Social Question

woodcutter's avatar

I want a serious answer. Can anyone tell me if the US military uses affirmative action when considering promotions?

Asked by woodcutter (16382points) July 26th, 2011

I expect this to be a short thread, and the question is self explanatory, and keep in mind this is in “general.” Flame baits WILL be flagged, OK?

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27 Answers

marinelife's avatar

No, they don’t.

Bill_Lumbergh's avatar

I can tell you for a fact (as a recent US Army veteran) that the US Army cannot and do not use affirmative action when considering promotions. I was in front of three review boards for promotions while I was in the service, and every one of them were 75% based on my expert knowledge of my MOS (Military Occupation Specialty), 15% the detail of my uniform (on-the-spot inspection of your Class A’s is required for a review board), and 10% on the confidence of my answers. These 3 items are all based on a point scale, for each reviewing officer/Non-commissioned officer to add to your review file. If you do not meet the minimum requirement with point totals for promotion you will not receive one. I received a promotion for all three review boards with excellent appraisals from my leaders.

My best advice is; study everything about your job (MOS) and have someone quiz you, do not lie with any of your answers to the review board (if you do not know the answe to a question, tell them you do not know, but that you are eager to find out),exude confidence, and double/triple check your uniform before you enter into the review. Please contact me with any other concerns you may have with a US Army military review board. Good luck!!

woodcutter's avatar

@Bill_Lumbergh Oh no I’m not in the military. I did serve for 4 years, back in the ‘70’s. I have a story to tell, after there are enough replies. You won’t believe this.

thorninmud's avatar

Well, yes. Take this, for example:

Because minorities are overrepresented in the enlisted ranks and underrepresented in the officer corps (compare Exhibits 3 & 4), the armed forces have focused recently on the officer “pipeline.” The services employ a number of tools:

Goals & Timetables: The Navy and the Marine Corps, historically less successful than the other services in this arena, have responded in recent months by setting explicit goals to increase minority representation in the officer corps. Both services seek to ensure that, in terms of race and ethnicity, the group of officers commissioned in the year 2000 roughly reflects the overall population: 12 percent African American, 12 percent Hispanic, and 5 percent Asian. Department of the Navy officials point out that this represents a significantly more aggressive goal than had been the case, when the focus for comparison had been on college graduates; the more aggressive goal implies vigorous outreach and other efforts (see below). Moreover, the Navy and the Marine Corps have set specific year-by-year targets for meeting the 12/12/5 goal.

Outreach, Recruiting, & Training: All of the services target outreach and recruiting activities through ROTC, the service academies, and other channels. Also, the services have made special, race-conscious (though not racially exclusive) efforts to recruit officer candidates. For example, the Army operates a very successful “preparatory school” for students nominated to West Point whose academic readiness is thought to be marginal; the enrollees are disproportionately but non exclusively minority.

Selection Procedures: All of the services emphasize racial and gender diversity in their promotion procedures. The Army, for example:

- instructs officer promotion boards to “be alert to the possibility of past personal or institutional discrimination—either intentional or inadvertent”;

- sets as a goal that promotion rates for each minority and gender group at least equal promotion rates for the overall eligible population; if, for example, a selection board has a general guideline that 44 percent of eligible lieutenant colonels be promoted to colonel, the flexible goal is that promotions of minorities and women be at that same rate;

- establishes a “second look” process under which the files for candidates from underrepresented groups who are not selected upon initial consideration are reconsidered with an eye toward identifying any past discrimination; and

- instructs members of a promotion board carefully so that the process does not force promotion boards to use quotas. Indeed, as Exhibits 5–7 illustrate, the minority and women promotion rates often diverge considerably from the goal.

(source)

Bill_Lumbergh's avatar

@woodcutter – I bet this story is going to be a good one! (thank you for your service)

woodcutter's avatar

@thorninmud Sigh, jesus christ its worse than i thought. I am really bumming out now, but I had to know . Thank you…..................goddammit.
Ok here’s the deal. Some time ago I contracted with a guy to prep and paint his house, no big deal. I don’t do a lot of these because they are always highly labor intensive and it really is work for a team of people to do, just to get it done in a reasonable time. Every now and then I make exception if the owner will agree to my offer. If they find my offer not to their liking, well then he gets someone else to do it. No problem, but there are some things that have to be understood on the front end before any deal is struck. Trust me there are a lot more ways, that are easier and more lucrative, to make a living.
This is how it has to be for me to do these; It’s going to be on an hourly basis, there are to be pay draws along the way so neither one of us becomes over extended, and the owner supplies all materials. All they are paying me is for my time.Also If he’s wanting this done quickly he needs to go elsewhere. I don’t have a magic pixie wand to go faster than one man can physically go. It’s really quite standard and plain and simple.
I’m going to post this now in case I lose it somehow, continue later.

woodcutter's avatar

@Bill_Lumbergh Thank you for that. Although it was a long time ago it still is good to receive thanks.

woodcutter's avatar

Ok I’m back. The person in question is a Major in the US Army, Stationed at FT Sam Huston, TX. The job, his house, is in OK, where his wife and kids stay. I don’t know the reasons for their living situation it’s really not my concern. And he happens to be a black man.
Here’s the situation. He is a very dismissive and condescending asshole I learned. Well he is an officer after all so some of that should be expected, to some degree, even though I am a civilian. No big deal as long as he pays on time….but he is not ,and that is real big problem now.
Just to be clear it is very disconcerting to any contractor who has performed work and not paid for it. It’s not like you can take your time back. He constantly lies about“the check is in the mail”...it never is. The man is terse with me as if I’m bothering him. I think his exact words were that he’s about had enough of my “fussing” about this. W T F?

woodcutter's avatar

This past Sunday it was agreed that i would drive to his house as he would up from TX this weekend, and he would pay me. Great, I live in the next town over so it will cost about 10 bucks in fuel to go round trip but by that time it’s not a concern. Just to be safe I called a knee capper to come with. So he hands me the check and the first thing he says is “you’re welcome.” Huh? What a dick.
After looking at this check it is looking like a 9 year old made it out- wrong date, two different amounts written,and with a sharpie. I’m thinking there’s no damn way a bank is going to process this.
So then he wants me to explain the terms again. This is also odd as I have gone over this at least 4 times before. He’s right there holding the agreement with everything in black and white so all I do is read off the paper. By now I’m really bothered by what I may have gotten myself into with this man, this major?? I’m starting to think he’s not even in the army and this check is a contrived document because this guy seems dumb. Posting

woodcutter's avatar

The check is still short of full amount owed but at this juncture it is better than nothing so I accept it. So at this time there still is more work completed then is compensated for. However I am ready to cut my losses just to not put myself in any unmanageable exposure. I’m not going to go back out there until the entire balance is received, I’m not. There is still a lot of money left in the job if completed. I’m going to work elsewhere were I will be paid, on time and he can go pound sand.
So this brings this back around to the question above: why is this guy behaving this way? Some things I have observed is, I have to repeat myself a lot, I mean it’s borderline ridiculous and very annoying. It’s like it goes in one ear and out the other. it’s like this man has no common sense at all. In my line of work there are some people in it that are sort of dim bulbs, I mean it’s not like you need to be a rocket scientist to do this kind of work but it has to be done well and that’s where they fail. I have had to work with some burnt up dope smokers who had more comprehension and memory than this major I’m trying hard to work with so I ask, how did he get this job?
I know here on Fluther one needs to be careful about topics like this but those who know of me understand I call em the way I see em. If you want a friend who is politically correct at all ,keep walking.
I think this guy got his position just because he’s black….there I said it. and what is even more bothersome is that he’s a high ranking soldier in our country’s military. That’s just down right scary to me and should be to all of us.

jaytkay's avatar

You are having a business problem with one person. Not a race. You should deal with the business issue at hand and not mix it up with your prejudices.

This has nothing to do with affirmative action.

marinelife's avatar

You are having a problem with a man:

1. It has nothing to do with him being black.

2. It has nothing to do with him being in the military.

3. If the guy was an asshole and he was white, would you think it was because he was white?

4. You are just looking for an excuse to take your pet racism for a walk.

woodcutter's avatar

@jaytkay He’s in the army as a high ranking officer and he’s stupid. It would piss me off just as bad no matter what color the customer’s skin is. I believe what @thorninmud has offered here. It makes perfect sense

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Bill_Lumbergh's avatar

@woodcutter – please calm down. I’m truly sorry, but I would have to agree with the rest of the group on this issue. Yes, I agree that being in the military, as we both know, might make this officer a serious ball-buster, but it has no bearing on the root of your problem. Overall, this is a serious business issue and I highly recommend you use your military training to be more assertive when it comes to dealing with stuck up a-holes like this guy. What I forgot to mention, and I hesitate to post, is that a lot more military leadership do not belong in a leadership position. (They often fall through the cracks) I am going to assume that this Major is not currently in a leadership position, but more in a support role. In fact, if this officer is over the age of 45, he might be looking at a force-retirement soon. (he cannot move any further in his career with the US Army, and they get rid of these “useless officers”)

woodcutter's avatar

@Bill_Lumbergh Agreed I don’t think he’s in charge of much because a leader has to know how to use tact which he has none. It could be a falling through the cracks issue. Should have put this in social but was worried it would crash the site!

Bill_Lumbergh's avatar

@woodcutter – To answer your question; No. It is not something the US military practices, trains it soldiers, or even talks about. You honestly have nothing to worry about. Good luck, and let me know how it turns out, please!

cheebdragon's avatar

I thought affirmative action was dead these days…

augustlan's avatar

[mod says] Question has been moved to Social with asker’s permission.

woodcutter's avatar

I got no qualms with blacks or any other demographic. I’m in this for the money, that’s all. And it is also good I like what I do, and I am very good at what I do. In fact everything I do is perfect. This level of competency and attention to detail does not come cheap however. That is why I don’t work for poor people or dumb people, I have learned. About ½ of my customers are black homeowners because of word of mouth…they talk. And that is good for business.
I think I’m pissed at the army for allowing a dolt among their ranks. And I feel blindsided because usually an army officer has good money AND they are intelligent, two of my favorite kinds of people. Being a veteran I know what conduct becoming of an officer looks like and this guy ain’t it. I’m pretty sure this is just one dumb ass and will be the last time I get surprised by a military man. Hell even enlisted soldiers are cool who do get a break but not officers, sorry they are doing pretty well.

Seaofclouds's avatar

There are plenty of soldiers that are damn good at their military jobs, but don’t seem so bright outside of that area. For a lot of people, the military is just another job and not their life, so they are completely different on and off the job. Sounds like you just got into a contract with someone that is a jerk outside of their job. I’ve learned there are a lot of soldiers that are completely different in and out of uniform, so you can’t really judge their performance in uniform by what you see out of uniform.

jerv's avatar

Considering that most of the higher-ranking enlisted people in the Supply departments on the to ships I was stationed on were Filipino (all but one of the Mess Specialists I saw between E5 and E9 were, as were more than half the guys in the other Supply divisions) , I often wondered that myself.

However, the truth is that they are color-blind. It is true that some form of cronyism cal lead to better evals, but there is no fudging the advancement exam or Time In Rate requirements. In order to advance in the Navy, you need to kiss ass, know your shit, and be physically fit enough to avoid a medical discharge, but you can be green for all they care.

As @woodcutter points out though, assholes are everywhere. I’ve met them in many colors all up and down the payscale.

woodcutter's avatar

http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/EOP/OP/html/aa/aa07.html Take this for what it’s worth but it seems self evident, that and what I know as a veteran. An officer’s core personality does not switch off as soon as they leave post or re enter. A man is a man. If he’s a dick to a civilian while off post he’s gone way off the reservation big time. If he treats his subordinates half as bad as he did me he’d better hope his unit is never deployed in a hot zone,just sayin.

Pandora's avatar

@woodcutter Have you ever considered that he may be suffering from some illness that hasn’t been noticed yet or is being ignored because he is close to retirement or is on medical hold?
My daughter had a friend whos father got Alzheimer’s. He was a very smart accountant. His disease wasn’t noticed right away. But there were clues that everyone didn’t notice right away and chalked it up to other things. He also was a very nice guy at first. As his memory slipped he started to become easily agitated. Then his math skills where slipping. He thought he was just tired and overworked. In two years time, he forgot how to write, how to drive, how to even answer a phone. His job let him go because his job performance was suffering and he was becoming agitated with his peers and customers. He also had to be told things over and over. People who didn’t know what was going on thought him an ass. He was just sick. You could be looking at this all wrong. If the service knows there is something wrong with him, he will be put on medical hold and tons of evaluations done before he is retired.
He could also be suffering from PTSD. It often has a lot of the same symptoms.

woodcutter's avatar

@Pandora I was trying reeeeally hard to give the man every benefit of the doubt. But I caught him in sooo many “inconsistencies” which is a word I abhor because it is a political correct way of saying “lie” The man outright and repeatedly lied to me, about dumb shit, stuff even a child would catch, but he thought that somehow he was duping me? If you are going to bullshit me, please, make it a well crafted story that at least Judge Judy would buy, who by the way is pretty damn hard to slip any bullshit past. Doing anything other than that is not going to do anything but insult my intelligence. I can get past the asshole bit but not the constant short bus behavior that he drags me through. He’s been wasting my time all along, which I think is a concept totally lost on people who get a fat check on time, every time, on the 30th whether they do good work or not. They who do that believe they are entitled to a living and are clueless as to what working people like myself and others do to survive.

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