@tedd,
I’m a complete moron for insuring my families well being? You’ve proven your stupidity yet again.
@cazzie,
I’ve read your link, and it seems you’re the one who’s completely misinformed.
The point that the writer glossed over was that the post office, post roads, army, and navy were all essential elements of inter-state relationship and transaction between the states so as to ensure common defense and communication to create and sustain the states and the country.
These services were not being offered to the masses. These services were being offered at a national level to the states.
The Constitution defined the power relationship between the federal government and the states.
The author really needs to define ‘socialist’ as he labels everything the federal government does as socialist. The real truth is that most federal tasks such as implementing a national road system or waterway systems were done to foster competition and enhance individuals’ abilities to compete across state boundaries. The author seems to be letting his personal ideology get in the way of historical facts.
The founders were not defining the relationship between the federal government and the masses.
The Constitution left it to the states to determine issues such as health care.
The founding fathers (i.e. Madison, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, Washington, et al) did not “set up” our tax system at all beyond excise taxes and tariffs. In fact, for the first 100 years of our republic’s existence, we did not have any federal income tax.
The 16th Amendment—not the original Constitution or the original first ten Amendments written by the Founders—was ratified in 1913, which for the first time granted the federal government authority to levy an individual federal income tax on citizens.
Section 8, which explicitly says that those taxes, duties, imposts and excises must be uniform throughout the United States. This section does not refer to the federal income tax.
Our current federal income tax code doesn’t derive it’s authority from Section 8; it’s based on the 16th Amendment, because our progressive tax code isn’t uniform throughout the United States (which would be a violation of Section 8).
If Section 8 covers it, then why did they go to all that trouble back in 1913 to pass a Constitutional Amendment in order to institute the income tax?
The founding fathers wanted a republican form of government. That is absolutely required of the federal and all state governments. That is the limit of the ‘type’ of government they required.
The founders wanted limited government. They accepted that the federal government would have to do certain things. They enumerated exactly what those were in the constitution. The bill of rights was not even supposed to be necessary. The argument was that unless a power is specifically enumerated, the government does NOT have the authority to act, but many were afraid of the government and insisted on the bill of rights. Anything not specifically enumerated is left to the states.
If you read the constitution you will notice certain things like:
“To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;”
”...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.”
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated…”
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
The founders obviously had a capitalist leaning and respect for private property and private production.
While things like military, immigration, post office, judiciary system, prisons, and certain specific other institutions are listed for the federal government, those listed are supposed to be the ONLY things the federal government does. The states are supposed to do everything else unless there is a constitutional amendment giving the federal government the authority, and those things listed are largely not socialist. A fire station run by the government is not an example of socialism. That is a misnomer. Socialism is when the government controls something that is marketable and can exist in the market without the government control. If the government takes over the oil industry that is clearly socialist. If the government creates the military that is just government because a standing military has no way to exist in the free market, so it’s not socialist.
Further evidence can be seen from the discussion from the founding fathers. They already thought the constitution created a limited government. Conservative is not a meaningful adjective, it’s not useful. Limited is the key component.
Many of the founders did not, for example, think the 2nd amendment was necessary. The 2nd amendment acknowledges our pre-existing right to keep and bear arms and tells the government in specific terms not to mess with those rights. This amendment was thought unnecessary because the founders thought that since the constitution did not specifically say arms could be regulated, that meant the federal government could not regulate them at all. Knowing the history now, you can see how the government has disregarded the fact that unless the constitution specifically gives the government a power, it doesn’t have that power. And you are reading the constitution the same (incorrect) way when you ask me to find where it prohibits something. If the government wants power it must ask for it through a constitutional convention.
It is government control of the means of production. An endeavor that cannot be supported in the private market is by definition non-productive. Therefore having the government do it is not socialism. Just because you pay for something with tax dollars does not make it socialist. If that were the case then the existence of any tax for any service would be socialist, even just paying the president for being the president would be socialist. That is simply not the case. That is popular misrepresentation of socialism and it is incorrect.
The author should read more about the founding fathers debates, the federalist papers, and some of the personal writings of the founders. Some other points:
1. The preamble is not a directive to the government. It does not carry the legal standing of the body of the constitution. It merely states the context or purpose of the document. This is well established legal president.
2. Public and higher education are not enumerated powers and are not supported by “To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;” This section of the constitution creates copyrights and trademarks to empower capitalism and free market. You have totally misread what this says.
3. Public roads, public libraries, and fire departments are not enumerated powers. The federal government does not have this authority. The states do.
4. If the right to life were held as you infer, then every time someone dies that would be unconstitutional. That “life” part is in the preamble and is not legally enforceable, it is context for the constitution.
5. The government has NO constitutional rights. It has delegated powers as explicitly listed in the constitution.
6. The defense of the country you allude to is specified as “To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions”. That hardly allows the government to take over energy companies. Those companies are privately owned and cannot be declared enemies and taken over because you don’t like the prices. Market driven prices are not an insurrection or invasion. The government has limited authority to regulate commerce. That is all.
Founding fathers quotes:
“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.” — Thomas Jefferson
“A wise and frugal government… shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” — Thomas Jefferson
“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” — Thomas Jefferson
“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” — Thomas Jefferson
“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” — James Madison
“[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.” — James Madison
“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions.” —James Madison
“There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.” — James Madison
“I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it.” — Benjamin Franklin
“The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself.” — Benjamin Franklin
“Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide.” — John Adams
I found no indication that the founders were supportive of socialist ideas. In fact almost all discussion is to the point of limiting the federal government powers and empowering private citizens.
The government defined in the constitution is a republican form of government (Not republican party, republican governance).
_“Section 4 – Republican government
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.“_
The government is limited by the constitution and is not legally empowered to do anything not specifically enumerated in it. The fact that people like you exist is exactly what the founders feared the most and it’s why the bill of rights was added. The bill of rights is all we have left now and that too will be eroded over time. It is the natural progression of society as we move more toward a pure democracy and eventually vote ourselves into ruin.
“Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide.” — John Adams
You are supposed to read it with the perspective of “what does this say I am allowed to do.” You do not read it with the perspective of “what does this say I cannot do.”
There are some socialist programs, but they were not enacted by the founders, and just because something is enacted does not mean it is constitutional. It is the natural course of a government to continually centralize power within itself. Even the founders knew the average citizen was essentially powerless, that’s why the bill of rights is in there.
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