If you wear a bra, do you wish you didn't have to anymore?

Are you kidding me? Sometimes wearing clothes bothers me!

Bras are just very uncomfortable to me. I wish I never had to wear one.

For once, I agree with you, @Simone_De_Beauvoir. It’s a hyporcitical double-standard.

@noelleptc That’s the first thing on my list when I get rich and famous!

I would love nothing more than to never have to wear a bra again.

Very much so. I’ve been wearing a bra since I was 11.

My girls are just too big not to, they need that support when out in public instead of bouncing all over the place. But boy can’t wait to rip the thing off when I get home!!!!

I wear one mostly because I don’t like bouncing around and I am not that big. But when it gets too hot or I am not doing anything bouncy, then I don’t and I don’t much care what anyone thinks. Now I don’t go without if I am wearing anything tight, clingy or transparent, but since I never wear that kind of stuff anyhow it’s not a big impediment.

I just wish someone could design a bra that is really comfortable especially to wear in hot, humid weather. I see men’s underwear made of dri-fit and the other wonder fabrics but can’t find bras or women’s underpants made of it.

Thank you for sharing this article and bringing up the topic. I’ve been pondering it since this question was posted two days ago. After reaching out privately to a few male Jellies for their candid opinion on women going bra-less, it helped me put my feelings into words. Here it is:

As a female, I prefer to go bra-less. However, the only time I do so is in the privacy of my own home and when no one else will be around, unless it is my partner. The reason I don’t go bra-less in public, or when others are in my house, is two-fold: 1.) I don’t want to have people who might say, think it morally wrong not to wear one; and 2.) I don’t want to stimulate male hormones.

It’s a shame really. Breasts, in many cultures, are viewed as sexual objects instead of a natural feature of every female’s body. They are exploited in pornography, and in some cases, in the fashion media. I wonder if people were brought up to not give a thought about a woman going bra-less, would it still be such a turn-on for men?

Eh, I gave up on bras and wear and extra tank or undershirt in situations that would usually demand a bra.

Nice post though. I just heard of Andre earlier this week when a tumblr I stumbled across busted some heads over a condescending blurb regarding gender bending models in general and Andre in particular.

@fundevogel If I tried an extra tank, the nipples still show through as mine are big and pointy, I guess. And I find it disturbing how much my nipples provoke people. Nice link, interesting stuff.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir They make stick on pasties you can wear under your shirt for that. They’re reasonably effective, though I don’t know that I’d want to wear them everyday.

@fundevogel Dude, I’m trying to get away from uncomfortable here. I am not sticking anything anywhere and besides, my nipples are pierced and I don’t need my piercings rubbing up against questionable shit like pasties.

I’m too big to go bra-less for long. When I am bra-less and they rest on my ribs I tend to sweat and I can’t stand that.

For the first time in my life I started wearing tank tops in the summer…the kind with a shelf bra. It took that long for me to feel comfortable with how my breasts look outside a bra. I hate having anyone gape at them but I’ve been more able to handle that kind of behaviour with a certain “whatever” attitude.

I actually love wearing a bra. I’ve never had an issue with it. I only take it off when I shower…I even sleep with it on because I find it comfortable (and I’m not large chested)

People are ridiculous about boobs. They limit breastfeeding in public in some places, and just recently made an age limit in a state park because breastfeeding past 2 there is considered “nudity” which is ridiculous!

Now why, @Simone_De_Beauvoir, would you pierce your nipples? Nipples…those things that are attached to your mammary glands that our society so stupidly turned into sex objects? A sentiment that I agree with, actually. Just wondering…Why your nipples?

I never wear a bra at home. If company unexpectedly shows up, I put one on because I don’t like to see flopping body parts on other people, so they shouldn’t have to see them on me. Perhaps that’s just me.

Also, if I get ready to do something strenuous, like yard work or moving a household, I put on a bra because when them things get to flopping around they can kind of get to get to hurtin’. And they can get in the way unexpectedly. And my clothes look WAAAAY better on me when I have a bra on. I’m glad someone invented the damn things.

I curse the day bras were invented.

If bras were not invented I’d have 2 black eyes when I go running so they’re ok for activity. It’s the second thing to come off when I hit my front door – right after shoes.
So, practically speaking, they have a purpose but I don’t care if someone chooses not to wear one. Over half the population has breasts. They aren’t that mysterious.

@gabbypotterrr You curse the day bras were invented, or the day nature decided “W00T! I’m going to give Homo Sapien women the appearance of heavily nursing females, 24 / 7, till the day they die!” Just because something was invented doesn’t mean you have to use it. But, in this case, you might look really, really sloppy without that particular “invention”, depending on your size.

@Blueroses LOL! No mystery at all! It’s called crowd control for about half the population!

@Simone_De_Beauvoir They aren’t uncomfortable, they’re just silicone. They don’t feel like anything when they’re on, they certainly don’t come anywhere near the discomfort a bra can give. Though I suppose they may not sit properly if you’re wearing nipple jewelry.

Yes, I hate wearing a bra, any bra. If my boobs would stay in place on their own and not need any support or stretch out anything then that would be ideal. I could work on myself to stop disliking and being self conscious of nipplage.

@Neizvestnaya I don’t like them either. I don’t like Ace bandages either especially in Summer. But they do serve a purpose…..my boobs won’t stay in place by themselves and a bra is better than an Ace bandage. (Who invented the bra, anyway? God bless her!)

Women wear bras for support and to hide THO (titty-hard-ons)

Some women like wearing bras, others don’t.

Some bras are comfy, others aren’t- Some women HAVE to wear bras because they have huge boobs and it hurts their fronts and backs not to.

But the bottom line is if we didn’t we would sag to our knees by the age of 40 which would be less comfortable. Also excercising without one is painful, the bouncing hurts.

I have switched to cotton leisure bras that hook in the front. These work also if you have breasts that are almost two different sizes. Here

I believe that Howard Hughes invented the bra for Jayne Russell (I’m doing this from memory).

GA, @AmWiser,...but now I wonder…men get THO (we called it RN in college) as much as women…why don’t they feel the need to hide it?

@gailcalled Well, now I’m off to research the origin of The Bra!

@Dutchess_III – keep us apprised of your quest, that is interesting stuff. I just assumed bras had been around forever, had no idea Howard Hughes was involved, that wasn’t that long ago, what did women use before that???

I remember hearing, when I was younger, that Otto Titzling invented the bra. Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be true which is too bad because I believed it for many years. I think it’s even the answer on a Trivial Pursuit card.

I hate having to wear a bra. Sometimes it’s slightly more comfortable since I have such large breasts, but for the most part, it’s just irritating, and my breasts are sore as hell when I finally unleash them after strapping them in a bra for hours.

I do get a break for a few days though. With my new side tat that I got on Monday, I’ve been going mostly braless, to keep from accidentally rubbing the tat with my bra.

In principle, yes, I wish I didn’t have to wear a bra by society’s standards. Like the article said, it’s pretty arbitrary that women’s chests are “obscene” and men’s aren’t. Breasts seem to be sexualized by some societal standard rather than for any sensical reason. I really wish that all meaningless arbitrary discrepancies in treatment between the sexes could be removed.

Personally, I’m fine with needing to wear a bra – even though I’m extremely small chested, for some reason it feels somewhat uncomfortable if I am even mildly active while braless. But in principle, I don’t think I should have to wear one if I don’t want to! For the record, I feel the same way towards makeup – just another random standard applied to women that men for some reason don’t have to uphold.

@AmWiser There is no evidence to suggest that bras have any positive long term effect on the sagginess of breasts over time. They lift while they’re on, but that’s about extent of their effect on boobs. Well, I say that but there is some indication that wearing bras can cause boobs to sag more once they’re out of a bra because it allows the ligaments that would normally bear the weight of the breast to atrophy as the bra moves the weight to the shoulder.

Clearly more studies need to be done.

Source (contains images of women’s boobs…so maybe NSFW according to the standards Simone was lamenting)

^^ Just makes you wonder….If men had to wear bra’s all of our standards would be different.

I don’t want my breasts to sag to the ground, so a bra helps keep them from being pulled down by gravity. Damage to the tissues that helps keep our breasts up do not repair once stretched, it is not like a muscle that can be worked back into shape. I do skip the bra when I am at home, but out I always wear one and don’t really mind. Especially for exercising I wear a sports bra. In the winter sometimes I wear a sweatshirt with no bra out, but rarely. If I was still a b cup like when I was younger I would go without a bra much more often.

When I’m working out I have to wear a sports bra to stay comfortable. But otherwise, I would prefer never to wear one. Society’s reactions to breasts just generally suck.

1) It’s only okay to be bare-chested around other people in a sexual context.
2) If you’re “hot” and go bra-less, guys will take it as an open invitation to stare
3) If you fall outside the narrow standards of beauty and go bra-less, you’re a slob.

I wish I could go without a bra at work. I can opt out of all the other uncomfortable women’s fashion that I want, like high heels and skirts. But there’s no way I could show up at work without a bra. I can see it now- customers would complain by dancing around the issue, trying not to actually say the word “breast” or “bra.” Then my boss would pull me aside and have a very uncomfortable and awkward talk about appropriate workplace attire.

I’m not wearing a bra right now. BOOYAH.

Yes and no. I’m pretty sure not wearing a bra would garner me unwanted attention, but it would be more comfortable. Luckily, I spend most of my time at home where I’m bra free.
Almost forgot, I do go braless in public when I’m wearing certain tops, but other than that, I were one.

I most certainly wish I didn’t have to.

You mean a manssiere? Nope, never wore one..

Oh, how I wish I could get away with not wearing one. I loathe them. I never wear one at home, and rip it off the moment I’m able to after being out. The only time I’d find it helpful would be for exercising (which I don’t really do, so…). I wish to hell I could at least get away with a tank or cami with a shelf bra, but that ain’t happening. I’m a G cup.

Speaking from a guys prospective, I frankly don’t mind one way or the other if you’re wearing a bra. In fact on the smaller chested girls sometimes I think it looks stupid (if you don’t need the support you really don’t have to waste your time with it sometimes). I also think make-up by in large is not helping, and could care less for the most part if girls stopped wearing it all together.

BUT keep in mind that we boys are very big fans of boobs. If you go bra-less, don’t get pissed at us when you’re getting more attention…. its in our nature and we can’t help it. (Especially in random passing on the street)

I don’t like wearing a bra. They make me sweaty and uncomfortable. I never wear one at home, but I do often wear a camisole with a shelf bra just for that little added support. I’ll always wear a bra when I go out, though, just to keep things reined in.

I don’t feel like I have to wear a bra. I am around a C cup (not massive but not tiny) and I often go without a bra. No one has ever made me feel like I shouldn’t be out in public without a bra.There are times when I bra makes a garment look more flattering but, in general, I really like going without a bra.

Regardless of how I feel about this, I do wish that other women felt as happy as I do when letting their boobs go uncaged in public.

@Dutchess_III I have a lot of body parts pierced, no big. @Blueroses Yes, exersize is the exception, for me, obviously because it’s about function not what’s ‘appropriate’.

The way society draws the line on loose/free breasts is if they’re small and or firm enough to go without then it’s deemed sexy or edgy. If the breasts are large enough or wobble enough then they appear matronly or likened to udders instead of celebrated sex toys and most people find it obscene to see those kind loosed, hanging, swinging, etc. Society tells us if you’re pert and girlish then the world is your oyster but once you become womanly, matronly then get the hell out of the public eye. I don’t like it but it’s been that way since I was a child and I don’t see it changing significantly anytime soon.

@tedd Yes, you can help it. I don’t mean to generalize but it’s cultural. For example, generally speaking Asian men simply don’t check out white women in the same numbers so they never look at me in that devouring way. If a whole race can do that, you can too. And I resent the whole ‘if you do x, be prepared for y because we’re animals’ philosophy.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Pop quiz, a woman drops a pen and has a SLIGHTLY low cut shirt on. She bends over to pick up the pen and a guy is sitting in front of her. If he is unaware that we are watching and this is staged… he will instinctually look at the woman’s cleavage as she bends over. They have scientifically proven this.

I can vouch for it as many times, especially riding the bus in college, I would suddenly realize I was looking at random womens’ chests without even thinking about it. Regardless of race, age, physical attractiveness, etc.

It happens, and a bra-less woman would be much more likely to catch my sub-conscious attention. Deal with it.

(And frankly I resent you trying to act like I can control my own human instincts that happen as naturally as breathing)

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I was thinking the same thing; I resent the hell out of that statement.

@tedd Deal with it? WTF? Just because you’re a man, does not entitle you to say that ALL men stare at boobs, consciously or sub-consciously. The men who frequently look at tits instead of faces are nothing but pigs. How do I know this? I LOVE COCK. I don’t catch myself staring at dicks when I’m out. I don’t find myself accidentally looking at a guy’s cock while I’m grocery shopping, clothes shopping, at my daughters’ gymnastics classes, in line at the bank, or whatever. I stare at cocks when my hubby is naked or when my hubby and I are watching porn together. Other than that, I might admire overall physique, but I don’t focus on a particular area, unless it’s the eyes.

If you have such a huge problem with randomly staring at boobs, then that’s all on YOU, and not the women you’re ogling. YOU deal with it, since it’s your problem.

I hate those camisoles with the extra support sewn in. Interesting to me so many people here like them.

@WillWorkForChocolate @Simone_De_Beauvoir @tedd I don’t think I care if they look for a moment. I really care if they touch. I mean obsessively oggling my tits or ass means I am not going to be interested in that guy, he is obviously too obsessed visually, impolite, bad social manners, and immature. Even I admire a woman’s beautiful body, but it is a moment, something I might notice if she is stunning, but I am not trying to peak down her shirt or up her skirt, that is a different thing. I am never trying to catch a glance at a naked part or an undergarment on women or men. I find that icky.

This idea that men can’t control themselves means the religions that think women should be all covered up, because men cannot control themselves are right. I refuse to accept that.

@JLeslie Agreed. 100%. If we go by the ignorant statement “men are men and just can’t help it”, then we may as well be walking around in burquas and hijabs.

@tedd Oh, well if they have “scientifically proven this”, it MUST be OKAY – same with random pop scientists showing difference in gender based on shoddy research and sensationalized media claims or crap they find about squirrels and pigs, better yet. Perhaps he will look if his eyes happened to be right there as she was bending down since breasts are sexualized and you’re raised to think that to get a glimpse is to score, pathetically but if you didn’t validate every move of yours by relying on limited evidence (read Brain Storm by Rebecca Jordan Young), it’d be better for everyone. Look, I’m queer and a very sexual being, I check out lots of people but it’s not because I simply can not not check them out. Please, give yourself more credit. You are more than the supposed instincts you think you have.

@WillWorkForChocolate @Simone_De_Beauvoir I find it rather ironic that in a thread about how many women don’t like bra’s and find them to be stupid and forced on them and restricting something natural about them…..... You are insulting me and a basic instinct in all men everywhere… as being gross and wrong.

And frankly if I’m a pig for subconsciously and uncontrollably glancing at breasts, then every man is. I’ve talked to men of all ages (including nice little old men), and they have concurred my experiences with their own. Hell the eleven year old autistic boy I tutor looks at the breasts of his female tutors in the same manner, we talked about it in our last meeting.

Its not like we’re oggling them, or even intentionally doing it. Its not like I’m walking the streets with my head tilted down so I can check out the tits as I go by. It just happens. And yah ok you aren’t walking around checking out dudes packages, but first off you’re assuming that guys and girls run of the exact same set of hormones and physical turn-ons and instincts, which is most definitely not the case. I also enjoy a nice romantic movie now and then, but I didn’t cry at the end of the Notebook. And you’re also comparing breasts, something that are very visable, and in many cases flaunted by women with much less self respect… to something hidden away in pants for the most part. Hell I have had more than one female friend point out to me that they liked seeing guys in gym shorts at the gym, because sometimes you could catch the outline of their junk.

Yes, I instinctively, without thinking, and uncontrollably as if I were breathing, will glance at breasts, especially those which are “on-display” in any given day. I do not think less of myself (or any other man who does this, so EVERY other man), nor am I remotely ashamed.

The only way I could totally avoid it, is if I went through every day when I was walking about continuously thinking to myself don’t look down, don’t look at breasts, no cleavage as if I were telling myself to hold my breath. And I’m sorry at some point my concentration would break. If this offends you, maybe you should take it up with god, or evolution, or whatever higher power you believe in if any.

@JLeslie Not being able to “control” a natural reflex to look at cleavage, and not being able to control myself, are two entirely different things.

@tedd As a feminist, I do not believe in insulting men as single group or any one specific gender and I would never say men are wrong and gross, so don’t put words in my mouth. I did not call you a pig and men aren’t pigs. I do not understand your anger in my direction since I have never shamed you. On the contrary, I encourage you to think more of yourself than you do. I also understand that as a man in _this_society, you have been raised to think you’re entitled and excused to look at women’s body parts. I get that, you can’t turn it off but you can be cognizant as to why it happens and push beyond those articles that yell all about how you’re just so inherently made.

@tedd I agree. I said in the beginning a glance is fine, touching is not. Oggling is a different thing. I was not accusing you, except maybe about the trying to get a glance down a shirt.

It is not all instinctual, some of it is learned. American obsess about boobs, most other countries the men seemed obsessed with woman’s assess. They are socialized by the culture they live in.

Just because something is statistically normal does not make it normal. Over half of America is overweight, it does not make overweight normal.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I don’t for one second think I am entitled to look at women’s body parts. But I think calling me out for pointing out that men reflexively will glance and look at cleavage, without even realizing it….. is just not right.

@JLeslie I can assure you that guys here have the same reflexive/instinctual thing when it comes to looking at a girls butt. We look, we glance, we can’t help it. If I notice myself looking down at someone butt or chest in public, I will correct myself and stop looking. But I, and for that matter no other man who isn’t actively concentrating on it, cannot stop my built in instinctual urge/reflex to look when something is there. It is natural. I won’t argue with you that a lot of mens obsession with breasts is permeated thanks to society, but the reflexive act of just looking can be found all the way down to tribes of people living in huts in the rain forest.

@tedd I am glad that you don’t think so, I think a lot of men do though they will deny it. I didn’t call you out for that, I called you out for making this our problem and saying it’s justified because science says so. Science can say very little on these matters because evo psych research is generally a bunch of crap, since no control groups exist.

@tedd “I can’t help it” and “We can’t help it” are total cop-outs. That would be the same as me saying, “I smoke, but I can’t help it”. Bullshit. I’m doing something about it right now, and I’m on day 3 without smoking. “I can’t help it” is the cowards way of saying “I’m too fucking lazy to make myself stop.”

I cannot bring myself to believe that men are wired to look at women’s bodies. Studies may have been done in the US, but all that tells us is that American society is focused on appearance.

Instinct and reflex are about survival. Drooling over tits is not.

@Seelix Well put. I’m putting your last line as my status on FB.

I can imagine that looking at women’s bodies might be a male instinct in the sense that people of any sex are evolutionarily programmed to seek healthy mates (I think we can agree that that is generally true, even if much of evolutionary psychology is a little “out there” – this tenant seems pretty basic). Analyzing a potential mate’s body might give some indications to their health. Healthy weight, healthy-appearing skin, etc. I could accept that men instinctually look for these things.

What I can’t accept is the enormous emphasis placed on breasts, and the sexualization of breasts. Healthy-looking breasts might indicate that offspring will receive good early nutrition, but that is really the only reason I can imagine why a man would be evolutionarily programmed to look at breasts. I really don’t think this is a big enough factor to result in some universal phenomenon in which sneaking peeks at women’s cleavage is eternally burned into the male psyche. And there is no good reason why breasts should be considered “sexual” body parts in the same way that genitals are.

The “boys will be boys” line used to excuse all inappropriate male behavior, strikes again!!!

Hey, I like a nice pair of tits more than some men and I certainly do not HAVE to look. I’ll take a glance then realize it’s not polite to stare and I that I have the choice to look away.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I didn’t say it was your problem, and frankly I don’t see how guys reflexively looking towards your chest is a problem to begin with. Worst case scenario they are admiring some physical beauty you have, is that awful? Breasts can’t be admired? And more than likely, they’re just having a twitch reflex to look because for some reason your breasts stand out. I’m not talking about guys that just BLAMO stare at your breasts.

@WillWorkForChocolate Well I’m sorry you think its a cop out, but it for fact is not.

@Seelix Your point aside, there are many instinctive and reflexive things our bodies do to procreate. Do you think for example I can fully control an erection? Can you control your own genitals reactions to arousal? You can’t tell me you’ve never accidentally looked down at a dudes ass as he walked by (if you want to know why its because instinctively if he has a tighter/more fit ass he will be better at thrusting). The same thing happens with guys, we unknowingly and uncontrollably will take a glance at a woman’s physical attributes. And I’m not talking about “drooling over tits.” A dude just staring at your tits and drooling is not at all what I’m talking about.

@Mariah I largely agree with your post. I can assure you though this reflexive glancing is not limited to breasts, it also includes at the very least butts, as I have caught myself looking at least a few times.

@rooeytoo Boys will be boys =/= Genetic built in reflex.

@tinyfaery AMEN

@JLeslie: I also detest the shelf bra tops. Unless you have bolt-ons then you get smooshed boobs.

@tedd Ah yes, now we’re in the whole ‘why can’t you appreciate when someone is clearly complimenting your beauty when they stare at your breasts’ phase, great. No thanks.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir That’s not even me, I was just saying that’s the worst case scenario (and I mean honestly, if they’re not ogling you, how big of a crime is that really? Should they just not notice you at all? Ignore your existence? What if I meet someone who takes offense when I look at her feet? You want to change things with how sexualized breasts are… then why are you reinforcing the sexualization of them by getting offended by it? ). In my case, and I would assume most guys, its just reflex.

I am female and I find breasts very attractive. But, there are several other lady parts I find equally attractive. I find it rude to stare at anyone’s features. Should we walk around with our eyes shut? No, of course not. It’s hard not to notice a beautiful physical trait on a person, but I do not stare at it.

The problem is the prolonged staring and the frequency at which this happens to women. And, yes, I’d find it offensive if someone was staring longingly at my feet. Sexualized or not, it feels intrusive…and, well, rather creepy. The way some men look at women ..ugh, it’s just disgusting.

If I ever see a man get whacked upside the head by a woman he’s drooling over ..I think I’m going to say to myself, “It’s just reflex” and walk away.

@tedd Why do you resign to hyperbole? Why is it either stare at my breasts or ignore my existence? I think it’s kind of ridiculous to say that by being offended about something one just reinforces the concept, don’t you? How would change ever happen if every person simply ignored everything that bothers them, systemically? You have got to get out of the ‘blame the victim’ mentality here. Honestly.

@PluckyDog If he’s staring and drooling, by all means hit them, thats totally different from what I’m talking about.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Blame the victim? WTF are you talking about? NO ONE IS A VICTIM HERE

@tedd – “Boys will be boys =/= Genetic built in reflex” = typical male excuse for inappropriate behavior. You have a brain, use it and it can override your reflexes. If it did not, I assume you would be ravishing every female you see in order to make sure the species does not die out.

@rooeytoo My brain is the thing that notices when I glance at something and makes me look up and not just stare. The initial reflex is unavoidable unless I am actively concentrating to not look…. but I think it would be a bigger issue if I just walked around all day thinking to myself “Don’t look at boobs, don’t look at boobs.” Look you may not believe me, but what I’m telling you is the truth. It is very much reflexive. I’ve asked probably half a dozen guys since this thread started and they all agreed with me and reaffirmed what I do… “they’ll glance and realize they are and then look away”.

@tedd Your kind of thought process is the same that shows up when women are raped and all people can say is ‘she did it to herself via her clothing, her behavior, she drank, was out late, didn’t say no enough times, etc.’ – that’s what ‘blaming the victim’ is called…if one is exhausted, like me, of being verbally and visually harassed on the streets, in the subways, at work and you are the one telling me that if only I stopped caring, it would go away (I wish), you’re the one blaming the victim rather than really seeing what goes on. At this point, I see nothing can help you see that reflexes are one thing and interaction with people is another, so what else can I say? Let’s just leave it

@Simone_De_Beauvoir WTF are you talking about?

Did you seriously just compare guys reflexively looking towards breasts and butts for a split second or a moment….... to RAPE ???? Blaming the woman??!?!? Are you friggin kidding me???

If you’re getting verbally harassed, that’s not a reflexive thing now is it? Because I have to think to myself about it and then actually formulate the words in my head and then say them. that is not what I’m talking about ........ Me glancing towards you momentarily, and my glance being involuntarily directed towards your chest… is not visually or verbally harassing you, nor does it make you a victim…..... and nor is it equatable with rape. I can’t even believe I’m debating this.

@tedd Hi, no I didn’t just compare starting at breasts to rape. If you need to reread what I wrote again, please do so. I consider constant stares at every part of my body by dozens of men each day (who find this reflex to be unproblematic even though it doesn’t happen in other men) as visual harassment. I wish I knew how to convey to you how it makes many of us feel. And just to review for you: not the same as rape.

@tedd – okay I accept the fact that you are not rude and unmannerly, you are simply a victim of a genetic built in reflex that you do not have the strength to control. Let’s just hope your genetic built in reflexes never progress to anything worse than this and land you in jail and ruin someone’s life.

Good luck

@tedd I’ve seen some studies showing it’s supposedly instinctive for men to stare at breasts. I’ve also read ones which stated it was good for men’s hearts and therefore acceptable to stare. They reek of about as much bullshit as supposedly scholarly men claiming rape was a positive adaptive feature because it continued genes of strong, aggressive males. A lot of studies, which are not in the slightest bit “scientific” (meaning empirical with control groups and such), are basically worthless outside of a certain circumstances and statistics from them are wildly taken out of context to prove whatever point someone wants. Ever hear that old Twain quote? “There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.” One of the most important things I learned studying psychology and anthropology was how to evaluate statistics and research, because in learning that I could realize that most of what people call “scientifically proven” is utter bullshit. Most often, it’s just an attempt to reinforce our culture’s bullshit by, surprise, looking only at people in our culture and ignoring the rest of humanity! In short, just because everyone around you does something, it doesn’t mean it’s actually natural. Particularly in this culture, because we’ve developed some pretty unnatural behaviors in our time (like rape, which exists naturally in some species but not in traditional indigenous humans). It’s therefore no surprise that more of the science coming out of a patriarchal culture reinforces patriarchy than refutes it.

Men and women alike from some existing hunting and gathering peoples have remarked on how strange it was that Western men were so obsessed with breasts, and that anyone in the west thought of them as sexual. I like breasts as much as any other heterosexual man in our culture, but I don’t pretend that preference is any sort of default just because all my hetero male friends do too, and I don’t use that to excuse behavior. And I don’t find myself compelled to peek at every pair of breasts around just because I happen to appreciate breasts. Maybe you feel compelled because those feelings have been normalized.

And I just stumbled on this today and she does such a good job with it.

I’m just wondering if anyone can post links to scientific studies on whether it, is or isn’t, a natural instinct for men to glance at a woman’s boobs (and I mean glancing briefly, not staring or glaring)? I tried Google, but came up with nada, zero, zip, zilch…

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Can you find some con studies to support your argument that it’s not a natural instinct, or that the instinct can be suppressed?

@tedd – Can you find some pro studies to support your argument that it is a natural instinct that’s neigh impossible to suppress?

As for me, well, I find myself instinctively glancing at people on the bus and such, but I don’t stare or glare. And sometimes I’ll be daydreaming and staring off into space and not even realizing I’m looking at someone until I catch them glaring back at me.

@HungryGuy All instincts can be suppressed. Hence me not killing many people over the course of my life.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – It is unreasonable to ask you to give some evidence for your claim that all instincts can be suppressed, given the lack of strong consensus either way?

@HungryGuy Oh, I didn’t know there was a lack of strong consensus.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – And wishful thinking doesn’t make something true.

@HungryGuy I’m not sure why you need me to prove to you with studies of all things that we, as people, can overcome our instincts. We overcome them all the time. It’s not wishful thinking that plenty of men are capable of not staring, it’s the truth. After all I am surrounded by amazing men in my life.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Are we talking about staring/glaring rudely, or quickly glancing and looking away?

@HungryGuy I no longer know what we’re talking about. I don’t think I ever wanted to argue whether either one is instinctual or not, since that’s clearly not the point or a valid excuse.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I’m also confused which we’re talking about. I thought we were talking about a momentary glance.

If we’re talking about prolonged staring, then I totally agree with you that it’s rude.

But if we’re talking about a glance, then I would say that neither side has really proved their case. Maybe it’s instinctual and maybe it’s not, but enough people seem to believe it could be instinctual to make it not so certain that it isn’t. And if it is instinctual, then maybe some amazing men can overcome the instinct. But without hard evidence that it’s not, I don’t think it’s fair to condemn those who can’t overcome their instinct. To use a legal precedent: innocent until proven guilty.

@HungryGuy Read my post. It’s not instinctual. The.Fucking.End.

@incendiary_dan – PROVE it!!

@HungryGuy Not my job to teach you to extrapolate conclusions from facts. I get paid to teach that, so sign up for a class or do your own mental work.

@HungryGuy I don’t have to prove whether it’s instinctual or not, again. Saying it’s instinct and believing that therefore it’s okay to stare is wrong.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Please read my comment before @incendiary_dan butted in.

I said I agree with you that it’s wrong to stare.

I believe the dispute is over whether or not it’s instinct to glance involuntarily. As I said far above, I Googled for studies pro and con, and came up empty. So I asked both sides of the argument to post links to studies proving their case. I don’t see it being obvious one way or the other. If a person wants to prove their case, such person has to provide said proof. It’s as simple as that.

@HungryGuy As I said I don’t care if it’s instinct or not, perhaps some of it feels like instinct when you add baby’s like for breasts + socialization that to obsess over boobs is great. Maybe it is instinctual, does it matter?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Right. We both agree that it’s rude to stare. And if there’s no dispute over whether or not a momentary glance is instinctual, then it doesn’t matter.

A nephew asked this question today on another website: Chicks: Not wearing low cut shirts will discourage dudes from checking you out. I wish I could copy the whole thread thus far, but I am technically challenged.

My post was this: Two questions for you all (that responded to his post): 1.) Do you think that it is instinct or culture that leads to checking out a woman in a low-cut top? 2.) What if it was a female family member wearing a low-cut top or going braless? Would it make a difference?

He has only addressed #1: I think there’s more cultural influence on that aspect of fashion.

Wow lots of posts.

I guess an example I can come up with would be…. Say you’re driving along one day. Regular day, nothing crazy. On the side of the street there’s suddenly a blinking light. Instinctively and reflexively you will probably glance over to see what that light is.

It is literally the same thing.

Some of you seem to think I am talking about GLARING AT TITS and drooling or something. I am not. I’m talking about glancing over, reflexively.

And it most definitely IS reflexive, genetic, instinctual, whatever….... If you don’t believe me, well frankly you’re not a boy, so how would you know?

and @incendiary_dan Thanks again for comparing my reflexive glancing towards cleavage to rape. Real mature and smart.

@tedd I didn’t compare them, I compared studies. Please read clearly if you insist on commenting.

/facepalm

This is only ONE of the reasons I hate leaving my house anymore.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Don’t bother trying to explain further. They don’t get it. They’ve never had boobs. They’ll never get it.

@tedd I’m not a boy. But I know many boys. And not all boys are like you. @WillWorkForChocolate Right? I can’t believe this boiled down to ‘heeeeey, that thing between your legs is unlike the thing between mine, want a lollipop?’

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Exactly! Talking about boobs with a lot of men reminds me of Dory on Finding Nemo: “Oh look, SHINY!!!”

@WillWorkForChocolate @Simone_De_Beauvoir All I’m saying is without being men, without having the same hormones, glands, sexual parts, etc, etc, etc…. How can you tell me what is and is not natural about my body and my reflexes?

That’s like me telling you that its only natural for you to confine your breasts in bra’s. I’ve never had a pair of them, how the hell do I know?

I don’t know if you really get the irony I’m seeing in this whole thread…. started to call out the confines placed upon your natural breasts and how you should be able to just bare them or not confine them or whatever but society has placed these stupid restrictions on them because of our own culture…...... and here you are degrading and putting me down, and trying to tell me something I do naturally and reflexively is wrong and I should feel bad about it and control it?

Am I the only sane person here?

@tedd No one can make you feel ashamed for anything except for you. You should both examine your privilege as a man and as a white person, yes but that’s not what I was talking about.

It surprises me that more men are not indignantly objecting to this guy speaking for the entire sex and reducing them all to sub humans who do not have a brain to use.

@rooeytoo If you read the thread pied_pfiefer (Spelling?) started today you’ll find that most of them at least halfway agree with me.

(IRL I’ve yet to find a guy, or girl for that matter, who disagrees with me)

Oh and thanks for calling an involuntary reflex of human nature that I have “Sub-human” ... I appreciate it, and it brings SO much to the debate. Truly an insightful look at it.

@tedd She didn’t call you that. Why can’t you read carefully? It’s a consistent problem. There were not even that many people on that other thread either.

Fact from fiction, truth from diction. The main and only real difference I see in male and female breast/chest is the nipple. For some reason the female nipple is seen as some great evil. I believe it is largely due to this nation’s (The USA) root in Judea/Christmas ethics and morals. Seeing how some people interpret that the breast and mostly the nipple is evil because it garners thoughts of sex. But in many nations we call the 3rd world where women go topless the boobs are not objectified that way. When I was a kid in National Geographic non-Anglo boobs are seen as sexual because I guess we were not trained by society or Madison Avenue to see them as sexual; so showing them are not seen as special or something to arouse.

It can’t be merely size, there are men with ”mobs” larger than a lot of women and yet they can walk topless on the beach exposing all to those hideous things. They can be 5 time bigger than a woman with “speed bumps” and yet she can’t go topless because she will still have the nipple showing. You can display all parts of the boob, the sides, cleavage, the bottom, all at once with pasties, just so long as the nipple is not seen, if seen, OBSENE!

Women who can’t hold a pencil during the ”Pencil Test” still feel obligated to wear a bra to disguise the ”bullets” seen when there are no bra. Even if no part of the breast exposed the mere hint at nipple is enough for some to say they are obscene.

If it is nipple + female (unless she is under 5yr) it falls more to obscene and sexual than not; part of the reason public breast feeding gives people the willies, the little nipper might break the lip lock at the wrong tie allowing uncovered nipple to be seen.

[mod says:] Flame off, folks. That’s quite enough.

@tedd I am a man, one with a damn lot of testosterone. I can speak to the experience of male-bodied people concerning this (did the beard not give it away?). And as per @rooeytoo‘s remark, I do object to your speaking for our sex, particularly when your experience and the filters through which you choose to perceive it appear to be so narrow. I’m here contributing contrary evidence, which you’re choosing to ignore and then act like it doesn’t exist. Does nobody actually care to object specifically to my contribution? If you want some sources, you need simply to read any ethnography on the San people, and perhaps the Hadza. Some overview of the Australian aborigines might also help. In these societies, we often see women openly showing breasts, much as @Hypocrisy_Central quickly mentioned. They are not sexualized, and there’s a lot of reason to believe that this was the case in many non-agricultural peoples in prehistory (mostly from the lack of breast coverings outside of cold areas.

I don’t see what the big deal is if a guy happens to glance at boobs, instinct or not. Perhaps there’s a natural affinity for boobs, perhaps it’s a learned affinity. Or more likely some of both. As far as I can tell appreciation is no more or less valid when it’s acquired rather than inborn. And since we’re talking about glances rather than ogling I don’t really see where the offense is. Surely a glance is not the breech of etiquette that staring is.

Frankly, I’ve had my eyes get involuntarily snagged when a pair of lovely tits unexpectedly appeared in my field of vision, and I don’t even swing that way. I felt mightly embarrassed and readjusted my line of sight fortright. So if men are guilty for a quick look a boobs, so am I.

*ducks and runs out, boobs bouncing.

What is going on with all the censorship on this thread? I come back and some mod has gone a bit antsy. Relax, this is in social.

Just to be clear, it’s not “some mod.” We work as a team. We all see the flags and quip removals – trust me, we get an email about every one. And Social doesn’t mean argumentative/off-topic responses automatically get to stay.

@Allie Got it. Cleared.

This discussion continues to play in my mind and has led me onward. I really think this should be posed in the other question but since females are not allowed to respond to that question I will pose it here. Since men “reflexivly and uncontrollably” look at breasts, does that mean men check out their own daughters or mothers or sisters? Do they feel guilty for doing that? How do fathers feel if their best mate is checking out their 12 year old developing daughter? Are the male teachers at high school checking out all their female students?

I am beginning to find it intimidating. All males feel they have the genetic right to view me as a couple of anatomical parts instead of a complete human being. Are there any men who are capable of seeing a human and not a pair of breasts (with other parts less visible)?

Seems sad to me. Is @incendiary_dan the only male in the world I can speak to as an equal not a pair of breasts?

@rooeytoo Oh gods I hope not. That’s a lot of pressure for one dude! :P

Seriously though, as much as some of these guys seem to want an excuse to look, I don’t think any of them consciously think of women as just a pair of tits. And though my comment to this effect was for some reason modded, I mentioned that so far nobody has actually said that they think there’s anything wrong with looking at breasts (I think). I occasionally glance at breasts, but it’s not a compulsion and I don’t think it’s instinctual. Just a healthy and respectful appreciation (I hope).

But maybe I’m wrong, and I’d like to know the answers to the questions @rooeytoo asked.

@rooeytoo Nah, he’s not the only one. Have hope. Come by and I’ll show you. Besides, I’m growing two more humans who have the XY chromosome but won’t be doing that to anyone.

@rooeytoo I love your comment and the questions you posed. For @tedd and @HungryGuy who adamantly stick with “omfg it’s instinct and you can’t prove otherwise!”, I’d like to know- if it’s SO much of an instinct, are they checkin’ out their moms’ and sisters’ boobs? If it’s purely instinctual, do they catch themselves “glancing” at the breasts of daughters or nieces or other young developing girls? Eewww

We should have detachable boobs so that we can wear them for our partners, but leave them on the nightstand when we leave the house. Then none of this would be an issue!! =0)

@WillWorkForChocolate “We should have detachable boobs so that we can wear them for our partners, but leave them on the nightstand when we leave the house. Then none of this would be an issue!!”

I wouldn’t de-sex myself just because I don’t happen to be to the company of my partner. I don’t stop being a sexual being just because he isn’t around any more than I stop brushing my teeth if I’m not kissing him.

@fundevogel I was making a sarcastic joke. Guess I should have put a tilde at the end…

Ah, well. Nevermind then.

@WillWorkForChocolate – I always thought inflatables would be good, pump them up when you need them, deflate when in the company of males with “genetic built-in reflexes.”

LOL! Can you imagine just pushing a button and hearing “tssssssssssst” while your boobs go flat?

Knowing Mr. Fiance, he’d flatten them all the time just to hear that sound. I’d have to hide the button.

Oh my goodness, my sides hurt now. You ladies have just made my day.

@rooeytoo – “Seems sad to me. Is @incendiary_dan the only male in the world I can speak to as an equal not a pair of breasts?”

Of course not!

Most, if not all, men here in this thread can see you as an equal and not just a pair of breasts.

Just because some men are honest enough to tell you the truth that it may be instinctual to glance for a split second (or at least that the issue is inconclusive without any actual research to support one side or the other), doesn’t mean that such men can’t respect you as a person.

Or you can continue to shut out all the honest men here, and acknowledge only those who tell you what you want to hear…

Ah, so men who disagree with you are dishonest. Real top notch discourse we have going here.

@incendiary_dan – that is what I was going to say, I believe @HungryGuy just called a large segment of the population liars!

@rooeytoo Well, not that large. :P

Well I was called a liar and ignorant and was cursed at, merely for being impartial and asking both sides to post some evidence to support their arguments…

@HungryGuy No you weren’t, and I believe we both were given the warnings not to keep this up. So, let’s not keep it up, eh?

If people will stop attacking me, I’ll stop defending myself…

@HungryGuy Nobody’s attacking you.

[mod says] Ahem. Knock it off, gentlemen.

coming in on the back end of “is it instinct or culture to notice a woman’s breasts”? I’d really, honestly like to get the reactions and opinions of cultures where it is the norm for a woman to not wear a shirt or anything covering her chest of any kind. Granted, those cultures are less “civilized” (tongue in cheek) than we supposedly are but…I’d be very interested to see what the perspective of breasts is to a male who is raised in a society where exposed breasts are perfectly normal (which they are…) An American male tossed into such a society would be breaking his neck trying to see them all—and THAT is a societal thing.

I’d really, honestly like to get the reactions and opinions of cultures where it is the norm for a woman to not wear a shirt or anything covering her chest of any kind. I think many in those cultures that are “less civilized” aka technical don’t have access to PCs and notebooks as we “privilaged” nations have it. Asking them might be kind of tough. ;-)

I know, @Hypocrisy_Central. But if only we could ask them we’d know whether this male tenancy to ogle women’s breasts is nature or nurture….do the males in an all topless society sexuality breasts the way we do? That’s what I want to ask.

You know, there was a time when women were expected to keep their ankles covered. Displaying them was considered a blatant show of sexuality, and men would ogle and women would be scandalized. We think that’s stupid now. I wonder if breasts would lose their “mystique” if they weren’t hidden away?

I am like @casheroo. I like wearing my bra. I wear it all day, to bed sometimes and only take it off when I shower. But, when I am with my girlfriend and we walk around our apartments (when together), we’re naked.

I just spent the last 6 years living in a culture that up to about 30 years ago rarely saw a white person and had virtually no contact with the outside world. Before white fellas arrived the black fellas wore next to nothing, a lap lap was about it. Now all dress in a typical tropical fashion, anything loose fitting. The ladies all breast feed and the babies like convenient access so breasts are minimally covered. The young boys are as hormone driven as any (which can be attested to by the high rate of teen and sometimes preteen pregnancies and frequent gang rapes, although they don’t really see it as such) but these bouncing, jiggly breasts are seemingly unnoticed by all. Except the babies. There was one lady, a very petite actually skinny lady with huge pendulous breasts (she had 4 babies and I think she was about 20). Her youngest was always riding on her hip and when he wanted a snack, mom would reach into her top, haul out a breast and kind of flip it up into the air. Baby would reach out with one hand and snare it in a fashion similar to a tight end one handing a touchdown pass and with one fell swoop would hook it around and right into his mouth. It was astounding to watch. And she knew I got a kick out of seeing it so she would always stand in front of me and smile and then go into the routine.

So anyhow, I do think in some cultures the fascination with female breast does not seem to be as intense as in others.

Thank you @rooeytoo!

I remember how my whole outlook on breasts changed when I started nursing. I realized how FREAKING STUPID it was to sexualize them. They’re lean, mean feeding machines. That’s all. I remember going into a grocery store when my son was about 15 months old (still nursing now and again, for the bonding and closeness of it, for us both.) He saw a Cosmo magazine cover, with the usual woman’s breasts displayed sexually, and he cut right through the BS and said, “NUMMA NUMMA NUMMA!!!” And the ridiculousness of it hit me all over again.

It also makes me wonder, still, why Cosmo ALWAYS displays women’s breasts in a sexual way on the cover of their magazine….for a magazine that’s all about women’s lib, equality and independence. I never understood that.

@Dutchess_III – I agree with you about Cosmo. I sometimes think it’s really a man’s magazine :-p

Yeah…I do wonder…

@Dutchess_III It also makes me wonder, still, why Cosmo ALWAYS displays women’s breasts in a sexual way on the cover of their magazine….for a magazine that’s all about women’s lib, equality and independence. I never understood that. You too? I can’t recall all the discussions I have had about the subtle differences in magazines for men and those of women. A lot of the ads in women’s magazines would pass for a page out of a pictorial if you covered up the product. My thought if they wanted women to thing round and sized 10 was the norm for women why use a slender size 5 gal to hawk the product, especially to other women?

Exactly @Hypocrisy_Central!

@Dutchess_III “But if only we could ask them we’d know whether this male tenancy to ogle women’s breasts is nature or nurture….do the males in an all topless society sexuality breasts the way we do? That’s what I want to ask.”

It’s a misconception that tribal peoples are more “natural” than other cultures. It’s a mistake of old school anthropology to presume tribal cultures and (and non western cultures) represent a less evolved version of humanity (not that that’s what you meant). They have spent just as long generating a culture as us, they’ve just moved in a different direction.

For what it’s worth I don’t think there is much value in establishing what is natural to human separate from culture. Culture is natural to humans. Unsocialized humans are a decidedly unnatural thing. It is the same with a lot of animals. Ever heard of the unfortunate animals raised in captivity without their parents or other members of it’s species? We evolved culture as part of a survival strategy and the only way to really judge it’s viability is in terms of the quality of life enjoyed by its members.

Perhaps a good question would be if cultural fetishizing or normaliization of breasts has a notifiable impact on the quality of life in a given culture. I expect it depends on what other cultural characteristics are present.

@fundevogel – That’s a great question in your last paragraph! Why don’t you ask it?...

@HungryGuy maybe I will.

@fundevogel – I see :-p But I’m kind’a afraid to participate, now…

@HungryGuy No minefields yet.

Yeah, well, look what happened here. I just asked both sides to post evidence, tried to be impartial, and, well….

@fundevogel I know that tribal people would have developed other cultural mores and expectations. I’m just wondering if, in any culture that views boobs as perfectly natural and there is no shock or shame in exposing them publicly…. if they are still sexualized in such a society that would suggest it is more of an instinctual thing.

Like I said, there was a time when showing ankles was a big no no, and to see a woman’s ankles was a sexual thing. It’s not any more, and as far as I can tell, ankles are no longer sexualized. Would boobs still be if we could just set them free?

I made the point about tribal only because that’s the only culture I know of where they are naturally free, and so I’d be interested what someone from such a culture thinks.

@Dutchess_III – I wonder if there’s any research or studies of tribal people in this regard of how they regard body parts (such as breasts) that westerners regard as erotic. That would help resolve this issue.

@Dutchess_III It’s a good question I just question our ability to untangle the influences of culture and biology when it comes to behavior. Somethings you can (like racism) other things like this are just really hard to sort.

The first step towards being more respectful would be to call them what they are, BREASTS. I know it is merely a pet peeve of mine but the dictionary says this:

boob
1    [boob] Show IPA Slang . –noun
1. a stupid person; fool; dunce.
2. British . a blunder; mistake.

Humans (before formula) had a hard time existing without them so they are not foolish or a blunder. How did they get to be called boob, which I think is highly insulting!

Ummmm….Mammary Glands @rooeytoo?!

@rooeytoo I like an awful lot of terms for boobs, there are only a few that annoy me (“funbags”, variations involving “pillow”). Personally, breast seems like a rather formal term so it would be weird to use exclusively. Like only referring to my jaw as a mandible. Hmm, I should do that occasionally.

I love words. I can’t stick to one when I can use 20 interchangeably.

I only use funbags in regards to the way some men regard boobs. I had a very brief relationship with a man who was purely focused on my funbags. My other lovers treated me more as a woman, instead of a walking titty.

Personally, I love the term “funbags”, mainly due to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNUOfXH5kxY

@DominicX Totally understandable. Though I was more interested in her hoo-ha.

Is it just me or is that a totally stupid and not particularly funny video? Who is Denise Richards? To me it is like little boys humor, I am amazed it appeals to adults?????

@DominicX – do you really like that???

@rooeytoo She’s an actress, one that seemed to get hired more for her physical looks than acting chops. I remember there being a fuss a while back about her ass being photoshopped to be more curvy on a movie poster, but I can’t remember what movie it was. I think the only thing I ever saw her in was Starship Troopers, but I don’t remember much of it. I think my professor was trying to convince us it was a metaphor for Nazis…but it’s just a really bad movie.

@rooeytoo

Well, then call me a little boy. :P I love it. The first time I saw it (which was several years ago, mind), it had me in stitches. :P

Made me how many of those fun bags she had to sell to pay for her “fun bags”.

Amazing!

(and isn’t it also amazing that this thread is still alive and kicking!)

As the heat rises, the question becomes a sticky and still germane one. My bra is glued to me in the 90˚ heat.

If you want to talk about sheer comfort, I think Champion or someone should start making sports bras out of a lighter, wicking material such as dri-fit. Champion has the most comfortable sports bra I have ever worn. Now Target is selling one that is just as nice for ⅓ the price. My only complaint is that it is too heavy because it is for high impact sports. If it were made in the same fashion and of a lighter, slightly less restrictive material, it would be wonderful!