What do people think of this? Comments made by Israelis. 'Israelis Debate on the Web: Did Norway Get What It Deserved?'?

My first thought was, “Why do so many people have problems with outsiders of any kind?”

Some other thoughts were: Do the anonymous, often hateful, comments on the internet really reflect a large portion of the communities feelings? Why is this Israeli-Palestine conflict so deep rooted? This seems like the most important conflict on the whole planet. What I also got out of it was: If you insult the jewish, or side with palestinians or arabs, you deserve to die. That’s a little extreme.

Obviously, Norway didn’t deserve this, we can all come to that conclusion.

I think it is sad that those Israelis expressing certain of the opinions can’t see the tragedy in its own right and not as some weird reflection of their country.

Innocent youths were killed. Period. It is horrible. Period,

It is not all about the Israelis.

My first thoughts are pretty odd for me..
I find myself thinking that we shouldn’t be discussing the matter at all since the cause of the discussion (terrorism) was illegitimate. But maybe that’s a bit too censorship-like?

@ninjacolin Although it is pernicious, debates should never be censored. This debate will open doors and help people see things they haven’t seen, even if it is 1 or 2 people lol.

Well, first of all I wonder if this is a very very small minority of people, and to generalize these opinions as Israeli opinions is probably painting with a broad brush. I don’t know any Israelis or Jews who believe people deserve to die in this way. I also would want to be sure it is translated correctly. Saying someone deserves to die, is very different than saying they could have predicted something like this might happen because of their actions. I’m thinking easily it could be translated either of the two ways.

In America some Jews do talk about what we perceive as Europeans being very Arab friendly and antisemitic. It sort of baffles us. There is also conversation about the Nordic countries being naive and idealistic about the Arabs they let immigrate to their countries, and from where we sit it seems they are not assimilating well, but rather holding onto their own customs and cultural mores. This is where we worry, that they are not very western in attitude and are not adjusting, but maybe we are competely wrong about that? Anyway, we never say the Norwegians will get theirs for being sympathetic to Arabs amd Muslims, never in a way that the Nordic countries deserve some sort of punishment. But, it would not surprise me if people, more specifically Jews, in America say things like the countries are setting themselves up for turmoil, ruining the beautiful little civilized bubble they had. I know that sounds very ethnocentric and xenaphobic, I am just conveying some attitudes I have heard.

Everyone I know is horrified by the events in Norway. It is a reminder that at any moment some nut job can take your life or someone you love. In the end it is not about religion or land or politics, but about hateful extreme thinking, and criminal acts.

I saw only one or two comments that were self-centered and imo, insensitively mean. There is much ado about nothing here if the blogger is implying those Israelis who posted deserve condemnation.

It makes it clearer to me that what one Norwegian blogger said is very true: ‘We don’t have as much to fear from multiculturalism as we have to fear from the fear of multiculturalism.’

@cazzie Good quote.

@cazzie But, would you agree that the Muslim Arabs in your country are not assimilating well? I have seen Q’s from people who live in Sweden and the Netherlands that imply some frustration on the topic in their coutries.

@JLeslie Yes, of course there are some… just as there are a few Polish who aren’t and even American’s that come here and form clubs and import their favourite peanut butter. People can make all the generalisations they want. I know things are magnified in Oslo. It’s a bigger city. Efforts have been made to settle in more Northern, smaller cities. You have to remember, these people don’t just pack their bags and move here. They are Asylum Seekers. That means, because of war and famine in their own countries, we take them in and we don’t take as many as, say, Sweden and Nederland and there are some hard feelings about that. Some countries in Europe think we should take more Asylum Seekers because we are a relatively well-off nation.

We are NOT flooded with people from Islamic countries. In fact, the largest immigrant group in our country is Vietnamese, but the most recent largest growing group is Polish. The Polish aren’t Asylum seekers, but they come here under the EØU to work here.

http://www.ssb.no/innvandring/ Sorry, it is in Norwegian, but you can read graphs, I’m sure.

Another thing to remember is that those born here in Norway to Foreign parents are not considered Norwegian, but of the country their parents were born, even though they may never speak the language or have lived there.

@cazzie As an American, I do expect people immigrating here to agree with the basic premise of the country. I lived in FL, that state is full full full of asylum seekers. By the second generations they are pretty much assimilated like other groups. Of course there are still cultural differences, but they are “American.” the Arabs I am friends with, a few of them their parents fled the country in fear of their lives, others came for different reasons. They are very American, and very western.

Since the countries in your neck of the woods who have higher immigration rates of Arab Muslims are having some troubles, what do you think about that? Should they accomodate the needs of the minority population? Or, do the immigrants need to start doing things Norwegian style? I remember one question was regardind Sweden I think, it was about a mandatory class in school that many Muslim parents did not want their daughters to participate in.

We expect them to assimilate too. They are offered free language courses and free ‘catch-up’ classes so they can get to a level of knowledge and literacy that would qualify them for work.

I went to these Norwegian classes myself when I first got here. We were all thrown in together and it was one of the best experiences of my life. I was in with the ‘spouses’ like me but also asylum seekers. It was a wake-up call, I tell you. There was one girl that was in a separate class, but we kept running into each other the first term. She spoke no English, but con vied to me that she was Kurdish. She wore a head scarf and no make up and was very soft spoken. I saw her again after the second term started. Her Norwegian had improved so much…(better than mine) and she told me she was in the other section of the school now, getting a ‘high school’ education. She now wore no scarf, held her head up, laughed and wore a bit of make up. It was a lovely transformation. I don’t care about the scarf or any headgear worn for traditional purposes, but she made the decision to lose it, so… Power to her for having a choice.

Of course not all of the women in the school were like this. Some husbands were very sexist and thought they wouldn’t get their dinner on time if the wife went to the school and some women showed up at the beginning, but dropped out. But some women, one from Iran that I met, ended up divorcing her abusive Iranian husband and raised the 3 children on her own, because we have a society where that is possible. No need to stay in an abusive relationship. I see her working as a check out person at a large store in town. These are just anecdotal from the city I live in.

What do I think about some countries having problems with higher immigration rates? I think people should stop bombing up countries and sending them over here, that’s what I think.

@cazzie So you prefer the immigrants don’t come? It is not always about bombing. Many times it is economic.

When there is only a small population of minorites it is easier to assimilate than if there is a large one. The large numbers creates a significant community that maintains the traditions and the peer pressure.

@JLeslie No, I think there is room for other sub-cultures here, as there are in many countries. I am happy for my son to have a French speaking daycare worker from Morocco or some other West African country who can teach him songs in French while she learns more confidence with Norwegian, (because kids can be more helpful and forgiving sometimes than grown-ups)

My mother’s in law’s doctor is from Iran. He’s brilliant. I had a doctor here from Scotland for a while. He was great. My personal opinion is of no value really, but I do want people to see what Norway’s collective reaction has been to this tragedy and see that value in that.

Here is the wikipedia on the Amish shooting if you have any interest.. Towards the bottom is the description of the reaction. There was a made for TV movie called Amish Grace. It touches on how the media for the most part went on about how could it be possible for the commuity to react as they did.

[mod says] Please take this to PMs. Thanks!

Here is a great interview from an English speaking source with a Norwegian very qualified to discuss the topic of July 22.
http://www.shoah.org.uk/2011/07/29/norway%E2%80%99s-johan-galtung-peace-conflict-pioneer-on-how-to-stop-extremism-that-fueled-shooting-share/

Here is a small portion of what he has to say….. ’....what does it remind me of? And I have one simple answer and one horrifying answer. I will take the simple answer first: it reminds me of Nazism.’

Well it seems to me that the vast majority of Norwegians counter hatred with love for humanity. While 50% of Israelis counter hatred with hatred, electing hard-line governments.

To me it’s pretty obvious which approach will be more successful long-term.

Really?

@mattbrowne I think if the Israelis could jail all the people throwing bombs at them, even if it was just for 20 years and even if they were kept in a hotel like setting, they would be ok with it.

I really don’t think we can compare a madman bomber homocidal extremist to Hamas, Hezbollah, and all other Arab or Persian nations that condemn the exitence of Israel. I agree sometimes Israel does not act, react, or retaliate how I would prefer, but every country would try to protect their own borders. Imagine if countries surrounding Germany wantinf to take land and kill citizens. What would Germany do? I think they would push back with force when nothing else seemed to work.

OK, then, Which nation on earth do you think holds the most anti-muslim, militant reaction to sharing space with Muslims on the planet? Which nations show mostly generosity and tolerance to help relocate, educate and help muslims when they are displaced by war and occupation of their countries. And yes, they have a percentage of their population that gets angry about it and voices their opinion, but they aren’t sanctioned by their government for exercising their freedom of speech against what the majority holds to be true. Intimidation tactics by one government’s agencies to gag reports has become endemic. ( http://www.fpa.org.il/?categoryId=73838 )

A very good discussion on what extremism is that I think we can all agree on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNhPMQnWu4&feature=share

@cazzie Do you believe that if Israel was left alone, and the Israelis went back to The 1967 borders, and Pastinians had their own country including additional land given to them by Arab nations, do you think then Israelis would continue to aggressively go after Muslims and Arabs? Israelis do not want to wipe Arabs, Persians and all Muslims off the planet. They just want to be left in peace.

Do you believe Israel has the right to exist? Or, that Israel was created unjustifiably?

@JLeslie I’m atheist, so I think non-secular governments are inherently dangerous. The history of the establishment of Israel is very complex, so arguing about it’s ‘right to exist’ is very silly… It is a nation that was formed, like many nations, though complex colonisation over decades. If someone argues that it’s creation is unjust, then, so was USA, but I do argue about it’s self-appointed right of expansion and it’s anti-humanising tactics it uses on Palestine. For a country that ‘just wants to be left alone’ why do they treat their neighbours so poorly? Do you think that if Israel had treated their neighbours fairly to begin with, they would be having these problems?

I do think that Israel does some horrendous things currently and is in a pretty bad place when it comes to human rights and fostering hate. No country on Earth has broken as many UN resolutions as Israel. Here is an article by a real journalist. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/neff-un.html

@cazzie When I use right to exist, I am not talking about some sort of religious right. I mean it the same way you would. Similar to the US right to exist. I also much prefer secular governments (with an admittedly irrational but logical, if both things can exist together, place in my mind that is happy I have a country around that will always accept me).

The Palestinians and other Arabs around Israel have aggressively attacked Israel over the years. It’s not like Israel is always being preemptive or something. The countries surrounding don’t like the UN decision creating Israel.

The horrendous things Israel might do is because they do not trust the people around them, for good reason. Both sides don’t trust.

Do you think if Israel took a policy of no warlike tactics that the surrounding countries would just sit back, be happy, and accept Israel? Jewish history shows that people will enslave us, kill us, and seize our property. Remember part of Israeli psyche is never again.

I really can see both sides. I can even understand when the Iranian President says why not give the Jews parts of Germany and Europe if the holocaust was part of the reason the UN voted for Israel, and I think he is horrible in general. I understand many areas of Israel are basically Arab, and I am for a two state solution. Why doesn’t some of the Arab countries give land to the Palestinians? You say your country takes in refugees, why are Arab countries not taking them in? I would guess some do, but why are the Arabs emigrating to Europe not emigrating to other places in the middle east where you would think the language, reigion, and culture would be more compatable?

This quote is from a humourist/journalist here in Norway in reference to the Palestine/Israeli fighting.

”Å bli beskutt av tungt artilleri er ofte et tegn på dårlig samvittighet” – Knut Nærum

“Being fired on by heavy artillery is often a sign of bad conscience” – Knut Nærum

‘No one said either side had a higher horse (religion) to get up on. I’d just rather them shoot their horse and not each other.’ Me.

@cazzie Who is “me?” You?

Most people who fight for Israel fight for the country, the land, not for religion. I would say it is a minority of people who think about it in terms of the Jews get the land because they believe they were there first. I know more religious Christians who think that way, who are waiting for the Jews to rebuild the Temple, who blindly believe the Jews get Israel for biblical reasons, than I know Jews.

Don’t conflate Jews and Israelis. It is not perfectly synonomous. The Israelis fight for their country, same as an countryman.

Is your quote saying that if I am fired upon, I am the one with a bad conscience? I want to make sure I understand.

@cazzie It got me thinking. Do you think of Jews killing Muslims? I never think in those terms. I can think of Muslims and Christians blowing things up in their extremism, but I never think in terms of Jews that way. I guess there must be extremist Jewish people maybe who have committed such crimes, but mostly I think of them buying up land, and not wanting to leave their homes even after they have been ordered of the land. I in no way am saying Christians and Muslims generally are violent, i believe there can be extremists in any religion who can be violent, it is about that individual more than anything.

When I think of Israel and the Palestinians, I think Israelis and Palestinians, not Jews and Muslims. Hell, one of my friends who is Palestinian was raised Christian, his mother was Christian until many years later she converted, but he was raised by his Christian grandparents for part of his upbringing in their home. When I think of Lebanon, again, there still are Christians there, although many have left, a lot of them living in my neck of the woods. To me it is not about religion that much.

It took a while, but apology accepted.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id=232535

@zen – Yes, there is the “progress” party, and the Netherlands got their version, and the French and the Austrians and so forth. Populist parties which try to take advantage of people’s fears about multicultural societies. But it seems that the vast majority of Norwegians stand for diversity and tolerance and an outcry to strike back at Muslim haters didn’t take place. Israel of course has seen far more violence over such a long time and there are far more people to mourn. Still, the “answer violence with violence only strategy” isn’t working. And I think it’s wonderful that Norway is trying to deescalate the whole situation. And the comments seen in this Israeli website @cazzie mentioned are adding fuel to the whole problem.