Was Jesus unjustly killed?

Jesus was charged with blasphemy against God and probably also other things such as stirring rebellion against Rome with His talk of bringing a new kingdom.

pssst. a lot of jellys live in southern california. you’re going to have to be more specific about which jesus you are talking about.

@Schroedes13 While that is useful information it fails to answer the question – “vague” , would you say?:)

@Blondesjon I can well believe it. :)

I thought he was killed for being a seditionist? Or spreading propaganda of some sort. If it was that, then yes, he was unjustly killed. Unless Jesus murdered someone, or touched some kids, then he was probably killed unjustly according to our laws now lol.

@throssog No, I answered the question with what He was actually charged with, however I should have used the caveat that I thought He could have been charged with the secondary crimes as well.

I just didn’t answer the second part, sorry. I would say that Jesus was not unjustly killed. He was brought up on charges of blasphemy by the Sanhedrin to Pontius Pilate. These charges were accurate under the Mosaic Law. Therefore, Jesus was not killed unjustly IMO.

@Schroedes13 Ah, you and I can agree on something – at last. :)
Odd, isn’t it that so few seem to realize that this religion was founded by a” capital offense guilty felon”, justly tried and convicted by a court of competent jurisdiction and executed for his crimes.
The only one I’ve found who “sorta-kinda” gets it is this fellow Rene’ Gerard. Odd, as he was a professor of literature not law. Have you knowledge of him/his works?
I do have to admit he goes , imho, overboard in his acceptance of his faith and it becomes the excuse for the scenario. However, he , at least recognizes that memisis was at work.

@Blackberry Sorry old son, not our laws that apply. Hebraic Law. The law under which he lived…and died.

no I’ve never heard of this author. I wish I had time, but I’ll put it in my list. I’ve already been told to read a few of Malcolm Gladwell’s books. But I’ll try to get Gerard’s in sometime in the near future.

Jesus was without sin when he went to the cross, so it was unjust in the eyes of man, but it was the will of God. Jesus took on all the sins of man, and was a sacrafice for us.

@filmfann I would say that Jesus was without sin, but he was still professing blasphemy according to Mosaic Law!

@ Schroedes13 I believe , the over zealous religion aside, you might find his mimetic thesis of some interest. Do, please, be sure to divorce it from the religious argument he attempts to “found it on/tie it to”. Should you get the chance I would love to know your thoughts on it.

@Schroedes13 “Without sin”? Hmmm, interesting thesis. Is it to be accounted religious truth or fact?
I am reminded of Twains’ caveat in this regard, hmm?

@Schroedes13 Don’t bother with Gladwell, he’s a hack.

@throssog I will definitely check it out. You’re piqued my interest.

Also, I think that anyone’s level of sin can’t be judged objectively. I am a Christian. From this standpoint, coupled with my readings of the Bible, I believe Jesus to be sin free. However, once again, I don’t think this can be proved as a fact.

@syz really? I’ve had some friends read The Tipping Point and Outliers and thought they were fairly interesting? Why do you think he’s a hack?

@Schroedes13 He’s very good at taking a basic (interesting) premise, formulating his own ideas, and then presenting them as scientific fact.

@syz so I can still read it, but just try and differentiate between his ideas and his “scientific data”?

@Schroedes13 Sure. He’s a pretty good writer, but after the having the same response to three of his books, I’ve stopped buying them. Besides, it’s always a good idea to be skeptical, right? Especially on the internet ;)

@Schroedes13 I’m with @syz on Gladwell, for many reasons. For starters, his writing style is excessively anecdotal, to the point of burying his thesis into oblivion. This creates many a New Yorker essay that, while entertaining to read, could easily have the meat boiled down to one paragraph without losing anything. And for another, he present scientific “fact” without backing it up with any real evidence. There are no citations, no sourcing, no statistics, no studies… He doesn’t discuss all the people who disagree with his premise, or really discuss the flaws in it other than to say “oh, but this isn’t foolproof, although you should still treat it as such”. I’ve stopped spending time and money on his work because it’s just too much time and too much money for so very little in the end.

@throssog Yeah, that sucks.

@Aethelflaed @syz ok thanks a lot! Unfortunately, I still want to read it though! ....urgh. Sorry, I’ll try one of his books and I will probably come up with the same conclusions that you two have already made. I am apologizing in advance!

@Aethelflaed @syz This is interesting, and if you two are accurate, it just shows how easily people are sucked into something because it’s been given great reviews. I’ve been to told to read his books multiple times. They’re so great and informative etc. They’re on lists of the best books etc. And apparently it’s possible he’s been full of it this whole time lol.

@Blackberry Read and decide for yourself.

@throssog I’d like to say I’ll get around to it, but I already have a large list lol. I read half of the Tipping Point, but lost interest, but I know that doesn’t count.

@Blackberry They’re really populist. They tell people (and by people, I do mean White People) what they want to hear – that our gut reactions will always be right and no further inquiry is really necessary, that it’s circumstances beyond our control that’s forcing us to live the life we are, and that if you just gave up all your material possessions and went and lived in a village in South America you could drink even more than you do now and not have a problem with alcoholism because it’s our culture that’s creating your problem and not you. And since he’s regularly published in The New Yorker, people often think it carries more weight than it does. So I’m not surprised he gets great reviews. And he does have an entertaining story-telling technique – I’d be a lot more interested in reading his works if I didn’t already have over 30 books to read for this coming semester and a Fluther addiction so I have to be a bit more discriminatory in what I read. But if you have the resources, definitely check him out – although, I think losing interest half way though is part of the problem I was talking about.

Jesus did not violate Roman Law, he was arrested at the request of the Pharisees for violating the Sabbath. He had performed miracles on the Sabbath (the healing of the blind man) in such a way as to violate the Law, and for that the Pharisees trumped up charges against him.

Pontius Pilate didn’t think it just, so he washed his hands of it. Did the Jewish community find it just? Hard to say. Those who did probably felt the threat that Jesus would upset the community was now gone. Those who thought it unjust probably became Christians.

He was also charged with blasphemy under Mosaic law, not Roman law.

Matthew 26.
59 Now the chief priests, the elders,[g] and all the council sought false testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, 60 but found none. Even though many false witnesses came forward, they found none.[h] But at last two false witnesses[i] came forward 61 and said, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.’”
62 And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?”
They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.”

@Schroedes13 Interesting “court transcript”. Odd that the King of the country wasn’t Jewish – don’t you think?

@throssog That’s what happens in an Imperial takeover. They don’t usually take kindly to native powers retaining much control.

@Schroedes13 No, they don’t but to appoint a king who was not Jewish (Harrod) ...hmmm? How short sighted. Given the nature of the populace and its history of hiring out as mercenaries.

Herod the Great was Jewish. But he held is power only by being in favor with the Emperor.

Nope, not at all. He had it comin’.

Jesus was killed?! My God, where was I-?!

The police are asking that, too, @mazingerz88.

@mazingerz88 That’s what the casey anthony trial was about, duh.

It’s ultimately a moot point; Jesus’ death and resurrection were crucial (hehe) parts of a much larger plan.
In terms of God’s moral standard, Jesus was justly killed, as He had at that point taken on the collective sins of Mankind, and, as it is written, the wages of sin is death. Which, again, was kind of the whole point. It’s a little like piling all of the household’s garbage onto a volunteer and sending him out to the dumpster.

@Nullo . . . isn’t that a bit like taking on all of the world’s cancer just to become a symbol for people who are still going to get cancer?

@Blondesjon Not quite; Jesus’ extemporaneity allows a sort of once-and-for-all solution. Just gotta hand over the trash, which a lot of people don’t want to do.

Rome was a cruel militaristic power. I don’t think Jesus was a Roman citizen so he couldn’t expect much in the way of justice.

@Nullo But why would I want my own trash dumped at him who did not make it?

In the Jewish law anyone who talks about Himself as being the Son of God commits blasphemy. And by their laws whoever does it will have to be punished by death. In their eyes that is a crime.

@zenvelo Actually there seems to be some contention on that point.

@zenvelo Just for “caca and cackles” :

Herod ruled Judea from 37 to 4 B.C. He came from a family that had been forced to convert to Judaism in the second century B.C., when the Hasmonean John Hyrcanus conquered Idumea. Herod’s father, Antipater, rose to power under Julius Caesar, who appointed him commissioner of all Judea, a position he exploited to advance the fortunes of his own family. Since the victorious Jewish revolt in 169 B.C. – the event which Hanukkah commemorates – the Hasmonean dynasty had governed the land. But subsequently the battles between the heirs of Queen Shlomzion Alexandra weakened the royal house and tore the country apart.
Nitza Rosovsky; NITZA ROSOVSKY is associate curator for exhibits at the Harvard Semitic Museum and author of ’‘Jerusalemwalks’’ (Holt, Rinehart and Winston).
http://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/24/travel/discovering-herod-s-israel.htm
Published: April 24, 1983

First of all, the question isn’t about sin. The question asks about criminal conduct. As others have already said, Jesus was accused and convicted of blasphemy by the Sanhedrin, the ruling legal body. They then took him to a Roman official to have the sentence carried out. So, Jesus was convicted of a crime against Mosaic, not Roman law.

As to His sin, I believe Jesus was sinless, up until he cried out “Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?” on the cross. This is where he received the sins of mankind.

Any person of peace, if they are truly a person of peace, is unjustly killed.

@Schroedes13 You mention the “Father, Father….” Do you know from whence it comes? Perhaps I should say: Do you know the source of the quotation? This Rabbi was an interesting and “quotatious” fellow.

@wundayatta Good friend, I will “go you one better” any person, who has their life taken by another is unjustly killed.

yes it’s from the Bible. You want the chapter:verse?

Luke 23
46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”[e] When he had said this, he breathed his last.
NKJV

@thossog Sorry, I actually combined the two different accounts of Jesus’ last cry. In Matthew and Mark, Jesus cries “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” and in Luke, He says the above statement. My bad.

I can hardly imagine the concept of someone being ‘justly’ killed. It just seems wrong.

@Schroedes13 Yes, I am aware that the cited statement of Jesus is from the New Testament.. My question , Forgive me the lack of clarity, was from whence did he get it? It was/is a quote and was to serve as a “short hand” reminder of the rest of the statement. Rather as one, today, might say “What hath this our Bush fed on….” in order to draw to the mind of an auditor the full meaning of the scene quote of Wm. Shakespeare’s play Caesar. “What hath this our Caesar fed on that he hath grown so great?”

@flutherother Does seem a bit hard to see, doesn’t it. But most reject “first principles” so they see so many “shades of grey” that justification(s) are easy to find and “situational ethics” become the order of the day, eh?

@throssog IMO, He cried that out because He was the Son of God. I once heard a sermon about him taking it from David in Psalms. I’m not sure though. I’d have to give that further research.

@Schroedes13 Save you a bit of time, if I may:

Psalm 22

1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

8He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts.

10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.

11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

20Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

21Save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

23Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

24For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

25My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

26The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

27All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28For the kingdom is the LORD’s: and he is the governor among the nations.

29All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

So David’s lament in Psalm 22. So if you already knew it, why did you ask?

@Schroedes13 Because I have come to like you and wanted you to be reminded of it or , if unaware of it, to become so. It is an important point/concept for understanding the status of Jesus and what he sought to get people to see and do and be. Poor lad, he didn’t have much of a chance. But he was game, eh?

@throssog I thank you for the reminder. I hadn’t heard that sermon in years and your question actually did make me look up the reference and I’m reading some interesting articles on why some believe Jesus made that statement!

@Schroedes13 Careful! It can get you into a lot of trouble :). There was once a Nice Jewish Boy…. :)

Jesus was not a sacrifice, he was a victim of an unruly mob. The trumped up charge was sedition because the Romans had to charge him with something. The Sanhedrin wanted to get rid of him because he was cutting into their prophets at the temple and for pure jealousy. Also the atonement is something created by Paul and invigorated by Martin Lurher. We aren’t saved through the cross/ it was the murder of an innocent man. We are saved through the empty tomb which is the vindication. Paul is just working through his guilt.

Also, Pilate could have stopped the execution but he was afraid of looking weak. In reality he was a coward. The Sanhedrin were behind the whole thing- just read John 12