Is the "North" more racist than the "South"?

Welcome to Fluther.

I actually think from living in both the North and the South that racism is still more ingrained in the South.

For example, I heard a woman stand up in a public meeting in Florida and make a very thinly veiled racist comment at a public meeting.

But racism exists everywhere.

I don’t know as it is more prevalent. I think the manifestation of racism differs in the various regions of the US.

I think it is still probably more prevalent in the South but this is just a guess based on history. I just watched a wonderful program on the Freedom Riders of the 1960s on PBS and you can see the institutionalized racism that existed back then and the mob violence that ensued. That is a relatively recent period of history to overcome.

Welcome to Fluther!

People are racist, not geographical locations.
In my experience.

On average, southerners I’ve met have been far more racist than northerners I’ve met.

I read those same forums, some people suggested Boston and some New England states, although I haven’t lived there so i wouldn’t know. It is possible, but I’m still going with the south just from my experience. Although according this hate groups map, I need to get out of NJ lol.

I don’t know if the South is more racist than the North, but I think that racism in the South is probably a little more blatant, obvious and openly tolerated than it is in the North. I personally know people of color, and gay people too, who are literally afraid to visit the South, because they are fearful for their lives. Some people in the South are more than happy to display the Confederate flag, even in this day and age. Everybody knows that that flag represents slavery. It may represent other things too, but most people, and especially people of color, know that it represents slavery.

My impression is that one will find more racism where lower educational levels coincide with low economic opportunity. It’s pretty easy to find pockets of these conditions in a variety of regions, but they’re probably still more pervasive in the South.

@janbb

“I just watched a wonderful program on the Freedom Riders of the 1960”

I really wanted to watch that, but the local idiots decided to preempt it with something about meth makers using cold medicine for production.

@thorninmud Excellent point.

The North is an awfully big place. But I can assure you, after spending my teenage in the South, I never saw such naked racism as I did while working one summer in the Pocono Mountains at Buck Hill Falls, Pennsylvania. The kitchen crew actually got away with killing thier mentally-challenged black dishwasher after months of harassing him The authorities, who
s offices were in the Buck Hill Falls Resort hotel, did absolutely nothing.

@Brian1946 Check for reruns or streaming. It was excellent!

@Espiritus_Corvus That is horrible.

I’ve lived in Virginia, Washington, DC, Minneapolis, Chicago and Memphis…all for two years or more. In my experience, the South still has a further way to go in overcoming racism than the North. But please do not take my word, or anyone else’s for that matter, as a deciding factor.

If you really care about this topic, take a look at the laws by state and those that have come up in court in the last 5–10 years. Also, read up on the laws that are being pursued by current political candidates. It might be an eye-opener.

@Pied_Pfeffer What do you mean by looking at the laws?

Looking at the SPLC Hate Map, I find it very hard to believe there are no hate groups in Alaska. There are a lot of crazy ass racists on the net purporting to be from Alaska.

@Espiritus_Corvus I think that is because Alaska is so massive in relation to its population, that it is hard to find enough people in one place to make a group.

When I visited, I noticed a few people who would qualify.

I have heard people say they found more racism in the North than the South. I think they mean that the racism is more institutionalized in the North. The North has institutionalized blacks as the underclass. It’s not that people are overtly racist. It’s just that there is a kind of functional racism going on that happens beneath people’s awareness.

I have no experience with the South, so I can’t argue for or against this hypothesis. However, it seems to me that personal racism might happen more in the South than the North. But institutional racism might happen more in the North. In the South, there are a lot of poor whites as well as blacks, so institutionally speaking, they might treat both whites and blacks equally… well, more equally.

In the North, poverty is at far higher levels among blacks than whites. It’s as if they get tracked by our social service system. In addition, Northern blacks probably have less social capital than poor Southern blacks have, since the communities in the South have been together longer. Perhaps there is less mobility.

I know a number of blacks who returned to the South because they didn’t like the racism in the North. They said it was better in the South.

I can’t verify any of this. It’s just stuff I’ve heard and speculative explanations.

I’ve lived in the North and the southern parts of the US. Racism is everywhere, but I heard the “N-word” used twice as much in the North and by my northern friends than in the South. I also believe that while ignorance and bigots are everywhere; the deep-rooted hatred of Blacks was more prevalence in the North and in my northern friends and family. I’ve encountered more northerners with an attitude of “I’m going to protect you my poor, downtrodden black friend.” Sad.

My experience is similar to Wundayatta’s. But more importantly, history speaks more loudly than anecdotes. After the Civil War, while many Southern states codified racism in Jim Crow laws, segregation and other forms of rampant discrimination was practiced in the North as well. The Great Migration of blacks didn’t occur immediately after the Civil War, it began only after there was a potential for jobs in the North during WWI. And they didn’t just walk into Defense factories and go to work; federal laws had to be made to allow blacks to work in Defense because their patriotism was questioned. So, they didn’t just go North because they felt they would be treated better, they went for the jobs—fifty years after emancipation. And they had to fight for those jobs. KKK was very active in the North, especially Indiana. Racism in the North was evident up through the time of the Civil Rights movement evidenced by the busing riots in Boston and Chicago and the many law suits involving blacks moving into traditionally white neighborhoods up through the 80s.

Not just the KKK @Espiritus_Corvus, unions and other northern “organizations” discriminated. Capiche

@bkcunningham Right. The AFL was notorious for their discriminatory practices. One of the reasons for the success of the CIO was that it welcomed black workers and fought discrimination in the workplace.

I find in the South, in public, people are more politically correct, more careful with their words, mention race less, hell mention nationalities, ethnicities, all of that less, than in the North. But, behind closed they are more racist, or at least don’t give a shit about helping the minorities and the poor. Remember this is all generalization, not everyone of course. And, in the south I find so much more desparity between the races. It becomes clear the south grew up differently when you spend time here. I think it is systemically much more difficult for minorities to overcome difficult beginnings and be upwardly mobile in the south. Public schools are overlooked, and so many southerners talk in extremes about not wanting to pay for public education. At minimum they are not happy at all down here about the blacks moving out to the suburbs, their children in the suburban schools.

But, I will say that it is not the color of their skin, people don’t generally think being born black means your different and can’t “overcome.” What they have objection to is speaking poorly, dressing like a hood, dropping out of school, and the other generalizations and stereotypes. Not sure if it is racism in your book when things are statistically true. I think definitely it can be argued white people are a little more xenophobic in the south.

Welcome to fluther!

@Espiritus_Corvus I love the story of the history of the forming of the AFL-CIO. I hadn’t thought about that in some time. Thanks sparking my mind.

I grew up in New England and I have to say that I encountered very little racism. When I was in the Navy alongside people from places like South Carolina, Alabama, and Texas, I heard a lot of “Nigger”, “Damn Spics!”, and “Fucking Flips!” (there are a lot of Filipinos in the Navy) and it was never from the Californians or Yankees, and rarely from Midwesterners; it was all Southerners. Where I work now, there are a couple of racist guys, but unless Florida and Arkansas count as “up North”, I think it safe to say that Southerners are at least more vocally racist.

Now, some contend that Northerners are just as racist and merely keep quiet about it. The truth is just that we just don’t like people in general. It’s not racism if you are rude to everyone.

From my observations living all over the U.S., I don’t think the North is more racist, but I do think they are more hypocritical about it.

@jerv Growing up in New England were you basically in all white communities?

I was talking about the Freedom Rider program to a veyr liberal Southern friend this week and she asked me how it was when I was growing up in the North in the 50s and 60s. She was surprised to learn that we didn’t have segregated water fountains, back of the bus areas, etc. It totally blew my mind that she didn’t know that.

@JLeslie Does Boston count? True, the smaller towns an hour away are whiter than Wonder™ bread, but the cities are quite diverse, and I spent almost half my childhood in Boston.

@janbb The Freedom Riders is an amazing bit of history.

Your story goes back to the south growing up differently than the north. I feel pretty sure my parents have never seen a sign saying whites only in real life having grown up in NY. I was talking to a white woman here in Memphis one day, talking about race and the conversation turned to a study that showed black people don’t trust Jewish people and other negative views, and I was saying how frustrating that is considering Jews came out in large numbers to support the civil rights movement, many travelling from the north to help, and something like 30% of the lawyers who worked on the movent were Jewish. She said they really wished the northerners who came down during civil rights had stayed up north. Her words implied northerners don’t understand the south. She is Jewish, and so her words caused me profound dissappointment.

In all my conversations I start to feel, in the ethnocentric part of my mind, that the southerners need to take on faith that the north does some things better. Then the other part of my mind gets this reality check that things really are different here in the south and the changes I think would be so right might not work. Especially because I think so many of the black population would be resistant. Not sure.

@jerv Boston counts. I don’t know how black it is, but it is certainly diverse. My generalizations, which are nothing but observations, seems to be that very white communities tend to not be racist, because they can be idealists in their minds. Communities that have a history of slavery and/or large socio-economic desparities between races have the most racism. This is even true sometimes without a logn history, but as large populations move in that change the demographics. People seem fine if a couple, pick your race or group, move in. But, when the numbers start to get big, many people don’t like it. The more diverse a community, like Boston, many many minorites and even many ethnicities within the white population (Italian, Greek, Irish) the more acceptance of we are all different and all the same and we all deserve the same opportunities and respect.

There are many interesting historical facts when you look at slavery in America even before the Freedom Riders. Did you know, for instance, that in May 1854, when Congress voted to extend slavery into the Northwestern Territory, 20 House members formed a group they called The Republican Party?

Six of the nine platforms in the Republican Platform in 1856 condemned slavery and/or focused on equal civil rights for everyone: “Resolved. That with our Republican fathers, we hold it to be a self-evident truth that all men are endowed with the inalienable right of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. . . . That, as our Republican fathers, when they had abolished slavery in all our national territory, ordained that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law, it becomes our duty to maintain this provision of the Constitution against all attempts to violate it for the purpose of establishing slavery.” Republican Campaign Edition for the Million Containing the Republican Platform (Boston: John P. Jewett and Co., 1856), p. 4.

@bkcunningham And in the 1960’s during the civil rights movement the southern democrats, dixiecrats, fled the democratic party because it supported civil rights and all became Republicans, and souther Republicans are basically the old racist dixie crats. The history from 100 years ago about the Republicans is interesting, but does nothing to try an imply the Republican party is not racist in 2011. I am not saying every Republican is racist, but really party is less important than north and south in the equation in my opinion.

@JLeslie is absolutely right. The modern Republican party was basically born with Nixon (and later Reagan’s) appeals to racist white southerners, flipping them from the pro-civil-rights Dems. See Southern Strategy.

@jerv My experiences in Boston have been quite the contrary. Especially with the Irish in South Boston. You couldn’t find a more intense, naked racism in Montgomery, Alabama, as far as I’m concerned. Nothing has changed since the days of the school bus riots from what I can see. And in the working-class part of Camden, the “Townies.” I don’t know what part of Boston you grew up in, but your head has certainly been in the sand on this one.

@Espiritus_Corvus Do you think it has more to do with social classes than north and south or even ethnicity? I never hear the upper class say racist things, it doesn’t come up in my experience.

@JLeslie

“I never hear the upper class say racist things, it doesn’t come up in my experience.”

Would you consider Mel Gibson to be upper class?

@Espiritus_Corvus “Southies” are part of the reason I put the last two sentences in my original answer. I am pale and pasty and they don’t like me there. Same with my rosy-faced born-and-raised Bostonian mother who never lost/diluted her accent.
Then again, I never said racism doesn’t exist in Boston, merely that it is less prevalent and overt than what I have experienced from Southerners. One thing I have noticed is that people from other parts of the country seem to think us New Englanders are a little intense.

@Brian1946 Good point. As always generalizations don’t mean everyone in the group. I have not heard him say things specifically about blacks or Hispanics, or Asians, just Jews, but I might have missed something. I don’t call antisemitism racism, but it is basically the same idea of course. I still am not sure Mel Gibson is really antisemitic, he might have just said what would usually be said behind closed doors, bevause of his drunken stuper and not thrilled about being arrested.

Still, money seems to be the great divider with education mixed in, social class basically, more than race or ethnicity in my experience. It’s just that generalizations get made about the races when there is a huge percentage of one race with money and another large percentage of a different racs without.

@Espiritus_Corvus I almost forgot is to explicitly state that different people do have different experiences, and that is a large part of why we have differing opinions. I just didn’t want to come across as refuting your observations.

@jerv Thank you. That is why I gave my opinion and discredited it as being just one voice.

I wonder what @HollyF thinks?

@JLeslie Most definitely.

@jerv I appreciate that. I have a question. I used to have to go up there once a year for a month at a time in October. When I’m stuck in cities, I shoot eight ball for recreation, during breaks from seminars. In South Boston I was told the way people shoot pool in Boston is to call two shots ahead. Is that for real, or were they just playing me? Either way, it vastly improved my game within hours. But I paid dearly for the education.

@brian1946
Mel Gibson the sixth of 11 children in a blue collar Irish Catholic family dominated by his extremely religious Irish-born mother and raised in a working class neighborhood in Sydney, Australia. His old man was permanently injured while working as a brakeman for the railroad out of Peekskill, NY, and he took his settlement and his family and moved back to his native Australia. Mel Gibson was named after the 13th century Irish Saint Mel. He was slated for a career in the Australian armed forces right out of high school, but acting intervened.

@Espiritus_Corvus That is a new one on me. Then again, I’m not much of a pool player, and have never actually played in Boston.

@Espiritus_Corvus If you are calling every shot that is nine ball.

@JLeslie I am used to calling every shot even in regular eight-ball, but only the current shot, not two shots ahead.

@JLeslie The rules are regional. Like calling two shots ahead in South Boston. It’s interestng because as we rapidly become more homogenized as a culture, even in our cuisines and disappearing accents, there are still a few interesting differences in this land of strip malls. Where I grew up, you lost your shot if you didn’t sink the ball you called. Nine ball is nine ball and eight ball is eight ball. Two different games requiring the players to call their shots.

BTW, if anyone here is interested, while looking for references to our discussion above I found the complete Slave Narratives from the 1930s. During the FDR presidency, the Works Progress Administration Writer’s Project sent people out across the South to interview former slaves. It’s an incredible treasure of American Folklore History not only for it’s content, but because not a few of the interviewers went on to become great authors like Zora Neale Hurston of the Florida project and the great war correspondent Martha Gellhorn.

@JLeslie I’m sorry. I’ve been busy dealing with family problems, so I only manage to get on for a few minutes at a time.

@HollyF No need to be sorry. So, what do you think? Did you have an opinion at the begiining? Has it changed?

I’m conflicted.
You see, I’ve experienced racism in the South. I haven’t experienced it in the North, but I always hesitate saying that because I know some people will jump down my throat for it. I’ve heard people say that they’ve experienced more racism in upstate NY than in Louisiana. I don’t doubt them, it’s just not my experience. They also say the same thing about “Pennsyltucky”.
I think that sometimes, people may confuse racism with ignorance also. I mean it sincerely as sometimes. Many people are ignorant and believe into the stereotypes about every. single. person.