Which is more reprehensible: a Racist or an Elitist?

Is it elitist of me to let you know you posted this in the wrong section?

Meta is for questions that have something to do with Fluther.

@FutureMemory Not at all my friend, not at all. How, if you would be so kind as to inform me, would I go about putting it where it should go?

Flag the question, explain you want it to go into the General or Social section instead of Meta.

Choose General if you want replies to be strictly on topic, Social if you’re open to humor and/or digression.

@FutureMemory Thanks! I am new here and do not, yet, understand all of the nuansceses of posting, etc. Appreciate the help and guidance.

[mod says] Moved to Social at asker’s request.

@augustlan Thanks! Am sorry for the inconvenience. Just wasn’t sure where to put it.

To actually take a stab at your question:

I would think racism is much worse. By your definitions, a racist judges someone on things the person has no control over, while an elitist judges based on things the person can control. Clearly the racist is more narrow-minded.

I agree completely with @FutureMemory. Neither are attractive or acceptable (in my opinion) positions to hold, but racism is based on factors outside of a person’s control. I wouldn’t necessarily say much worse, but definitely worse.

I have to agree with @FutureMemory and @ANef_is_Enuf. Neither is something one should aspire to, but the racist is worse, in my opinion.

@throssog No problem.

@FutureMemory My thanks for all of your help, Now, as to the “actual stab at the question” :). I wonder if the elitist doesn’t do something quite similar? Do they not judge by criteria that may be beyond the scope of the judged persons control? Such criteria as may be used may, in my estimation, be beyond a persons control. Intelligence, education, etc., often are, aren’t they?
Further, a racist can be educated out of their position by information or experience, but (big ‘but’ here) can an elitist?
@ANef_is_Enuf I post this answer to your comment as well.

@throssog is there a reason that you believe a racist can be educated out of their position, but that it is less likely that an elitist can be rehabilitated? (So to speak.)
Ultimately, it’s a similar mindset, even if the focal point is not the same.

@augustlan Ah, I can only say that I wonder if racism may not be a form of elitism we currently do not regard as such? Perhaps a bit of a ‘stretch’, by today’s standards of judgment, but I wonder. Given the criteria used by both…I wonder.

@ANef_is_Enuf Yes, there is/are. While I was in the military and in prison I associated with many persons of many ethnic/racial backgrounds and found them all to be quite human and individual destroying all of the preconceived notions I had brought with me. However, I also, by rank, associated with those who were dedicated elitists and were unable to see outside the world view they had adopted/been trained to. As I was in a…different sort of unit from the mainstream military rank had little to do with us and so it was not a factor in our activities/missions. It was, to say the least, educational. There was, however, a certain type/sort of elitism that our units did suffer from – we were the best at what we did and took great pride in that. A form of elitism but an earned form?? :)
In prison I found many fine people who were of very different ethnic/racial backgrounds who, like me, had had too many life experiences to adopt the attitude of “race first” that many prisoners have. We, the non-racists, tended to form a loose group of persons whom the BOP watched carefully, as racism is one of the major control tools of prison administration. It was odd to be watched and on “the list” for not hating. :)

Both views are wrong! To shed a negative light on someone because of a of a particular fixed factor, such as class or race, is ignorant and horrible

@Schroedes13 Well, hello my friend. While I may agree with you in your designation of both as “horrible” I must submit, that as with all things, there are degrees, no? It is the degree I question and the basis for so finding. I would delight in hearing your opinion on this.

Can you be more specific as to the degree aspect? Do you mean that there are degrees of racism or elitism and that some of them are acceptable?

@ No, not that some are acceptable but that there are degrees of harm, both to those discriminated against and those so discriminating. I postulate that the harms are co-extensive and that they have much in common. However, the question regards which is more reprehensible and asks for your rationale for so determining.

Elitists can be ignored….racism shouldn’t.

@Cruiser Hmmm, rather begs the question, wouldn’t you say?

In my opinion ( which most of you don’t give a shit about anyway ), both the racist and the elitist are equally culpable, since they look down on others, and do so for completely irrelevant and anti-democratic reasons.

They’re both manifestations of some really fundamental and ancient primate behaviors. The fact that our species has (just barely) begun to transcend them is actually quite remarkable. It’s a triumph of mind over impulse. In a way then, they’re not perversions, just evidence of our baser levels of instinct. I’m not sure that they’re not lurking in the underlying strata of even the most “enlightened” modern people; but some have developed to a greater degree the neocortical moxy necessary to override them.

But to adress the question more specifically, I think elitism is inevitable as long as there’s hierarchy, and we have yet to see a truly non-hierarchical society. There will, seemingly, always be ways by which we determine that some individuals are more deserving of special consideration than others. We simply keep refining the criteria so that they have more to do with “merit” (however we care to define that) than with accident of birth. Racism is just elitism based on an accident of birth.

Racism is much worse, and it’s amazing that anyone would think otherwise. Maybe I’m saying that because I’m an elitist.

Let’s compare.

Racism is the belief that a group is superior to another group because of skin color. This is reprehensible for two reasons. First, it is not based remotely on fact. Second, people do not choose their skin color.

Elitism is the belief that a group is superior because they are better educated or otherwise “civilized.” Unlike racism, this is clearly based on fact. An educated person obviously knows more and can make better judgments than an uneducated person on any number of subjects. And unlike racism, it is possible for an uneducated person to become educated (unlike a black person becoming a white person)—education can be a choice.

And I think it’s incredibly pernicious that so many people conflate elitism with racism. Beliefs and ignorance should be subject to criticism.

@Qingu An educated person knows more and can make better judgement? Knowledge and wisdom are two very different things!

I don’t think either of these disparaging views is better or worse than the other. Both of them are ignorant and saddening.

@Schroedes13, of course an educated can make better judgment. Compare the judgment of someone who knows a lot about economics and the function of government, and someone who thinks government should get out of their Medicare. I would even go so far to say that education is a prerequisite for good judgment. In order to make a wise decision about something, you ought to at least know the first thing about it.

And I think it is downright absurd, and frightening, that you don’t think there’s a moral difference between racism and elitism. Maybe we can put this in starker terms. Which person do you think is worse?

Person A: I think you are ignorant about subject X based on the demonstrably false statements you have just made.

Person B: I think you are biologically closer to a chimpanzee than to a human, based on your skin color.

No difference at all? Really?

@Qingu There are various ways of judging if elitist claims of being better are based on fact. Elitism may be factual but also factually irrelevant to civilisation or progress. The real progressivist or enlightened individual will leave whatever she encounters in a position better than when she encountered it the first time.

@atlantis, I’m not sure what your point is.

And I think basing your beliefs on fact is always better than basing them on falsehoods.

@Qingu I was reffering to your statement:

Elitism is the belief that a group is superior because they are better educated or otherwise “civilized.” Unlike racism, this is clearly based on fact.

It may be based on fact (education, exposure, etc) but that does not confer the connotation better. Do you think the highly “educated” wall street bankers would not know that selling sub-prime mortgages tranched in with other securities to give them A+ ratings was decidedly the wrong thing to do. And considering the bonuses their executives have gotten for passing on their debt to society, I would conclude that these come from the most elitist strata of our society.

Elitist has a negative connotation for this very reason. That it implies exclusivity and isolation from the vast hordes or masses.

The only person fit to be called better than others is one who has more humanity and feels the pain of the people around him.

@Qingu I don’t believe in degrees of negativity. I think as soon as one human being “looks down upon” another human being or believes themselves to be superior or better, then they are no better than animals.

@atlantis, I agree with you. Education is not the only component for morality or for making wise decision, and there are many examples of highly educated people who used their knowledge to take advantage of others. I would never say such people are “better” than others; in fact I’d say that they are worse than ignorant people making poor decisions because they should know better. They are predators.

But here’s the flipside. You can have all the empathy and human compassion in the world, and you can still make poor decisions. And a lot of people do. My point was that, all other things being equal, being educated is better than being ignorant.

@Schroedes13, you don’t believe in degrees of negativity and yet you are making negative judgments on other people?

And you think people who look down on others are no better than animals? Doesn’t that make you no better than an animal—since you’re looking down on such people?

There is nothing wrong with having intellect and having elites. But every human being has the same dignity and deserves the same respect. The garbage man, the janitor, the clerk, the teacher, the inventor, the Nobel Prize winner. As human beings they are all the same. And everybody contributes.

Everything is wrong with racism.

Do racists deserve respect?

I think they deserve rights and dignity, but not respect.

@Qingu , @mattbrowne @Schroedes13 , @atlantis , @thorninmud @CaptainHarley @Cruiser @ANef_is_Enuf @augustlan :
I want to thank you all for your thoughts on this question. I do fear, however, that there has been a tendency to regard each of the types, i.e., racist and elitist as though they a group…perhaps it would be seen/understood differently if they were to regarded as individuals?
Racism is a terrible burden for any who suffer from it – worse even than for the society at large ( unless it is the way of that society) and elitism is a worse burden and more dangerous one, imho, for the individual as it results in a form of blindness which society may encourage if the individual has some talents and education. What a waste,eh?
Again, thank you , all.:)

@qing I don’t personally regard them as animals no, but I’m saying that their actions are basic and primal. Animals set up chains of hierarchy and usually only kill outside of their own species/groups. This is exactly the way that elitists/racists act.

You are setting up a hierarchy by deriding these groups, with yourself above them. Hierarchies are unavoidable in human interactions because people are different. The question we should be asking is what hierarchies are actually justified, and what actions based on those hierarchies are justified.

Just because people are different doesn’t mean you can rank them!

@Qingu is an elitist.

But @Schroedes13, you are ranking in all of your statements. You are ranking people who are not racists above people who are; you are ranking non-elitists above elitists. We all make judgments, and there is nothing wrong with making judgments. The question is whether those judgments are justified.

@throssog You might want to look up the correlation between elitism and racism in post-modern, post cold-war era. Two peas in a pod.

Elitism is far, far worse. I’m not going to bother going into details because most people posting in the topic have no idea what elitism really is. The true elitist are the ones controlling the world, and they don’t give a fuck what color you are, if you aren’t a part of their bloodline or under their thumb, you’re cattle to them.

@syzygy2600, may I ask who you think these elitists are in particular? Jews? Reptile people?

If you’re talking about wealthy people, or the so-called “rentier class,” ... I certainly think they’re largely despicable. But I don’t think they’re monolithic. I think it’s ignorant and simplistic to say that there is a single conslidated “elite” who is pulling the strings of the world. And I certainly don’t think they’re as bad as the folks who actually institutionalized treating one race of people as actual cattle.

Yeah, cause clearly anyone who is willing to think outside of the box is either an anti Semite or some kind of tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist. Evidence of the power of the ruling elite is all around us, but most people are too afraid of the implications to accept it.

Racism is used as a tool by them to keep the lower classes from uniting. I’m guessing by your responses in this topic, you’re one of these people who gets their panties in a bunch over the fact that, on average, white people in industrialized nations generally make more money than the average black person. They created this problem due to institutionalized racism, and then they offer a solution to the problems they just created, such as affirmative action. Now, what happens? Impoverished black people will be angry because the average white person makes more money than they do. Impoverished white people will be angry because of affirmative action – and then we are all successfully distracted from the fact that 1% of the population has 99% of the wealth. In other words “don’t be angry at the people who ride around in limo’s and go home every nigh to snort coke off a hooker’s ass with a rolled up hundred dollar bill, be angry at the guy across the street whose been doing a little better than you, but is still probably thousands of dollars in debt.”

Also not everyone can afford a higher education, and not everyone who can afford to go to university should be put up on pedestal. I’ve met people (who you would probably never associate with) who don’t even have a high school diploma who are very intelligent, and I’ve also met people with university degrees who are dumber than a bag of shit.

I don’t disagree with a word you said; I just don’t understand how you’ve managed to conclude that there is a secret monolithic elite that is pulling the strings.

And I would also suggest that the means by which the ruling class (to use your oversimplified Marxist terminology) controls the working class varies quite a bit, and not all means are nearly as bad. Would you seriously argue that modern employees suffer nearly as much at the hands of the rich capitalists as factory workers did in the 1800’s? Let alone slaves in the 1800’s.

Maybe I came off as a little too harsh, since I basically agree with you. I just have little patience for lack of nuance.

Even racists are human beings. Their views can neither be respected nor tolerated. Racism is wrong. But human beings are capable of change. There are many examples of young racists who change their views when they meet people who also care about them as human beings.