Would you allow your maid to bring her young children with her?

Please don’t take this the wrong way..I wouldn’t have a maid even if I could afford one…and if for some reason, I’d give up my ethics, yes I would allow her children because I am a mother myself and know what it’s like and if my house isn’t friendly to her, then I wouldn’t hire her because obviously if she can not leave her kids elsewhere and has to clean other people’s houses, she’s got more problems than me and my bulldogs and feelings of whether people ‘below you’ are trustworthy. Which they are, mom works in housekeeping, she’s yet to steal a thing, crazy.

Could you look into child care options near your house for her? Or is she an illegal alien (in which case you should not be employing her)?

Nope, sorry. I don’t want kids in my house unless they are family. I don’t mind visitors bringing their kids if they behave but if I hired a maid ( I wouldn’t because I don’t trust many people ) I would not allow her to bring her kids. She would not be there to bring her family over. She would be there to do her job. Take her kids to a day care or find a babysitter. Can do either of those. Sorry about your luck.

I see nothing unethical about giving someone a job, whether their immigrant status is legal or not.

And I’d want to help out a working mother as well (day care is in insanely expensive and probably costs more per hour than she makes housekeeping).

BUT, yes, I’d definitely be worried about liability mixing unsupervised children and vicious dogs in the same house…

@HungryGuy My dogs are outside in a yard, but she has asked me before why her children can’t go play with them. It makes me worry she’d let them go play with my dogs even though I told her not to.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir What do you mean by people “below you”? I never said she wasn’t trustworthy so what did you mean there?

@BBSDTfamily Forgive me for assuming but I find it interesting that people qualify having maids with talking about their trustworthiness as if that’s something we need to automatically discuss and as if her wanting to bring her kids is further proof that she’s somehow trying to pull a fast one on you. She is not actually below you, hence the air quotes and I know you know (logically) that but when I read your details, I couldn’t help but think that you clearly feel above her in some way or you wouldn’t feel the need to tell us how trustworthy she seems and that her kids are well-behaved (as if the assumption is that they’re not trustworthy and their kids are animals).
@HungryGuy – nothing wrong with giving a person a job but, for me, needing a maid isn’t something in my future, that’s all. I can clean my own house (not that I do, the damn thing is a mess). There are different jobs and surely people think it’s all about individuals but I’ve learned enough about so called 1st world white people hiring 3rd world people of color through participating in a very global work shift involving mostly poor women to not want to contribute to the problem. I recommend this text.

I wouldn’t have a maid if I could afford one. It’s a maid so I’m assuming she doesn’t have a lot of money. People struggle and have to do things they don’t particularly want to. Edit: So yes, I would allow her to bring her children. If you aren’t comfortable with it, get another maid.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Lots of people wouldn’t have maids because things can easily be stolen, and I pointed out that her kids are well-behaved to let you all know that they’re not running around my house tearing up things. But they’re still kids and if she can’t supervise them while cleaning, no matter how well-behaved they are it is still a 5 and 3 year old in my house left to their own doings! That doesn’t mean I think I’m above her, it means I’m trying to give a good description of my situation that I want advice on.

@BBSDTfamily How do you know maids steal things?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I know for a fact that some do and that it’s easy for them to do it. I’ve had many help me clean my house and have had things stolen. Usually small things that I don’t notice right away. So, I know from experience. I also know that not ALL of them steal, and that’s one reason I really want to find a way to keep this girl because I trust her.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Perhaps you assume too much just by reading a question. She never said anything about the woman being “below her”, you did. BTW quite a few people have had their things stolen by maids. It happens a lot. Not every maid is a thief but a maid is in a good position to steal things if she is willing to. A better position than most people because they are all over the house cleaning.

I have had the same issue with my gardener whom I totally enjoy as a person. But..he often brings his 5 year old son along and while I like the child too, it is often annoying that he is having to stop often to deal with him. Also there have been times when he has messed up work his dad already had completed such as throwing rocks and dirt on my deck or patio that was just blown off and hosed down, or digging holes in my yard and driveway while his dad works.

I told him that it was fine to bring him once in awhile if he had no other choice, but I prefer he does not.

I don’t think it is appropriate to be paying someone who is having their attention diverted by children. In my case I pay $20 an hour for ‘extra’ services and so why should I pay the father to clean up his childs messes? lol

@marinelife No she’s not illegal but I’m not able to afford both her childcare and her cleaning fees.

@Coloma That’s a good point about him slowing down yet charging you by the hour when the child is there. She charges me the same amount every week regardless of how long it takes her so I can’t really use that reason, but if I were paying by the hour then I’d feel the same way that you do!

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Why is it unethical across the board to have someone clean your home? The lady who cleans my house twice a month loves to clean – really and truly. She has grown her own business doing what she enjoys. If everyone shared your blanket attitude toward her profession many people would be out of work. Your stance that hiring a maid is unethical is actually more of an indication that a maid is “below” anyone who may hire one than anything else I’ve seen on this thread. Is it possible you have a negative view toward people who employ housekeepers because of how employers may have treated your mother during her time working in similar positions?

I did not get the impression that she told us about the children or the incident with the furniture because of mistrust. It is a legitimate question to ask if a 5 y/o, 3 y/o and 10 m/o can honestly entertain themselves alone while she works – this would leave them unsupervised and kids are curious. They do stuff, especially when adults aren’t around. That’s normal for all children.

As for the furniture, it would be normal to ask about every child with access to it. Why would she exclude the maid’s children? @BBSDTfamily do you have any children or relatives with kids who may possibly have done it? If the maid’s children did do it, perhaps she denied it because she is afraid she will no longer be permitted to bring them and she worries about losing her job because she has no one to care for them while she works. It isn’t impossible and clearly someone isn’t telling the truth because no one is owning up to it even though there is makeup on the furniture. It could her as easily as it could be anyone else.

I’ve seen loads of movies where maids had the leading roles and i have never seen them steal anything…

Damn, those movies are hot.

@Supacase I do have a 14 month old, so I asked her about it instead of just assuming it was her children. The reason I don’t see how it couldn’t have been hers is because the makeup bottle was gone, and there was only makeup on the side of the furniture. It leads me to believe she saw the mess, cleaned up the portion she saw on the furniture, and threw the bottle away to hide the evidence. My 14 month old cannot reach as high as the makeup went (it was on a baby crib) and he certainly wouldn’t have known to throw the bottle away afterwards. Also, I don’t think my son could have unscrewed the lid on the bottle. No other kids have been here. No proof though, so when she denied it I just left it at that.

Is she or the company she works for licensed and bonded? Does your homeowner’s insurance cover for what might happen if the children play with the dogs, despite your request that they not do so? I would look into this first, if you already haven’t. It might not be worth employing her if it puts you at financial risk.

Does she accomplish the job to your satisfaction within the required time-frame? If not, then it is time to terminate the service.

Are either you or your husband home while she is there? If not, would she be willing to restrict the children to a room that is made child-friendly, if they are only there for a few hours? I’d be willing to put away objects of value and purchase electrical outlet covers, etc, and invest in a few kid-friendly movies for a cleaning service agent that was appreciated.

@BBSDTfamily Maybe there is someone she can bring with her to watch the children. She could pay that person, but would might be able to charge them less since she is there and the sitter would not be fully responsible for them. Maybe a teenager or elderly friend? It would surely be less expensive for her than paying for full daycare somewhere else.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir People in every type of job steal. It isn’t something that is determined by career choice. I don’t think it has been implied here that all maids steal or that only maids steal.

ETA: Hell, even my mother-in-law goes through our stuff while watching our daughter and I am 99.9% certain she has taken things.

Hey, I have a housekeepr every other month or so too, and my gardener. There is NOTHING unethical about hiring ‘help.’ I have EARNED these perks after doing all my own housekeeping and gardening during my child raising years. WTF! Honest work for honest pay, it is not like hiring some poor person and exploiting them! I pay extremely well, about $130 a month for my gardener plus extra ‘honey dos’ @ $20 an hour and I always provide food, drink for him, popcicles for his son, and..I tip my housekeeper generously too!

I wish EVERY woman could afford some well deserved help!

@Pied_Pfeffer She doesn’t work for a company nor is she licensed, etc. She just does it herself. I will check on my homeowner’s insurance, thank you for pointing that out to me!! I will suggest keeping the kids in one certain room and see how she feels about that.

@Supacase Excellent idea about her bringing someone else along! I will ask her about that.

@Coloma I feel the same way! I see nothing wrong with paying someone a fair wage to do a job that they agree to. I even let my maid set her own price. I view the situation as benefitting each of us.

I would find another maid to clean your house.

@BBSDTfamily

I agree 100% ( obviously ) lol

And, my gardener comes 2x a month. Sooo, at $65 a mow & blow, plus ‘refreshments’. I think it’s a pretty good deal. ‘Our joke’..” Scott…I need a blowjob!” haha

@Supacase There is nothing wrong with cleaning. In fact, that kind of work should be valued. However, as far as pay and conditions and assumptions go, it isn’t valued, whatsoever. As I said, I wouldn’t own a maid. If you think you should have a maid, so be it.

As far as I know, in most countries, it’s not legal to own a maid. They’re business owners and employees of housekeeping companies.

Though, personally, I’d love to own a maid!

@HungryGuy Yeah, yeah, you know what I meant. And thanks for that last, how profound.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – My pleasure! :-p

Probably not. I mean, I sympathize and all, but at the end of the day, if her kids are breaking stuff and messing your place up, that’s sorta going in the opposite direction of what you want a housecleaner to do.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Many maids do not have time/experience to get another job that pays as well as housecleaning does. I live in one of the lowest-paying states and my maid makes around $25/hour. She doesn’t have education that would get her a higher paying job. She also doesn’t have time for a full time job and enjoys making her own schedule. It is a great job for her and it works out great for me. I really can’t see how you can say you’d have to “give up your ethics” to hire one as you stated unless you think this part of the workforce shouldn’t be given job opportunities. I think anyone who wants to work and can find a job is free to do so, and there is nothing unethical about it at all.

I agree with @BBSDTfamily How could being a professional maid be unethical. They are not enslaved. They are willingly working as a maid.

May I have permission to step up on the soap box for a moment on the behalf of those in the cleaning industry?

@Mikewlf337 – Right! My employer is being unethical as well. Making me work for a living…slaving behind a hot computer 7.5 hours every day, 5 days a week…coding and testing C code… How cruel!

Egad! They even employ women and people of color slaving away doing Production Control and User Acceptance Testing! What sexists and racists they are!

I don’t think I’d ever have a maid, and if by chance I did, it would really depend on the circumstances.

I really think many of you are being purposefully blind to very real facts that show how only certain people end up being maids for others and that’s where the lack of ethics lies, not in any actual work like cleaning. As usual, I’m talking about systemic issues and not any one person doing any one thing – as I said, my mother works in housekeeping but there is a reason why ALL of the maids there are women and immigrant – or perhaps Mr. Donald Trump is simply giving these little women their big shot at opportunity. Since he seems to be so just and all, just a common fella working for his buck.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Ok, well, maybe. But you did a really crap job of presenting your argument. Don’t yell at everyone else for not following your train of thought if you didn’t explain said train of thought in the first place.

@MyNewtBoobs I was not yelling. This is the internet, you can’t actually identify yelling and I didn’t feel the need to explain anything I said. As the thread moves along, I’ll explain as I feel necessary and, frankly, if you think I did a crappy job, that’s fine to say but I disagree. I stand by my words.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Well, this is the first time you’ve mentioned anything about systematic issues, or targeting women and illegal aliens, all you said before was that it was “unethical”. So how exactly is anyone supposed to know what you’re talking about? Because we all know you so well?

@MyNewtBoobs I suppose that’s a good criticism, to a degree. I think that might be a mistake of mine. Or perhaps I think that people understand these dynamics and that it’s obvious. I suppose it’s not that obvious. Still, if people wanted to know why I found it unethical, they could have asked rather than saying that since it’s not slavery, it’s ethical and awesome. @BBSDTfamily I apologize for some of this derailing. Thank you for asking this question and engaging in conversation with me. These topics are difficult to tease apart sometimes and I just wanted to express how it came off sounding because I think it’s important to not let certain things go by unquestioned.

It seems to me “maid” is an interesting choice of words. To me a maid is someone who serves tea, answers the door and dusts the china. A cleaning lady is what I have had, someone who comes in and cleans the house because I hate domestic chores. Maids are for the wealthy.

Hiring someone to do what I don’t like to do or can’t do is the way the world works. Plumbers really have crappy jobs but I hire them when I need one. I pay what they ask or find someone who charges what I think is fair.

To me, cleaning houses is an honest, honorable way to make a living. I would not be embarrassed to tell anyone my mom, sister, etc. was a house cleaner. It’s not like being a prostitute or something demeaning as that.

Yes if she is a good maid and her children are well behave. If she is an honest person, respectful, trustworthy, and responsible then I would keep her. I worked as a maid in a hotel for five years. I am a male and most of the housekeepers were females. They were very nice to me and sometimes brought in food to share. I appreciate all the training I got on the job from there ladies.Housekeeping is hard work. Thank you, RTT

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I woulda thought you of all people would’ve figured out by now that you have to explain everything ad infinitatum if it has any sort of socio-political nuance or systemic analysis, particularly when it comes to practices commonly accepted as ethically neutral. Hence why I’m staying out for now.

I have to agree with @Simone_De_Beauvoir on this. If your house is not child friendly, there is the real chance of injury. But in the West Indies, there are no hard and fast rules, since child care arrangements tend to be informal (this is changing, what with industrialization and high employment in areas other than domestic service) and a lot will depend on the relations between employer and employee, the age of the children, the distances they have to travel, the quantum of wages, etc..

@incendiary_dan It’s not because it’s a socio-political thing, it’s because I can’t read other’s minds, and neither can anyone else. There’s nothing wrong with wanting an argument and evidence to accompany a thesis. And I don’t understand why, in an age where everyone and their mother has communication issues, it’s so wrong to ask someone to elaborate on their idea before agreeing with them unconditionally.

@MyNewtBoobs Did I say there was anything wrong with asking for clarification? My point was that you can’t assume that people have the same background information and analyses, especially when it’s such uncommon fields of study or points of view. I got what @Simone_De_Beauvoir was saying (I think), but I also come at things from an anti-opression background. Others do not, and therefore need basic concepts clarified to understand the viewpoint.

I don’t understand why people have such a big problem with @BBSDTfamily having a maid?

I would be ok with an infant coming with the maid for sure. As the kids get older I guess there is more risk of something going wrong. I don’t have dogs, but I would worry the maid might let the children play with the dog from what you have said. Is the 5 year old only there until she starts school in the fall?

It’s tricky, I am not sure what I would do.

My main concern would be the kids with the dogs. That would be a potentially huge lawsuit if one of the dogs bit one of the kids. This happened to a friend of mine. Her dog bit a realitives child and her insurance said to get rid of the dog or lose her homeowners insurance.

@JLeslie Weird. Seems to me, people are completely okay with having a maid. Read the thread. @MyNewtBoobs – I have no problem with being asked for clarification. Did you ask me for some? @incendiary_dan – trust me, I wanted to stay behind too but certain things, again, must be simply stated so that it is not assumed that we all feel and accept certain practices. When a q like this comes up with details like that, by staying away, we are guilty with our silence. However, I do agree that it’s getting clearer and clearer that trying to talk about certain things on Fluther is kind of ridiculous.

I would tell her she can’t have the children with her. I’m sure she can make other arrangements for them. If not, she can’t work here.

You however, may need someone you can trust more than you need the kids to not hurt your house.

You seem to have three choices. Make her make other arrangements for the kids. Pay for other arrangements for the kids, or accept the trade-off of damage for trustworthiness.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Yes, I read the thread. There were a coupLe people saying they would not hire a maid. You said you were concerned about the systemic issues, I understand your concern. But, no one requires an immigrant to be a maid. If the maid is being mistreated, overworked, or undercompensated, then I have a problem with it. If he/she (I used to have a male housekeeper) does a good job and is respected in every way including wage, I cannot see any problem with what is an honest days work. Some people clean, bus tables, and other jobs similar because they are trying to learn the language when they first arrive and it is a job they can do with little knowledge of the English language. Recently I saw an episode of undercover boss where the woman who cleaned the bathrooms and mopped the floors at the busines loved her job, she liked to clean things. You just never know.

I don’t think Trump thinks he is giving someone a big shot by employing maids, but I think he does understand it is an essential part of his business. He recently worked with one of the maids at one of his hotels, I think he respects the work they do and values anyone who takes pride in their work and has a strong work ethic.

@JLeslie Okay, I really don’t think that’s true about Trump and anything like that of his you see on TV is complete and utter bs. But that’s just my opinion.
I also realize some people like to clean but if you take a hundred maids and ask them why they are maids, I will bet that not a whole lot of them will provide that as a reason.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

I don’t think it has as much to do with not liking to clean as it does with being able to make GOOD money, have a flexible schedule and be your own boss. There’s a lot of perks to those things that others might envy.

Being your own ‘boss’ , self employed, no pressure work conditions, ( other than doing a good job ) and freedom to pick and choose your hours.

I say focus on the POSITIVES of the industry!

@Coloma Most maids are hired through a service. Definitely not their own boss.

@incendiary_dan I know more people who have self-employed housecleaning ladies than ones who work for companies. There are several benefits to hiring a self-employed vs. company-employed person to clean for you.

I would, personally. I’m also a big softy, so that doesn’t say much.

I see your concerns though, and I think that if you are genuinely concerned, you should address the issue with her. Tell her your concerns and go from there. Perhaps look into hiring someone else. That’s the only advice that I can offer.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir A lot of people don’t like their jobs. It is true that the immigrant women you speak of might have little choice, and so having few choices feels confining, they can more easily be taken advantage of, I get that.

By the way I have cleaned a few apartments in my day. My partner and I used to do it every so often for the places we would rent out, we were the listing agents on the property.

@incendiary_dan

I have used a maid ‘service’ but, have also know (the majority )of independant ‘business women’ in the housekeeping biz.

Housekeeping can be a very lucrative job.

Actually, and I think this is very important…I treat my ‘help’ like family.
My ‘girls’ get the quick rundown of what ‘special’ tasks I might have at any given time, I LEAVE them on their own, ( because half the joy is coming home to a clean house ) and tell them..” Listen to music on the computer, soda, food in the fridge, and leave them a nice tip before I hit the road.

I treat them as EQUALS, because they ARE!

Guess what…they go above and beyond for me, because, there is no egoic bullshit and role playing! Just one human relating to another. :-)

I don’t really want to get very involved with the side discussion here, but I would like to throw in my two cents. My sister has been a housekeeper for years… and she loves it. The majority of her clients treat her very well, they tip generously and often give her gifts. She has chosen to stay with the job because she enjoys it. Frankly, I think I would enjoy it, too.

I guess what it boils down to is that if I want to earn brain surgeons wages, I have to become a brain surgeon. If the best job I can get with my background is a greeter at Walmart then that is the job I take. I have had lots of jobs I didn’t like but I like money so I did them. I don’t feel sorry for house cleaners, they choose to be house cleaners and if they don’t like it they have to work to become something else, just like the rest of us did.

To answer the original question, no I would not allow children to accompany. I have had similar situations in the past and allowing an employee to bring a child to work has always ended unpleasantly.

That said, my mom had a house cleaner who brought her 2 sons to work with her from the time they were toddlers. They however were very well behaved, they sat in front of the television and didn’t move. That was before the day of remote controls so they watched the same channel the whole time too, how amazing is that! Of course that was in a day when children sat when they were told to sit and didn’t move until they were told to move. I still communicate with one of those boys, he is I think in his 30’s now and he is normal. He did not become rageful, stilted or otherwise mentally impaired by sitting in the chair while his mom worked.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Okay. Fair enough. But are you willing to take such a stand for anyone who doesn’t like having to work for a living?

@HungryGuy Are you? And do you really believe all jobs are created equal? Because if you do and you think, say, my having to work for a living is the same in all respects as some of the maids having to work for a living, you’d be delusional.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I’m “delusional” just because I don’t agree on you on an issue. Where have I heard that before?

Anyway, I’d rather not have to work for a living. Working sucks! What difference does it make what that job is (as long as the working conditions are safe, the wages fair, and the employee is treated with respect)?

@HungryGuy Okay. No, no that’s not why you’re delusional. If you really think all jobs are created equal and all people come by work in the same manner, what can I tell ya? I mean, really, this is so reminiscent of when people talk about how people who are strippers really like to dance is all. Yes, if you don’t see clear demarcations as to who works where and why, you and I are disagreeing. You can think I’m delusional as well.

The three and the five year old may be well behaved and may be able to amuse themselves, but no way can a 10 month old be expected to do that. I have an almost 8 month old daughter, and I can’t get ANYTHING done when she’s awake. Kids that age have the attention span of a gnat, they are JUST BARELY capable of following simple commands. You can’t really tell them “no”. They kind of get it, but not really. Their primary “job” is to explore, touch and taste everything that is near them.

No matter how “good” the baby is, she’s 10 months old and cannot be trusted to sit quietly and do her own thing. The five year old might be able to watch a few television shows. The three year old might be able to amuse herself for 15–20 minute intervals, but a 10 month old—there is NO way.

@keobooks Interesting. I basically said just the opposite.

@JLeslie do you have kids? At 10 months old, they are starting to pull up on things, and constantly exploring. I recently brought my daughter to a friend’s house and I had to CONSTANTLY watch her. Even when I did, she managed to rip up some magazines, knock over a plant, crawled up a few stairs, yanked on an electrical cord, almost knocked her head on a coffee table.. but she got stuck under it instead and I had to lure her out with a cracker.

We didn’t get much of a visit in. I can’t imagine trying to clean a house with her around. I have to wait until she naps or goes to bed to get ANYTHING in the house done.

Your MIL is right, it’s a lawsuit waiting to happen or a tragedy, best not to chance it. I like the idea of you explaining this to her saying you and your husband have worked out an alternative to not having her come anymore which is to keep the kids in one area until the work is done. Keep the animals outside for that duration.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I don’t think you’re delusional. I never said that. We just have a disagreement over what type of work in general is, and isn’t, appropriate/fulfilling for a person to do. Neither of us is morally right or morally wrong in our respective view. I notice you have a habit of inferring statements/beliefs to people that they never said, then criticizing them for saying/thinking it (though they didn’t say it).

Anyway, you’re right that not all jobs are equal. Every type of job is different. Like @rooeytoo said, plumbers have a really filthy disgusting job. Indeed, some jobs are more pleasant than others. So what? Slavery aside, a job is what you do that you can do to eat and pay the rent and buy an occasional video game. In a perfect world we’d all have Farnsowrth Fusors in our basements providing us all with free electricity, and we’d all have 3D printers and robots and automated factories, and nobody would have to work for a living. But that’s a long way off yet…

I worked my way through college as a maid. My sister-in-law is a maid now. Nothing wrong with the profession. I was proud of what I did and my SIL is too. It is hard work. I would have never in a million years considered doing anything like that @BBSDTfamily. That is crazy IMHO.

The women I worked for were sooo very good to me. There were two that I became personal friends with and they invited my husband and me to their house for dinners and parties. One Jewish family I worked for actually bought me a Christmas present and said it was the first time she’s ever done anything like that.

I wasn’t inferior to them is what I’m trying to say. They didn’t treat me that way and I didn’t feel that way either. Yet, I would have never brought children to their homes while I was working anymore than I would have brought children to any other job I’ve had.

There have been jobs where I’ve worked where people, including myself (and other men and women) brought their children under special circumstances and no one batted an eye. But you don’t bring your children to work without prior permission from your employer. Crazy.

@HungryGuy Oh, my love, I know you didn’t say that and I am not mad at anyone or upset. I simply think that you can think me delusional if you want, that is all, I don’t find that offensive. I just recognize that while a job is a job and all jobs must be done, certain jobs are the realm of certain groups of people and while, for some, it’s a lucrative thing and for others it’s a choice to go both into low-paying service jobs or sex workers, it’s not like that for others. I, you can say, roll around many immigrant communities and jobs they will take, sure, but let’s just say ‘back home’ these wouldn’t be the jobs they’d take or were trained to do – my mom, the housekeeper, was a biochemist.
with that, I’ll have to leave for the night, my kid is really sick and I’m exhausted.

@keobooks No, I don’t, I should have said so, I have said it many times on fluther, but I should not assume people know. I have baby sat many babies. What I was thinking was playpen or hopefully the baby would sleep part of the time. If I am way off I stand corrected. Not sure what other mommies would say.

Hmmm..to me the issue is more about 3 children, that s a LOT of children, babies, to be tended to during the mothers working time.

I would say the infant would not be an issue for me, but toddlers and preschoolers cannot be expected to be cooperative, and, I agree with the safety issues as well.

Same with my gardener, if his little boy falls off my deck stairs, or, down the hill ( my deck overhangs a 10 ft. ‘cliff’ ) or, he hurts himself dragging all of my tools out of the garage to ‘play’ with…well…. safety and focus on the job does not include small children IMO.

My house cleaner is my adult grandson’s friend, and she brings her 3 year old son. The grandson and child play in our playroom (along with my toddler grandsons if they are here).

I did object when the professional kitchen remodeler brought his preteen son as an apprentice, during school hours. I reported them to the contractor.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir You’re blowing this WAY out of proportion. There is nothing whatsoever unethical about hiring help. No one has to lower their standards to do so and for you to imply that they do is base snobbery. ‘I can do it all myself and people who can’t… well…” You, not everyone else, seem completely out of touch with reality on this one. People in every profession steal and there’s nothing wrong with wanting someone trustworthy having access to all parts of your home. There was no other way for anyone to take what you said other than exactly the way you said it. Any of it.

@BBSDTfamily I think that limiting them to one room of the house might be your best option, along with asking if there’s anyone she can bring along to watch the kids. I think you need to make it absolutely clear that your dogs are off limits and that the children should not be around them because they’re not used to children they do not know. I know you’re trying to work this out in the best way possible for all concerned because you do indeed see this woman as a human being worthy of respect and yadda yadda whatever people who like to take stands might object to that they prefer to assume you are/aren’t doing. The bottom line is that they can’t go around the house unsupervised and whatever needs to be done to stop that is what needs to happen.

@klutzaroo GA!!

@klutzaroo Man, how am I still up with this sick baby?!
Of course I’m blowing this way out of proportion, so it seems when you don’t want to hear how anything unjust can possibly exist in this world. Of course I’m being too sensitive and snobby (that’s ironic, given the context) and out of touch with “reality”. I disagree with your take on my words but that doesn’t really matter. Clearly @BBSDTfamily was pleased by your answer and I hope found it helpful. In the end, however, I can’t agree that “there is nothing whatsoever unethical about hiring help’ or with assuming that said help will steal. And that, my dear, has nothing to do with whether or not everyone should clean their own house.

Is she a maid or housecleaner?

@BarnacleBill The words are synonyms, but she does basic housework for me a few hours each week.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Ok, so pretend that some of us haven’t heard the argument for hiring help being unethical, or systematic issues, or whatever else it is that’s bugging you. Get up on the soapbox, type out a really long thingy, and get it out. Because right now, all I really know is that you have a problem with it, it has something to do with systematic issues and women and illegal aliens, but I don’t actually know any more than that. Maybe you’ll bring something to my attention, and will change my mind. But please, just get it out, so it’s not like pulling teeth from you and then arguing over it.

In an attempt to diffuse a portion of this discussion, I’m going to attempt to explain what I see going on.

I have a maid that I love- she does a great job and seems very trustworthy. While a true statement, how it is worded can cause a negative reaction. Had it been worded “There is a woman who does an excellent job of cleaning our house. The catch is…”, it might have gone over better.

I don’t know what country you live in, but in the US, where some of us tend to be very politically correct, “I have a maid” and “my maid” can not only imply ownership, but the term ‘maid’ has become somewhat outdated.

I think I understand what you mean by her being trustworthy, but because it is mentioned, it implies that this was a concern on the front end until proven to be so.

I may be way off-base on this, but I think this is might what have been the cause for @Simone_De_Beauvoir‘s response. If not, my apologies to both of you for sticking my nose in it. If it is, can we somehow effectively work through this and go back to solving the problem at hand?

@Pied_Pfeffer I suppose people could take my statement as meaning that her being trustworthy was a concern on the front end until proven otherwise, but why does that matter? Wouldn’t any realistic person be somewhat concerned with inviting a stranger into their house and giving them unsupervised access into every part of it? I have valuables, cash, tax returns, etc. in my home. Nobody else is here when she is here cleaning (well, except for her 3 children). No I didn’t expect that she would be a theif, but it certainly was a possibility and the fact that she puts my mind at ease in that department is one of the reason I like her so much. What is the problem with that? The ugly truth is that there are theives in this world and people should react with caution and carefully choose who to give access to all of their personal things! Housekeepers need to be trustworthy.

My Mum used to do housekeeping for a doctor’s family when I was little (<5). I used to go with her, and play with the children of the family that she worked for. I think they damaged more than I ever did! If you can afford a maid, maybe you can give her a little bit extra for childcare!!

@Harold why should @BBSDTfamily pay for the housekeepers childcare?! Would you say that about a plumber? A handyman? A house painter? I want the maid to be paid a good wage, sounds like she is, but not because she has three children, because she does a good job. She is paid for the job she does.

@all I worry initially about anyone who comes into my house and has access. I put away my jewelry at minimum, and other very expensive things and medications I don’t leave lying around. I don’t tell people who I have hired when I will be out of town, or post it on my facebook. I think 99% of people are honest and not theives. But, the other 1% can get away with a lot. My husband was robbed once, and we believe it was the maids boyfriend possibly. I was robbed once and we think it was a roomates of ours shady friends, she thought it might be also, it was not just us blaming her. In retail, Almost 50% of theft is from the inside. It is not that almost 50% of employees steal, it is that those who steal do it in a big way because they have access.

@MyNewtBoobs Yeah, I don’t take orders from random flutherites. Thanks, though.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I didn’t order you. You certainly don’t have to. But if you don’t explain yourself, then it is up to us to draw our own conclusions – and last time we did that, you got pretty pissy.

I thought @Simone_De_Beauvoir did kind of explain herself? Her mother’s experience is very common, and I can understand why it is frustrating and might feel degrading. I know Engineers who have worked as busboys, and doctors who became secretaries, and dentists who could not work once coming to the US. It is difficult to have all of your education and experience mean nothing in the eyes of a new country. I learned very young you never know who you are talking to. The maid might be a scientist. I have been treated at times like I am an idiot when I was an Exec Asst by people with less education and less work experience than me, because of the position. Winds up usually those people are stupider than average in the end.

@JLeslie I don’t understand how her mother’s experience ends up being an argument to never, ever hire a housecleaner because it would be unethical (what’s inherently unethical about it?). I would think it would be an argument for treating housecleaners like people, giving them respect and dignity and fair conditions, not completely eliminating their job.

@MyNewtBoobs I see. Well, I agree, I feel the job is honorable. But, I can just understand why @Simone_De_Beauvoir feels badly about her mothers situation, and circumstances where immigrants are taken advantage of. Honestly though, I see citizens taken advantage of all of the time also. In the middle of the midwest where the maids at the hotels are white, born here Americans, I have to admit embarrasingly it throws me a little, they are many times underpaid probably just like the immigrants. It is more about the particular position I think. The greed at the top can be really unbelievale to me, how they keep all the money in their pocket. Not the case on this question though.

@BBSDTfamily Wouldn’t any realistic person be somewhat concerned with inviting a stranger into their house and giving them unsupervised access into every part of it? Yes, I agree that this is a true statement.

This is why when a person is in the market for a contractor, they:
1.) Obtain references first
2.) Make sure that they are legal (which you have done), are legitimate/certified, etc., licensed and bonded.
3.) Talk to the insurance company that carries their homeowner policy to find out any possible concerns, like coverage, should something be stolen or broken, or if the contractor is attacked by the owner’s pets.
4.) Put valuables away in a safe place, as @JLeslie points out. Most people trust the contractor from Day 1 or it builds over time, but to leave valuables out, be it documents, money or an object, is just creating temptation. And that is even applicable to house guests, in some cases.
5.) Allow contractors access to their home, knowing that they are bringing along young children that are not there to help and are not properly supervised while the work is being conducted.
6.) Terminate the employment when they discover a problem that they truly believe was caused by the contractor (or the children), and it is denied when brought to light.

@Pied_Pfeffer I agree with you, and I found today that my homeowner’s insurance does cover accidents that would happen with my dogs and my valuables aren’t lying around. But, they are in the obvious places such as jewelry is in a jewelry box, tax returns are in a filing cabinet, etc. Theft is not my concern though, it’s that her children could potentially get into a dangerous situation while they’re unsupervised (what if they’d gotten into something breakable instead of my makeup and cut themselves?) or break something of mine and I just wanted people’s opinion/advice on how to deal with this situation and if I’m taking on too much liability here. Her children are welcome to play with my son’s toys so I’m not sure why they went into the bathroom and got my makeup out to paint with. I want to avoid firing her because I really like her as a person and as a maid, and as I said before I don’t have any solid proof that her children did in fact paint my furniture and I don’t believe in accusing someone of something that you don’t have proof of.

@Pied_Pfeffer I forgot about this- I did leave my camera out on the coffee table one time and later found a 45 minute video on it that the boys had shot (it may have been longer if the battery hadn’t died!) but I figured it was my fault for leaving the camera out and never said anything to her about it. Learned my lesson!

@BBSDTfamily That is not your fault. They should not be playing with your things. It is a lot of work to have to put everything away all of the time, I would hope over time, if someone regularly comes to the house the trust issues would be a non issue. If my children picked up and recorded a video with someone else’s camera without permission I would be furious with them, unnacceptable. It is not about what you should do to avoid getting robbed, more about steps you can take to help protect your things especially when new people are in the house. It would be like saying the gentlemen in the Armani suit deserved to have his Roles stolen at gunpoint, bevause he walked down the street in an ezpensive suit in a bad neighborhood. It is not his fault he was mugged, but probably better not to walk in the ghetto in an expensive suit.

@BBSDTfamily Thank you so much for checking with the insurance company. That should bring a bit of peace to your mind.

It sounds as if you and your husband have very caring hearts. And like so many lessons of life, we learn from experience. Ground rules need to be set between you and the woman when it comes to the children. They need to be agreed upon by both parties. Your idea of designating one room for her children, making it kid-friendly, and include a playpen for the 10 month old should do it…as long as she agrees.

The same goes for allowing the children to play with the dog. You mentioned that you told her that it was unsafe for the children to play with them, and she questioned it. She needs to agree to your request and not just hear it.

Please do not get too soft-hearted in this situation. May I quote you on a few discrepancies here?

They’re well behaved for young children.
1.) “The older children have already painted a white piece of furniture of mine with my make-up (which my maid denies they were ever in that room but I just don’t see how it possibly could have happened otherwise)”
2.) “I did leave my camera out on the coffee table one time and later found a 45 minute video on it that the boys had shot.”

As for their mother:
1.) ”...there is no way she can supervise 3 children as she cleans my house.”
2.) “My dogs are outside in a yard, but she has asked me before why her children can’t go play with them. It makes me worry she’d let them go play with my dogs even though I told her not to.”

If you are concerned about liability, in addition to broken belongings, please consider what you have shared with us. It is beginning to sound like your MIL has a valid point.

Should you decide that it is better for both parties to terminate the employment, it doesn’t mean that the relationship needs to end. You can always help her find a better fit through recommendations that meet her needs. For example, my mother utilizes a cleaning service due to health reasons, but she is still quite capable of supervising her great grandson and is home when the service is there. It might also grow into a friendship between the two of you that might be currently limited by a professional work environment.

Good luck friend, and keep us posted.

@Pied_Pfeffer I see your point… and yes talking to my insurance agent did give me a peace of mind somewhat. And by being well behaved for young children I meant that they are pretty good considering being 5 and 3 and left unattended for so long. Yes they’ve gotten into some mischief, I guess I know some really hyper kids that I was comparing them to though so in my mind what they’ve done isn’t too terribly bad.

Okay, I want to update you on what happened- good news! I had an honest, delicately spoken conversation with her and she has agreed to get her friend to watch her children when she comes to clean (since she wants to pick up more houses, she said she has been needing to do this anyway). But, when they do end up coming with her then they will only play in my son’s room (already kid-friendly environment) and they are not to even go on the back porch anymore (our pitbull can jump the porch gate, and even though he’s very sweet I just don’t think that’s a smart situation nor am I blind to the possibilities that could happen). I will not bypass the alarm on that outside door, so if they ever do go out there against my orders I will know because she’ll have to call me for the alarm code! I think this is going to work out and everyone’s advice has helped SO much!

@JLeslie Thank you so much for your kind words. I definitely see what you mean in your analogy. It was one of those situations where I think I would’ve been justified in saying something to the mother about the video camera, but since I like her so much I just weighed it out and decided it wasn’t worth it. Now if the camera had been broken, you bet I would have been angry and brought it up…. maybe have even asked her to replace it. Luckily no harm was done and hopefully with our new arrangement (see my comment above to Pied Pfeffer) things will be better! I am so happy. :)

@JLeslie – Not saying she should, just that if she likes the maid so much it may be one option if she wants to keep her. Definitely NOT her responsibility to do so.

@BBSDTfamily Oh good. I am so glad it worked out. This was a good Q. People came up with some great ideas, limiting the children to one room, and pointing out there has been more than one incident. I was going to write, before I saw this update, that her kids must be sneaky, which could be a problem. When I said if my kids played with someone’s camera I would be angry, I mean if I were the maid, not if I were you. So either the maid has bad judgement about what is acceptable to play with, or her kids did it behind her back.

@BBSDTfamily – Speaking of cameras, here’s an idea. Put a few NannyCams around the house…

@Simone_De_Beauvoir By saying all jobs are not created equal, aren’t you saying this profession is below others?

I do not own a maid, I hire someone to help clean. I also do not own my teacher, my gardener, my mechanic, my dentist, my husband, my neighbor. That is a common way to refer to people know.

Were do you draw your ethical line? Are trash collectors, gardeners, construction workers, janitors, carpet cleaners, car washers, wait staff, snow plow drivers, dog walkers, flight attendants, recycling sorters, etc acceptable jobs? All of these professions are in the service industry and several of them can be done by people who have no specialized skills. Is it ethical to pay for these services? Which ones? I really can’t find the logic.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I know plenty about the lack of justice in the world. However, I don’t go around making a point to pitch a fit about it, lecturing people on and about things that they’re probable not doing. Instead I try to actually do something about it rather than spending loads of time sitting here typing and getting into online arguments that do nothing really to further any cause.

If you can’t admit that people have to prove that you can trust them, if you don’t agree with the concept that some people steal and the fact that most people would rather not have someone that is dishonest in their home then you are sorely out of touch with anything other the reality you’re trying to get everyone else to see which has little to do with the one that everyone else is living in.

Do you really think, really think, that hiring help is more unethical than not doing so when you have the means to gainfully employ others in an economy where its nearly impossible to gain employment and make a living? Seriously? There is nothing, I repeat nothing, whatsoever about employing someone to do work for you. Not even in a convoluted little world all about how people do wrong to others. You do it all the time. So next time you go to the grocery store and pay someone to check you out or the next time that you call someone to fix… well, anything, treat them to a lecture on how what you’re doing is unethical but you’re doing it anyway because you need food and you can’t repair your whatever yourself.

If you are paying fair pay and withholding taxes on what you pay her, then she should not be bringing her children with her to work, any more than any other person should expect to be able to bring their children to the office.

When I had a housecleaner, I paid her $120 to clean a 2300 square foot house with two bathrooms. She cleaned my house and two others in one day. At over $300 a day in income, she could afford child care.

@BarnacleBill Makes me want to clean a few houses on the side. That’s not bad!

She was awesome! I’ve paid less and was not as happy. It was one of those things—was I paying for a well-cleaned house or to have someone at my house for X hours? It was not up to me to say how long it should take to get the house clean. She went back to college and is a nurse now.

@Supacase No that is not what I’m saying. Clearly, a doctor is treated differently in our society than is a maid or people wouldn’t be talking about how trustworthy they find the latter. @klutzaroo I wasn’t lecturing. Perceive it as you like. I was stating that (and I’m not going to repeat myself for the millionth time) that there are real disparities between who gets to be maids and who gets to do the hiring and this has little to do with the very paternalistic notion of ‘providing gainful employment’ (nice way to dress it up, though). Once again, the act of cleaning or doing gardening is just as ‘noble’ as any other job. But there is nothing noble about a society where the only future for some people as way to make a living are these particular jobs. I suppose I am very sensitive to recognizing certain patterns. When here in Park Slope (a relatively well off neighborhood for young whites, for the most part) all the nannies are black, there is a reason and plenty of people have noted it.

What is the reason @Simone_De_Beauvoir?

@bkcunningham Oh, with all the engaging feedback on this thread, I’d rather not get into the whole ‘systemic racism doesn’t exist’/‘yes it does’ back and forth, please. The text above that I recommended is a good read to explain it.

Oh, sorry. I didn’t see the link. I was serious and didn’t want to engage in an argument. I just wanted to learn. I’ll look.

@bkcunningham Thank you. And yeah sorry, I just shouldn’t have talked at all on this thread.

The link I just read is a review by Michelle Goldberg in Salon about the book “Global Women.” The critical, and somewhat harse review is interesting in light of the above back and forth discussion between yourself and others here (I wasn’t involved in that btw). ;( Anyway, that’s okay. I always enjoy reading your point of view.

@bkcunningham Yeah, I thought it was interesting to link up the review as well. I loved the book.

I’m going to look for the book. We have a fantastic used book store here with a vast social and political section. If not there; the library. Thanks @Simone_De_Beauvoir. Very interesting.

@Supacase and @klutzaroo – How I wish I could you 100 Great Answers to both your answers above!

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – If what you’re upset about is that some people do scut jobs because everybody doesn’t have the same educational opportunities, what more (as a society) can we do? We have affirmative action programs. We have scholarships specifically for women and minorities. We have charities for underprivileged children to attend college and university (Believe it or not, I give to such charities). We have inexpensive continuing education programs for adults through such programs as BOCES. We have social safety nets (that scumbag Republicans are trying desperately to tear down) for people who are stuck in dead-end jobs like that. What more can we do? If you have some constructive advice instead of sounding all snobbish and holier-than-thou, please inform us…

@HungryGuy I don’t understand why I, all of a sudden, have to provide the blanket solution for educational disparities when the question was about hiring maids and I believe we agree that some people end up having to be maids and some people don’t. Affirmative action hasn’t worked as well as you think it has but that’s another conversation. Scholarships are limited and college is simply not an option for many people regardless of scholarships, same for continuing ed. And why are you calling being a maid a ‘dead end job’ – I thought you believed this is a great job that people who like cleaning do. Anyway, I don’t get why I have to be called snobbish for pointing out what’s true. And I know a couple of people have an issue with what I’m saying but it’s hard to face one’s privilege, I get that and I’m not mad at ya’ll.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Okay. Then don’t explain yourself. But then don’t get all snooty when nobody else has a clue what you’re talking about or can see the injustice that’s so obvious to you.

I admit to being lost, too. So not everyone in the world (or at least in the US) has opportunities to be a nuclear physicist or Wall Street CEO or whatever. College and continuing ed are not available for a lot of people. I am not a cleaning lady but nor am I a nuclear physicist either. Some who become cleaning people may be illegal immigrants who need to make some money off the books, at least for a while, or maybe for long term. My coworker told me once his high school teacher used to say “the world needs ditch diggers, too.” In other words, if you don’t do well, you may end up digging ditches.

Should I tell my cleaning lady, who is from Brazil and trying to support two children, (and who, by the way, makes not a bad chunk of change cleaning compared to if she worked for McDonald’s or Walmart) “I am not going to use you any more because the world is unjust and having you work for me is unethical?” Or should everyone be given free college educations (maybe our tax rates will go up to 75% but at least we’ll be leveling the playing field) so that all have access to similar opportunities?

I’m a little lost as well, but I’ll say this. I agree with @Simone_De_Beauvoir in that it wasn’t a coincidence that the various “help” my family had growing up (a gardener, an odd job guy, and an occasional house-cleaner) were all Hispanic. It was due to A) we lived in the Bay Area where there are many Hispanics and B) Hispanics in the Bay Area tend to be in the lower-income range and service jobs like that are lower-income.

I doubt so many jobs like that were occupied by Hispanics because Hispanics just love doing things like that (although I’m sure some of them do), it most likely has more to do with the fact that those are the only jobs they can get.

As for whether or not I think it’s ethical, that’s an entirely different question.

@DominicX and @Simone_De_Beauvoir I agree there are probably more minorities working in the service/labor field but I do not think that means it is unethical to give someone in that field a job. It’s not like we would be helping the situation or corrupting people by giving them jobs- they want and deserve jobs too. You’ll never here someone say, “Wow if she wouldn’t have offered me a job in the service field, I may be a doctor by now!”. (Dominicx I know this is basically the same thing you just said). As for my particular situation, I am white and so is my maid. Race has nothing to do with my question.

When my ancestors came to the USA they were penniless. The males worked on farms as laborers until they accumulated enough money to buy their own piece of land and then they farmed their own land and were still penniless. But they were proud and happy to be able to feed the family. Why is cleaning someone’s house different?

I think this is going overboard on the politically correct, don’t take advantage of the immigrants, etc. I personally don’t want to pay more taxes so the government can support more people who could be making their own way being something less than a brain surgeon.

By the way, I have been in the dog business since I tired of the “corporate ratrace” and I have been boarding, handling, grooming and picking up poop after rich and poor people’s dogs, is that demeaning to me and were they taking advantage of me by paying me, again less than brain surgeon salaries??? I don’t think so!

@BBSDTfamily Actually that’s not what I said. What I said was that I doubt most people who do low-income service work like this do it for any other reason than because its the only type of job they can get. Otherwise, I agree with everything else you said.

@ Dominicx Oh okay I see what you were saying now, and I agree with you too!

I would much rather work providing a service than have to sit behind a desk and stare at a computer screen all day, even if it meant being paid less. I like being active and on my feet when I work. And where is this job working as a housekeeper for $25 an hour? I’ll take it! With that type of money I can pay for after school care for my daughter and have the money to do the things I enjoy doing when I’m not working. A job does not need to define who you are.

@jonsblond I don’t pay by the hour, I pay by the job but $25/hour is what it usually comes out to for the amount of time it takes her. If you ever move to MS, call me for a job :)

@jonsblond Yeah, I’ll pay $20 am hour. I pay $20 for yard work also. You can stay with me, see Elvis, help me clean and fix up my yard, talk. I am half serious, if you ever want to see Memphis. I need a girlfriend to talk to while I clean and I need to do some organizing also.

@jonsblond Thank you! You have just described the sentiments of my SO, who, if you were to ask him what he does for a living, would tell you that he walks around in circles all day. (He works on a production line and has held the same job for 25 years.) Intellectually, he could walk circles around many of my friends, but has chosen to stay in the same job because it pays enough to cover the bills and put some aside. He also likes the fact that he can go home after a shift and not work or worry about The Job after hours.

If or when I go back to work, the first job I would consider is being a house-cleaner or hotel room attendant despite having been a director for a hotel company in the last position held. I happen to like cleaning for others and do not view it as a step down, other than the pay. To me, the benefits of a flexible schedule and being able to turn off the job when off the clock outweigh the perks and shouldering of the responsibilities that I used to have. Plus, I now sleep through the night without the daily nightmares that used to come with a management position.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Touche! Okay. You don’t really “own” a maid, and there’s no such thing as a “dead end” job. For example, I used to know a guy who was a cleaning guy in my office building making minimum wage (I think he was Hispanic or Filipino, but I’m not sure. I’m not a good judge of people’s ethnicities, and it’s not relevant anyway). After a few years, he went into business for himself and now owns a small business cleaning office buildings. He owns a small fleet of trucks, employs about two dozen people, and is quite well off. So in that regard, there are no “dead-end” jobs, just depends on how ambitious and smart one is.

Now, I don’t mean to flame you; I respect many of your views and agree with many of your answers, but you sometimes come across as a bit, well, er, uhm, arrogant. On some topics, you take the attitude, “I’m right, and everyone else is wrong, and that should be obvious to everyone without explanation, and so there’s no point in discussing it because you either agree with me or you’re ignorant.” I know you never actually said that, and probably don’t intend to come across like that, but that’s how you come across sometimes.