NSFW If an underage girl seduces man, is it still the man's fault?

Yes, under the law (at least here) it is up to the man to find out her age.

Any decent man would let the girl know what she is doing is inappropriate and simply walk away if she persists.

Let’s forget about the law and answer it ssentimental wise. What would men do, generally. I see a lot of men staring at and smiling at underage girls, human don’t always go by the law, do they

“What would men do”

The vast majority would probably pork the girl, but it would still be wrong. I’m 28, and am confident and wise enough to be able to easily manipulate someone who is only 15. Even if she iniciates it, and she does all the work, the man would still know enough that he would be taking advantage of her on at least some level.

The men I know would not do anything with a 15 year old child.

Never touch a child, no matter what she does. If I suspected a girl of being too young, I would ask to see her I.D.

@QueenOfNowhere “Let’s forget about the law and answer it ssentimental wise.” Uh, no. Let’s not. There are very good reasons those laws are in place. In this society, in this day and age, “forgetting” the law is unacceptable, and there is nothing “ssentimental” about it.

Regardless if the child wants to forget the laws and thinks this is “ssenimental” (what does that mean, really?) if an adult was to find out and press charges against the man, his life is over. A man that suspected the girl was an under age child will run as far away as possible. A child that would try to seduce a man for shits and giggles has mental issues going on.

ID is a must.

Gee Willikers, I must just be sooo old-fashioned here that I think the guy should maybe know who’s handling his stuff well enough to know how old she is. Like maybe he’s already aware of her age without needing to see her ID. Like maybe he’d be a bit grossed out by strangers grabbing him in an intimate fashion. Or maybe I’m just a decent person, and not old fashioned at all. Hmmm.

@JilltheTooth Decency is so old fashioned, Jill.

It depends on the state. Pennsylvania has a specific section in the age of consent laws that talks about “mistakes as to age”. It says:

“Except as otherwise provided, whenever in this chapter the criminality of conduct depends on a child being below the age of 14 years, it is no defense that the defendant did not know the age of the child or reasonably believed the child to be the age of 14 years or older. When criminality depends on the child’s being below a critical age older than 14 years, it is a defense for the defendant to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that he or she reasonably believed the child to be above the critical age.” (emphasis mine source)

So, in your example of a 15-year-old that looked “grown up”, it could possibly be a defense for the 32-year-old if he could prove that he reasonably believed she was of age due to how she looked and presented herself.

That being said, once I turned 18, I made sure I wasn’t dating anyone too young, let alone having sex with anyone too young. I will make sure my boys understand just how important it is to do that as well as they get older. Regardless of what the law says about knowing the person’s age, I think that’s an important piece of information that one should know so they know just what they are getting into.

@FutureMemory : I know, right? ;-)

Jill, tell that to all the middle age men in the world, then. Not everyone in this filthy world would reject having sex with a drop dead gorgeous underage girl who is hitting on him. Obviously we all know the right thing to do is say no, but desires are guilty and I’m not asking what must be done, I’m asking what would be done in this day and age, in general

You know, I feel kind of skeeved out by people seducing those way younger than them. If the girl was eighteen, I’d still have a problem. I know there are a lot of “age is just a number” proponents on fluther, but I remember my eighteenth birthday. I remember being amazed at how different I felt and the enormous power I thought I had because I was a legal adult. Is there really any difference between a seventeen-year-old and an eighteen-year-old? Objectively, no, but in our society, since there is a such a huge shift in legality, responsibility and perception, there is a big difference between a minor child and an adult who’s only a few days older than a minor child.

I am a firm believer in “it takes two to tango” as far as seduction goes. Sure, maybe she was laying it on real thick, but unless she has Jedi mind control powers, he has every opportunity to stop things from getting too far and just walking away.

Also, I’m twenty-two and I was recently hit on by a thirty-three-year-old. He knew how old I was. It was majorly skeevy.

I’m typing on my phone. Sorry for the little mistakes if you are an english teacher!

@QueenOfNowhere : Go back and read how you worded the Q. Then go back and read how you worded your first post. Nowhere do you indicate that you have a problem either with the underage girl or the man. You also must be very young if you refer to a 32 year old man as “middle-aged”. Are you underage, yourself?

Yeah I know how I asked the q, but you quoted a part where is not a part of the question. That was another question in the question so I thought you were answering that since you quoted from it. I’m not underage, are you?

On a side note, I was that 14-year-old girl once. Not quite to the extent of trying to seduce the older guy to actually have sex, but there was this older guy (24-years-old at the time) that I had a huge crush on. I was a bridesmaid in my cousins wedding and he was the groomsmen that I was paired with. I flirted with him like crazy and he remained a perfect gentleman the whole time. He never took advantage of the situation. I was crushed at the time, but we’ve remained friends over the years (since he is a close friend of the family) and now we look back and laugh about it.

So, not all guys would take advantage of the situation.

Yes it is. The older man should know better!

When I was younger, I used to go to clubs with a fake I’d and many guys even over 45 would talk to me and compliment me even after I tell them my real age. And when I was 16, a guy with kids talked to me like I’m his girlfriend and stared at my breasts. I’ve never met a guy who is much older than me and who acted like he is not interested in that way, unfortunately.

How far would you go with an underage girl that doesn’t look underage?

I don’t understand why people insist on considering the law, when @QueenOfNowhere asked aside from the law. It seems she is trying to get inside of the mind of a man, what is wrong with that? I think @poisonedantidote gave a good answer. He still knows, even without the law, that he is taking advantage of her if something does happen. The young girl really does not know what she is doing, the consequences of what she is doing, nor can she well predict how she will feel in the future about it.

@JLeslie What world are you living in? The 15 year old girl absolutely knows what she is doing in seducing a man. I have yet to meet a girl over 13 that didn’t understand how to use their sexuality to get what they want.

Just because you have kids or are old or married doesn’t mean you become immune to the charms of a beautiful young woman. Now, one would hope that as soon as the guy found out the girl had the thinking capacity typical of someone her age, he would lose interest. But sometimes girls that age are pretty smart and sometimes guys get blinded by beauty and horniness.

Is it the man’s fault. Well, this gets back to the consent issue that was raised in one of your recent, lamented questions. Does an underage woman have the power of making informed consent? Well, according to the law, if it’s a very smooth 15 year old guy, then she does have the power to consent. But if it’s your ordinary dweeby 45 year old, she doesn’t have the power to know her own mind and the consequences of her actions.

Actually, I don’t think it matters whether the woman coming onto a guy is 14 or 40. The man will respond pretty much the same. If he’s into free sex with no attachments, he’ll probably do something. If he wants more of a connection, he’ll keep her away from him. I don’t think this depends on knowledge of the law. It’s more about how the guy relates to women, and whether he treats them more as people or more as things.

He should have left long before he got hard. She is trouble.

Chyna, an 15 year old girl might think she knows what she is doing, but most likely she doesn’t. If the guy responds, its more likely she will regret the whole situation.

@QueenOfNowhere You said, “I see a lot of men staring at and smiling at underage girls, human don’t always go by the law, do they”

Staring and smiling at someone is not against the law. As long as the man doesn’t take it further than that, he is still obeying the law. There is a line that a man (or woman) makes a decision to cross when being with someone that is underage. You can’t really generalize it and say all men would do it, just because the young girl is trying to seduce him. It’s his responsibility to stop the situation from progressing further or deal with the consequences if he does not.

@chyna: I have to agree with @QueenOfNowhere on this. A young girl may know how to use her sexuality, but she probably doesn’t understand all of the consequences. It’s kind of like a child and candy. A young child knows that eating candy is delicious but they don’t know that if they eat too much, they will get sick. I certainly knew what sex and seduction an all that good stuff was when I was fifteen and I knew that if I used my sexuality right, I could have sex with anyone I wanted. However, I was scared shitless to do anything with it because I knew, on some level, that there would be consequences that I didn’t know about. I learned about those consequences when I was older and could handle better what I got myself into. I could not have handled what I got myself into at fifteen.

@chyna She knows how to flirt and seduce, but I stressed the consequences, the psychological consequences, of the action. I lost my virginity when I was 15, I am not naive to how sexed up a 15 year old can be. Eventually the girl, might be years later, will most likely realize the man took advantage of her. She will likely have some regret.

@QueenOfNowhere You keep changing what you want your question to be. Your original post asks if a man is seduced by a 15 year old, is it the mans’ fault. Now you are talking about how she will feel if she does this. I don’t know what you want answered, so I’m out of this question.
@Jleslie I understand that, but that was not her question originally. I don’t know what her question is now, so as I said, I’m out.

Seaofclouds, I couldn’t agree more. But if an older guy masturbates to the girl, and moves his mouth like a pervert looking at her,no idea how to explain it etc. Its still not against the law…so is it okay for a guy to do all that as long as he doesn’t have sex?

@chyna Huh? @QueenOfNowhere is responding to your comment you wrote to me.

Chyna I’m responding to your comment.. Is it clearer now that I’m saying it?

@QueenOfNowhere Fantasies are just that. Trying to control and limit what people can fantasize about is going a bit too far and a totally different subject than what your question started out as. Yes, the man can fantasize about what ever he wants when he’s in his own home without breaking the law (assuming he’s using just his mind and not looking at child porn since that’s a different subject). There is a difference between looking (in person and visualizing things in one’s own mind) and touching.

Edited to add: I didn’t even think about the public masturbation.. that would be illegal, no matter what he was thinking about while he did it.

@QueenOfNowhere Public masturbation is not legal. It’s lewd and lascivious behavior or indecent exposure or something like that. Turns you into a sex criminal if you’re convicted.

Yes, oh & he’s not a man….more of a dirty sick tw@!!

A 32 year old doesn’t know what he’s doing. That’s crap.

Children DO NOT direct the affairs of Men.

I compare this question to accidental harm caused by a man that didn’t intend it to happen.

If I accidentally drop a knife and it cuts your toe, then it’s my fault.

If I accidentally shoot a gun and it kills your dog, then it’s my fault.

Men are different from boys. Men understand that certain things need to be handled with extreme caution, otherwise someone might get hurt.

Nothing deserves to be handled with caution more than our children.

I’m starting to think that the OP just keeps describing scenario after scenario as some sort of self-gratification exercise, not the first time for this user. Since I’m not getting anything out of this user’s masturbatory fantasies, I’m out, too.

@JilltheTooth She is young.

Don’t take offense to that @QueenOfNowhere. We were all young once, trying to figure out things like this. I do recommend not trying to fight back with dismissive or mean come backs to comments you don’t like.

@QueenOfNowhere Easy lady.

I’ve seen this fantasy play out before. When a young teenage girl gets a taste of the power that feminine sensuality can wield over a man, they feel empowered beyond any previous childhood experience. For the first time in her life she feels in control, and she will use any means possible to prove to the world that “I’m a big girl now”.

How childish.

Topic is obviously not masturbation fantasies. I don’t understand who is being childish… I asked a question to poison, you didn’t need to answer it like that is the question of the topic. Well I got my answer thanks to poison, jleslie, cruiser, drbill, realeyes.., adiron, wunday, seaofclouds,.. Thanks

Anyone who’s met @JilltheTooth in person couldn’t possibly accuse her of being boring. That’s rather like calling Michael Jordan short.

Childishness is revealed in the under age girl that attempts to seduce an older man. She is the sad result of a pop culture that places a Cosmo Mag Cover at every checkout isle in Walgreens. She thinks she’s on her way to becoming “a big girl now” when in actuality she’s just fallen prey to the lies told by media.

She thinks she’s in control. But she’s just another victim. Chances are she’ll be a victim for the rest of her life. Chances are she’ll look back on her life one day and wonder why real love never crossed her path. Chances are she’ll look back and wonder why men only use her for one thing.

@marinelife . . . He should have left long before he got hard. She is trouble.

what a great! line. it sounds like it belongs in a very dark country/western ballad.

Haha seriously @Blondesjon

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies It is not necessarily control, but I don’t disagree it can be part or all of it depending on the girl. It is feeling good about herself, feeling pretty, amd sexy, and sexually charged. All of a sudden they are getting a lot of attention, it feels good. True it feels powerful, but it also feels good in other ways.

The older guy willing to continue the flirting or more, is a pro at making her feel good, way more savvy than the 15 year old boys at school.

The point of moving from childhood into adulthood is to show some degree of control over one’s feelings.

Yes, it’s still his fault. Morally, it’s debatable.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies . . . typical. where are the bene gesserit when you need them?

And why haven’t the parents of both of these individuals been brought in to question? The man should have been raised to lead with something other than his dick and the girl obviously never got the lessons and attention she required at home.

The whole situation began years before she started rubbing up on his shank.

So… time to be the bad guy.

There is no such thing as a 15 year old child. A child does not have big firm breasts and a nice juicy ass, and many 15 year old girls do. They are teenagers, not children.

Calling a 15 year old a child is an attempt to demonise the hypothetical 30 year old man in the question by making him seem more like a pedofile than he actually is. The word “bait” implies temptation, it is called jailbait for a reason.

There is no need to try an demonize someone who is already acting inapropriately, it will just lead to extremist/fanatical ideas regarding sex with the under age, and will result in irrational and counter productive discussion.

So yea…

EDIT: boobies.

Childishness is not a state of physical body. Childishness is a state of mind.

I got no problem with the bene gesserit @Blondesjon. I often think that society is missing a grand opportunity to teach sensuality as an art form, rather than let children muddle through it amidst an ocean of pop culture lies and temptation.

Men would do well to experience the same degree of learning about their potential sensuality.

Too many moral authorities out there to make any sense of it. Sensuality should be taught in the arts. I know plenty of women who later in life took up exotic dancing, even pole dancing, or discovered the Kama Sutra, and enlightened themselves to the art of sensuality, rather than just the machine of sex being mistaken for it.

@QueenOfNowhere: That was nasty and unnecessary thing to say.

we’re obviously dealing with an attention starved teen here @KatawaGrey. wasn’t it obvious from the beginning?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies: Yeah, but I ain’t too keen on people insulting my momma.

i don’t like your momma being insulted either

Lol! Oh. Em. Gee.

At least her momma loves her @QueenOfNowhere. Your momma loves me.

@QueenOfNowhere Who’s the smartass here?

Sorry to hear that. Wish she was here for you. Perhaps your attitude would be different.

Wow.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies: Thanks for the support.

This Question states that Queenofnowhere’s mom is still alive. Nice to try for sympathy.

@QueenOfNowhere Could you please point me to a previous post where you spoke of your mother dying of cancer? It would save me from having to rifle through all of your comments. I don’t doubt what you’re saying. But teens who recently lost their mother usually have a lot to say about it and look to fluther for advice on how to deal with such a tragedy.

It’s common now to say your mother is dead as a response to a “Your mother” joke. It makes the person go “Ooops, sorry, I didn’t know”.

@Blackberry: My mom did almost die. From cancer. When I was ten.

you do all know that you’re playing “her” game right now, right? you have to do like i do and assume that this individual is just some dude getting his jollies off by posing as a young girl and asking poorly worded, sexually charged questions. as soon as he’s done here he’ll scuttle off to 4chan and yuck it up with his buddies as he showers them with stories of how “clever” he is.

@QueenOfNowhere . . . We’re on to you dude. Peddle those papers somewhere else.

i like games

@KatawaGrey I was just saying that Queen said her mother died to trick realeyes.

“A 15 year old gorgeous, grown-up looking girl…”

hahahahahahahaha

What? Grown up looking from the perspective of perverts and other teens?

hahahahahahaha….....

The man is to blame but first of all let’s get some things straight. Those parents who raised that girl are responsible for her until she’s 18. So if she does a stupid thing she has to know that not only the parents are responsible but her too.

Though I agree that parents hold the lions share of responsibility, I also believe that it takes a village to raise a child. Culture is the creation of the adults who live in it. It’s a messy business for parents and adults to create a culture which encourages teens to experience sexuality before their time, and yet attempt to hold a higher moral standard to teens at home.

I do not envy the pressures put upon teens today, and the contradictions we as parents and adults confuse them with.

I wonder…. is it very adult of adults to beat up on a teenager with a smart mouth? Should adults run all over teens just because they know how to do it? Or should they show restraint in the face of immaturity?

It’s easy to yell out “troll,” as people seem to do with @QueenOfNowhere over and over. I think these questions make people uncomfortable, but they are legitimate and interesting questions no matter who has asked them. I think it’s very immature to keep beating up the OP just because she is defending herself the only way she knows how. I think the mature thing to do would be to show restraint. Instead, so many people are reducing themselves to name calling. It’s ridiculous! I see these threads and I have to check the address line to make sure I“m on fluther.

@wundayatta . . . you of all people should know that sometimes user accounts are not what they seem.

restraint in the face of foolishness is the epitome of foolishness

@Blondesjon I don’t think you’ve been paying attention. If @QueenOfNowhere is not who she says she is, then she’s one of the greatest flim-flam artists in the world. But who cares? She asks interesting questions. That’s all that matters to me. I don’t know why people get all upset when she tries to clarify things. I don’t see the trolling that others seems to see. I really don’t understand where people are coming from on this. Looks like a witch hunt to me. But then, this has happened before here, and the hunts have ended up in hangings or burnings. I find it very intolerant and very sad. People have such thin skins if they can be hurt by trivialities such as issues like this. I really wish that people who don’t like the OP or don’t like the question would just mind their own business and go hang out on some question about battery size or something. This is beneath fluther, it seems to me.

please refer to my previous post. i understand just fine. :)

@wundayatta: Someone insults my momma, I don’t care how old they are. That ain’t cool.

@KatawaGrey Your momma was pretty insulting herself. You expect a teenager not to reply in kind? I am actually somewhat surprised; maybe even shocked at your mother’s behavior. It seems very unlike her. And while I understand your instinct to protect her—sometimes, as I’m sure you know, she might be wrong.

@KatawaGrey . . . i wonder if @wundayatta would be this interested/protective if the op presented themselves as the king ofnowhere?

That is what the man should do, yes. Unfortunately, sometimes urges get the best of people. And my answer would be no different if the genders were switched.

“Your (Wife is) just to boring to deal with” @wundayatta. “thanks to god I won’t be aware of (her) silly fact” how dare you defend “your smart ass (Wife)”.

Will you offer a response, or “just mind (Your) own business and go hang out on some (other) question”?

I have nothing to add that some of the answers haven’t already said. Just popped in to say this question took an ugly ass turn.

Edit: Also I see some of the activities that we all discussed just a day ago on the “Does fluther ever disappoint you?” thread.

@sarahhhhh . . . lol don’t worry. i think that most of the ugliness will be tidied up before too long.

Seriously, this post made me wonder just how loud I could scream, My fault! My fault! Yesss! My Fault!, while a hypothetical seductive female teen is performing fellatio on me?

@Blondesjon I don’t get why people get so emotional on here and start attacking each other. It’s Fluther. Not the bloody House of Commons.

Maybe Fluther should have a rising bar indicator under each avatar showing the increase and decrease in blood pressure levels of each jelly! ( and be able to differentiate between either anger or sexual arousal as the cause ) Is there an app for that? : )

@sarahhhhh . . . It is what it is because of what Fluther and the House Of Commons share.

They’re populated by individuals.

besides, everybody has a hot button issue. if fact i think there is a question about that on here somewhere.

Not everyone is getting upset. Some of us are having a lot of fun with this.

word

A little poke and jab never hurt anyone. What hurts is discovering that you can’t take what you dish out.

I wish I could find out if @QueenOfNowhere is really who she says she is and that’s truly her avatar. Hate to think all these commotion for a 50 year old big beer-bellied guy with crusty mustard hard mustache and bald.

@mazingerz88 . . . no. that’s me 10 years from now.

Let’s get something straight @mazingerz88… I might not be the only “50 year old big beer-bellied guy with crusty mustard hard mustache and bald” guy on here that you need to worry about.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies: I lied to you. I’m not a ten foot tall blue girl. I’m actually 5’3 and the color of pale beach sand.

<<<<<<<<<<<crushed

@KatawaGrey Aha, well, does that mean you will be banished from your Na’vi tribe now?

Wow.

Hey you up there… WATCH YOUR MOUTH!!!

I’m intrigued. How can I not be? (eating popcorn).

It’s too bad that so many GOOD comments and thoughts might disappear with this post, but then again, only this kind of post that will bring out these kinds of comments. Paradox, no?

Lol @realeyes!

Zip up the trouser snake, tell her she is sweet, but he doesn’t want to go to jail, and run the other way. That is a perfect plan of action.

Not only these kinds of posts @linguaphile. When I first joined fluther, the atheist/theist debates were loaded with the best insults ever. Old @dpworkin was king of insults until @cazzie met him head on with ”@dpworkin well double….reductio ad absurdum on you too…. WTF.” Ahhh the good old days.

And then there’s always the gay marriage debates… Lot’s of good times lost.

I think we’re all much better for it. And those fights have created the fluther we enjoy today.

Come on everybody let’s kiss and make out.

but if you’re under age then we’ll just make up

slowly approaches realeyes as sexy porno music plays in the background

uhn tiss uhn tiss uhn tiss

A real man would be very uncomfortable or creeped out if he knew he was being hit on by a girl so young. A skeeve would take advantage of the situation. In either case, if the man touches the girl, it’s his fault, since he is the adult.

And I must say that I’m rather disgusted to see yet another petulant teenager picking on @JilltheTooth simply because she dares to tell the honest truth. This is Fluther, not yahoobullshitwhinyteenangst. Take your sick fapping elsewhere.

<<<<<<<<not a skeeve… creepy, but not a skeeve

Wow, I flagged this hours ago. No mods around I guess.

good to know they obey your commands. they never seem to listen to me cept when i’m cheeky

For me the key word in the question is “man”. A man would do exactly as @Seaofclouds groomsman did, gently and respectfully rebuff the advances of this girl.

As for a 15 year-old being a grown up, @poisonedantidote those “firm breasts” and “juicy ass” are an evolutionary joke played on young girls and in my case at least, were my worst enemy. When I hit my mid-teens and men boys started to notice me for the first time, I drank in the attention because for the first time since my mom died @queenofnowhere, my mom really did die of cancer when I was a young girl someone was paying attention to me. I had no business dabbling in that shit at that age because even though I had the body of the grown up, I was no more an adult than my 15 year-old nephew is. The boy in a man’s body in the swimming pool had ho business putting his hands on me, and as a naive girl thirsting for attention, even though it felt skeevy, I had no capacity to say that out loud, or to even understand completely why it was so skeevy.

No matter what, in the original scenario as described by @Queenofnowhere, the man is at fault.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Are you talking to me? First, I flag something maybe 1 time a month, not counting when I see I screwed up my own question and want to fix it, that happens maybe twice a month. Second, I never feel like I am commanding anyone. WTF?

no no just talkin’ ta myself

How can I seduce older women, like mid 30s to late 40s? :P

start by pulling that tongue back in your mouth ;P

Lol.

Even if she has malicious intent and is thus in the wrong, the man is still responsible for his own actions. It doesn’t matter what she does, wrong or right, but his response is all he can be held accountable for.

[mod says] Let’s try to stick to answering the actual question, and let’s assume the question is genuine, please. And be civil. Thanks!

here comes mom I’m gettin’ outta here! grabs cookie… runs like hell

Yeah. Poor dudes.

Yes. Man still suppose to think with head on shoulders. Not little head with no arms.

I was that 15 year old. I had a boyfriend from age 13–19 (on and off) and he was 3 years older than I. We were having sex by the time he was 17, so I was a 15 year old having sex with an adult. Most of the guys I dated in high school were adults. I’m lucky they weren’t so discriminating. I had a wonderful time during those years.

Now that I’m older and realize how young 15 really is, I’m a bit more reluctant to say that a 15 year with an adult is no big deal. It really depends on the girl, the guy, the culture.

Adolescence is a fairly new construct. Women became adults when their bodies became mature.

I think there is still a lot of gray area when it comes to these issues.

I agree with you @tinyfaery. There was a tiny age gap between you two, but its way to easy for a full grown adult male to persuade a young girl and then make her feel guilty and childish if she doesn’t give in to the pressure.
I know there are very mature 15 year olds but since there is no way to gage that. Responsibility will have to fall on the adult who should be aware of the laws.
If a person steals because they are living in the streets and are hungry, they still have to face charges of theft. And you can even understand that you need food and money to survive.
An adult does not have to take a 15 year old up on their offer of sexual services. He is not to go die or get sick.
An adult male should always think, her butt may be juicy but how juicy will my butt be in jail or can I be turned on by hairy butts for a while.

It is strict criminal liability for the person who is not a minor or below the age of consent.

I have heard a child molester use that excuse regarding a 3 year old girl. She seduced him!! She flopped down on her back and spread her legs – a clear message.

A child below the age of 18 does not have a fully developed brain, so no matter what her body looks like, she is NOT capable of informed consent.

An 18 year old doesn’t have a fully developed brain either.

If a man does let himself be “seduced” he’s a weak and pathetic bastard who deserves to be shoved in prison law or no law. Humanity doesn’t need his genetic material in the gene pool.

Just to put this out there, people have honestly thought that I was an adult (not exclusively men and never romantically, or at least not to my face) since I was about thirteen or fourteen years old. I have even personally been asked if I wanted to see a wine list while out at a restaurant before, with someone who was actually older than me but looked younger, I might add.
My point is, I don’t think people are considering the fact that fifteen is not always fifteen.

A stroll through the woods is not always a stroll through the woods either. A wise man keeps a lookout for hidden bear traps. Foolish thoughtless boys become ensnared by them.

@Fly But, inside her head, even a very mature 15 is not 30. Not even 20.

@JLeslie I’m not condoning a fifteen-year-old hitting on a man nor am I condoning a man returning her advances. What I was getting at is the physical aspect. Sometimes girls are so physically mature that there is no doubt in the man’s head that she is a legal adult.

That’s not a man. That’s a lustful boy in a mans body. The age thing works both ways. But age is age, clocked by the calender, and enforced by law.

Missouri Law awards Second degree statutory rape to males 21yrs and older having sex with females less than 17yrs old. A class C felony. Display a weapon and he gets five years to life.

First degree statutory rape is against 14 year olds, and if it’s a 12 year old girl he gets 10 years to life imprisonment.

However, if the man is between 18 and 20 years old, the age of female consent is dropped to 14 years old.

How they came up with all that is beyond me. But the law is the law and the calender doesn’t lie.

@Fly I agree with that. I think your mommy and I both passed for older when we were in high school. I was going out to clubs from the age of 16. Actually, I think the majority of my high school class of girls could easily pass for 18 at the age of 15. I guess you are talking about 21. I don’t think I looked in my 20’s when I was 15?

My high school senior picture is my profile pic on FB right now, your mom can show you if you are home with her, or we can friend if you are curious. I was 16 when the photo was taken.

@Fly Also, I am not being critical of the 15 year old, not judging her in the OP’s example. I judge the man. I hope she learns sooner rather than later the real deal with some men, and I hope she is careful for her physical safety. I don’t see any big harm in some flirting, if that is all it is. Sometimes there is chemistry or sexual energy between two people, it just happens, but there are boundaries in my opinion that are there for a reason.

It’s not his fault if he gets aroused per se, but as a mature adult, he should know to not make a move, and reject any move made by the girl. For his own good, and hers. As far as I’m concerned. I have a hard time with justice, but this is a point on which I agree with it completely.

I would tell her to call me in three years.

As someone that lost her virginity at 12 years old, to someone who was legally an adult at the time, I want to say that I highly doubt a 15 year old girl really recognizes the potential consequences of her actions.
At 32 years old, a person has far more life experience, and should have the decency to walk away. Period.

nice job with the Q @QueenOfNowhere. 144 responses in one day. not bad

I’ve been avoiding mentioning this because of all the heat from yesterday. But I feel it must be mentioned. The OP wants to discuss “fault”. Well, that’s a real slippery slope you know. It encourages finger pointing rather than reasoned discussion about accountability and responsibility. Confusion is also increased with the doublespeak of the OP. This is understandable because it’s tempting to look at this subject only from a topical perspective. But the issue is much deeper than that. Youth doesn’t always have the experience to look beyond the surface.

I understand how the youthful perspective of the OP can seem to present a double standard. On one hand, the initial details revolve around “girl starts to seduce”...“She does a lot”... “She… wants to give a…”…And then puts all the responsibility on the Man. Well that’s just fine. Because a man should be able to handle responsibility. A man understands accountability. There are lots of things (eating too much ice cream) that a child wants, but the adults in their life must be responsible and accountable for making the right decisions about. So I have no problem with putting it on the man.

However, we’re dealing with a girl (not a woman) but a girl who has chosen to put herself in certain situations. “I used to go to clubs with a fake I’d and many guys even over 45 would talk to me…” Why would an underage teen be going to clubs where 45 year old men hang out? The LAW has already been broken. What does she expect from her little stroll on the wild side? Even if she still uses a fake I.D., are there no clubs that revolve around a younger crowd? What does she expect from these so called “Men” that hang out in young clubs with teenagers? What kind of Man is she basing her perspective upon?

If she feels adult, mature, and intelligent enough to circumvent the existing laws, then is it so out of line to hold her somewhat accountable to the decision that she made to associate with this type of crowd? I’m not saying that it justifies underage sex. But that type of 45 year old man is not typical of all men. She could use her smart little big girl brain to figure that out, rather than make global assumptions about all 45 year old men.

The girl who chooses not to put herself into a situation of breaking the law for the sake of good times will be much less likely to associate with that type of man. They’re called Swoopers. They swoop down on young unsuspecting prey, and with their wealth of experience, stand out against the younger boys with superficial compliments and daddy figure comforting. They feed her ego and reaffirm all the reasons that she broke the law and came there for in the first place. They give her exactly what she wanted and more than she ever expected. Her ego hungers for more like a crackhead wanting another hit.

Violence can happen at any time and any place. It should never be blamed on the victim. However, if I intentionally put myself in a bad neighborhood late at night, then I should expect a higher probability that my car will be jacked. We use our big boy and big girl brains to figure this shit out. Mature adults try their best to not increase the odds of violence against them. They look for well lit parking spaces in secured lots rather than leaving their car in a dark alley. They use their brains. And if they don’t, then experience has a way of teaching lessons that immature children refuse to learn on their own.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies: That was intelligently put. Thank you for posting that. I fully agree that there are times when a pattern is to be discerned from a young girl’s behavior. I still think a man should be a man and not a boy in a well-developed body, but I have seen this kind of thing in young girls before.

After I dated a guy for a few weeks, we broke up and a few months later, he was dating a 15-year-old. He was 21 at the time. Naturally, I was wary and a little disgusted. However, when they broke up and she was 16, she started dating a 28-year-old. This seemed like an interesting turn of events. I later found out than when she was 13, she was dating a 19-year-old. I’ve never met the 19-year-old, but as it happens, I’m actually friends with her current boyfriend the 28-year-old. There are a number of similarities between her current boyfriend and the ex of mine that she dated. Both are underdeveloped physically, despite being grown men. They are both very skinny and short and as far as I know, neither has a good relationship with his family. Both of them have a tendency to date younger girls anyway though usually inside the law, but still, there was usually an age difference and neither has dated a girl older than they are in recent years and both are fairly socially awkward. I have to wonder where the line can be drawn in these cases because I feel as if this girl knows what she’s doing. I’m not necessarily saying it’s morally wrong, but it’s interesting that this girl has found an easily manipulated type of man and continues to go after him.

It’s human nature to pursue past perceived successes. There is little difference in breaking the law to entire nightclubs that offer compliments of charlatans, and pursuing a particular archetype of male figure that fits the profile of satisfaction desired… both pursuits are intended to feed the fragile ego, rather than to strengthen it to a point of self sustaining wholeness. We all got our crack.

And I’m really sorry, and promise to leave this alone after this post, but I cannot avoid truth where truth is found. Perspective is everything. And this entire thread comes from the perspective of the OP who plainly states in her profile:

“I don’t live by rules… I’m an uncontrollable child!”

Not my words.

we would do well to keep things in perspective

Except that she has stated several times elsewhere that she is 18; technically not a child.

@Mariah But mentally….maybe lol.

@Mariah after talking about trying to pick up older men using a fake ID, why would an internet claim to be a legal adult be trustworthy?
I’m not saying that I know one way or the other, but it’s certainly possible that she may be a “child.” At the very least she seems to perceive herself as one, according to her profile.

Sure sure, just trying to give the benefit of the doubt that she’s telling the truth. Of course we don’t know if anyone on the internet really is who he says he is.

I would just like to point out that I am only a few years older than the OP claims to be.

I think we’ve been having a good discussion about the real issues here. I don’t think it is a good idea to bring in speculation about the motives or veracity of the OP. The issue is what matters and I think it’s a very important issue that gets at some very fuzzy areas of our social and legal mores.

What is the age of responsibility? What are the responsibilities that adults have towards youngsters who are technically children but act like they are older? Or try to be taken as adults? What if a child uses a fake ID to get into a club once, before they know what it is like, and then, after they find out, does it again? Does that mean they are responsible for themselves the second time and deserve whatever they get? Do they lose protection because they are like children, and make the same mistake twice, if, indeed, it is a mistake?

Children who want to grow up fast do it largely because they think that being an adult is more fun. You get to do more fun stuff like drink and drive and have sex when you are an adult. Most kids who think like this, don’t see the responsibility side of being an adult. They also don’t see the consequence side. Like getting hurt. Or getting pregnant. Or being abused emotionally.

So should they have to bear the consequences of their mistakes like an adult? And on the other side, should adults have to bear the consequences of their mistakes in getting inappropriate attention?

Many people say that if an underage girl seduces an older man, it is his fault. He had no business being anywhere near a girl that much younger. It doesn’t matter if she represents herself as old enough or looks old enough. He should have asked for an ID. Oh great. She got in on a fake ID, so is she going to use her real ID now? How absurd is that?

What about this? Aren’t the parents still responsible? So if the underage girl sneaks out and gets pregnant from an older guy, shouldn’t the parents get prosecuted for statutory rape? Or at the very least bad parenting? If the girl isn’t responsible, then who is? The man? But he didn’t know. The parents? But she escaped them without their permission.

My feelings are complicated. I have a 15 year old girl. She’s never dated and she is not interested in growing up. She sees the responsibilities that adults have and she’s glad to be take care of as long as possible. Her friends drink and party and do drugs and she doesn’t approve. She doesn’t think it’s wise. I don’t see her sneaking out to go to a club any time before she’s in college.

If she did, I think she knows what can happen. I don’t think she would trust older guys. She’d hang with her girlfriends and drink only whatever she brought with her.

If somehow she did get involved with an older man, I would assume some nefarious actions had occurred. It wouldn’t be like her. If she did something like that, it would be under the influence of some drug or another.

It reminds me of discussions we’ve had about rape. If the girl is under the influence of some drug, can she consent to sex? Most people here who answered the question said no. Yet, she chose to imbibe, knowing the effect it would have on her. In fact, she imbibed because of the effect it would have on her. How far can we go to protect her? Any her. Any age? If they put themselves in the way of harm, do they lose their right to protection?

If you deliberately put yourself in the way of harm, do you lose your rights to protection? If you go to the bad neighborhood, did you bring the mugging on you? If you drink to excess, did you bring the rape on you? If you sneak out to a club when you are underage, do you bring the statutory rape on you?

Officially, we say we don’t blame the victim, and yet, I hear people all the time saying they brought it on themselves. They should have known better. Should they have? And if they should have known better, does that mean the deserve what they get?

Food for thought @wundy! GA.

I’d say that at least some of the culpability lies with the girl in this case.
If y’all’d just keep your pants on until you’re married, you wouldn’t have to worry about this sort of thing.

And if you never cross the road, you don’t have to worry about getting hit by a car, but you miss out on everything that’s on the other side.

@Mariah Bad comparison. We conservative types would cross the road at the crosswalk, when we had the right-of-way.

Sounds to me like the man in that scenario was married.

@KatawaGrey The OP didn’t say one way or the other. If he is married, that’s an additional set of wrongdoings.

Fact from fiction, truth from diction. Seems this question has gone a lot of distance, usually in the pot calling the kettle black direction. There is so many ideologies, and yet so much inconsistency and contradiction. The lynch pin seem to be the phrase and belief behind ”under age”. Whenever that you mention that and sex, or anything that could lead to sex, people immediately get the heebie jeebies. In the US most of the population is so conditioned that any young woman below the magic age of 18 years, even though roughly a third, the magic age is 16 years, they hear an alarm squawk. This nation is so pedophobic no one can fathom any young woman of 15 years, there about, who could even have desires for any male above the magic age.

It is a phantom number, some made up number that slides one way, or the next depending on where you are in the world. It has little to do with biology. You hear phrases like ”He should know better”, ”He should be decent and step away”, ”He should be the bigger man”, etc. It is biology. His eyes and senses are suppose to know how old a young lady is at a distance, and if he finds out she is below the magic number suppose to shut off his senses like turning off a faucet. Makes about as much sense as a person not screaming on a rollercoaster when told they are strapped in, there is no danger of flying out. Mainly because people do not know the real difference from puberty and adolescence, Puberty is the process of physical changes by which a child’s body becomes an adult body capable of reproduction. In a strict sense, the term puberty (derived from the Latin word puberatum (age of maturity, manhood)) refers to the bodily changes of sexual maturation rather than the psychosocial and cultural aspects of adolescent development. Adolescence is the period of psychological and social transition between childhood and adulthood. Adolescence largely overlaps the period of puberty, but its boundaries are less precisely defined and it refers as much to the psychosocial and cultural characteristics of development during the teen years as to the physical changes of puberty. straight from the Net, Wikipedia I believe That is fact more real then a black hole or some quantum space anomaly. Anyone who prides themselves off science should have no problem understanding that. Once puberty hits, the USS Childhood leaves the dock and sails away forever. Unlike mothers of the wild, human mothers want to keep the offspring in the nest as long as possible. These new fledgling adults are not recognized for who they are. Almost as if to say young people that age until they hit the magic number are de facto stupid, incapable of making huge decisions, which in itself is bogus. Word and phrases get tossed around like, ”at that age their minds are not fully developed”, ”They are not old enough to understand the consequences”, ”Their brains are still growing”, all manner of [redacted] to side skirt the obvious.

All that gobbledegoop is disingenuous, even the logic doesn’t support it. If you have a young person who mind is not developed enough to make sound decisions, or the depth of the consequences when they screw up, why allow them access to 3,000lb petro laden missiles? They are not mature enough to handle then. There still developing brains cannot won’t be able to reason they should not get wasted then try to drive home. Also if they go one a crime spree robbing, raping and killing, they should still be tried as kids, after all, their minds are still too young to fully weight the severity of their actions; if we are going to stick with that flawed maturity thinking.

If the one person is over the magic number it automatically makes the person under the magic number stupid. In this case the male by virtue of being over the magic number makes her stupid or ignorant. If she wanted to come on to the 16yr old band geek, or captain of the basketball team, she is doing the same act but she is now smarter. Is that because two inexperienced, brain still developing people counts as one super brain, they inexperience cancels each other out? Maybe the band geek or the high school jock has better intentions than a 32yr old male? Surely, he would not think to use his high school coed just for fun of his loins. Never would a high school aged male think of using a young woman in his school just for sex, the older men with depravity in their hearts corner that market.

The man would have to follow the law, however dubious it is, if he was in a part of the world that in spite maybe lacking the technology of the great West, know more about biology then I would say from a secular stand point there is not opposition, seeing the average age of majority world wide is 15.8 years.

@Hypocrisy_Central Your backwards objections to the fact that a person’s brain is not fully developed don’t work. I believe the age for driving the petro laden missles should be raised, (except it would add to the overpopulation problem we already have). And the other things you bring up are wrongs equal to the seduction issue we are discussing.

The fact that wrong treatment of teens abounds is not an excuse to make one more wrong turn right.

@YARNLADY ¬Your backwards objections to the fact that a person’s brain is not fully developed don’t work. This whole question hinges on him seeing her as a child not off biology but ideology. If one is going to inject the ideology of the brain not fully being function, and thus rendering the younger person with out the faculties to understand the gravity of their action, I am going to call them on it. It is what it is, where it is. A fruit that grows on the tree people call a Washington apple, is still the same fruit if you take it to Arizona, and remains unchanged if you take it to Road Island. You can take it back East and call it a “New York Pineapple”, that didn’t change it physically one iota. If you want to play the “inexperience stupid” card for her because she came on to an older male, because her brain isn’t mature enough for her to know what the hell she is doing, the same would apply to her shooting someone, even if they died. It is quite plausible in her inexperienced, not fully mature mind, she seen it more like a video game or not as serious as it is. If you are going to use science and biology it is like gravity, it does what it does. If it helps by keeping the wind from taking your street side b-ball court, it does. If it is unhelpful because it causes you injury when the balcony collapsed it still did what id does, it doesn’t say there are kid on the balcony, think I will stop working for a moment because I don’t want the children injured. It cuts both ways. It is what it is.

The biology is clear. In what part of the world she is considered adult is off human interpretation. In one nation, she is an adult at 12, another at 16, in yet another not until she is 21. Her physical biology cares not for what man wants to make himself believe. If that were the case, puppies would have puppies, and kittens would have kittens.

@Hypocrisy_Central If that were the case, puppies would have puppies, and kittens would have kittens. They do I don’t get what you are saying here.

Children have children, as well. The youngest mother on record to give birth was 5 years old. I suppose according to you, she seduced the father.

The biology isn’t what is in question here, but the maturity. Children learn how to mimic flirting at a very early age, but that doesn’t mean they know what they are doing. Teen girls with their raging hormones are very adept at it, but never the less, not responsible for their behavior.

Young killers are likewise not responsible, but society has a much harder time accepting that than the sex angle.

@YARNLADY If that were the case, puppies would have puppies, and kittens would have kittens. They do I don’t get what you are saying here. It is pretty much what you just said, almost. When a puppy or a kitten is born they go through a certain period of development until they are biologically transformed (for lack of a better word) capable to produce offspring. With dog and cat, they go into heat, those raging hormones you speak of. That tells them they are old enough and fit to be parents. On normal cases five year olds are not capable and do not have children even if having sex, which would be often against there will by an adult using them. One anomaly does not normality make.

The biology isn’t what is in question here, but the maturity. Children learn how to mimic flirting at a very early age, but that doesn’t mean they know what they are doing. Lets go with that angle then. The maturity is a part of adolescence, it may overlap puberty but it is not the same. That is why in a more tribal setting the elders would be taking these new and fledgling adults under their wing showing them what and how to do things to have a proper place in the tribe community. People may have gotten away from that type of community but that doesn’t change physical development. Children learn cues and mimic what they are expose to around them, then I guess it is really irresponsible to give a young child a realistic 1st shooter video game and let them loose by themselves with it for hours a day weeks on end. They might start to get desensitized to shooting something and the lines between reality can be blurred in their immature minds.

Young killers are likewise not responsible, but society has a much harder time accepting that than the sex angle. At least I can concur with that. The issue is drove much by what people want to believe then what it really is as to misapply the same criteria across the board. The two-faced hypocrisy I see, as you pointed out.

Everyone seems to be trying to justify the maturity level of the people involved. But the bottom line is simple. The law is the law, it is either legal or it is not legal, there is no gray area!

This question is not about the law. Everyone knows what the law says. This question is about principles. The only reason to bring law in is to say that the law is different all over the place. Clearly it is either unprincipled or the principles are different, or the principles are being applied in quite different ways.

It’s not an issue of how these things are treated by law (or our society) but how they should be treated by our society.

Where has @QueenOfNowhere gone? She’s left methinks…

@Jellie Yeah, she posted a truly awful comment on another question and got herself removed.

Clipped by the Fluther Luca Brasi…......I wonder if she will be found under the fresh cement poured on the interstate?

Nope, I whacked her with my shovel and stuffed her in the frizzer.