Mainly for those who are liberal about sex: Does abstinence only deserve a second look?

I think it’s disregarded now because we have condoms, the pill, the shot etc etc. We’re told some of these methods are 99.9% effective, and that’s a lot lol. If we had a 99.9% chance of winning the lottery, or getting a good job, people would take whatever chance there is. We still have sex for pleasure. Masturbation and the like can’t recreate the actual feeling.

I think it unworkable and unrealistic to promote as anything but an ideal. I simply isn’t something everyone can or would be able to do. I think if we as a society want to reduce abortion, STDs, unwanted pregnancies and teenagers becoming parent we need to be realistic about sex and do more to promote, educated and provide birth control and condoms. It is unrealistic to promote abstinence as public health policy. People, teenagers are going to have sex whether any one likes it or not. Bristol Palin was raised by parents who taught abstinence, believed it was the way to go and she shared the same values as her parent. If promoting abstinence didn’t work for her, coming from that background, who is it going to work for?

I vote for serial monogamy. It is the best of both worlds.

Ok, these thoughts are all very new to me… So I’m not even quite sure if or why I disagree with some of the things you have all said so far. So, this may be a little crude and off the cuff.

@Blackberry “Masturbation and the like can’t recreate the actual feeling.” ... I would say that memories of the actual feeling cant recreate it either. Even when the sex lasts a long time, it is soon over.

Do you think there is any chance at all, that you are perhaps a little like a junkie in denial, constantly seeking the next fix? ... I mean no offence with that analogy, it is only for sake or argument.

@lillycoyote what about for older people? Personally, I would be quite content to just hold the hand of someone I have feelings for, or spend time talking to them. I know from experience I would have an urge fighting me on it, but would it not be so much easier to just ignore the urge?

Also, I think the urge is some what deceptive. Maybe it is because I am highly stimulated by visuals, but the kill never quite matches up to the chase. The memory of what happened is never as good as the vision of what could be.

By the same logic, we shouldn’t drive because we might get into a car accident. Or we shouldn’t walk under big and old trees because a branch might break off and hit us on the head. Or we shouldn’t ever have a real Caesar salad or tiramisu because the raw egg might poison us. Life has risks, and you try your best to mitigate the ones you can and reduce the risks where reasonable, but it’s all about finding a good middle ground for yourself between not taking too many risks and taking enough that you’re still living life. And really, why would you want to live a life in which you cannot have sex?

Am I correct in understanding that the only basis for your argument is about STD prevention?

I disagree with your statement that “you could get something and ruin your life.” You could get something, and you could in many cases treat it and go back to normal, or you can manage the disease just like people manage other diseases contracted other ways every day of their lives.

Sometimes STDs are deadly, and sometimes STDs are incurable. But most of the time, they’re just kind of a bummer.

Fact from fiction, truth from diction. Off the facts you state and the argument made, I do not think you are going soft for sticking to the obvious logic. Just because mankind is not logical nevertheless doesn’t change the logic. Abstinence would do as you say, take out virtually any chance of STDs, or pregnancies. How can it not? If you never fly a plane or jet, your chances of dying in an accident by aircraft is almost nil. It is easy to say you can’t stop horny teens from boinking like rabbits but we have the pill and condoms. Modern society had waved the white flag and acquiesced it can’t control its youth. The main thing is it has stop trying that hard.

One of the other reason is society while they surrender with the white flag want to use biology when it suits them and ignore it when it doesn’t. Teens are young adults; they are not children biologically. People who are parents have some need to keep their kids children as long as possible. This is were the page book of nature should be closely examined, once in the wild when maturity happens, animals mate. Chicks don’t make, neither do pups, only when mature do they mate. Society wars against biology and ideology. At the same time they bombard these young adults about sex they want to shield them from it all the while tongue in cheek encouraging it.

Abstinence has worked in many cultures for centuries, because the community or society as a whole worked to make it so. It won’t work here in the US in any great measure because society is too busy doing other stuff to get a firm hand on the issue, it is much better to acquiesce the fact and wave the white flag and try to ignore it as best they can.

@Aethelflaed I would have to say there is some bad analogy fallacy maybe going on with parts of your answer. Driving places is more of a need, while sex is more on a par with drinking or drugs. The risk is a selfish and largely unproductive one.

“why would you want to live a life in which you cannot have sex?” To avoid living a life in which you did have sex and regret it or fucked up bad or are full of fear.

@nikipedia Yes, for now my argument is held up by one column, STD prevention. However, I am considering putting in a new column, so I can hold it up a little with the ideology of true love, and meaningful relationship. But the thoughts are too crude to do so yet.

@poisonedantidote
No offense taken, there’s a reason why I felt compelled to stop playing video games, get out into the world and socialize lol. Maybe my memory hasn’t started to fade yet, but I still remember some sexual encounters like they were yesterday, but I also have forgotten some, so I see what you mean.

@Blackberry For me the memory fades very fast. Not just last time, but always.

My fonder memories, and more lasting memories, include things such as laying in bed with one arm casually under each others neck, as we lay on our backs talking. they include sitting close to someone I care for to keep warm on a cold day. The hardcore sex is soon lost in an ocean of visual memories, and no part of the hardcore sex memory stands out more than any other memory.

@poisonedantidote Yeah, I’d rather have sex and get an STD than spend the rest of my life clean but celibate. To me, that’s not a life worth living, nor is a life where I can never eat yummy foods, or sleep in, or for that matter, have a glass of wine… Sex is not on par with drinking and partying. Sex is how we create new life. Sex is how people drastically increase their intimacy. Not all sex is getting wasted and having crappy sex with someone you barely know. Now, I think there’s an argument to be made for making a serious effort to not have drunken sex with strangers, but that’s not what you’re asking about.
And no, driving is not a necessity. You can walk, take a bus, take the subway, have your family get you everything…

@Aethelflaed Keep in mind, that you would still be able to have sex. However you would need to be in a long term sex-free relationship for 4 months, so both parties could be tested before any sex.

If we put up with a few months without sex, and gain a clean relationship where there is sufficient trust as to go and get tested together, where there is such maturity and commitment, where is the heardship?

@poisonedantidote You do what you want to do. I’ll make my own rules about who and when I fuck. And it doesn’t take 4 months to get tested. You get tested 3 months after your last shag, and it takes a week at most to get the results, and then those results stay the same until you shag again, even if it’s 6 months in between lays.

@Aethelflaed Please note that I am not trying to debate you, I am extremely receptive to what everyone is saying, and am seriously considering everything you and everyone else says.

I am simply trying to put my new ideas up against some scrutiny. as for the 3 month vs 4 month thing… lets just say I like to over engineer, and be extra sure of things.

By your last answer I get the feeling I may have rubbed you up the wrong way, please know that this is not my intention at all.

EDIT:

Sorry if I came across as a condascending hypocrite. I can imagine what you were thinking.

For me personally, at this point in my life, abstinence is absolutely the best choice. I have some pretty severe health paranoia and you articulated exactly the problem sex would be for me right now: the grief it would cause me worrying about STDs or pregnancy, even if there only is a .01% (or whatever) chance with protection, would far outweigh the short period of pleasure. Plus I just don’t feel ready to get that intimate with someone, and I don’t have anyone in my life who would fill the role, right now. Anyone else can do whatever the hell they want, I really don’t care, but abstinence is what’s right for me right now. Someday I need to get over this health paranoia, though, and loosening up enough to have sex will probably be a big step towards that.

@poisonedantidote, driving is more of a need than sex? You can’t be serious. Driving is not a need… and to continue with your analogy, driving is a far more selfish and unproductive act than having sex.

I honestly don’t think you would be experiencing this much anguish if you didn’t feel a strong need for sex. Why do you insist on rejecting it? Sex is awesome.

@dappled_leaves The driving thing I am not so much interested in debating really, but most goods get shipped by a truck at some point, and I believe driving is vital to the way the modern world works. Cities, supermarkets, offices, they all depend on it. As for sex being a need, I can only really see it in terms of reproductive need, to continue the species, that would trump the continuation of a city easy, but sex is not reproduction is it. Anyway, lets just agree to disagree on the cars for now…

“Why do you insist on rejecting it?” I don’t see it like that at all really, I am looking at abstinence as a way of obtaining sex, clean, safe, on-tap sex. I am looking it as more a way to continue having sex, rather than a way of stopping it forever.

…If that makes any sense.

I think that abstinence should be thought of in a lot more depth than most people do. I think that since some people think abstinence is supposedly “impossible”, they don’t give it a second chance.

Now, I am not condemning sex before marriage, but I think that sex should be held until you are in a seriously committed relationship. I have tried both. I enjoy sex in a committed relationship with someone I truly care about. On the other hand, I have tried a one night stand once. I found it lacking in every aspect. That’s just my two cents!

I’ve found abstinence to be a good thing for my life on occasion and I was an adult the first few times I chose it. A few years here and there didn’t hurt me at all, kept me focused on what I really wanted and my slow evolution to get it.

@poisonedantidote If it’s “clean, safe, on-tap sex” we call it safe sex, not abstinence. Abstinence is actual abstinence.

I’d like to point out that “abstinence only” is the name of a teaching method, not a sexual practice. Furthermore, comprehensive sexuality education does teach abstinence. The problem with “abstinence only” is that it does not teach anything but abstinence. As I am not for reinforcing ignorance, I would like teenagers to have more information rather than less.

Regarding abstinence as a sexual practice, I’m not sure that anyone believes it should be a universal practice. There are people who choose to be abstinent their entire lives, and that is their decision. Whether they do it for religious or personal reasons, however, I don’t think they expect or even want everyone else to do so (with perhaps a few exceptions). As @Aethelflaed has just said, there is a difference between abstinence and safe sex. Being careful is safe sex, not abstinence.

@Aethelflaed You are either much smarter than me, or just made some logical error. I don’t quite understand what you are saying.

From my understanding, abstinence is usually something pushed by religious groups, with the intention of stopping people having sex until marriage. In my scenario, I am substituting marriage with any safe enough trustworthy partner.

I am not talking about chastity, if you have your abstinence/chastity cables crossed, that is where the confustion is comming from.

If its chastity we are talking about, I totally and absolutely agree with you.

Or am I missunderstanding you perhaps?

@CunningLinguist Ahhh, ok… substitute any part where I say “abstinence only” for just “abstinence”.

I am not in favor of only teaching kids abstinence, in fact I find the idea to be immoral.

I may be operating under poor vocabulary definitions here. :S

EDIT: I was using “only” as meaning “not trying safe sex a few weeks in to the relationship”.

The idea is to be able to have unprotected sex with a demonstrably clean partner, where any protection is stricktly intended to limit pregnancy.

In other words, you meet someone, you go out long enough that you both want sex, you then have the talk, wait a few more months, get tested, wait longer for results, and then proceed as a “married” couple.

just my two cents…I have 3 children between the ages of 22 and 24, and each of them is a virgin and intends to remain so until they marry. Abstinence IS possible.

I think it depends on the person. I would not want to practice abstinence.

@poisonedantidote Ok, abstinence in it’s dictionary definition is simply not partaking in whatever. Right now, I’m abstaining from sex so as to better not abstain from onion rings. However, that’s a very uncommon usage. When one says abstinence, one normally means purposefully not having sex either forever (celibacy) or until marriage (which is different from “no one around will fuck me”). Safe sex as a cultural idea is to be smart about who you have sex with and how you have sex. People differ on if that means for them personally waiting to have sex with a partner till they trust each other to be honest when they say they’re clean (perhaps showing each other the test results), or if that means using more birth control and especially barrier methods (condoms) when they don’t know each other very well. Safe sex emphasizes using both barrier methods and something like oral contraceptives or an IUD (both of which have better results in preventing pregnancy, but don’t prevent STDs) until you are in a point in your relationship where you can responsibly not use condoms and/or have decided to get pregnant. “Abstinence only” as an education method teaches that there is only one option, abstinence till you are married, discourages the use of birth control and even blatantly lies about it’s effectiveness and claims it’s less safe than no birth control, and treats female virginity as a commodity that both girls and boys must join in the fight to protect.

@snowberry Allow me to suggest that some children lie to their parents about their virginal status. And that the older virgins get, the more pressure they feel to get married to whomever or just loose their virginity already so they can continue to mature with their peers.

@Aethelflaed Just mentioning, I’m an atheist. When someone tells me “we are married”, I don’t really hold it that much higher than when they say “we have been going out for a few years”. If that helps put my POV across.

Regarding “abstinence only”, I now see I was totally wrong on my usage of that term. In my scenario, the pressure to abstain would come from ones self, once educated with all the facts, from where babies come from, to how HIV resists treatement and more.

EDIT:

—-Maybe even after having already had sex, or even potentially fucked up quite bad.—- what the… that edit made no sense.

@Aethelflaed so you think my kids are lying to me and all their friends? Some people actually know what integrity means. Actually they are quite inspired by their virginal status, and they are actually more emotionally mature than their friends. But you wouldn’t believe me.

Cars nowadays are quite safe. Crumple zones, seatbelts, airbags, abs, esp. Yet you can still die in an accident. Should you therefore stop driving altogether? After all, all the positives of driving a car do not outweigh death.
I don’t think so.

@ragingloli… Just putting it out there, I don’t have a car and don’t drive :P… but lets leave the car stuff for now lol.

@poisonedantidote Ok, I just saw this question and here is my most solemn response, What the fuck have you been drinking?!

@mazingerz88 Nothing. some “coolaid” maybe.

Despite what some of my previous posts may suggest, I don’t have an alcohol problem at all. I was offered alcohol today and just turned it down.

Just to clear that up.

EDIT:

almost 3000 answers, over 100 questions… 5–10 mentions of alcohol max.

@poisonedantidote Wait a sec, I do remember that question about your boss who loves to drink but no, when I posted my answer, I was not even thinking about that. It was a random joke, awful yeah, but random.

Regarding your question, I appreciate your sentiment behind giving abstinence a second look. Sweet, but not gonna happen in my most humble of opinions.

I am going to try to avail myself of some different words so as not to get caught up in some of the sideline discussions on the topic.

I think some of the confusion and disagreement comes from talking about sex without defining what we are actually talking about (thank you Bill Clinton). Depending on the age of the individuals and sometimes the gender, various activities that could reasonably fall under the umbrella-word “sex” do not necessarily require any type of protection (e.g., mutual masturbation, kissing, naked massage, etc.). I mention age and gender as it relates to the ability to limit one’s activities to the safer end of the spectrum that is titillating and might be considered by some to be foreplay to more “engaging” activities on the other end of the spectrum.

It might be easier, conceptually, to write out your own perceived continuum of intimate acts (from totally safe to decidedly not safe) and put a mark on the continuum. YOU decide the activities in which you wish to engage and those you’d rather not. This is, perhaps, easier for an adult who might have better awareness of some of the consequences of where they choose to place their mark. It is also a terrific jumping off point for parents to talk to their kids about the real diversity of choices in this conversation—it really is not an all or nothing discussion and to turn it into one can be confusing.

Now put this continuum of potential activities into the real world where there are power inequities, people who lie, people who assume they don’t have an STD because they have never been tested and didn’t have any symptoms, etc. You may leave your mark where you placed it on the continuum or you may choose to move it one direction or the other.

Now throw in the reservoir effect. Who comprises the pool of people with whom you plan to do these activities? People your own age, markedly younger or older, people who have done a great deal of travelling, people who are representative of any sub-group with high rates of STD’s, etc. This is not casting aspersions on anyone, but asking for critical thinking (e.g., there is an increase in HIV cases among those over 50, particularly straight women, who never learned about HIV because it didn’t touch their lives and now they are back on the dating scene after their divorce).

I think people need to make informed choices about what works for them. We each need to assess the levels of risk we can live with and be aware of the risks that make us uncomfortable and respect our own limits and those of the individual’s around us. These personal assessments need to be based on facts, can certainly be guided by personal belief systems, and should not be imposed on others.

I actually know a few women and men (more women than men for whatever reason) that were virgins when they got married. College educated men and women. Not all fundementalist Christians either. I know people who are now as young as 22 and 24 and just got married this year who were virgins. I think sleeping around is reckless. Not only physically; but emotionally as well.

@snowberry _I have 3 children between the ages of 22 and 24, and each of them is a virgin and intends to remain so until they marry. Abstinence IS possible. *ROGER THAT!! 1,000 lurve to you if I had ot to give.

What I have a problem with is when people are looked down upon for restraining from sex or being a virgin. There is nothing to be looked down upon. It is their personal choice and it may be the best choice for them. What I have a problem with are teenagers becoming pregnant when they clearly didn’t intend that—people who have little understanding of sex and acting only on impulse and may be too young to seriously consider it’s consequences.

What I don’t have a problem with is people deciding that they can have sex outside of a committed relationship. Take, for example, my friend, we’ll call him S. S remained a virgin until 2009 (much like me). He did not have a girlfriend until 2009. In fact, he did not have sex with his first girlfriend. They split up before that could happen, and it was a nasty split. He lost his virginity not long after that, though, with a girl who was also a virgin; they were both curious about sex; they were infatuated; they did it and they enjoyed it (this all comes from him telling me this, by the way). S tried several other relationships after this and they did not last long. He told me that he didn’t see the point of entering into a relationship if it was not going to last. He viewed relationships as only for the purpose of lasting, not for the sake of having a relationship or an excuse to have sex. That was his explanation for why he is okay with some casual sex every now and then. It’s not that abstinence is impossible, it’s just that for him, the risks of sex are not enough reason to practice abstinence instead; it’s worth the risk. And that is what I don’t have a problem with. If that works for you, then more power to you. For some people, the risk is too great. That is not a problem. For some people, the risk is worth it. That is not a problem either.

Sex is enjoyable; sex is pleasure. I don’t think we should have refrain from it because it is risky. Many pleasurable things we do are risky and sometimes, it is worth the risk.

Like any biological trait, sexual appetite varies among individuals; also, a person’s sexual appetite varies over with time. A realistic risk assessment would reflect this—the cost of abstinence may be prohibitive for some. Personally, I’m promiscuous—but only with clean girls.

I haven’t read all of the answers, sorry if I’m repeating anything. I think you might want to change the thought from ‘abstinence’ to ‘delayed gratification’. Flat out abstinence probably won’t work for very many people, but waiting (until the relationship is serious, until you can both be tested, until marriage, or whatever) isn’t a bad idea.

* rolls eyes massively *

@bob_ Me toooo! Our little exchange last night was moderated. Apparently the D word is more offensive than the F word that I see used here much too often. Go figure! I feel I was censured and my point of view totally disregarded.

<suddenly wondering what the D word is>

@Porifera Can you say what you want to say without using the “D” word? Is there a synonym, or is the “D” word a swear word? And yes, if it is a swear word, why do the mods pass the “F” word?

my father taught me to swear when I was 5. It goes like this: Oh crum-bum cruminently orchard grass!” It’s long enough that if you say it you’re generally not as mad as you were before you started

@snowberry I said what I had to say using the D word last night. I amnot repeating it. The mods didn’t like it, so be it. It is not a swear word, so it beats me why they deleted it. I will PM you guys the infamous D word , so that we can all have a laugh together.

<Holds head in her hands and mumbles: Where is @bob when you need him?>

@Porifera I’m here! I’m here! * jumps up and down waving arms *

They took my bluntness as a personal attack. The OP told me he didn’t see it as such, so, well, that’s basically it. They usually mod all the posts which made references to a previously modded quip, so that’s why our (thoroughly civil) exchange was modded (and which is why these quips will probably get the ax, too).

@bob_ It wasn’t a personal attack, you did clarify that…
Not a dull moment here…gotta go…hear more ax sharpening in the background.

Yes….What is the D word?

@Porifera Please, I would like to know the ‘D’ word I can’t use. I have been modded for using the ‘B’ word, and I know another was modded for using the ‘P’ word when it was scientifically correct to use in the contect of what they were talking about. With rather nebulous criteria and a domino sliding acceptance I am trying to complile a data base of just what one can and cannot do or say. ;-P

@Hypocrisy_Central LOL OK OK OK :))
I’ll PM you the D-word but only if you promise to send the latest edition of the FNAW (Fluther Non-Accepted Words)

@Hypocrisy_Central I think you can use the “B” word if you point out that it is actually an acronym for “Boys, I’m Taking Charge Here!”

And if @Kayak8 can use an acronym, so can I. The D word’s acronym might be, Distressed Underwater Mangoes Belch!

So from now on, when trying to insult someone we can use the acronym appropriate for the word. We can change ‘em to suit our mood, or the mod, whichever seems to fit at the time.

Now THIS sounds entertaining. Much more so than the typical conversation that happens around here.

Wanders Off Mumbling Acronymic Gibberish (WOMAG) <—-Wait, what’s that mean?

What the hell are the D & B words.

I think fuck is used way too much in here and should be modded along with poor grammar. It could be classified as lack of vocabulary.

Now as to the original question, women consider a similar situation each and every time they have sex, it is called pregnancy. And there is no 100% sure way of avoiding it except total abstinence. I think people, especially teens should be taught to think about that before they copulate (is that an acceptable word?). It should also be considered by those opposed to abortion because that is an option if pregnancy occurs and the woman does not want the pregnancy.

As an informed abstainer, I am permitted to react to most safe-sex exhortations like this guy.
Seriously. It’s printed on the back of my dirt bike license. :P

@Nullo So… is the dirt bike in this analogy your left or right hand?

@Nullo
Not a good analogy.
People usually do not infect their systems intentionally with viruses.
And linux still doesn’t protect you from rape.

correction:
Windows PCs use anti virus software to protect themselves from viruses while doing every day activities, like browsing the interwebs, etc.
You do the exact same things with Linux PC’s, so the only way that analogy would work is by being sterilised.

@dappled_leaves Doesn’t fit the analogy.
@ragingloli As usual, you over-extend the metaphor.

@Nullo Long-term abstinence is bad for your health. That’s one of those things abstinence-only programs never teach. In men, it can lead to prostate problems and an early onset of impotence. In women, it can lead to frigidity and never being able to enjoy sex or achieve orgasm. That’s what’s wrong with all the people who claim they are waiting so they can “really enjoy” sex: waiting too long can seriously limit your ability to enjoy it even once you get around to doing it.

@CunningLinguist Source?

@Aethelflaed I can’t remember what I had just read back when I originally wrote that answer, but here are a few things that a quick search turned up:

http://www.cancerepidemiology.net/article/S1877-7821(14)00155-6/abstract

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2006.097444

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02674659408409565