Why do women who favor equality get so infuriated over women who tolerate or live by choice in a patriarchy?

Everyone should be equal. It pisses me off that women in the middle east aren’t allowed to go outside unless there’s a man with them. It pisses me off that they have to cover their faces. It pisses me off that in some countries, being beaten is a sign of ’‘love’’. (such examples, among many other things that have nothing to do with women in particular, like Japan’s frightening consent laws which affect both men and women, or how in some places, albinos are hunted for their limbs and blood and nobody does shit about that)

If those women accept it, or if that’s all they’ve known, well okay. I ain’t here to convert a single fuckin soul. But I’m of the mind that chicks in cultures and countries where men dominate can’t do dick about it, and that’s what angers me. It could be different, but it ain’t. I mean Canada and the United States aren’t perfect, but I’d sure as Christ all Hell much rather live where I do than just about anywhere else. Of course it angers me.

As I say, it’s not up to me to say how people should live and how they should be happy, but I most certainly do think that in a lot of places, many women would be way happier if there wasn’t that whole dominance shit goin on. Hell, sometimes it’s a lot closer to home than some may imagine.

It’s all about choice, really. How can a woman in a male dominated society really have a choice, if that is the way things are?

First you have to clear your mind of gender.. These women are individuall thinkers and individual thinkers must be equal to other individual thinkers in their minds (and rightfully so).. Their irate because society (and sometimes the law) does look at gender.. The answer will soon become apperent as soon as same sex marriages evolve.. Who for instance will be the dominant force between the association of two men and who (if either) of two women..? Only when we can look upon each other as genderless equals might we all have a chance to live as we envision human kind.

@YARNLADY That’s what pisses me off; lack of choice.

Wouldn’t you be infuriated if there were men who were living in societies where the women were in charge, and they weren’t just ok with it, they preferred it that way? I seriously doubt that you, Hypocrisy, would in any way be cool about that, since it seems to chaff your hide when anyone doesn’t see as you see.

Because they realize that the “Men should dominate me” way of thinking is 1) wrong, 2) moronic, 3) dangerous, 4) non-progressive, 5) the result of a severe case of Stockholm Syndrome.

If I argued to you that 2+2=5, with absolute sincerity, and lived by that “fact”, and I got riled up when you tried to teach me that 2+2=4, wouldn’t you be slightly annoyed?

The fact that you wrote a phrase like “those women who believe women should be equal to men” says a lot.

I think it is because of the unfairness, and waste of human capital and wellbeing that such societies bring, that people looking in from the outside would like them to change. That is a prime reason for me, at least. I deal poorly with unfairness and want to change that. (Whenever I am aware of it and feel I can do something about it.)

Women in these societies are cultural agents, they are the ones that primarily raise the children and form the ideas their children have. So in this case they are both victim and perpetrator. May very well be a variety of Stockholm Syndrom, indeed, as mentioned above by @Sarcasm.

In any which way they hurt themselves and their children and that angers me.

You know what gets me about it, well I’ll tell you. We live in the tropics, the temps in the wet go well over 100 and the humidity matches. Now we have this couple walking down the street, the male is dressed as we all dress in the tropics, wearing boardies and a tshirt, then comes the woman, dressed head to toe in black, even her face covered except for her eyeballs. Can you imagine what the temp must be inside that all that black fabric!

If she were equal and free to dress as she pleases, I can’t imagine that is the get up she would choose.

That is why I rant and rail, I say find yourself a god who doesn’t have a dress code, who is more involved in important matters such as creating a new universe or something like that.

@rooeytoo Boardies = shorts?

@Symbeline If those women accept it, or if that’s all they’ve known, well okay. I ain’t here to convert a single fuckin soul. But I’m of the mind that chicks in cultures and countries where men dominate can’t do dick about it, and that’s what angers me. And if women know there is another way out there but care not to be apart of it as the Amish, Mennonites, and some LDS communities? These people are not isolated on some island where the rest of the world is not seen, or they are completely separate. If they know there is different out there but don’t want any part of it, who is to tell them ”this is what you should have”?

@chewhorse _ The answer will soon become apperent as soon as same sex marriages evolve._ If these people want nothing to do with that an want and like dealing with life in the construct of traditional genders; they want men to act like men, and women to act like women, in the traditional sense, why force them to accept no gender?

@Aethelflaed Wouldn’t you be infuriated if there were men who were living in societies where the women were in charge, and they weren’t just ok with it, they preferred it that way? Lets go for the higher hanging fruit. If men were in a society where they were forced to live under such conditions, and they didn’t like it. Of course, no one would want to live like that. There was a culture in the US, and maybe still here latently, where if you had the wrong pedigree you were only allowed to rise so far, go only so many places, etc. If there was such a society and men there accepted it and thought it cool, even if it was systemic through out the land and there was no alternative, if they had freedom to leave to go where they would have freedom but chose to remain, how can I fault their decision?

@Sarcasm Because they realize that the “Men should dominate me” way of thinking is 1) wrong, 2) moronic, 3) dangerous, 4) non-progressive, 5) the result of a severe case of Stockholm Syndrome. Everybody follows some rule or leader. So, the question is not authority but who has it and who chooses to lets them have it? If we were talking about a society that agree to follow some other person be he man or woman, they are not idiots because they choose not to go their own way but to allow a person or persons to rule or govern them? Why would that not be dangerous, to place your safety and lives in the hands of anyone for that matter?

@rooeytoo Now we have this couple walking down the street, the male is dressed as we all dress in the tropics, wearing boardies and a tshirt, then comes the woman, dressed head to toe in black, even her face covered except for her eyeballs. Can you imagine what the temp must be inside that all that black fabric! Some Arab women living in non-Arab nations, like France, are fighting to be under that burka. Those interviewed on Nightline and 20/20 must be good liars when they say it is actually very light material and the myth us Westerners have that they are roasting under there is far from true.

I think it’s pointless to meddle over something that isn’t your business even though it’s indirectly-related to you (as an independent woman), unless they’re that feminist.

I won’t blame women who prefer men to dominate them, aside from the ‘unfair’ rules, since I believe they’re fairly dependent women that won’t survive without the presence of their more ‘sophisticated’ male counterparts, men. It’s also an advantage for females if they surrender their status to males but being sustained by them in long run, rather than fight for independence that won’t do much for them. I, however, prefer equality.

This thread is going to be a whopper.

@Hypocrisy_Central – I think if you have been brainwashed all your life to speak and act in a certain way, then that is what you do. I know nuns who said it was hot as hell under all that black. Black absorbs heat and light, so I have my doubts.

@Your_Majesty – you are right, it is none of my business, but I still think they are all a little bit troppo and if they knew better would be fighting it.

@FutureMemory – yep, board shorts = boardies!

@Hypocrisy_Central I’m pretty sure what you quoted from me answers your own question. :p
There’s only so much one can do, as some shit people gotta figure out themselves. Which is even sicker in a place where they can, but don’t.

To answer your question, I guess their heritage, and culture to which they belong, wherever they reside. Influence is strong. I’ve known Amish people back in Winnipeg. Again, I don’t claim to know what’s right for a single muffuga on this earth. I never did. If some chicks wanna be inferior, well good for them. I just don’t believe that. I would tell them otherwise, but will leave them alone if they tell me to fuck off or if someone beats me up or shoots me. I don’t get you though. You must know that female inferiority can be cruel and painful, yet you seem to be okay with that, if they accept it. Why?

I’m not trying to be all intellimagent or wise, but sometimes, people need to be told, like some of those women, or the men ruling them.

There is a difference here in how you look at this…either the women in these situations have a choice…lookingat travellers it seems that the women in this.culture want to be traditional housewives…looking after the home family and man, from programmes I have watched more or them seem happy to do this than not! (personally I would love to not have to work and be able to stay at home and spend time with my children, clean and be given money to make.myself.look good…better than working 730–6 working again when I get home, not being able.to.spend.quality time with each other) That is not to say that some are unhappy, these either leave the community are trapped in an abusive relationship (just a foot note….it isnt just traveller/ muslim communities where women are oppressed there are lots of women out their stuck in domestic violence situations that dont have the choice of of freedom. Some women CHOOSE to live in this role and are happy, who are we to judge? Some are not and it is up to ‘us’ to offer support, guidance, advice and comfort to help those.

@rooeytoo @Hypocrisy_Central – I think if you have been brainwashed all your life to speak and act in a certain way, then that is what you do. Brainwashing, and interesting term. How many things can be seen as brainwashing to other in other cultures about thing done here in the US? I guess if you are in favor of what you are being told, and always have been told, it is not brainwashing. If it is something you don’t like, then it is brainwashing. I guess those in India can say we have been brainwashed by the cattle industry to eat cows. So who is to say we here in the US hasn’t been brainwashed? I am sure somewhere in the world they believe we have in some capacity.

@Symbeline I don’t get you though. You must know that female inferiority can be cruel and painful, yet you seem to be okay with that, if they accept it. Why? If it is a forced subjection that is different than someone willing following. To a point everyone makes a choice to follow who they follow. Sometimes it is because they don’t have the might or means to do anything else and have to for self-reservation. Other times it is because they believe in the person or the system. I have not seen cruelty, menace, etc in the Amish, Mennonite, or Traveler communities, at least what the media was able to show of it. If the women of those communities are find with the order of things, why should I complain and try to take it from them even if I think there is a better way? The US fought a long Cold War because other people thought everyone should have everything equally and, be provided for according to their needs. Be it communism or socialism they thought it the cat’s meow, we in the US thought it disastrous and wanted none of it, and still don’t. Some people love communism and socialism, it makes sense to them, and if they wanted to be under one of those systems, who am I to tell them they are wrong and what I live under is so much better?

Let me ask you this. If nudist caught fire and they became the dominant force and they were saying everyone who chose to wear clothes were brainwashed by the textile industry or hanging on to latent modesty due to their regressive religion and the best way to free yourselves was to shed your clothes, be free and au natural. Where no one can get judge by what they wear because no one would be wearing anything. Would you shuck your clothes aside and go nude from that point on? How many of your friends and family do you believe would go nude, because others told them, ”it is better”? If you liked wearing clothes because that is what you always had, would you be doing so because you were brainwashed? Would you not give up clothes because you couldn’t think for yourself or was ignorant? Would you wear clothes because that was your choice, and what you liked?

I love clothes. And I seek to take nothing away from anyone, no matter what I believe or feel. I’m not sure how else to say what I’ve been trying to say.

@Hypocrisy_Central – well I guess if I am brainwashed in that I like to wear clothing suited to the climate, or I like to be able to tell my husband he is in charge of cooking dinner tonight, or that I am going out to play tennis or do anything that to me means that I am equal, then yeppers, I am brainwashed too!

Everyone should be equal but it’s a matter of choice. I don’t understand why those who like it are “hated” by the rest because they don’t support their “righteous” cause. Some just think those who live that way lower themselves but they won’t admit these women like it that way.

@Hibernate How can they know that they like it if they’ve never been given the chance to even explore it in any way?

You misunderstood me. I’m all in favor of those who want to do as they please. And if a woman is for equality get furious about others tolerating patriarchy then I don’t get it. And when a woman lets the husband to be in charge of most things then obviously she tried it.

I think the very important word here is CHOICE. There are women, at this very moment, marching in the streets in Cairo, demanding their rights as equal citizens because before the recent revolution, they had no voice and no choice… now they are fighting for one.

Women in Saudia Arabia drove cars as a mass protest, breaking the law, to that they want a CHOICE as to drive or not. I don’t care if she drives or has a man drive her, but she should have the CHOICE.

Young women indoctrinated into a way of life where they know no other, I don’t know how that translates into choice. I have met people in the life you talk about, Mennonites and Adventists, and I actually admire the women. They have a sense of pride and independence I can only dream of.

@cazzie Excellent post.

@Hypocrisy_ “Central Some Arab women living in non-Arab nations, like France, are fighting to be under that burka. Those interviewed on Nightline and 20/20 must be good liars when they say it is actually very light material and the myth us Westerners have that they are roasting under there is far from true.”

I live in the USA. I know women who fully promote and wear the full black cover-up. When they go out in 100+ degree heat, if there’s a bit of shade, they go out of their way to walk in it, even if it takes them twice as long to get to where they are going. Others who don’t wear all that, including myself, just hurry through the sunshine to get inside where it’s cooler. It doesn’t matter what those women said on TV, this is how they do it in real life. It really IS hotter under all that fabric, lightweight as it is.

So, your premise is “If they seem happy with it, why should it bother us?”, right? Ok, so let’s see if that holds water.

A child is raised by parents who beat him for breaking minor rules, never let him leave the house, and keep him in a cage at night. He is slightly malnourished, but gets enough food, served out of a dog dish, to survive. He has never known any other life, and believes that this is completely normal. When he is not being beaten, he is reasonably content, but is very careful not to break any rules.

This child grows into a subservient adult, living the exact same life he’s always known, still beaten, caged, barely fed, and still reasonably content because that’s all he’s ever known. Would any of us be fine with his “choice” to continue living this way? I think not.

Your premise is leaking.

@augustlan I understand your reasoning and that stands for those women who are forced but there are some women out there who choose to wear it.

I don’t think anyone here would stand back and say what goes on behind closed doors is none of our business (as used to be the case in domestic volence situations) if people are suffering, but as with most things there are different view points.

We do not know what others are thinking, you may look at one woman wearing a burka and think poor woman she shouldn’t have to put up with that, and she might be looking at you and thinking help me! But she may be thinking I’m happy I have a husband who cares for me I have a religion I believe strongly in and I am secure in my faith….who knows?

We cannot put all Muslim/burka wearing woman under the same umberella. I think this is the point that @Hypocrisy_Central was trying to make? Some women may choose to wear full burka dress others may not… but for those who choose to wear it who are we to say it is wrong? and deny them full rights to wear it.

I have a lady friend here in the US who is frustrated if not totally infuriated with a female apartment next door neighbor who wears a religious black overall everyday. She sees the clothes as a symbol of oppression and wonders why an American female such as this neighbor would practice this. I told her we don’t know anything about her religion and I think this is her choice.

@Hypocrisy_Central Can I just point out that we have been brainwashed to eat cows? Well, actually, I’d like to use a different word. Conditioned.

I think that people can be conditioned over time to believe that what they are living is the good life. Let me just say that I believe that the hijab or burka can actually be liberating for some women and is a choice, at least in Australia and America. They choose to wear it because they do not want to be judged on appearance but ability, for example. And as for the debate about police and bankers- a poll was taken in Australia recently and it showed that most women who wear the face coverings are perfectly happy to take them off but only in the presence of a police woman or female banker, as is their perogative.

But anyway, that’s another story. But in these other cultures, by looking at all the evidence, we can assume that most women are conditioned to believe that their situation is good, when it is in fact not.

I mean… if their situation was good then why are so many people fighting to get out of it? Your analogy of the nudists is weak, how many people do you see fighting for the world to become nudists? What would be the point? How would that actually make the world a better place? And now how many women do you see fighting for equality? A lot. Evidence shows that it is better, and while women in the cultures you say might be able to see the outside world “choose” not to because they have to choose not to.

How hard do you think it would be for an Amish girl to rebel and defy her family, leave everything she has ever known (and been told is good) and go out into the wide world and start from scratch. Do you think her father or town leader would support her in this venture? She would be disowned and shunned, don’t you think? So even offered the choice she would be too scared to make it or too conditioned to think that it is better.

And that is why people feel the need to step in.

Here you go again, @Hypocrisy_Central! Another false premise for your question.

All women who favor equality do not “get so infuriated over women who tolerate or live by choice in a patriarchy”.

In your premise, you are claiming that the women in the cultures you mention are happy. Where is your evidence for that?

They very well might not know any other way is possible. Their exposure to the outside world in these cultures is minimal at best. They have been raised in these ways from childhood.

We get angry over the systems that keep these women oppressed, by the men who think they are entitled to use women as chattel.

@shrubbery At least with the group I work with, that’s pretty much exactly the way it is. Where these women come from, they practice honor kiling. If she’s been defiled in any way (or perceived to have been defiled, she can be killed or forced to remain celibate for the rest of her life.

That goes for a vaginal exam as well. Nobody gets to even LOOK down there until she’s been married. It creates a problem if she’s got a female problem and she’s still a virgin. There’s nothing a doctor can do.

If a culture exists where a woman is raped and gets hanged for it while the man (who was married to someone else) gets a measly sentence then women who can, nay, anyone, should be doing something about it. As @marinelife says, your premise is false.

@shrubbery ‘brainwashed to eat cows’.... well, Hindus are ‘brainwashed’ to not eat cows. but what is the harm? (except to the cows… ahem)

You can assume all you want, the details of what you think their lives are like and how you want to judge them based on your assumptions. You are assuming that the woman’s husband MAKES her wear that and believes in some twisted Islamic law that a raped woman should be killed.. and I’m telling you, you assume too much and judge too much based on those assumptions.

What happened to that old democratic value, ‘I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to my death, your right to say it.’ I think this goes the same way.

@cazzie, that is a whole other debate entirely, of which other people can talk about much better than I, as am I new to the vegetarian/veganism and still reading material. But basically our bodies do not need nearly as much (if any) meat and dairy as our governments make us think we do. It is just one of their greatest revenues, for one example the food pyramid that had meat at the bottom or whatever was completely made up.

I will never, EVER understand why any woman with even a MODICUM of selt-respect would submit to the insanity called Islam!

Anyone could say the same for Christianity. (judge not…??)

@CaptainHarley Have you looked closely at huge swathes of Christian religion?!?

And please, people, don’t confuse Islam with the varying cultures that happen to practice that religion. Turkish women don’t run around in berkas, etc, etc…. Watch the width of the brush you use to paint your views with.

I knew there would be those who would immediately use any statement against Islam as their cue to attack Chtistianity. Those who do this lack both wisdom and truth. Sorry. My incredulity at those women who give permission ( either tacit or explicit ) to have themselves beaten and even killed by their Muslim husbands still stands.

BTW .. since when do two wrongs make a right?

@CaptainHarley you have a hellofa wide brush you paint your opinions with. (probably black and white as well?)

Making sweeping and rash comments about a culture is not only ignorant, but also dangerous and builds fear and hate. Can we please learn from our past mistakes? This is where a little knowledge truly is a dangerous thing.

Yes, facts are indeed dangerous, which may go a long way toward explaining why liberals avoid like the plague coming to grips with them.

@CaptainHarley REALLY? Of course, men living in a Christian country would never hit or kill their wives…. come on. In the US, in 2005, 1,181 women were murdered by an intimate partner. That’s an average of three women every day. Of all the women murdered in the U.S., about one-third were killed by an intimate partner. Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Homicide Victims by Gender

When people say that those women really like it that way, it often sounds like when a teenagers explains to their parent that the reason they never take out the trash is because they believed the parent loved doing that chore, and they didn’t want to take it away from them. Which is to say, a bullshit excuse.

@CaptainHarley If you don’t want people to make generalizations about conservatives or Christians, perhaps you should act how you want them to act and end the generalizations about liberals and Muslims.

You assume that silence equals acceptance. There are feminists in every culture. Read a fuckin’ book.

Women who aren’t allowed an
education, who aren’t allowed
access to the outside world, who fear death or dismemberment for perceived offenses aren’t going to go about making signs and burning bras. They exert themselves in other ways, ways you will never understand or witness.

@cazzie

I never said that. Nice straw man.

@CaptainHarley Take your hate somewhere else. No one is buying it here.

@sakura I’m honestly not talking about the burka (especially not about women who were raised in western countries and later decide to wear it in solidarity or whatever). What I’m trying to compare is any complete lifestyle one has known since birth and accepts as ‘normal’, when most reasonable people would immediately see as ‘harmful’.

@CaptainHarley Read up on Southern Baptists. “A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ.” Plenty of oppression there, too.

@augustlan and they conveniently edited the second half of that statement… for the husband to love and honor his wife as he loves and honors God.

@CaptainHarley So, you make a sweeping statement about one religion, and it’s okay.. But when other people respond about your own religion, that’s an “attack” on it, and it’s lacking in “wisdom and truth”? And then you go on to make statements about liberals too? Do you lack any modicum of self-respect like the Muslim women do?
You may think that “facts are dangerous” but your myths are even more dangerous.

Open up your bible. Find 1 Tim 2:11–12 for me. And then find 1 Corr 14:34–35 for me. Or just read This. Christianity is just as bad as Islam. They both come from the same place, same time, and same kind of people.

I think it’s easy for us to sit here with our lifestyles and judge something we see that doesn’t fit our opinion of ‘normal’. Looking at something on the surface isn’t going to tell you much of what their lives are really like. You may have a work colleague whom you think is leading ap perfectly normal life, but, who goes home and on weekends her boyfriend abused her to the points of bruises she has to cover with clothes or make up or locks herself in the bathroom and sleep in the bath tub. Or maybe she/he is abusive to her/his kids.. and you don’t know this… she looks normal to you.

How do you know the person who sticks out in a crowd is the one in a harmful situation and not the person you don’t notice who is sitting right next to you?

Spend some time with a real social worker who works cases like you’re talking about and then come tell us what you saw.

@CaptainHarley you say facts are dangerous? (Completely misinterpreting what I wrote.) I said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. A little… knowledge which is what your broad based, anti-Muslim rants are all about. Do you have any Muslim friends? Have you spent any time in Muslim country or visited a mosque?

Well, at least I give you people something on which to focus all that hate. You’re welcome.

And yet, you never learn. To not respond to bigotry is to be an accessory to a crime.

@CaptainHarley Hate? Don’t flatter yourself. But I promised myself that if anyone came out with an ignorant anti-Muslim tirade, I would call them out on the floor and have people listen to their rant. You want to say anything else.. while we’re listening?

Only this: http://youtu.be/Ib9rofXQl6w

BTW… most sites would call that “flame-bait.” That Fluther doesn’t call it that is instructive.

Flame bait? Who dropped a sweeping statement against 1.5 billion people?

“Until we’re all free, none are free.”

Again… confusing the religion with the culture….... and I could put together a pretty terrifying movie about Christian fundamentalists and Jews and the bible too. If you follow my posts, you’ll know I’m pretty anti-religion. I think it’s all a crock of shit and should be, somehow, erased from our collective memory. I do NOT believe that making sweeping statements and hate speech is the answer. You fought for your country’s democracy. Vote. Putting up barriers and scaremongering never did any country any good. Educate. Vote.

@augustlan I agree with the principle behind what you are saying that anyone who is told from the start that they have to do.something and thats the only way can be dangerous…but perhaps I misinterpreted your post as it seemed to suggest that you were backing the idea that all people who are choosing to wear burkas have been told that it has to be worn and dont have a choice and its considered normal, as a child who is beaten from birth may consider this normal behaviour. But to me the wearing of a burka etc… Is not always forced, sometimes there is an element of choice and it hasnt been forced on from birth.

Just a thought but couldnt examples of people controlling what’s right and and wrong in peoples lives be found across all religions race creed nationalities, here in England football is.a religion and children ar brought up to believe that their team is the best and no other can compare….innocent enough maybe but can lead to extreme football hooliganisim, fights on the playground etc…

But back to the question all woman have rights just as men many people have died in this world to give us freedom of speech and the freedom to live our lives as we so wish, within the confines of the law. To me if everybody concentrated on living their own lives to the best of their abilities and left others alone the world would be peaceful….and no that doesnt mean I want to close my eyes and ignore any wrong doing, its just that so many people are quick to judge others comparing them to their own way of living when who is to say what is the right way and the wrong way to live a life?

@snowberry I live in the USA. I know women who fully promote and wear the full black cover-up. When they go out in 100+ degree heat, if there’s a bit of shade, they go out of their way to walk in it, even if it takes them twice as long to get to where they are going. The operative word there is live in the USA, that right there disqualifies everything. If we are going to use ”in the USA” as some litmus test of correctness, because most of the rest of the world is not gunning themselves down in the street, at least those areas we don’t all the 3rd world, they are not doing it the right American way? Because their teen women are not becoming knocked up quicker than mushrooms growing in a spring meadow after a nice warm shower, they are not doing it the correct American way. What they do here, and how they do it in France or other parts of Europe I would guess is different. I am supposed to believe that these women in the US are more truthful just because they are in the US?

@augustlan A child is raised by parents who beat him for breaking minor rules, never let him leave the house, and keep him in a cage at night. He is slightly malnourished, but gets enough food, served out of a dog dish, to survive. Still watertight as ever. That situation you speak of has so little in connection with what I am saying a microscope might be in order to see it. You say ” never let him leave the house”, more of them women than not get to mingle with those who have so much freedom they can sport virtual balls. The Traveler women of the UK mingle with non-Travelers all the time. They see how the rest of the women act and behave but they chose not to accept it, pitty those poor dumb UK hicks, huh? The Amish are not complete unto themselves with their own hospitals, police, national guard, factories, etc. They don’t live on reservations where the outside world has to show their credentials at the check point to pass through or all vehicles are inspected to make sure no Amish is fleeing the coop. They can see what is outside their community but they choose to live in their community, it works for them. No one is chaining them to the radiator feeding them rotting food from a dog dish and not letting them see anything of the outside world. Even many Arab women travel out of the Middle East to other places and even more secular and liberal Middle Eastern nations. Yet many stay in their homeland and are happy to do so.

@sakura I think this is the point that @Hypocrisy_Central was trying to make? Some women may choose to wear full burka dress others may not… but for those who choose to wear it who are we to say it is wrong? and deny them full rights to wear it. Sokath. His eyes uncovered! You have to be a Star Trek fan to get that. Finally some reason and sense in the sea of strife. Not all women who would wear a burka or live in a society or community do so because they are ignorant, slow, lack self-esteem, stupid, dumb or any such thing. Yet to those who don’t like that or see the burka like a swastika and some symbol that threatens them, they wish NO ONE to do it, even those who say they are cool with it. There are people on this globe that will look at how women dress in the US is un-cool, and that by doing so women here are loose, depraved, unwholesome, etc. Women here would disagree and not believe they are doing wrong and annoyed that someone will try to tell them what they should wear or how they should wear it.

@mazingerz88 I have a lady friend here in the US who is frustrated if not totally infuriated with a female apartment next door neighbor who wears a religious black overall everyday. She sees the clothes as a symbol of oppression and wonders why an American female such as this neighbor would practice this. That pretty well sums up the whole question and the responses to it. Women feel threaten by it or it represents what they don’t like so even if a woman chooses to do it, and it is not a crime, or harming anyone, they should be dissuades from doing it.

@Hypocrisy_Central Can I just point out that we have been brainwashed to eat cows? Well, actually, I’d like to use a different word. Conditioned. Mankind has been hunting, and gathering long before he was hoeing rows of soybeans, and corn. For centuries, man has gotten his food off the vine or the hoof. Man was nomadic because he had to follow the food source.

@marinelife In your premise, you are claiming that the women in the cultures you mention are happy. Where is your evidence for that? Watch this closely and play attention 5:28 sec in, and this from 7min and 44sec in to 9min and 19sec. I know you believe the makers of the documentary is pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes or they paid the women off to say what they said, or maybe that they said those things because in the midst of the UK they are blind to the world they travel through daily or just brainwashed not to see it. That is an example of women who seem happy with that arrangement. How many more examples would you need before you believe some women actually prefer it, five, seven, thirty-two? How many do you have that says every woman hates it or just goes along with it?

(I want to thank the mods for letting me get off topic with @CaptainHarley. We’re still mourning our dead here and I need to vent a little. Thank you.)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__hspjzfC024/TF3m32Ih6aI/AAAAAAAABvA/I5Ev31UE7bU/s1600/anti+sharia-6.jpg

You are not listening to what is being said to you. You are completely missing the point of these peoples counter arguments. Out of my entire response that is what you address? You talked about the Amish again, and I will again say that it may appear that they have a choice in that they can see the outside world and do nothing but it really isnt a choice when they are conditioned to believe their way is better and even if they wanted to leave they probably couldn’t.

I’m not saying that there wouldn’t be any women who do have a real choice, I’m sure there are and they are free to be happy under a patriarchy if they wish. However, they would he the exception, not the rule, and that is why those who know better (I understand how that is a shakey statement but see my other response) feel like they should do something.

[mod says] It’s getting a little flamey in here, folks, even for Social. Please try to be civil, even if we can’t all agree.

@Hypocrisy_Central Eh, What??? LOL

A) I want to repeat, yet again, that I was not talking about the burka.
B) @Hypocrisy_Central You are missing the entire point. If your premise is a good, logical one, it will hold up no matter what examples you use. It doesn’t.

Most people, raised to believe that their way of life is not only completely normal, but is also the only moral way to live, will continue to accept that way of life as adults… whether it’s a fantastic one, an utterly horrific one, or one somewhere in the middle. Especially if a major change comes along with threats of violence, loss of family or even an entire community. What you call a ‘choice’ is not so simple.

Onlookers who care about others’ well-being will still see oppression, subjugation, violence, etc. if they are occurring, and NO, we won’t be ok with it. That is the point.

Just out of curiosity, do you ever see the holes in your arguments? Are you ever swayed, even a tiny little bit?

@augustlan Don’t forget he has logic on his side :/

@augustlan You say that “Onlookers who care about others´well being will still see oppression, subjugation, violence, etc” Well, next time you see someone in this situation, why don´t you ask how they can live in such an oppressed society. They may feel sorry for you. You are projecting your own social ideas onto another culture. And it is really insulting to the women you are professing to care about.

This is America where I live. We have rules to enable people to live together. The most basic of those rules are in the US Constitution. Other rules ( called laws ) are instituted to implement and clarify the rules in the Constitution. These rules, taken together, form the basis of our society. They define, among other things, abuse, pedophilia, violence, etc.

In many Islamic states, they also have rules, which are codified in the Quoran. The article below shows how some of those rules are implemented.

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/10011/rationalizing-pedophilia-in-islam

Yeah, well, the US has a way to go when it comes to protecting their citizens from any sort of abuse in the guise of religious rights. http://religiouschildabuse.blogspot.com/2010/12/utah-supreme-court-decides-to-not.html
http://religiouschildabuse.blogspot.com/2010/12/child-bride-key-witness-against-warren.html

Utah overturned his conviction. How did they manage to rationalise that one. Glad Texas and Arizona have done something with stronger charges, but this man wouldn’t have been standing trial anywhere, if it wasn’t for the fact that several of the woman he abused directly or indirectly spoke up.

Obviously, under age girls forced to marry in a polygamist cult don’t have much of a choice and have come out and said something and this guy is and has faced charges in courtrooms in three States.

Rather than shaming the girls and making them feel like pariahs in society by telling them their stupid for doing what they’re doing, let them know that there are people they can turn to for understanding and help. Not a, ‘I told you so. What did you expect, you stupid girl. You were only asking for it, living like that.’ lecture.

Now, if law enforcement agencies and social workers (omg… yes, that liberal idea of helping people in the community with tax dollars.. shock horror) don’t take an ignorant, knee jerk approach to assisting victims of abuse, then paedophiles, polygamists and wife beaters can be brought to justice, where ever they are and despite what they use to rationalise their behaviour.

@cazzie @augustlan You say that “Onlookers who care about others´well being will still see oppression, subjugation, violence, etc” Well, next time you see someone in this situation, why don´t you ask how they can live in such an oppressed society. They may feel sorry for you. You are projecting your own social ideas onto another culture. And it is really insulting to the women you are professing to care about.

Why would someone living under oppressive conditions feel sorry for the person that asks them about their situation? I don’t understand.

@augustlan Most people, raised to believe that their way of life is not only completely normal, but is also the only moral way to live, will continue to accept that way of life as adults Really? Are you not a preponderance of evidence to that being false? You can vote, you are not stuck at home being a homemaker; you can even be president of a company. Here in the US, many grew up under certain conditions, many would say was wrong or less than perfect. Women, Native Americans, the disabled and African American grew up under conditions that were not very pleasant or favorable to them. They didn’t just shrug their shoulders and say, ”guess we have to accept it, even if we know this isn’t right, we don’t have anything better or will lose what we have so best make the best of it”. Women, Blacks, the disabled, all sought better, not just grew up and accepted the usual as the only normal way of life. When they had the chance to change it, sometimes with spilled blood, they sought change.

That is all an end around of the real issue. You have not addressed the Traveler women, the Amish, or those in certain areas of LDS that have the option of not going along with male rule but choose to anyhow. To simply say they had nowhere else to go so they had to stay and put up with it, is a folie à deux. Women in the US did not say they had to be stuck in the home or if working outside the home be regulated to waitress, secretary, meter maid, etc. because they had no other place to go. Some women fully know how other women live, and that they reject male only rule, but they chose not to follow that thinking and stick with male rule. That is a fact. One can say those women are dumb, stupid, idiotic, etc for wanting to do so. And one could say those wanting to be treated as men secretly want to be men. Conjecture and opinion can be a lot of things but it is not the actual fact. The actual fact is that many women who have the option not to follow male rule do so and do so willingly.

Just out of curiosity, do you ever see the holes in your arguments? Are you ever swayed, even a tiny little bit? More times than you know. If someone can be at the address and not just in the neighborhood, I can. Don’t give me pumpernickel and tell me it is still bread when I asked for sourdough.

@FutureMemory @augustlan Don’t forget he has logic on his side :/ Maybe you want to explain it better? Why are there women who see others not flowing male rule but do not think it is so great they should follow suit? It isn’t like the Traveler women can’t go find a bobby and get free if they are captive, they are not under escort at all times or lock and key. Who is to say they got it wrong and not us Yankees?

@FutureMemory you’re assuming that you can tell they are living under oppressive conditions just by looking at them. Can’t you see that is quite offensive, not to mention prejudice?

Seeing women beaten in public is one way I can “tell” they’re living under oppressive conditions.

@FutureMemory that happens is all cultures, unfortunately. That has more to do with men´s brutality, in all cultures, and the mentality of a battered woman.

@Hypocrisy_Central Why are there women who see others not flowing male rule

Flowing? Did you mean to say following? I can’t understand your posts anymore, man. I don’t think I’ll even try to read them until someone else tells me you’ve started proofreading.

@FutureMemory I can’t understand your posts anymore, man. I don’t think I’ll even try to read them until someone else tells me you’ve started proofreading. That is OK, even if every syllable was maticulous you could not debunk it. Using spelling or grammar is a good way to bow out without having to fail trying to debunk it. ;-P

hubris, anyone?

Bullshit relativism is about as useless as bullshit social programming. One thing I always hated about mainstream anthropology.

@Hypocrisy_Central That is OK, even if every syllable was maticulous you could not debunk it. Using spelling or grammar is a good way to bow out without having to fail trying to debunk it. ;-P

Haha, what???

@cazzie Where did I say I could tell a woman is oppressed just by looking at her? I would never presume to know a person’s quality of life based on something so shallow, and would need a lot more evidence to make any kind of assumption at all. Where are you getting the idea that I would? Are you perhaps thinking of women in burkas? Again, I am not referring to burkas.

Nor would I ever presume to ask such a patronizing question as “How can you live in such an oppressed society?” That would be insulting, indeed. What I said was that if they are living with oppression, subjugation, and violence (based on a preponderance of evidence is what I mean here), people will notice and we will care. I wouldn’t just say “Oh, they don’t seem to mind, so it’s quite alright with me.”
———————————————————————-
For the record: I do NOT think that wearing a burka is necessarily oppressive. It may be a sign that something oppressive is going on, but it’s entirely possible that it’s completely benign. Again, clothing alone would not be enough to make any kind of assumption about a woman’s overall living conditions.

@Hypocrisy_Central I give up trying to explain it to you.

I am sick unto DEATH of this type of bullshit! “Who’s to say” the muslims don’t have it right and the rest of us are wrong. It should be ok for me to marry a 4 year old girl and have sex with her as soon as she can hold my weight. It should be ok for me to beat any of my five wives anytime I want to. It should be ok for me to cut off a man’s hand for stealing from me. It should be ok for me to beat any woman I think is being “loose” or out of the house on her own.

Do you see where this is going? “Who’s to say?” The people are to say. God is to say. I am to say! I will never allow such things to go on anywhere I can affect them.

@CaptainHarley
I live in a Muslim country and none of the things you describe are tolerated over here. They’re illegal and far from normal. You’re creating a travesty of reality and trying to use that as an argument. Very poor argumentation, I feel. Very poor show.

@CaptainHarley You gonna fix this, too?

Earlier today, a jury convicted polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs of child sexual assault. Mr. Jeffs is the leader of the Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ and can boast of at least 10,000 members. He is accused of taking two of his young followers as brides. Prosecutors provided evidence showing Jeffs had 78 wives in addition to his legal wife and 24 of them were under 17 years of age.

Hey, look, non-Islamists.

Huh, all Christians. How about that?

And just for the record, I’m not anti-Christian. I’m anti-organized religion of any type. I think a tremendous amount of evil has been and continues to be perpetrated in the name of religion. My point to you is that your hate is hypocritical. In one of your other anti-Islam rants, you commented that you didn’t want your daughter(s) to have to wear a burka one day. Why not focus on something a million times more likely, like your daughter being paid less than a man for the same exact work, your daughter being raped by a sexual predator (nearly one-fifth of women), Your daughter being the victim of a violent crime, a drunk driver, or any of the myriad other real risks that she encounters every day?

@Hypocrisy_Central, I addressed the Amish and you still haven’t addressed me.

@shrubbery You talked about the Amish again, and I will again say that it may appear that they have a choice in that they can see the outside world and do nothing but it really isnt a choice when they are conditioned to believe their way is better and even if they wanted to leave they probably couldn’t. What, there is razor wire and a guard outpost at the entrance of Amish territory making sure none escape? Just because leaving somewhere would entail some hardship and difficulty doesn’t mean there is no choice to leave. In some ways, we all make choices based on conditions or laws. We have the choice to follow them or do them or face consequences that are not favorable. To say, ”No they can’t leave even if they don’t want to, because they would have hardship” is hardly supported by history. In WWII those Jews that could escape the Nazi did so, even if it meant leaving everything they owned behind. In the US, slaves left everything they had and sought the underground railroad to Canada, in the Bosnian War many left for safety with just what was on their backs. Having nowhere to go or money has not been a lynch pin on if people who were fed up of their condition wouldn’t leave it.

I’m not saying that there wouldn’t be any women who do have a real choice, I’m sure there are and they are free to be happy under a patriarchy if they wish. However, they would he the exception, not the rule, and that is why those who know better (I understand how that is a shakey statement but see my other response) feel like they should do something. They are the exception how? How many nations on this planet implement some sort of patriarchy? I am not a Stat Nazi and will disqualify your answer because it might be all hat and no cattle, with no numbers to back it up. It could be plausible, in a small way, or it could be plausible that near 50% of the women on this planet are cool with living with some level of patriarchy. You say those who know better, from a US standpoint, or what? I am sure there are people in the Middle East who feel they might know better, and want to stick all the women here under a burka believing if they did, out off the hook teen pregnancies and rapes would go way down, or disappear completely. There is no way to know if they would be right or wrong because we Yanks would never try it. For anyone to say we know better than you with no hard proof of benefit that it is better is like a drum with no skin.

If someone from outside the US was trying to say the reason things are such a mess over here is because the US is a nation of losers that can’t do anything without being drunk or high, would you throw your hands up and say “Thanks heavens these people came along to show us that having so many liquor stores and booze serving establishment is a scourge on the nation, lets burn them all down!”? I don’t think so. And if you and the rest of the US fail to give it up, they can say we Yanks were conditioned to be dope heads and lushes, we don’t know any better.

@syz Please do not direct that at all Christians. He was a LDS and have nothing to do with my faith. To me he has never been a factor. What he worshiped and how was as far from me as the planet formally known as Pluto was from Mercury. Warren Jeffs is a whole different issue, just saying…...

@syz

Your response makes me wonder what your hidden agenda is.

@whitenoise

These things exist. That is a fact. Whether they exist in any particular country I have no idea. Perhaps you live in Turkey, which has in the past been very civilized, although that is changing, so I’m told.

My hidden agenda? Are you serious? It’s not hidden, and I don’t know how I can make my opinion any clearer. You just don’t like what I have to say.

My agenda is to point out to you that your condemnation of 1.5 billion people based on the fact that they are Islamic makes no more sense than me asserting that every Christian is a pedophile or a polygamist. There are extremists and criminals and assholes in every culture. But you refuse to see that. You’d rather cling to your hate.

@Hypocrisy_Central, I “know better” by looking at society. As a woman. I am grateful for the opportunities I have in this society in this day and age, achieved by the feminist movement. We are still fighting, and we are getting more and more opportunities. I am observing that the women in more liberal societies where the feminist movements have been fighting seem to have a better quality of life. I am observing that there are many women who are recently fighting to get out of oppressive societies. These are my observations. You are right, I have no numbers of figures.

Anyway. Not everyone is a strong hero type of person. They may need help. Are you saying that if someone wanted to get out of an oppressive society you wouldn’t help them because they had to go through that hardship because other people had to go through hardships to get out of their situation? Shouldn’t we who are able to help do something so that they didn’t actually have to go through that hardship? That’s what your original question was. Why do other women feel like they have to step in? Because they care and they want to remove hardship from someone else’s life.

If someone from outside the US was trying to say the reason things are such a mess over here is because the US is a nation of losers that can’t do anything without being drunk or high, would you throw your hands up and say “Thanks heavens these people came along to show us that having so many liquor stores and booze serving establishment is a scourge on the nation, lets burn them all down!”? I don’t think so. And if you and the rest of the US fail to give it up, they can say we Yanks were conditioned to be dope heads and lushes, we don’t know any better.

Actually we have been conditioned to drink that much alcohol, it is one of the greatest government revenues (at least in Australia). So I do know better, I would agree that we drink too much. If all of Australia decided that alcohol was bad I would be very happy.

Hypocrisy_Central Calling FLDS (Fundamental Latter Day Saints AKA polygamist Mormons) Christian is about as close as calling YOU a Christian. It’s not even close. Your example is inappropriate and uninformed.

@CaptainHarley

I think the most valuable element in your reply was, when you said… “I have no idea”

And no… I do not live in Turkey, I live in the heart of the muslim world.

Uh .. the last time I looked, Turkey was muslim.

So are you Muslim? If not, how did you come to live “in the heart of the Muslim world?” I would presume that since Mecca is in Saudi Arabia, that is the country you are referring to?

Dear @CaptainHarley
If I wanted to share the exact information of where I live, I would have done so. And yes… you’re right. Turkey is a (secular) Muslim country.

My personal faith, religion, or lack thereof is irrelevant. I was reacting to your unfounded allegations of what a Muslim country is like.

You wrote: “it should be ok for me to marry a 4 year old girl and have sex with her as soon as she can hold my weight. It should be ok for me to beat any of my five wives anytime I want to. It should be ok for me to cut off a man’s hand for stealing from me. It should be ok for me to beat any woman I think is being “loose” or out of the house on her own.”.

With that statement you were clearly insinuating that this is typical for a Muslim society / country to condone such behavior. I live in the Middle East and I know of no Muslim country where your statement would apply to.

The situation you described before is horrible and everyone agrees that it is. It is also a fabrication. And to me it seems to be one, deliberately made up to instigate hatred amongst those that are not fortunate enough to have proper information on and experience with other cultures, such as those of Islam.

Your words are either born in ignorance or in malevolence.

Turkey is a secular country. Have you ever been there? Recently?

Let’s put it this way… one of three things is true:

1. I have incorrect information. This is highly unlikely since I get verifying information from multiple sources.

2. You have inadequate information. This is possible, but not probable, especially since you claim to live in a ( unnamed ).Muslim country.

3. You are being untruthful to serve your own agenda. I would rather not believe this, but it may very well be true.

Hey, that’s handy logic. Because @whitenoise is from a Muslim country, they can’t possibly have the information they require to make an intelligent assessment of a Muslim country or their own ethnic culture. But you, on the other hand, are sitting there, across the planet, with no discernible first hand education or experience of the countries or faith you seem so sure about because talking heads on TV and people like you also write articles and tell you it’s true. Perfect.

or.. because @whitenoise is from said region/Muslim country, they are pre-programmed to send out false information to trick the infidel into thinking that Muslims are nice people, just like them.

George Orwell is spinning in his grave.

@snowberry Hypocrisy_Central Calling FLDS (Fundamental Latter Day Saints AKA polygamist Mormons) Christian is about as close as calling YOU a Christian. Not being exactly sure what your intention and message was in that, I am not going to have a knee jerk reaction. I will say it like this: Warren Jeffs, and his people may call themselves Christian, but I would not recognize them as Christian by the criteria of my Bible. I know many would lump Jeffs’ group in under Christian to discredit all Christians by his actions and behavior. They will use him to say ”see hoe bad Christians really are?” Myself, would I call Warren Jeffs and his type of teaching Christian, no.

Who is a Christian and who is a Muslim when they cross the legal/moral line?

http://blackhistory.com/cgi-bin/blog.cgi?blog_id=214503&cid=10

@Macaria

You need to learn how to think. Nothing in that diatribe has anything to do with what I said.

@shrubbery @Hypocrisy_Central, I “know better” by looking at society. The society I live in may not be best for everyone in spite the fact I believe it to be, so there is a chance that your society isn’t either.

I am observing that the women in more liberal societies where the feminist movements have been fighting seem to have a better quality of life. Again, that is off your determination. One’s quality of life and be incumbent on many different situations. Someone living on an island in the middle of the pacific can believe they have a great quality of live even though they don’t have a Walmart to shop in, wide freeways, shiny SUVs and other vehicles, cable, amusement parks, cell phones, etc. Some women might not see the feminist agenda to their liking or benefit. Trying to tell someone they need to rise above where they are because you know they are not doing as good as they should. You would not go to a Pacific Islander and say get off that island because you are missing so much not being here where there are cell phones, Internet, Starbucks, McDonalds all around, and A/C vehicles.

Not everyone is a strong hero type of person. They may need help. Are you saying that if someone wanted to get out of an oppressive society you wouldn’t help them because they had to go through that hardship because other people had to go through hardships to get out of their situation? Not every woman that chooses to live under a patriarchy is some shrinking violet with no voice. If they chose to be under male rule but they do not feel oppressed, why should I or who gives me the authority to tell them they are? Do they get to have the authority to tell me that I am lacking in some area and should do it their way? If a woman has the choice to choose patriarchy or women liberation and chooses patriarchy I should not respect her wishes, when it was her choice which to choose from?

Actually we have been conditioned to drink that much alcohol, it is one of the greatest government revenues (at least in Australia). So I do know better, I would agree that we drink too much. It maybe here in the US as well, it is certainly a big money maker for the breweries. If a group of people, be they religious or not, tried to step in and take the booze away from people because they felt it was wrong and had to save all the ignorant booze drinkers from themselves, how many of them do you think will just go along with it and hand up their mug for good? They will believe those telling them to quit their booze are the ones with the problem.

@Macaria
Actually… I live in a Muslim country, but I am from The Netherlands and I am not a Muslim. I would also not say that all is rosy and perfect where I live. Far from that, but I don’t like people throwing have baked nonsense around as if it is a fact. For that reason I picked on @CaptainHarley‘s words.
Welcome to Fluther!

@CaptainHarley,
Every now and then you and I run into such an argument. I recall you once refusing to make a difference between social democrats, socialists and liberals. I feel you use a wide brush to paint your visions and often loose nuances in that process. That is a pity, since quite often I agree at least partly with what you stand for. Liberty and protection of personal freedoms and rights, for instance. You, however, loose me, when you claim that people different from you are evil and opposing your ideals of freedom.

@Hypocrisy_Central you are assuming that every single person in that society is happy with the way it is. So I have no idea how many people are wanting to stay there or wanting to leave- but even if there is one singe person who wants to leave but can’t they should be helped. If they have been conditioned we should come and show them the choice since maybe they never had it in the first place- and even if there is one person who chooses the outside world we should help. If the other people get offended and want to stay then that’s their right.

And you’re right, I wouldn’t tell a Pacific Islander to get off their island because I don’t believe that ”cell phones, Internet, Starbucks, McDonalds all around, and A/C vehicles.” necessarily make a good society, however, if their island is going to get flooded or taken over by a casino then maybe I would step in to try and help them integrate into a modern society because where else would they go?

Everything depends on the circumstances at the time. You are generalising by saying that every woman in a patriarchy wants to be there, maybe I generalised and said that most don’t, but there are definitely going to be some at least who want to get out, and what feminists fight for is a choice.

You assumed that every single woman has a choice. Maybe she doesn’t. That is what feminists have always fought for- not to take over or force a woman to be like them- for women to have the choice.

I have no intention of prefacing every remark I make about a group of people with a statement to the effect that “now I know there are a lot of people in this group who don’t believe this way, but…” ARE there people who are Muslims who don’t advocate taking over the world? Of course there are. Some of them are my friends. But those who raise the most hell, get the most publicity, or are the most extreme generally taint the entire group.

@CaptainHarley Yep, that goes for every crowd. Well said.

@shrubbery Everything depends on the circumstances at the time. You are generalising by saying that every woman in a patriarchy wants to be there, maybe I generalised and said that most don’t, but there are definitely going to be some at least who want to get out, and what feminists fight for is a choice. I think it all came down to one word, and that word being every. I do not recall saying every woman living under a patriarchy wanted to be there, in fact I tried to say those in the Middle east more than most would not like it but acquiesce to it because it is better than resisting. Yes, not all women who live in nations or communities in the Middle East are jiggy with the make up, but not all hate it either. All I have been trying to say is many women have the option, if the word choice is too strong, to not live that way but they choose to. Not all women mind being under a patriarchy. They all do not hate it, they all do not love it. Those who love it, why should anyone try to stop them.

@Hypocrisy_Central, okay, fine, but what we’ve all been saying is that how do we know they have a choice if they’ve been conditioned? And if we discover that they do then we should help and fight for those who choose to leave.

@CaptainHarley That brings up a couple of interesting points.

A) If you know that not all Muslims are scary, evil terrorists, why don’t you care enough to qualify all of your anti-Muslim rhetoric with words like ”some Muslims”. It would certainly be less inflammatory, and might go a long way in fostering better relations.

B) If you have no intention of qualifying your remarks (because you don’t seem to think it’s a big deal), why do you then feel insulted or attacked if others speak about Christianity in the same way? Pot, meet kettle.

C) Do these Muslim ‘friends’ of yours have a MODICUM of self-respect? I’m wondering, because you seem to think that if they did, they wouldn’t be Muslim.

D) Do they know that you consider their religion thusly: the insanity called Islam!? If so, how do they feel about that?

@CaptainHarley Sorry bro, SNAP, but @augustlan does raise a good argument. I had to lurve that, good debate points are good debate points.

@augustlan

[ Rolls eyes ] Unlike many people these days, I don’t feel compelled to fret about whether I’m hurting someone’s feelings or not. I operate on the assumption that the people I talk to ( or about ) are adults capable of dealing with their own feelings. Unfortunately, this is becoming less and less the case.

A. I’ll work on that, but I’m not making any promises.
B. Good question. I’ll think about that one.
C. The friends I have who are also Muslim don’t stress things like burkas, beatings, and bullshit.
D. I have had many discussions with some of them about this and we agree that a person’s religion is their own business and no one else’s… until they try to force it on others. That is when they step outslde religion into cultural and societal compulsion.

We are in a struggle… again… for the survival of our concept of civilization, and I refuse to feel badly about defending it.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/countries-worst-religious-freedom-grades

@shrubbery Regarding the people I was talking about where the women wear the face veil and are covered in black: They are from the middle east. My comments were appropriate, and did address the issue. Sorry I did not make that clear before. Even though they cannot kill the women here in the USA, it’s a simple matter to get them back to the mother country and do the job there. This is because some man in their family rules their lives from cradle to grave (father, son, brother, uncle, etc.). It matters not where they are.

@snowberry gotta love the run-on sentence…....

@Macaria LOL, sorry. I try to catch ‘em, but sometimes they run away before I can grab ‘em.

@shrubbery ”…okay, fine, but what we’ve all been saying is that how do we know they have a choice if they’ve been conditioned?* The same way anyone from another nation do not know we have a choice and not have been conditioned or groomed to believe what we believe. Some of what we in the US believe off face value is not completely flattering. High level of homicides, abortions, amount of people incarcerated, teen pregnancies, etc. They could attribute that to our choices and lifestyle. We might see it a s just a byproduct of freedom of will. They can see it as we are groomed to believe it is something that will just happen or be expected with freedom, but it is really wrong. Because they believe it wrong for us, is it? If you can’t say yes it is, then how can we, or anyone else say what is wrong for them?

I joined this conversation VERY late, so if someone has already said this, please forgive me! ( I looked and didn’t see any mention of it.) In Amish society, don’t ALL of the kids, male and female, have a chance to go outside of their communities for a few years to “try out” life on the outside and see which they would prefer? Many choose to remain. Some don’t, but many do.