When you say someone is being 'politically correct', what do you mean by it?

I have used the term, but find that I feel dirty after using it. It’s a bit lazy, and doesn’t really serve a purpose. In a way, it feels as though it’s a sneak ad hominem attack.

It’s assigning to them a motivation (they are only saying that because it’s currently the safe, popular position) that they may not have. Why not say, “you’re such a sheep!”?

I actually think being politically correct started off with the best of intentions to use words that were acceptable and respectful. Like you would say black/african american instead of the N word. Or that you would say asian instead of oriental etc etc. However I think it’s taken a different meaning and implication now and instead is used like you say to imply dishonesty. I think this has come about from an over use of political correctness as a concept. People seem to be sick and tired of it and seem to think enough is enough. I remember someone once getting annoyed by the term seasons greetings saying that there was never anything wrong with saying merry christmas and that one shouldn’t be offended by the greeting if they don’t celebrate Christmas.

So now I think yes the term is slightly corrupted and when someone uses it they use it to mean:
1. you are being unnecessarily careful/vague
2. you are trying to play down your real feelings by using certain terms, ie you’re dishonest.

This was discussed a while back – but I’ll share what I think once again (and it’s nice to see you asking a question beloved leader).

For me, and I can be very cynical, it is still the old-fashioned term it was meant to be; one shouldn’t walk about telling people to their face everything they think – and one shouldn’t call anyone anything they feel like – regardless if it’s offensive or not.

Black people were called Colored, now they are African American – but not all are of African descent and I know that some prefer to be called Black. But being PC is beyond that: it’s not just considering what the other person prefers to be called – it’s first and foremost thinking of the other as a person – listening – and then treating them/calling them as they wish.

This goes for LGBTG (did I get that acronym right?) and every other person of every faith, colour and religion.

By the way – zionist is tossed around here a lot – usually in a derogatory way – especially when its’ “pc” to Israel bash. I take offence at that. Why?

That’s for another discussion.

I hate PC speak and was and is one of the worst castrations of political discourse ever to grace our nations political landscape and a total disgrace to anyone who chooses to be PC and not say what they really want to say! PC is a HUGE step backwards in the political debate!

The worst is PC has infected almost every element of public discussion and things are NOT being said that should! Dammit!! Just say what is on your mind and pick up the pieces later!!

@Cruiser So you agree with me for the most part?

Being politically correct means that you have let other people set standards for you. It seems to be a particular trend in colleges and universities. All these kid try to fit in to a new environment and take their ques from their peers. After they graduate the habit is ingrained. We end up with “politically correct” self centered leadership that puts the whole country in political and economic peril.

@Cruiser See, this is what I’m getting at, though. If I am saying what is on my mind, and I happen to use less offensive terms out of consideration for others, why is that bad? I never feel like I can’t speak honestly and kindly, at the same time, you know? It’s not even a conscious decision… those terms come naturally to me.

@zen Not sure….on some elements I agree one should not flagrantly insult or demean anyone at anytime as that is just being civil even polite. But I see PC as a bigger filter of thoughts that remain unspoken in order to preserve the peace by being PC which IMO often leaves a lot of important emotions even passion in the debate on the cutting room floor.

I agree with @augustlan – don’t you all?

@Cruiser Example?

@augustlan Your example I would not characterize as PC merely well thought out discourse which you are clearly IMO expert at and refreshing to see. PC moments I have seen are centered around highly charged debate or press conferences which have me throwing shoes at the TV when I know they are not saying what they otherwise would and should be saying about whatever PC moment they are circling around.

@Cruiser Ok, I see where you’re coming from. I’ve definitely been called PC before, though, so I guess not everyone uses the phrase the same way, or in the same situations, at least.

@augustlan: ”...so I guess not everyone uses the phrase the same way…”

You’re correct. When I think of it, it’s usually something right-of-center (flowery military love or language, nationalist speech, etc). But many people think of it as some kind of left-wing force.

@zen the obvious ones are the ongoing pursuit to eliminate the word God from any and all publicly supported pledge, anthem or song…even currency. Mascots, mottos and traditions are being taken down and replaced with milque toast replacements a shadow of their former glory. The worst in my lifetime is “Happy Holidays” and God forbid you say Merry Chistmas ever again.

For lack of a better expample…Clint Eastwood although crude…sums it up kinda OK

“People have lost their sense of humour. In former times we constantly made jokes about different races. You can only tell them today with one hand over your mouth or you will be insulted as a racist,” the Daily Express quoted him as saying.

“I find that ridiculous. In those earlier days every friendly clique had a ‘Sam the Jew’ or ‘Jose the Mexican’ – but we didn’t think anything of it or have a racist thought. It was just normal that we made jokes based on our nationality or ethnicity. That was never a problem. I don’t want to be politically correct.

We’re all spending too much time and energy trying to be politically correct about everything,” he added.

Oddly if you consider what old Clint said here I think he may be actually the entire reason PC was started in the first place! XD

Some people will use it just to piss you off and imply that when you are being respectful you are actually being a hypocrite about your true opinions.

@Cruiser I’d say the flaw in your definition of political correctness is that, more often than not, the accusation is thrown against people using language that is more clear, rather than less. I’m trying to find an older conversation here, where precisely that happened: I was accused of “political correctness” (as if that’s an argument) for clearly stating anthropological theory. It was probably the most articulate argument in the conversation, and certainly the one most based on scientific fact, so I clearly wasn’t holding back on what I “really thought”. It was only “politically correct” when it disagreed with the status quo/someone’s privilege.

The Happy Holidays vs. Merry Christmas thing is a misdirection. Nobody actually wants people to replace one with the other; they’re two different greetings/well wishes. Only TV pundits and the people who follow them think there’s a conflict there.

I definitely don’t see ‘happy holidays’ as being PC. I see it as not being so self-absorbed as to think that everyone around you is a Christian. I was raised Christian, and married a Jew, so I may be a little sensitized to this, but I think ‘happy holidays’ is just way more inclusive.

PC ‘ers don’t like how broken eggshells feal at all. Non PC’ers crush those eggshells under foot.

I never really say it but always took it to mean someone is towing the party line.

When I use PC I am not thinking the person is intellectually dishonest. I think the person is being careful to use terms and state thoughts in a way that the powers at be have decided is acceptable in “mixed” company. When someone does not use the PC language, there is more of a risk that someone might feel offended by the words chosen, making assumptions about the intent or feelngs behind the word. For instance, we once had an issue at one of the stores where I worked that two employees had a disagreement. Part of the disagreement was a caucasian employee referred to the other employee as oriental (this was about 15 years ago). The employee accused racism, because the term Asian was not used, but this was during the time that Asian was just becoming the expected term, similar to moving from colored to black to African American. Eventually it was all sorted out, but this reaction to a word, and not willing to hear someone out, is annoying.

Anyway, staying in the PC know, and using the correct terms makes it easier to not offend people it seems. Having to be so careful is frustrating though. It sets up all sorts of stumbling blocks, makes communicating more difficult sometimes. If everyone had a basic trust about open conversation, and better feelings towards each other PC would be less important. I guess it is good in some ways to have some sort of guide regarding what vocabulary/jargon is preferable. Sometimes we are unaware of what is offensive to a group, because we are not inside of that group, so knowing what is expected via PC helps.

Happy Holidays also applies to New Years. Even if you’re Christian it applies.

@Cruiser The quote about the ethnic jokes, that is what I say about the south. Maybe it just is the timing of when I moved. When I was younger we told jokes about ethnic groups (not mean) including our own. We also talked about cultural differences, the food, etc., and we embraced our differences. Where I live now it feels so bland.

@incendiary_dan That is precisely the arena I was referring to. When we have private persoanl conversations PC almost never comes into play. It is this filtered discourse flowing out of our big screens that is the biggest offender. Perhaps offender is not the best word to use as non-PC can actually be more offensive than the refrained discourse of PC dialogue. I guess it is what it is and fortunately we still have the liberty to choose the words we wish to use PC or not!

I’m all for inclusive terms. However I don’t get people being offended at being wished Happy Christmas. Especially if the other person doesn’t know they don’t celebrate it.

Eg in college I didn’t celebrate Christmas but my friends wished me anyway and gave me cards. I didn’t mind.

I reckon it also depends where you’re coming from as a person when you use terms considered to be PC/PinC.

About Happy Holidays, I think it is nice to use the term because it is inclusive, but if someone uses Merry Christmas I don’t think anyone should be all up in arms. It is said with the intention of being nice to the person, and Christians use it without all sorts of thoughts of Christ and God, but in a more secular way. Sure to the non Christian it can be a little odd, but in America, since we have such a large Christian majority, Christmas is everywhere during the holiday season.

The “War on Christmas” folks were/are attempting to blame “liberals” for something that was not politically inspired, but was actually a retailing/advertising decision to encourage more people to shop. It was also recognized by businesses as a way to avoid bothering clients. My employer deals with people of different faiths all over the world; it would be bad business to inadvertently insult those who don’t celebrate Christmas.

Whenever I hear someone say “that’s PC” or “you’re just being PC” I also recognize that the person saying that is attempting to defend a patriarchal discriminatory viewpoint. Language is powerful. When Eastwood says “calling someone “Sam the Jew” or ”‘Jose the Mexican’ – but we didn’t think anything of it or have a racist thought.” he is speaking for himself, but he is not speaking for the person called that. These terms are excluding, not inclusive, and emphasize that the person is different, less-than, and not entitled to be pat of the societal power structure.

Many people who decry “political correct” language often call those who object to such designations as “too sensitive” or as not having a sense of humor. Again, that thought process is divisive and exclusive.

I do use it as shorthand for intellectual dishonesty, simply because I feel the need to draw the distinction between the 7,154 different types of douche-waffles I deal with on a regular basis.

Politically Correct in my mind means taking the least offensive path towards the greatest collective rather than presenting your own experience or belief. I liken it to “Do as I say and not as I do.”

@zenvelo * * * Y A Y * * * very well said.

I think sometimes, especially when someones trying to explain inside information, they can get accused of being politically correct. This is a mistake outside observers could make— I’ve seen it happen frequently when a GLBT explains their community’s inner workings and someone interprets it as a PC push or pitymongering. People on the outside might not recognize their expertise but assume that it’s just some vague PC crap. It would be like listening to a Hmong explain their culture, then accuse them of being PC, when they’re simply trying to explain.

Funny… I was just talking about this last night! The first time in my life I was called politically correct was this: “Welcome to fluther, newb, you’re on a pretty high Politically Correct horse there – let’s see if you’re consistant.”[sic] I was trying to explain something from an insider’s perspective but I doubt the guy knew that. (I laugh about it now…)

Jeez… if I was PC, I’d have turned into a rabid monster racquetball on steroids over the question: “How can deaf people think?”

@zenvelo I’m in agreement with you. Excellent explanation!

Politically correct to me means doing and saying stuff that will get you where you want to go even though you don’t believe it yourself. It’s called hypocrisy.

They are being tiresome, either because they have to be [for political reasons] or because they are prissy or tight-assed.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with being ‘Politically Correct’ when you say something. Usually being ‘PC’ means that people can work together & keeps racist remarks / attitudes from getting in the way of what a group of people are trying to accomplish. I realize that being ‘PC’ does not keep individuals from thinking negative or racist thoughts, but it does keep their thoughts from being expressed to display their negativity. I see nothing wrong with saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas (after all, the early Christian Church chose a Pagan celebration day & appropriated the day for the church with the idea in mind of replacing the Pagan celebration with their Christian idea – there is nothing in the Bible that says anything at all about the time of year when Christ was born & it also says nothing about the 3 wise men following the ‘star’ to Bethlehem – they did not show up until Christ was old enough for he & his family to flee to Egypt !).

@Linda_Owl See that is just a tiny part of the whole PC thing, suggesting that non PC people might be racist. Whether you meant it to come out that way or not, it’s sort of looking like that from my chair. It pigeonholes people into a category that sometimes forces them to be apprehensive about just telling it the way it is without feeling they need to tip toe around some people who are just looking intensively for some form of perceived disrespect when none was intended.

@snowberry and @anartist But how do you decide whether or not the words I’m using reflect my genuine thoughts or are for some ulterior motive? If I say “happy holidays” (Note: I do say Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, and Happy New Year, too, as appropriate) or “mentally handicapped”, it’s because that’s what I actually mean, you know? It’s not like I had to calculate which phrase to use, it’s a natural default for me. Does that make me a hypocrite or a prissy tight-ass?

In addition to that, even if I were carefully choosing my words so as not to offend, why is that a bad thing?

@woodcutter Is intention relevant if it results in a hurt either way?

@incendiary_dan I hope you don’t mind me responding also to your question. I think intention is very relevant. If the person hurt can at least take the time to tell the other person it is hurtful, and why it is hurtful, then the person who did the hurting might change his word choice in the future. If the person hurt just shuts down and is pissed, doesn’t care about intention, then the whole conversation shuts down. I think that is bad. Sometimes people say hurtful things and have no idea it is taken badly by the other person. Ignorance is an excuse in my book on this topic.

I agree with Augustlan __“If I am saying what is on my mind, and I happen to use less offensive terms out of consideration for others, why is that bad? I never feel like I can’t speak honestly and kindly, at the same time, you know? It’s not even a conscious decision… those terms come naturally to me.“__
To some people these terms do not come naturally at all. So in order to create societal pressure to enforce intelligent discourse and to police intolerant and biggoted people in the office setting and the political arena, “Political Correctness” was evolved. Yes, as some have said here, it doesn’t keep a person from thinking the negative disparaging thoughts. But it keeps that person from spewing angry intolerant invective that does nothing to solve a problem and sets an ugly example to others, including our children.
However, political correctness doesn’t mean you have to agree with what other people are saying when you don’t. You don’t have to lie, yhou don’t have to nod your head in agreement, you don’t have to follow along like a sheep. What you are asked to do, to be politically correct is to voice your opinion using intelligent, respectful,fact based arguments vs. hate-mongering, bigoted and emotionally based arguments.
Understood, that sometimes we are debating some very emotionally charged issues where there is a lot at stake. All the more reason why we need impassioned but intelligent arguments to be put forth. If not, the political debate devolves into name calling and holier than thou posturing. It leads to devisiveness.
In personal life being PC takes on a different dimension. In many case when a group of people gather for conversation depending on how close of a friendship they have with each other you have differing degrees of political correctness. Some people feel free to voice what are very un PC statements. In the past I would argue with them if I found something offensive. I found out that it is very hard to change someone’s mind who thinks this way. I call it “willful ignorance” because usually the opinion has no basis in facts and if you counter their arguments with facts they resort to the phrase “I have a right to my opinion.” Yes, everyone does have a right to their opinion. When it’s personal, that’s ok. I can just avoid that person, I can argue with them, I can delete them from my guest list. But if that person is legislating for me, they better back up their opinion with facts.
Now, I sense that I am rambling….

@incendiary_dan yes

@Earthgirl So…. lying and bottling up your emotions until you break at the seams is the type of example we want to set for our kids? Repression and dishonesty? We’re fucked…

@JLeslie I like that explanation. Thanks!

In that respect, it can then be understood someone’s motivations and willingness to extend respect by how they act after constructive conversation. If they go the route of the willful ignorance @Earthgirl spoke of, we can see no intention of respect, whereas willingness to modify one’s word choices would show the respect.

So in a certain sense, I feel that those who routinely complain about political correctness are those that don’t want to have to re-evaluate their words, thoughts, and ultimately how that relates to the position they hold in the world. Discourse reflects real world interplays of privilege and power, and forcing someone with a lot of privilege to notice it will generally cause a strong negative reaction. Their privileged position becomes threatened in their minds.

So it’s no surprise that most that I see and hear complaining about it are white males.

Sometimes it’s really hard to keep up with all the language changes. If you are not on the internet, and don’t get out much, how would you know?
My mom calls black people Negros. That was what she was taught was the polite, kind and was the PC at the time term to use. Is it still OK to use this term? Is it offensive or just out of style? She means no disrespect when she uses it, but I don’t know if it’s OK or not.
I am sure that I use words and terms and phrases that are probably offensive to some folks, but I don’t mean to.

jerv know I was a little long winded, but to repeat, as to your comment, I said:
Political correctness doesn’t mean you have to agree with what other people are saying when you don’t. You don’t have to lie, yhou don’t have to nod your head in agreement, you don’t have to follow along like a sheep. What you are asked to do, to be politically correct is to voice your opinion using intelligent, respectful,fact based arguments vs. hate-mongering, bigoted and emotionally based arguments.

I also think that it’s ok to have emotions, of course. And sometimes in the heat of a discussion/debate we will say something that is angry, insulting, or hurtful. Sometimes it is our intention to wound, to diffuse the feeling we have. Sometimes there is no nice way to say what we think, and even though we can’t keep someone else from feeling hurt by what we have to say, it is our truth, and the way we look at things and we need to say it. It may be constructive albeit hurtful. That’s the problem with too much political correctness. It has good intentions but it can get in the way of honest discourse.
I may have overstated my case a little bit because I can see the truth to what Crusier and others have said, it’s not a good thing to have to self censor every time you open your mouth and have to think once, twice and three times to make sure that nothing you say will be taken the wrong way. There are people who are just looking to be slighted all the time and no matter what you do or how carefully you watch what you say, they will find a way to be insulted.
Ultimately one would hope that in discussing further these misunderstandings could be ironed out. But I still think that shooting off your mouth without thinking, out of an emotional need to lash out and hurt, and engaging in name calling and so on, is not constructive.

Being considerate about other people’s feelings is not equal to lying. As I said above, I never feel like I can’t speak honestly and kindly, at the same time, you know?

It’s the self-censorship that I have a problem with. Some people are so sensitive that I find it impossible not to offend them unintentionally, and I would rather think more about what I an trying to say than in navigating a minefield on a pogo stick trying to come up with politically correct ways to say it.

As you might imagine, I often come across as more of a bastard than I really am for my habit of not saying “darn” when I mean “flaming horse cocks!”, but I feel like some people would rather bullshit with cutesy euphemisms than say what they really feel, and I consider that dishonest to the point of disrespectful. When I come across as crude, it’s because I respect the person I am talking to enough to be honest with them.

@augustlan Some of us don’t have that ability, just as some people can’t program in G-codes or replace a head gasket. We’re all different.

@Augustin Hmmm. I’ll have to re-think.

@jerv I completely understand that some people aren’t ‘PC’ as a default position. I’m not saying everyone should try to be, even. Though a case could be made for that, this isn’t that discussion. Just wondering why some people assume that those of us who are that way are being disingenuous or even flat out lying? Why jump to a negative assumption? Why not just assume benevolent, or at least neutral, intent?

I believe some of the ire comes from the perception the PC rules apply to one segment of society and not others. It’s the blatant double standard that leaves the bitter taste.

Being PC goes beyond just language. It also features in body language and and actions towards another. When our company went global, they held courses on customs for the countries we would be visiting, e.g. bowing, speaking second, handing out a business card, presenting a gift, not touching, kissing both cheeks. Aren’t these examples of being PC?

I don’t understand why anyone would judge another for doing or saying something that is PC, even if they turn it off while out of sight or not within earshot. Yes, I see how it could be construed as being fake, but the way that I look at it, it is still a sign of respect on their part in doing so. If someone always has the PC switch to ON, it means that they care enough about others to embrace and adapt to the desires of those around them. I see nothing wrong with that.

I think @woodcutter hit the nail on the head for me.

woodcutter Can you elaborate a little more on the double standard? Can you give me an example? I’m not sure I understand.

Which segments are exempt from being considerate? I’m guessing you’re talking about minorities. Specifically the fact that some black people use the “N word” and white people can’t. Is that right? I can see your point, but I would argue that just because some do use it doesn’t mean that it’s ok that they do. So would many black people, for that matter. That’s all a distraction anyway, though. Just because some people use hurtful words, why would you (the general you, not directed to anyone specific) want to do the same?

It seems when we finally got the white rash to stop calling black people boy and nigger, everybody wanted to be a special class. I no longer know what will get me in trouble anymore. I know that I got my mouth washed out with soap (in the 1950’s) for using the N word.

Without getting back into the considerate angle because that is totally subjective depending on how badly someone wants to make some hay out of things but, and really the “n” word is so far over the top it isn’t even in the same planet as politically incorrect or not. When dumb asses use that one , politically correctness isn’t even on the map. That is a different thing all together. It’s not a tit for tat really. The whole politically correct dogma is really a manual for white people to use in order to not accidentally say things to make themselves look bad in the eye’s of insecure and oversensitive people, many who are just waiting for the tiniest slip so they can get back into being the victim. it’s as almost as if they need to feel it so they don’t loose where they came from? Instead of being forward looking and understanding it’s a slow process for them not to feel put upon by the smallest amount of criticism when it’s deserved. Everyone fucks up but you had better not make much of a minority doing it or else you will get that label that is pretty hard to wash off. I just think calling someone intolerant or bigoted or even dare I say racist is the ultimate throw down, the cobalt bomb of end- all’s and it gets used too liberally sometimes just to try to make someone shut the fuck up.

@augustlan I will give the same answer I did to the recent question about people painting with a broad brush; experience. While I have met some people who were both honest and genuinely nice, my experience shows that the nice people are at best a 50/50 proposition whereas the non-PC crowd at least allow you to know where you stand unequivocally.

And regardless of whether someone is PC or not, I generally regard them with skepticism and assume selfishness until I see evidence to the contrary. Again, experience.

@jerv I’m sorry that’s been your experience. It makes me kind of sad, honestly. Cynicism can really get in the way of a happy life. I swear I’m not meaning this as condescending as it sounds. I really do mean that cynicism makes me sad.

@woodcutter I completely disagree that it’s a ‘manual for white people’. Politically correct terms cover far more than race relations. Think of ‘mentally handicapped’ versus ‘retarded’, ‘mute’ versus ‘dumb’, or ‘pro-life’ versus ‘anti-choice’ for example.

All hateful language is wrong, that’s not even on the table in civilized exchanges. I think it gets too complicated with say this don’t say this, it’s the splitting hairs thing. And there are those who probably didn’t even know a term was politically incorrect until someone told them they should be getting mad about it.

@augustlan I know you well enough to know you mean it.

@jerv Thanks, darlin’. :)

I knew I shouldn’t have sounded off on this Q. Augustlan is right of course honest words that do not offend are of course a better choice, especially with an unknown audience. And I have made mistakes even with a ‘known’ audience. It is just that I enjoy language of all sorts, including colloquialisms, and local crudities and rudities and hope we all have the have the ability to not take labels seriously ourselves. I have generically been called a cunt and a honkey and a shiksa and have lived through it.

@anartist One person’s ability to overlook/overcome adversity is not the point. You might have a thick skin, but as a whole, those words are deliberately denigrating and demeaning.

You know @YARNLADY I do not have a particularly “thick” skin. I take personally targeted insults, especially those that cut close to the bone, those about character or ability, painfully. I just do not find crude stupid stereotype humor or gaffes equally painful.

I miss Pollack jokes!