Should Harold Camping be arrested and prosecuted for his false doomsday prophesy?

Freedom of religion gives him the right to say anything he chooses. It also gives people the right to choose to associate with him or not.

He did not do anything illegal. (Sadly)

Are you sure? He can’t yell “Fire” in a theatre no matter what his religion is.

If significant social unrest, property damage, loss of life, etc. results from his actions, then he can be found responsible. Otherwise he’s just a coot and a douchebag.

So Applewhite could not be held responsible until after the poison was taken?

I’d personally go many steps further than that.
Like outlaw the forced indoctrination of children in any religion.

This is not a religion problem.

Says you.^

In fact, if these supposed Christians would have paid more attention to their religion, they would have known the bible did not support what Camping claimed, and specifically refuted it.

And sure, OK, “says me”. Just like “you says” the opposite. Great retort.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies If you want a longer retort than that, which could potentially derail the question, I’d suggest moving this over to social. It should probably be in the social section anyways.

Didn’t that guy who made all of those people believe that they should spend hours or days in a sweat lodge get in trouble for co-ercing them? Some of those people died. This is kind of like that.

Here’s some info on that trial.

Not at all @everephebe. This is a serious issue. Social is not where this belongs at all. You can poke fun all you want over there. But people die for this type of shit. People give up their savings and leave their families for this crap.

I don’t blame the banking crisis on banks. I blame it on some unscrupulous bankers. Sad to blame everyone when everyone isn’t to blame. There were many religious scholars who denied Camping’s claims.

One question to asker: Who was defrauded?

Yes @Kardamom. That’s exactly what I’m talking about.

That’s the case I’m trying to build @squirbel. I’m wondering if there is support to enforce a prosecution.

”...people die for this type of shit. People give up their savings and leave their families for this crap.”
I know, that’s kinda my point.

You don’t think I’m serious? I am. However I’m not the one who used the tags: fraud, freaks, fanatics and fuckheads. I’m I enjoy the alliteration and all but…

Rather that put him in prison, pay him to do it once a year, and arrest anyone who listens to him.

You should be allowed to say anything you want, the responsability should always be on the listener.

There isn’t. He’s just another man, except one who got a little media attention. If he gets locked up for all the foolishness, I would lock up all of the birthers [especially Trump] for lying about something when proof has been provided many times over the years.

Same could be said for bankers @everephebe. Shall we deny finance 101 to students?

Then why is Madoff in jail @poisonedantidote?

And most Christians did laugh off his foolishness. Just in church today my Pastor preached on all the ways he was wrong. At least in our faith we always remember the text “Not one knows the hour…”.

If Camping defrauded anyone, then yes, he should be prosecuted. But he also spent a lot of his own money, it’s not like he asked for assets to be given to him. He was actually telling people to not give everything away.

People who really believed what he has been saying are not using the brains God gave them. But that’s not against the law.

(your analogy to shouting fire in a crowded theater doesn’t hold up. Shouting fire instills a panic regarding an immediate threat to life. Camping has been preaching this for many years, plenty enough time for anyone to evaluate.)

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I agree with you on this one. Maybe someone who is a lawyer could get on this thread and help us out. The guy in the sweat lodge tragedy has clearly been brought to court, but I don’t know the exact charges, but it sounds similar (if on a much smaller scale) than today’s doomsday dude.

Plus haven’t some of those TV preachers gotten into legal trouble by swindling money out of senior citizens in the past? Not sure what those charges would have been either.

Is anybody on Fluther a lawyer?

What is the church’s punishment for heresy again?

What church’s?

Just because his actions did not lead to wide spread civic panic doesn’t mean that peoples lives were not damaged because of this. If I were a Christian, I’d be completely outraged at someone like him misrepresenting my faith. I’d bring charges against him if I could.

Question, following @real’s development:

In considering the separation of church and state, who should punish him for his mistakes? The church? Or the state?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I don’t know what you are asking.

“Should Harold Camping be arrested” – I’m talking about the “should” part here. I think he should be allowed to say the world is going to end.

There are plenty of homeless people on city corners shouting that the world is going to end, and no one would ever think of calling for their arrest. Why should this nut case be any different? just because his brand of insanity is more widely accepted? It seems like a double standard to me.

Should I go to prison if I run around my town claiming that the sky is falling? or that we are all going to die because Sauron is coming.

Also, how do we even prove accountability and culpability when the guy is a nut case from the get go.

Shouting “fire” where there is none is no different than shouting “doomsday” where there is none, and no support for it other than your own private agenda.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Here is one legal definition of fraud. I’m afraid this guy’s defense will be that he made a mistake and he didn’t mislead people on purpose. I’m not sure how you would prove that he did it on purpose.

I believe he did it on purpose, or else he’s just mentally ill, in which case you wouldn’t be able to find him guilty

Why is the state even involved in matters of religion?

@Kardamom @RealEyesRealizeRealLies

He might try saying this was part of his prediction Iceland Volcano eruption

Because lunatics like Jones, Applewhite, and Koresh have forced them to be involved.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

“Are you sure? He can’t yell “Fire” in a theatre no matter what his religion is.”
That’s different. His theory has a religious background. Yelling, “Fire” does not. Because of his religion, he has a reason to believe the world will end, so he wants to warn people about it.

“Shouting “fire” where there is none is no different than shouting “doomsday” where there is none, and no support for it other than your own private agenda.”
There is support for it. Religious support. Is it false? Of course. But he had a reason to believe it was true. I suggest you do some research.

Unfortunately, what Camping did was legal. No one should be stupid enough to believe it anyway.

Is this guy on par with Jones, Applewhite, and Koresh?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

@squirbel The State is legally bound to get involved (even if it is a church) when a crime has been comitted. In that particular case, some type of fraud had been comitted, and I do believe that some of the people that died where held against their will.

No, he defrauded a religion, hijacked it entirely to suit his own argument. The bible specifically states that no man, no angel, and not even the Christ can know the hour.

He did not have any religion on his side whatsoever. He misrepresented it completely.

- Person ‘A’ claims the world Is going to end.
– Person ‘B’ believes it and tells someone else.

Does person ‘B’ go to jail as an accomplice? and what of the 2012 prophecy that has been repeated by millions? All to jail?

Why is that so? And is that truly legal, or the actions the State has taken?

I personally feel that some religion is exactly like shouting “fire” in a threatre. I mean, Hell is a fiery place right? And some religions say that if you don’t follow their strict rules, you are going to burn in the fires of hell. That is rather like shouting fire, isn’t it?

Must we wait for Jones to serve the Kool-Aid before we acknowledge a crime has been committed?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

*“No, he defrauded a religion, hijacked it entirely to suit his own argument. The bible specifically states that no man, no angel, and not even the Christ can know the hour.
He did not have any religion on his side whatsoever. He misrepresented it completely.”*
Please use @ so we know who you’re responding to. He had religious support, but overlooked a few things. That doesn’t mean that the other religious support is invalid. Again, he presented his theory with a reason to believe it. That doesn’t mean there aren’t reasons that invalidate it.

No, it’s not the same @everephebe. Threats of eternal damnation don’t risk causing civic unrest in the immediate moment. No time line is given.

There are many religions who believe in a “Rapture”. Harold was one of them. He just made it super-specific to a day and time.

He was acting on his beliefs.
He was warning people, genuinely.
He did not make any profit from it.
He gained much negativity because he is now a world-fool.
He is slightly [I diminish] off of his rocker.

Fraud requires an actor to knowingly deceive his audience, so that he might gain untoward proceeds from his act.
There is no legal case because people were not defrauded.
Civic unrest was not created – most people in the world continued life as it always has.

Wait a sec @comicalmayhem… Are you telling me that if you define the Christian God as the FSM, that means you have religious support for your beliefs?

Perhaps, rather than prosecuting someone for exercising his First Amendment rights, we ought to stop eviscerating the budget for education. Yes, responsibility is on the listener, but we ought to at least arm the listener to be able to recognize bullshit when they hear it.

HEAR HEAR @laureth !!!

We need to boost and fund our educational system…

Then I ask again, why is Madoff in jail instead of those who fell for his crap?

Because Madoff made tons of money defrauding many people??

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies – Madoff defrauded for personal gain. Our preacher guy didn’t make any money, and believed his own pablum.

I don’t recall the survivors of Jones Town or the surviving Branch Dividians spending time in jail.

His website http://www.familyradio.com/ (which is down now) was asking for donations so they could spread “the word” and save people. Lots of people gave money. I doubt that many of the donations were actually spent.

@johnpowell – Much money was spent.

@comicalmayhem “You have religious support for your beliefs if the beliefs are true.”

They can’t even prove the religions are true. Therefor there can be no true religious support for them.

He bastardized a doctrine, and claimed that which rejected him was actually supportive. Oldest trick in the book.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Do some research. The guy had TRUE Christian support for his theory. He left things out, and that’s why you think all the support he did have was invalid.

From @laureth‘s article “But there is a serious side. Camping seemed entirely genuine in his beliefs, enough to spend a small fortune promoting them. While others may be making money out of believing in Doomsday, Camping is not one of them. ”

Well if he left things out, then he didn’t truly have the support he claimed to have. And that only supports the claim of fraud, if he intentionally left things out.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies True based on the religion itself, not based on scientific / real world evidence. Of course no religion is true.

Marshall Applewhite was entirely genuine in his beliefs too.

Is this guy on par with Jones, Applewhite, and Koresh?
@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

@laureth :: But it is still a fraction of what was taken in. I know they had billboards and buses. But if you take in 200 million and only spend half, that is a scam.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies He still had the support he claimed he had. He just didn’t have the support he didn’t claim to have. It’s up for debate if he intentionally left things out or just overlooked it, but there’s no evidence of that at the moment.

What’s the difference @squirbel? Again I ask, shall we wait for the Kool-Aid to be poured before acknowledging a crime is being committed?

What support did he claim to have @comicalmayhem? And you’re talking to the wrong guy about biblical research friend. I’ve read three different versions cover to cover and studied it for three decades. What would you like me to research exactly friend?

No, but I wish he could be. And if it were up to me I would sentence him to save himself from the judgement of the lord and everlasting damnation as proscribed in scripture, Matthew 25:31–46, to be precise and he would have to take all his money and use it to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, to visit the sick and imprisoned, to provide shelter for strangers and to clothe the naked. These people pick and choose what parts of the bible they want to believe and seem to have a real blind spot when it comes to the passages that actually require work, effort, sacrifice and just plain human decency on their parts. All the money spent on this stupid nonsense could have been used to do some real good for some real people who are enduring real hardships. So, Reverend Camping, you might want to refresh yourself on the following bit of scripture, you raging hypocrite:

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

@everephebe you can’t blame religion for what this man predicted. He alone is responsible for what he said. It says in the Holy Bible that no man knows when the rapture will come. This man ignored that verse in the bible. You can’t outlaw religious parents teaching their religion their kids. I really don’t think he should be prosecuted because he didn’t cause civil unrest.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Research his support. Not the bible. His support based on the bible. You are trying to tell me that he had no support and you think knowing everything about the bible means you know what he tried to support, yet you don’t even know the guy’s claims!
facepalm

I am asking you if he is on par with those guys.

The simple truth is that he is not.

Those men led people away, to secured compounds.
Those men brainwashed their followers.
Those men abused their followers.
Those men killed their followers.

Harold did none of the above. Those actions are gross, and uncivillized. Harold camping rented radio stations and put up billboards and buses.

Again I ask. Is this guy on par with Jones, Applewhite, and Koresh?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

Yes @squirbel, I believe he is. Specifically because his fiasco misled many in the name of a particular religion that doesn’t teach anything close to what he claims it did. Having it lead to death is just a word away.

Yes @comicalmayhem, I know he has his reasons. But if his reasons are not part of biblical teaching, then his reasons are not supported by them. Yet by claiming otherwise, he is fraudulent.

” I ASK YOU, am I missing something here? ” <—- You asked. We answered. You choose to ignore and not even possibly consider what has been presented. 70+ responses, lol!

Ehh, who cares? I’m done talking about this guy.
He’s just a crazy old man. That’s all.

I think so too, @AshLeigh. :)

People have quit their jobs and left their families to get this message out.

Just listen to the lives this has affected.

If you’re tired of hearing about this guy, then plan on hearing more from him and many others like him until someone stands up to acknowledge that misleading people to the point of changing their lives is wrong, a crime, and should be punishable accordingly.

So we should go after the birthers, as well, don’t you think @RealEyesRealizeRealLies ?

For what? How has that changed peoples lives to the point of leaving families, canceling retirements, wasting savings…? There is no debate as to whether these things have happened or not. They have.

The birther debacle is a legitimate debate. I could care less either way, but I know there are those on each side of the argument who believe they have legitimate cause to hold their positions, and they don’t need to butcher the teachings of any particular religion in order to make their position heard.

Did Harold Camping make those decisions for those people? Did he tell them to give up those things? Or did he, in fact, discourage such actions?

The birthers have made their own religion. They have a faith system. It is faith, because it is not based on fact. Therefore, the correlation drawn is extremely valid.

Get some glasses, @RealEyesRealizeRealLies. Your eyes are suffering.

Bottom line, some nut is always predicting the end of the world. People choose to believe it or not believe it just like every thing else someone may say. Predicting that the world will end involves an event that is so obviously not going to happen that I don’t think it could be considered fraud. People will believe all sorts of foolishness. Every single prediction about the end of the that has ever been made, each and every stinking one of them, in the entire history of these predictions, has not come true, obviously. If people continue to believe that any of these predictions are true then they have only themselves to blame, it think.

That’s cute @squirbel. Alas, I’m not the one to debate the birther debacle with you. I just don’t care either way. It’s not hurting anyone. And lest you think me foolhardy, it must be stated that I’m also not the one who will blindly take your word for it either. Doing so would force me to exhibit faith in someone I have absolutely no reason to have faith in.

Trite little comments about my user name, or my need to visit an optometrist reveal an attempt to conceal a weakened position. If you’d like to stick to the issue, without resorting to under the cuff remarks verging on insult, such as @comicalmayhem demonstrated multiple times by calling me “ignorant”, then I’d be pleased to discuss this subject with you further. If not, then kindly know that you have been heard, acknowledged, and considered with as much reason as I can muster for your comments.

Hey thanks for your participation @comicalmayhem. I’ve learned a lot from you!

@comicalmayhem Seriously, we don’t tolerate name calling on here.

If you’re concerned about the people whose lives where directly damaged by this whole fiasco, prosecution under criminal court isn’t the avenue. Rather, those people need to sue in civil court.

The clowns who followed him will probably get him one way or the other.

I watched the segment about the geezer who wasted his entire savings (about 150000 quid) on doomsday flyers. This is just sad.

Part of the reason his beliefs were made so public and successful were threads like this that fueled the fire. He had the money to start this and then the supporters of this and people that aren’t even supporters spent their time talking about it and it became a situation that got blown out of proportion. I think we should just be happy today wasn’t a zombie apocalypse :)

“There’s a sucker born every minute” -P.T.Barnum ;)

@Mikewlf337 “you can’t blame religion for what this man predicted.”

I can’t? Like, I’m not allowed to as an individual? That’s rather repressive.

No, but people who believed him should probably be institutionalized.

He made a prophecy that turned out to be false. Per the Mosaic Law, he ought to be stoned to death. I can’t honestly say that I’m entirely against the idea – it would keep the likes of Camping from making stuff up.

Should Obama be held responsible for the words he speaks?

don’t see any promises kept on that list. hmm

Camping should be mocked and laughed away, as well as anyone else who can’t stand by their words.

Actions speak louder than words. Please don’t fuck with my right to free speech.

I’m inclined to entertain your proposition @Nullo. There must be a precedent somewhere to support a legal action against him. I’m tempted to take him to court myself just for the stress he brought upon my children asking about the prophecy.

I have no desire to fuck with anyone’s free speech @jonsblond. I don’t want to deny accountability either. People can lie in court, but they will be held in contempt. People can slander, but they can be sued for it. Let anyone say anything they wish. Let them also be held accountable for it.

No. It’s punishment enough to go to the extent he did and then come out wrong. He was simply spreading untrue information, it wasn’t particularly dangerous, and the truth revealed itself and revealed he was wrong. End of story.

The fraud would be if possible, the fact that this piece of garbage is sitting on top of 72 plus millions in contributions and new that he was intentionally deceiving people with the intent to benefit himself. The other interesting matter would be if his “church” so to speak is recognized as tax free and if not where F is the IRS?

@everephebe it is rather oppressive to want to make it illegal for a religious parent to teach their kids their religion.

@Mikewlf337 When teaching=forced indoctrination I have to strongly disagree with you.
I was abused by religion and religious people as a child, children are innocents, they should really be left the fuck alone.

@everephebe I strongly disagree with you. A religious family has every right to teach their kids their religion. To deny them that is a violation of the right to freedom of religion. Just because you don’t believe in a religion doesn’t mean that everyone else has to abandon their beliefs.

So what you’re say is you’re pro-child abuse???

I never said there was anything wrong with sharing your personal beliefs with children. But forcing it on them is very wrong.

@everephebe It is not abuse to teach a child religion. It has help me and many other children and many people in general. I have seen people who lives were saved by religion. It gave them hope when they had none. Not every religious person falls into your definition of religion.

When did I say, “let’s eradicate religion”???

I just said forced indoctrination was wrong. When does forced indoctrination help anyone out? Are you for forced indoctrination??? Sharing personal beliefs is vastly different then teaching, in my opinion.

If you are teaching a child about all religions ok, cool. But if you are teaching them that your personal religion is fact and nothing else is true, including science… that’s abusive in my book. (The good book.)~ And my personal opinion on this, isn’t going to repress anyone.

My definition of religion is probably more or less the same as Merriam-Webster’s. So I am not understanding your last sentence at all.

If it “help” you then that’s fine, but allow other folks to help themselves. I have seen religion destroy lives far more than I have seen it help anyone, in my personal experience. But that’s irrelevant.

@everephebe I have seen it help more lives than destroy. Of course since you don’t like religion, you look at the bad more than the good.

And maybe vice versa? ^
Who said I didn’t like religion? I actually enjoy studying religion and religion has been big part of my life.

@everephebe You posts on this thread says otherwise.

Wow @everephebe and @Mikewlf337, could you guys get back to the original topic? If you want to debate how religion helps/hurts children, start another thread.

@Mikewlf337 Then don’t misconstrue what I say, because you’ll be honestly mistaken again.^^

@chyna sorry about that. @all sorry going off the original topic.

@chyna since fraud freaks fanatics and fuckheads are all topics, take your pick, we’re still on topic.

My point in a nutshell:

-Harold Camping had actual religious proof that DID follow the Christian Holy Bible.
-Camping left out some things that would rather disprove his theory of the end of the world.
-Camping’s religious proof that backed up his theory was still valid, regardless of things he may have overlooked or left out on purpose.
-Whether or not he left out that “only God knows when doomsday is” on purpose or not is up for debate. We can’t know for sure unless he admits to it OR if there’s proof that he wasn’t sincere on his theory and did it for selfish causes.
-Right now there isn’t any legitimate proof that he did it for selfish causes that cannot be cataglorized as a conspiracy theory.
—Cataglorized is not an actual word, but whatever, you get what I mean.
-What Camping did was legal because he had religious reasons to believe his theory and we cannot know if he has committed fraud or not.
-Shouting “Fire” in a theater when there is none is not the same as announcing a doomsday when there is none. Announcing a doomsday has religious or otherwise historical proof. In this case, there wasn’t any historical proof. Shouting “Fire” when there is none does not have any proof whatsoever if there clearly is none. If you say “Someone is going to set the theater on fire tomorrow” and back it up with evidence, then it is like what Camping did. Warned the people because he had a reason to believe his theory. He didn’t say “doomsday is right now… LOOK OUT!!!” he said, “doomsday is in like 5 months and the rapture is in like a week. prepare yourselves” and backed that up with evidence.
-He felt he needed to advertise his theory to the people, not to warn them, but to unify them, as they couldn’t prevent what supposedly was going to happen.
-Whether or not you think he had a reason to believe his theory, that’s how it stands to the public. Then again, he could just be a lunatic. He’s like what, 80 now? You never know what could be going on in his brain.

We cannot/should not pass laws to protect every fool on earth. Freedom of speech is a rather big issue in the USA. I can’t believe this silly thread has gone on this long.

I don’t understand why anyone would give him money if the world was going to end, WTF was he going to do with it?

I heard he died anyway.

late to the party, but…..

You and I believed he was wrong just as he and many others believed he was right.

We only __know__ he was wrong because it didn’t happen.

You can’t save people from themselves.

Litigation won’t really help except to set up a strawman