser also catches spelling errors in the Q title

No such thing!!!

Hey, @Vincentt…I had the same thing happen to my music question overnight. I mispelled one word, and it got held up in editing for I don’t know how long while I was sleeping…they could have just fixed it already…

I think it’s a good thing that they preserve the Q for the original writer. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? They get so much flack as it is, and for Pete’s sake, you guys, is anyone’s Q so world shakingly important that you can’t simply abandon it (as suggested above) and repost on top of the page (with notice so that it doesn’t get pulled as a repeat, also suggested above.) Making such a huge fuss over this seems silly when there are other options.

Except if it’s a time-sensitive Q which gets held up for a long time and then gets buried by being returned in its original place instead of at the top of the que.

Vincent (the OP) stated this specifically.

And the whole issue of questions being either removed entirely (rather than JUST some of the crappy responses modded off) or buried in obscurity has been a sore spot for a lot of users for a very long time.

At least the wholesale tanking of Qs merely for poor responses seems to have diminished a bit but Qs still get buried needlessly all the time regardless of how time-sensitive they may be.

That’s why.

Realistically, no one should be in life-or-death reliance on a response from a free Q&A site on the Internet.

And I don’t want someone fixing my grammar, thanks. I make typos and other errors that cause me to whimper or growl, and once in a while I flag my own Q so I can correct them, but I’ll take my chances rather than giving carte blanche to a moderator to change my words.

@Jeruba Not life-or-death (although I did post about how to handle an asthma attack), but leaking toilets and college papers due the next day are still right freaking now, peoples! types of questions.

Maybe Fluther should add a little section, that people could refer to (kind of like the style thingy that’s underneath where we post our answers) that you could click on, that would take you to an area that shows a bunch of alphabetized “common spelling errors” with the correct words (and definitions).

People like @Jeruba and @WillWorkForChocolate and of course the mods, could provide the first set of raw materials. Then each of us, when we spot some common ones, could PM the mods to add certain words (like refrigerator).

It could be called the Know-No Dictionary : )

@Kardamom That seems like a lot of work when we can all just Google whatever the word may be just as quickly. Especially since it won’t make us any more aware of our spelling boo-boo.

@MyNewtBoobs Hope you’re not complaining about my response time. Not everyone has a personal reference librarian. :-)

@MyNewtBoobs Another example of right freaking now, peoples! :D

@janbb No, you’re so awesome I can’t even believe it. You’re pretty much my god at this point in my life. For real.

@jonsblond Hellz yeah!

how in the world did we ever get this far without the internet?

says the man fluthering from the bathroom ;)

TMI

pooping and fluthering. A new high, or a new low?

@cockswain Aw, geez. Another thread gone to shit.

well, crap. look what I started

I’ve been following this thread for a while and I just want to say, I am in the bathroom right now.

Respect, @Blondesjon. Respect.

I’m just jealous of all of you with wifi, I guess.

ain’t nothin’ wrong with a good squat n’ surf.

Sounds like a toad and fish platter at a bad restaurant…

is that you going on with the food again? make mine a double!

I keep trying to get this to food, what an interesting way to accomplish it!

Thai Spicy Noodle Salad and rosemary foccacia for dinner…

Oh come on! :P