Am I really just "covering my ass" by identifying as Agnostic?

Why are you having this conversation at work…. with your boss?
This is really not a work appropriate conversation, and if I were in your shoes, I would say so. Problem solved.

So she would rather you are an atheist, because then you’re sure you’re not going to hell because you’re sure it doesn’t exist, or something ?

@ANef_is_Enuf I agree, but I didn’t start it, and it wasn’t just the two of us involved in it. I work in a phone center made up of teenagers and she is one of the only adults. It’s a pretty unprofessional atmosphere… I’m not saying I like it that way

My military dog tags have “no preference” embossed on them. So I guess if I bought it on the battlefield I would be worm dirt. Speaking of the military, it’s a better job than the one you got, by the sound of things there.
Edit: I can also tell she is ripe for a good plowing to get rid of that cherry…do it.

@desiree333 you still have every right to opt out of the conversation. What she said was completely inappropriate, especially as your superior at work. I would just walk the other way the next time something like this comes up.

And next time, if you want to get smart, you should point out that we are all technically agnostic. Agnostic simply means “without knowledge,” and the truth of the matter is that none of us really know. We believe what we believe and hope that we’re right.

@dabbler Your completely right and I really have no idea. According to her logic, I’m scared I’m going to hell. That doesn’t even make sense because if I really “don’t believe in God” then I must be an Atheist. If I was an Atheist I wouldn’t be worried about going to hell.

Secondly, she said “you calling yourself Agnostic is just covering your ass because your afraid you will go to hell if you deny God.”

So in her logic, you are not going to hell since you are agnostic? Since you are not denying God, just not sure?

If that’s what it is then she should be happy for you. : )

@ANef_is_Enuf is right. If it continues to be a problem, go to her supervisor. You should never be called out for your beliefs at work.

And you’re not covering your ass, that’s just what you believe. Her argument assumes that there is a hell and that you believe in it. It’s a logical fallacy.

To be an atheist or a deist takes faith because neither can be proved. I thought I was an atheist until I realized it was only faith that made me so sure. Agnostics don’t have the faith to believe or not. I’d just tell her you’d prefer not to talk about religion, thank you.

She is an apparently fully convinced fundamentalist. They have real trouble with anything which doesn’t fall into their framwork of belief. If you don’t believe, you don’t believe and to say otherwise would be to lie. Stick firmly, but politely to your guns and allow her to rant as she desires.

What do you do with the ‘If you don’t believe in Jesus you don’t believe in God’ thing either?
What if you’re a Rastafarian? or a Hindu or, heaven ( and I mean the proper heaven!) forbid : a Muslim ?

I read recently that people respect atheists more than agnostics because at least they have picked a position. I think that is total bullshit, but that is what it said. If she believes Jesus is God, and doesn’t even believe that Jewish and Muslim theists are theists, which is basically what she is saying if only believing in Jesus means a person believes in God, there is nothing you can do, she is a lost cause.

Just tell her hell has nothing to do with it if it ever comes up again, hopefully it doesn’t.

My assumption is you live as an atheist, but you do not deny a possibility of the existence of God. She will never understand what that means. For her not believing in God is terrifying I’m guessing.

If you’re covering your own ass, you’d know, right? Are you agnostic out of fear that God and Hell may be real, or because nor do you deny or accept the existence of a god? Like you said? I don’t think you have to worry about her. She sounds like someone I’d just nod to and smile, even if she wasn’t my boss.

@dabbler Using her thought process/logic I guess they are all screwed!

@JLeslie So according to that article theists would rather people just deny God than question the possibility? That is ridiculous.. My boss is such a hypocrite, she does not know the difference between her saviour/messiah/prophet (not sure what they call him) and her God. Yet she thinks she has the superiority and knowledge to tell me what my beliefs should be!

@desiree333 believe me, this isn’t the first hypocritical person you’re going to run into in life. You recognize it, so why take her opinion to heart? She is way out of line in the first place, but aside from that it also sounds like her opinion isn’t one that I would, personally, value.

@Symbeline I am definitely not agnostic out of fear of the wrath of hell and God. I do not believe in hell anyways. I wish I had the willpower to just wave her off and ignore her. When I get into a discussion with idiotic hypocrites who don’t know what they’re talking about I just can’t ignore it.

@ANef_is_Enuf I think I just needed to rant and get other people’s opinions. This is not the first time she has done this. She has started so many other arguments with me about things I am passionate and knowledgeable about.

@desiree333 That’s usually the kinda people I ignore like the plague lol. Her being your superior might make things harder than that though, especially if she has a habit of engaging in such conversations with you.

@desiree333 I assume that article had to do with politics and the babble about needing a real leader, and having a leader who sticks to his convictions. During Bush the left criticized him for being black and white thinking, and the right defended it as being on the side of “right.”

She’s so far gone, she’s not worth debating with. Her parents or a fervert pastor got a hold of her real young.

Your being honest… If you don’t know you don’t know.

I’m agnostic. I don’t believe in a god, but I feel it’s a bit arrogant to say there isn’t one. I also feel it’s a bit arrogant to say there is. How do we know, we’re not dead yet to find out if there is one (or two, or three), right? What’s most important is that everyone deserves some respect for their beliefs and no one should be made to feel bad for how they feel on the subject.

I’m a militant agnostic: I don’t know if God exists and neither do you.

The concept of hell is a significant part of why I stopped considering myself a Christian. It’s a big part of what makes me not believe. So her statement is all the more ridiculous to me…

@DominicX militant agnostic. I like that. =)

I am a non-practicing agnostic… I don’t belive that I can know what I belive either way… I just don’t know. Did I mention that I was a philosophy major?

Pascal’s Wager like a motherfucker up in this bitch.

And to answer your question, nope, being an agnostic is not a cop out just like being a political moderate isn’t a cop out either.

@jonsblond Love your answer, especially “I also feel it’s a bit arrogant to say there is.” I don’t know if I believe in god. All I know is I don’t believe in the one that is always listening, that you can pray to, and that will guide you. Some Christians I know seem to think God is a genie.. If there is a god, I don’t think it’s listening.

@DominicX The whole bible and the way Christian mass is carried out reminds me of a cult. Every time I have to be part of anything religious I can’t help but think warily cult, cult…cuuuulltt I feel like people should be spiritual, but I dislike the idea of organized religion. I don’t think there is anything wrong with reflectively praying alone, I just don’t like the whole chanting, and signing business.

@talljasperman I know I am probably never going to become Atheist or religious. I am never going to be sure there is a god, because there is absolutely no way to know. All you can have is faith and hope for one. Also, I don’t think I will ever be sure there isn’t a god.

I don’t think you are covering your ass. You stated what you believe. She is just trying to interpret your beliefs through her narrow scope of reality. BTW, just because you don’t have a high school diploma doesn’t mean you aren’t intelligent. Although this woman is not a good example of that.

@Russell_D_SpacePoet I think the point about the education is people with a college degree are less likely to be so narrow in their thinking, because they have been exposed to a more diverse group of people typically. I never think someone who only has a high school degree is automatically less intelligent, I would not think other people think that way either.

@Russell_D_SpacePoet I’m sorry that I made it sound like I think anyone without a diploma is not intelligent. I do not think that at all, it is just specifically her that is sheltered and narrow minded.

@desiree333 She may have started the conversation but you could’ve ended it with these few words. I refuse to talk politics or religion at work and just rather return to work.
You are letting your feelings about her get the better of you. There will be narrow minded people where ever you go.
It shouldn’t matter to you what she thinks of your religious preferences or even what anyone else thinks.
I look at my faith in this manner. It is between myself and God. When and if I stand at the gates of heaven or even if there is a gate, I know I will be there alone. No lawyers, not judges, no family, no friends, no one else but myself standing there all alone. Whether God or Jesus, or Mary or anyone else from the bible or saints are there, I do not know. What I will be judged on or even if I will be judged. I do not know.
But I do know I have a right to believe in what I want to believe. Same as yourself. Same as your boss. I also know that I have the right to share my beliefs or not share when I want to. I also believe in never trying to educate the ignorant. You’ll only get a headache.

@Pandora That is a very good idea, next time I will just refuse to participate. I know she just wants to get a rise out of me, and frankly, my beliefs aren’t her business.
I really admire how you have faith and religion yet recognize that you cannot know for sure the things you stated. I wish more people were like you and didn’t think that what they believe in is the only way that is right. Also, the word you used (ignorant) is a better word for my boss, not uneducated like I previously said.

@desiree333 Your boss being Christian means she is supposed to try and save you. She is programmed to show you the way. So, I agree, avoiding the topic altogether is probably the best way to go.

I think this bothered you because you were raised religously and probably feel you need to defend your beliefs or lack of. Come hang out with the atheists like me who were raised by atheists. LOL.

@desiree333 Thanks. At my last job I had a boss who was quite ignorant. Whenever she would try to goad me into stupid conversation, I would just ignore her and tell her I had work to do or change the subject to something I knew she didn’t like to talk about. Usually the subject would be about (work) something she needed to do and finish so I could finish my part of it. She would then say, she would get to it later and call someone else to annoy. She eventually stopped trying to bug me and learned I wasn’t going to take the bait.

@JLeslie I would love to! I’m very surprised on how I turned out as a person. I’m so different from my family, especially in my beliefs and lifestyle.

@Pandora I will be sure to stay far away from these types of subjects with her and hopefully she will leave me alone.

@desiree333 You have probably figured out fluther is full of atheists. I’m Jewish and much of my life lived in areas with lots of Jews so there are plenty of atheists around me from relatives to aquaintances, coworkers etc. 95% of my close friends are Catholic and theists. My husband was raised Catholic. Right now I live in the bible belt, many of the people I spend time with here are Christian something, although somehow I have attracted Catholics here too.

@JLeslie I’ve definitely noticed that!

TL:DR

I get that a bit from those that think that religious belief is more important than oxygen, to which I often roll my eyes since arguing with that sort of “logic” is futile at best.

Point out that she is wagering everything she has on a long-shot. I mean, if one believes in Jesus then they also believe in zombies, condone cannibalism, and advocate incest (if Genesis is remotely correct, then either Cain married his unnamed sister, or had an Oedipus complex). So, which is more likely; that we live in a George Romero porno flick, or that her interpretation of the Bible is wrong? At best, she is covering her ass by betting on the sort of thing that you don’t feel that any decent person would have anything to do with.

Or you could just do what I do with @CaptainHarley at least twice a week; agree to disagree and move on.

I know I am, covering my arse with splinters that is….from all that fence sitting.
Hey, think of it as an insurance policy come judgement day, keep those options open!

Violating a promise I have made to myself to read all answers before jumping into a thread…didn’t read any. sorry…

@desiree333: “I am Agnostic, I do not deny there is a God but I am also not sure.”

Technically, you are an atheist. You’re an agnostic atheist, but still an atheist. Why? You do not believe in a god or gods. Theism is the belief in the existence of one or more gods. If you do not hold this belief, you are an atheist. There is a huge misconception that atheism is the belief that there are no gods. This is often described as strong atheism.

If there was a word to describe the belief in fairies (say, “fairyist”), you would be an afairyist if you didn’t believe in fairies – even if you didn’t claim that you had proof that fairies don’t exist. The prefix “a” (lack of, without) means that you are simply lacking a positive belief in fairies. Same goes for theist and atheist. A child who has never been exposed to religion and does not believe in a god or gods is an atheist. This child has never actively considered the possibility of the existence of a god, and has not rejected theist claims as rubbish. It just does not have a positive belief in a god.

Oh, so where does “agnostic” come into play? You’re a weak or agnostic atheist. You do not hold that positive belief that there is no god. You just have not accepted any arguments presented to support the belief that there is a god.

Ok. I’m done, and I apologize for ignoring all of you. I’ll get to reading this thread later….

@tom_g I think most people would call her an agnostic, but as I said above it seems she lives as an atheist. She can identify herself either way in my opinion. Most people I personally know who are like her call themselves, and identify as athiests from what I can tell.

@tom_g Okay but I don’t not believe in a god or gods. I am not sure. I don’t go around saying I don’t believe in god, or I do. I guess you are right? But I don’t really want to be labeled as an Atheist, it does make it sound like I “do not” believe in god, and that is not really the whole picture. Also, I have not really participated in arguments to persuade me there is a god. It’s always been about Jesus and the bible, but never just god.

@JLeslie I guess I do live like an atheist. I sure do not believe in organized religion, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be spiritual on my own. Are atheists spiritual? I don’t know enough about what these labels entail to classify myself entirely I guess.

@desiree333 – You can label yourself (or not label yourself) anything you want. Also, you state that you really haven’t been presented with arguments in an attempt to persuade you that there was a god (not just Jesus of the bible). Sure. It’s not your responsibility, however. Since there is no evidence that a god exists, you are faced with the situation in which you must evaluate the positive claims made by theists. If at some point you are persuaded by one of those arguments into believing in a god or gods, you will be a theist. Until then, you are an atheist (although you don’t have to call yourself one). There are plenty of things we are “a” about (the a-fairiest example I gave). If we were to have a word for every crazy claim out there, it would be a waste of time to slap an “a-” on the beginning and call ourselves that. The reason atheist works for me is that I live in the US – a country that is saturated with religion and theists. Because of this, it is a fairly-important part of my identity. But I completely understand those that choose not to use the term.

However, using agnosticism as though it is neither theism nor atheism is technically incorrect. Theism has to do with belief. Gnosis has to do with knowledge. In this context, one could be an agnostic atheist, agnostic theist, gnostic atheist, or gnostic theist. (note: not related to gnosticism). Again, we’re dealing with the Huxley term, so it does get confusing. Some people prefer weak atheist, weak theist, strong atheist, strong theist.

The reason this distinction becomes important to atheists is that many (most) of us do not claim that a god does not exist. Rather, we have not accepted any of the claims made by theists. That is, there is insufficient evidence to believe in a god. Therefore, we are without (“a-”) belief in a god or gods (“theist”) -> atheist.
Theists often apply the strawman fallacy by painting the picture of the atheist who claims he can prove the nonexistence of a god. There are those who feel this is possible, but I have yet to meet one. Anyway, this theist stereotype of the atheist has made its way into popular culture to the point that some people who are atheists walk around claiming they are agnostics in an attempt to distinguish themselves from these fools who can prove there is no god.
Hope I’m not derailing this thread. I think @ANef_is_Enuf nailed it in the first answer. This type of talk has no business in the workplace. Good luck.

@tom_g Your answer really did clarify things for me. I am an agnostic atheist or weak atheist. Is there a term for those that claim a god does not exist, as if they are sure? Or are they just called strong atheists? All of the descriptions of an atheist’s beliefs-or lack of- sound exactly like myself. I have insufficient evidence to believe in a god. I am not ruling it out or not accepting any arguments to convince me. I feel slightly guilty because I think calling myself an agnostic was an ignorant way of separating myself from those “fools”, which society often associates with all atheists. Most people I know seem to think being an atheist means denying god and being satanic. I guess I was worried calling myself an atheist made people think that about me. I’m glad I now know how to explain what an atheist is when someone asks me if I worship the devil..

What if we lack enough belief in humanity’s ability to know that it renders the question of whether there is a creator or not moot? Seems that “without knowledge” is appropriate for me, hence I will stick with straight-up, plain old Agnostic.

@jerv: “hence I will stick with straight-up, plain old Agnostic”

Fine. That covers the knowledge part (“lack enough belief in humanity’s ability to know”). It doesn’t say anything about your belief, however. Do you believe that there is some kind of god, but you think we lack the ability to truly know (agnostic theist)? Or do you lack a belief in a god, and think that we lack the ability to truly _know (agnostic atheist)? At some point, “straight-up, plain old Agnostic” is really like using an adjective without the noun it describes (I purchased a beautiful).

Mu.

Hope that isn’t in response to my post. I’ll assume you are joking.