Dog trainers: What works better? Consequence training, or reward training?

With my dog,alittle of both,but alot more reward based as she is a sensitive dog.
I do not think choke collars are cruel.We don’t even use one anymore.She is always off leash and is a good dog:)
When are you getting your pup?

You have the terminology a little off.

All behavior has consequences; that’s part of the ABC behavior chain. Antecedents (what comes before the behavior, what triggers the behavior), behavior, and consequences (what comes after the behavior.)

Consequences can either strengthen a behavior (reinforcers) or weaken it (punishers.)

We want to strengthen trained behaviors. Therefore, we want to reinforce them.

Positive reinforcement always works better as a training technique than punishment.

It’s all about reward, and the reward can be anything ranging from a treat to a pat on the head.

Dogs are pack animals and want nothing more than to be part of the pack. You, as “alpha dog” need do little more than to let them know when they do something that pleases you and they will generally repeat the behavior because it’s in their nature to do whatever they can to please their leader.

To expand on what @syz said.

When you ask a dog to “sit,” there is only one way to do it right. There are 50 million ways to do it wrong. If you reinforce the correct sit, you’ll get a lot farther than punishing everything that is not a sit.

@lucillelucillelucille Soon. I was looking at the new skete pups, but I would need a few more months before I could afford one. I think afound two breeders here in ohio that are good. Both European line German Shepherds.

@crisw Good point. So you are saying that a mixture of both punishments and rewards? Like @lucillelucillelucille?

@syz That is what I have been reading, but I wanted to see what the reality was. :)

@crisw Ah. What about choke collars? Cruel or no? What about getting them to stop chewing and what not? Reinforce thenon-chewing behavior?

@mowens – Regarding German Shepherds. I have a German Shepherd mix. She is a very good dog, but a bit on the “assertive” side (not in the vicious sense, but in the sense of having a dominant personality). As I understand it, this is a German Shepherd trait. They are rather military in their attitudes in that they want a very clear leadership structure and they feel it is their duty to step in and provide said structure if the current leadership isn’t filling the role adequately.

@lucillelucillelucille And I cant wait. :)

@crisw

Punishment is a tool in the trainer’s toolbox, but it’s one to be used sparingly and only when necessary; never as a first resort. When punishment is used, it must be immediate, directed at the punished behavior, and large enough to be effective. If the animal continues the punished behavior, then punishment didn’t work. The very definition of punishment is that it reduces behavior.

I don’t like choke collars- they usually are more like “strangle collars.” If control is absolutely needed, a prong collar is more effective and kinder. Neither is my first choice; neither really teaches the dog not to pull in situations when the collar isn’t on.

As far as chewing- first of all, never leave pup unattended with chewable items around (that’s why, in the other thread, we all recommended crate training!). If he gets to something chewable, it’s your fault, not pup’s. Second, supply plenty of intended chew items, and reinforce, reinforce, reinforce appropriate chewing. If he does get something he shouldn’t, never punish him- you’ll just train him to steal things and hide with them as he chews them. Train him to give you anything in his mouth when you ask for it . Start by giving a great reward, like a piece of cheese, in return for an item that he has that is of less value (like a stick.) Teach him that it’s always good to give you what he has.

@crisw Good points… Thank you.

Reward based has worked wonders with my 5 mo old mixed breed. I also know understanding the temperament traits and behavior profile of the breed goes a long way in knowing what to expect from your dog. But my Sadie in just 2 months of owning her walks off a leash at my heel. Treat training was the way I get her to do this, no choke collar needed.

To expand on what @crisw said about getting the pup to give you anything, also do this with his food early on. I have always trained my dogs to let me take food out of their mouths from a very young age, it really establishes you as the alpha. I never did that with rewards, I only did it with their regular food (and only with kibble because, well, yuck if you use anything else). I don’t do that with reward treats, because I want the puppy to appreciate that the reward is all his, but I could if I had to. Being able to take something out of his mouth may save his life some day.
—I’m really getting excited about your pup, @mowens!

@JilltheTooth

Yes, absolutely. This can also save pup’s life if he gets ahold of something like rat poison and you need to get it away from him!

Whatever works better for you and your dog.

My dogs had haltis and they hated them. They now have choke collars and never pull they walk beside me always. I also tried the positive redirection training and they got extremely excited and aggressive and even impatient. So I decided to become their leader w/out any help but my own attitude. If they don’t listen we do it over and over until I get the intended result. Something like that anyway. I never hit them, I don’t yell at them, and if I feel upset I don’t deal with them at that time either. They always have a daily walk of 1&½ hrs. A tired dog stays out of trouble, it is true my dog chewed everything in sight before we started the walk ritual…
“I took my dog for a walk… all the way from New York to Florida… I said to him “There now you’re done.”
~Steven Wright
“My husband and I are either going to buy a dog or have a child. We can’t decide whether to ruin our carpets or ruin our lives.”
~Rita Rudner

I tethered our dog to me and then used clicker training. I found positive reinforcement much faster than negative reinforcement. I felt better about it too.

@tranquilsea

“I found positive reinforcement much faster than negative reinforcement.”

I just wanted to address this as it is a very common misconception. Negative reinforcement is not punishment.

As I mentioned above, reinforcers strengthen a behavior, punishers weaken it. Both reinforcement and punishment can be negative or positive.

Negative= something is taken away from the environment

Positive= something is added to the environment

So, there are four quadrants to the spectrum of consequences.

Positive reinforcement= adding something that strengthens behavior
Examples- giving a dog a treat for sitting, giving a child a sticker for cleaning up her room, praising an employee.

Negative reinforcement= taking away something and thus strengthening behavior
Examples- removing your hand from a hot stove, stopping collar pressure when the dog stops pulling

Positive punishment= adding something that weakens behavior
Examples- Jerking a prong collar, zapping a dog with an electric collar, scolding

Negative punishment= taking away something and thus strengthening behavior
Examples- Ignoring a misbehaving child and thus taking away attention, time out

Here is a question to the other dog owners out there. What would you do or how would you “correct” my dog to stop her from going in the rabbit cage and eating the rabbit food?? Aside from keeping the rabbit caged closed.

@Cruiser-
My choc lab always eats my black labs food, I mean she will try to just push him out of the way just to eat it on him. I have to catch her in the act and then as she going to do it I say Eh! firmly and plant my body in front of his bowl. She leaves it alone after a few times she really doesn’t bother anymore.

Aside from that dogs are scavengers and if you can’t keep an eye on it, it probably is best to keep the cage closed.

Also Im not sure what’s in rabbit food but my lab also had a desire to eat cat food which I cured giving her banana as treats?? Go figure. I’m told it’s because she was probably missing some potassium which is high in cat food.

Weird since she almost died from some thing she ate which we later found out she has a sensitivity to regular ingredient dog food and does very well on a Limited Ingredentient Diet.

@lucillelucillelucille Yes. It is soooo nerdy. I am going to name it (he or she) “Garak.”

It is my favorite character on Star Trek.

I am aware that is sad.

@mowens : Not sad! Not sad! He’s one of my faves, too! I’m such a geek that I once named a dog “Gallifrey”. I was always a little embarrassed when I had to explain it.

@JilltheTooth At least I am not alone in my nerdiness. My cat is named “Darius.” I named him when I was like 12… and it was after my favorite character from Highlander.

I later found out that it was a king in the bible, and I told people that I named him after that guy!

I agree with @syz as per usual