Ethics gut check: Found lotto ticket that wins, do you try to return it to the owner?

I’d keep the money. And I don’t think I’d feel bad or something. Then probably I’d buy a new house for my mother, another house for me, and many gifts for my friends.

I would keep it, but I’d be sure to track her down eventually and split all winnings with her 50/50.

Finders keepers losers weepers….yeah that’s right, the law of the playground would prevail in this instance.

It’s her problem if she lost the ticket, just do something good with the money. Karma gave you a fair chance.

I try to find the owner.Yes,that’s right.

Keep the money.

Return it…I first call Alfred and see if he knows this lady and go from there.

I’d call the number and ask a few questions to see if it is the same person, or if “Alfred” knows her.. without letting on that I have a winning lotto ticket. If I can connect with the woman, I would return it.
Otherwise, I’d keep it. Of course.

Instead of a lottery ticket, what if it was an envelope containing family photos? Would you make an effort to return it?

What if it was an envelope with $250 cash?

I think it’s important to ask yourself what you would do if the item meant nothing to you. If your “ethical” decision changes based on your particular desire for that object, what does that say? Is this merely rationalizing theft because you really want the object?

@tom_g believe me, I’d love a winning lotto ticket. For $2 or $2,000. I’d love cash in an envelope, and I’d rather not take someone’s family photos. I would try to return anything I’ve found to the rightful owner if there were a chance that I could find that person. I wouldn’t kill myself trying to get to them, but I would make an effort. And that’s the truth.

For the record, I would have a really difficult time with this. I can easily say right now that the ethical decision would be to return the lottery ticket. But fantasies of the effects this money could have on me and my family would have me contemplating flushing my moral code down the toilet.

But I know that what the right thing to do is.

By the way, great question @Hypocrisy_Central.

Try to find the woman.

for 21 million I’d live with the guilt.

@glenjamin: “for 21 million I’d live with the guilt.”

I get this. I really do. The obvious follow-up question is now…

If you could steal 21 million dollars from a recent lottery winner without any chance of getting caught, would you? If you wouldn’t, why not?

I wish that little voice inside my head would learn when to shut the “F” up!

Yes, I would find the lady and return the ticket and hope that she had the integrity to split it with me, or at minimum fork over a significant chunk of reward. (of course, I would not be above reminding her that splitting it with me would be the right thing to do)

EDIT: Actually, on second thought, I would find the woman and remind her that the lottery ticket is a “bearer instrument” and offer to split it with her to satisfy my sense of fair play. She then has the choice of being grateful and content or pitching a fit because she only got 10.5 mill out of the deal. Either way, everyone gets what they deserve.

I keep it. Things happen for a reason. If you put your trash out by the curb, it’s no longer yours. If someone comes by and grabs that old vacuum cleaner you tossed and the guy fixes it do you expect him to give it back to you?

I cash it in, and when I have the cash I put 10 million in to their bank account annonymously. With my new found wealth, this should be no problem at all. 1 million goes to my extended family, 5 million goes to my immediate family, 2.5 million goes to my friend Fernando, and I keep the other 2.5 million.

@woodcutter – It isn’t a trash pile. The way the question is phrased, this woman was donating books. She was probably reading that book and had yet to check the lottery results. It’s possible she is now ripping her house apart trying to find that lottery ticket. More to the point, you saw her put that book there, and you now have her phone number. If it was an envelope of photos of her kids, would you still keep them or would you try to notify her (or ask the librarian to try to notify her)?

Even if it was a trash pile, what if I was putting out the trash and my 3-year-old son put my iPhone in on top of my trash pile? If you walk by my house, would you feel justified in keeping it?

@poisonedantidote – I’m pretty sure you can’t deposit 10 million to a bank account anonymously, although I could be wrong. Even if you could, what’s the difference between that and the following…

You see a woman in the library and she has a lottery ticket hanging out of her back pocket. You swipe it as you walk by. After receiving your $21 mil, you anonymously deposit $10 million to her bank account, etc…?

By the way, does this question remind anyone else of It’s a Wonderful Life, where Uncle Billy loses that $8000 at the bank? I always interpreted Potter’s actions as theft.

@tom_g My point was she lost it, accidentally discarded it. People get lottery tickets all the time and forget to look. Here’s a better analogy. If you donate clothes, books, anything to Goodwill or any charity, they’re gone, as in not yours anymore. You give up all expectations of changing your mind so be very, very careful when gathering things to drop off. Things happen for a reason. It’s called fate, I believe.
That would be way more money than I could ever handle in ten lifetimes so it would have to be unloaded ,most of it, just so my head wouldn’t explode. A lot of it would go to some specialists who will be motivated to help my wife get her life back, whatever it would take. A woman (or anyone) with a dual masters and can’t use them for good, is a waste if ever there was one.
There have been times where vicious court battles ensue because of people finding out they gave winning tickets away or inadvertently misplaced them. The number inside that book could be 20 years old and may have been a book bought used from another thrift store. What if that wasn’t her book and she found it and wanted to leave it there? You contact anyone, anyone and tell them you found a killer lottery ticket and ask them if it was theirs what do yo think they will say?

@woodcutter – I don’t believe in this “fate” business, or know what it really means. I’m curious, though if you had considered my questions?

1. “If it was an envelope of photos of her kids, would you still keep them or would you try to notify her (or ask the librarian to try to notify her)?”

2. “Even if it was a trash pile, what if I was putting out the trash and my 3-year-old son put my iPhone in on top of my trash pile? If you walk by my house, would you feel justified in keeping it?”

I’m assuming the answer is that you would not try to return those kids photos in #1, and you would keep my iPhone. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Regarding your question about the contact info being the wrong info, etc. First, we’re assuming for the sake of this question that it is the right person. Second, haven’t you ever found a wallet? I have found my share of wallets and contacted the owners. You don’t just call up saying, “Hi. I just found a brown wallet with $45 in it. Are you John Smith?” There are ways of determining if you have contacted the correct person. This is a distraction.

Also, @woodcutter: “My point was she lost it, accidentally discarded it.”

I think it might be important to look at this statement a bit closer. What does it mean to lose something?

If I am backwoods hiking and my wallet falls out of my pocket somewhere on my trip, I have lost my wallet. I don’t know where it is. But more importantly – nobody else knows where it is.

If I am walking down a street, my wallet falls out of my pocket, someone behind me witnesses this and lets me know that I have dropped my wallet, have I lost my wallet?

If I am walking down a street, my wallet falls out of my pocket, someone behind me witnesses this, scoops it up and keeps it, have I lost my wallet?

What variables are to be considered when you consider something as “lost”? Is there some kind of rule, like the 5-second-rule when you drop a cookie?

What would have to change in order for you to consider this situation to be theft? And does “fate” play into how you would act if someone in front of you dropped their wallet in the street?

@tom_g I understand what you’re getting at. If the I phone is in a trash heap and the trash heap is in front of your house only, then it would be safe to assume you or somebody put it there. It would be safe to also assume the thing is broken. I mean who in their right mind would throw something perfectly good away? The only thing a person can use to interpret a situation is what is right there in front of them at that time. To expect someone who is otherwise busy with other things to also do detective work on top of what they already have going on is presumptive at best, utopian at worst.
Hey I’m just going by the question as worded at the top. There are no personal pictures mentioned in the scenario. If you make this a moving target I’m never going to hit it..

Fate is real. Some things just happen for better or worse and nothing can be done about it.

@woodcutter: “Fate is real. Some things just happen for better or worse and nothing can be done about it.”

There is something that can be done about it. We could truly analyze our actions and strive to help our fellow humans, rather than rationalize stealing.

If stealing is wrong, then you need to make sure what you’re doing is not stealing. If you don’t feel that stealing is wrong, then maybe this exercise is not worth your time.

And if you feel my questions are a creating a moving target, let me just ask you to ignore those and answer this one:

What would have to change in order for you to consider this situation to be theft?

@tom_g Ok I’m back. Now, If i witness a wallet drop on the ground right there in front of me then I would say Pssst, hey buddy you just dropped your wallet. Everything is right there to make a call. If the woman who stupidly left her lotto ticket in the old book had stayed in the store and browsed a while I suppose I would find her and give it back. In my mind, that ticket is fail anyway, 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of them are. But the ole girl beat feat right out of there like a woman with a rocket in her arse and there really is no hope of ever seeing her again, ever. Then there is the time spread of me taking the time to look up that lotto ticket to see what it was and then I’m supposed to go oh shit I need to try to find this woman? Too much time has gone by.

The first person I would tell about this would be an attorney knowledgeable in these finders keepers things. And what obligations I have. As far as I’m concerned the fact i did try to run after her which really I’m too messed up to run but for argument sake I wholeheartedly did try to give it back…not knowing if the ticket wins, then I have done what I could. I tried. In all honesty I would have taken several days to even care to look up those numbers and by then the trail is cold. I will be helping humanity with whatever proceeds come of it because I personally don’t need that kind of money, just a little of it.

I would keep the money. It would just be too difficult to find the owner, and I have no moral obligation to make up for some stranger’s mistake.

@athenasgriffin: “It would just be too difficult to find the owner,”

The question was phrased in a way that made it clear that you know who the owner is.

@tom_g Well, that’ll show me to read the details! Still, I’d keep the ticket. Self interest wins out most of the time.

The question was phrased in a way that made it clear that you know who the owner is Really? Maybe, but those vague scribblings in a book seems like a stretch. It is a gift of fate. If anything this question will help me to make sure to never misplace the only proof that I’m a possible millionaire…for the one or two times a year I bother with powerball.

@tom_g “I’m pretty sure you can’t deposit 10 million to a bank account anonymously” .. maybe not in your part of the woods, here it would not be hard. I just pay money in to an account based off a name.

What is the difference between my scenario and the one you offer… in one im a thief who is stealing lotto tickets on the off chance ill win, in the other scenario I’m just fortunate.

Just so you know… I see a lotto ticket hanging out a back pocket that I know for a fact to be worth 21 million, and I’m taking it.

EDIT:

Then again… having a ticket would not help me much. On the island I live on, having a ticket is not enough, your name has to match the name on the ticket. Well… that depends on the kind of lotto ticket, for the big one I’d need a name

For those that are advocating a form of self-accepting immorality or amorality, did you ever have a moral compass, or are you still in the earlier stages of shedding a religious-based morality of the carrot/stick?

We can have a debate on morality any time you like, I’m sure you would find it an interesting challenge. I am a life long atheist, so the idea of religion based morality goes right out the door, and I do have a moral compass, quite a complex one too. However, if you are going to dangle 21 million dollars in front of me, and I can get it without hurting anyone or intimidating anyone, it’s coming with me. My entire familys future vs some strangers carelessness.

@lucillelucillelucille I try to find the owner.Yes,that’s right. Many believe it impossible or not worth the effort so they would just pocket the money. My question is how long, or what amount of effort do you put in to say you have looked enough? If the number in the book yielded no fruit, what do you do next to track her down? As @woodcutter, I think, alluded to, it is a bearer’s document, if the woman did not sign it whomever gets possession of it, it belongs to them. Technically, you would not be stealing it if you kept it. In the spirit of how many see stealing, you might. The number leads to a dead end, what more would you do to locate her? By the way, which is quite noble. Also for @Cruiser and @ANef_is_Enuf.

@tom_g I think it’s important to ask yourself what you would do if the item meant nothing to you. If your “ethical” decision changes based on your particular desire for that object, what does that say? Is this merely rationalizing theft because you really want the object? I LOVE your whole way of thinking on this. The logic, the way you are extrapolating it. Sokath! His eyes open! I am getting goose bumps. It is like when Morpheus found Neo, one worthy of bring order and logic to Fluther long thought dead. In the end it really does come down to if the person finding it desire it so much that they would keep it. If it was them that lost it would they say “C’est la vie”, and chalk the ticket as a loss and no longer care about it? If they realize they lost it only to get back to it too late and it was gone, then someone in town wins off a ticket purchased from the store they always go to they should not inquire about it but accept they lost possession of it and not another is enjoying the money?

But fantasies of the effects this money could have on me and my family would have me contemplating flushing my moral code down the toilet. That is the rub, isn’t it? People who would not take a satchel dropped by the Brinks driver and forgotten because it would be like stealing would shit the sands if it were winnings and not actual money in someone’s possession. Guess that is one of the reason people don’t like money because it can corrupt quite easy.

If you could steal 21 million dollars from a recent lottery winner without any chance of getting caught, would you? If you wouldn’t, why not?” That is a good question frankly. How would keeping a 21 million dollar lotto ticket differ from seeing a loophole or accounting error that would allow you to funnel that amount of money to your private account. Though that was not intended, if you could legally get away with it, do you?

@woodcutter @tom_g My point was she lost it, accidentally discarded it. People get lottery tickets all the time and forget to look. Here’s a better analogy. If you donate clothes, books, anything to Goodwill or any charity, they’re gone, as in not yours anymore. You give up all expectations of changing your mind so be very, very careful when gathering things to drop off. Things happen for a reason. It’s called fate, I believe. Is there a difference in accidently doing something as oppose to purposely doing it? If I purposely give a way a jacket to Goodwill but I forgot I put my diamond cuff links in the pocket and had not intended to give them away. If it took me 12 to 18 hours to discover that and I go back to Goodwill do they get to grandfather them into my giving of the jacket and simply say “It was part of the donation, it is ours now, tough tookus”? Because in the spirit of me giving I never intended to give the cuff links I should get them back?

The number inside that book could be 20 years old and may have been a book bought used from another thrift store. What if that wasn’t her book and she found it and wanted to leave it there? You contact anyone, anyone and tell them you found a killer lottery ticket and ask them if it was theirs what do yo think they will say? All those things are probable. The book could have changed hands several times before she left it. The number could no longer be in service. She might have found the book at the bus stop. Because those are probabilities does that mean one should not bother to try? You don’t have to advertise you found a lotto ticket. You could say you were looking for a woman that donated a book of bla bla to blab la library, that she may have left a personal item in the book. Most people might think it was a photo, document, license and never bother to call up about it. If she realized she is missing a lotto ticket, she might contact you.

@poisonedantidote: “We can have a debate on morality any time you like, I’m sure you would find it an interesting challenge. I am a life long atheist, so the idea of religion based morality goes right out the door, and I do have a moral compass, quite a complex one too. However, if you are going to dangle 21 million dollars in front of me, and I can get it without hurting anyone or intimidating anyone, it’s coming with me. My entire familys future vs some strangers carelessness.”

I honestly didn’t think this was a “debate” or a challenge. I’m getting the sense that people are saying that they know it would be wrong, but that they couldn’t resist the temptation. I get that. I really do. However, it seems as though people are stopping short of actually admitting that the right thing to do would be to return it.

@poisonedantidote However, if you are going to dangle 21 million dollars in front of me, and I can get it without hurting anyone or intimidating anyone, it’s coming with me. My entire familys future vs some strangers carelessness.

Fuck yeah.

I would still track her down and split it 50/50 though.

@FutureMemory Why is it she can be tracked down after the ticket got cashed in, why not before? What would change in the ability to locate her?

Maybe she left it in the book for a reason, hoping someone would have a lucky day and win.

I’d keep it.

@Hypocrisy_Central Clearly because if I gave it back to her before cashing it in, she might simply say “hey thanks!” and leave me with squat.

@FutureMemory: “Clearly because if I gave it back to her before cashing it in, she might simply say “hey thanks!” and leave me with squat.”

I don’t see any of this as having anything to do with the moral question. If she chooses to cash it in and not give you a dime, she will have to live with that. You did the right thing. You lost nothing since it was not your money to lose.

This is probably one of the best questions I have seen on fluther. The responses are fascinating. I will probably spin off a question that has to do with morality and its application.

@tom_g Yea, no debate or challenge, not in this thread, it was just an offer to flex the grey muscle a little (maybe on an unrelated topic), I imagine you would have a very particular brand of morality that would be interesting to run thru some scenarios.

Yes, the most correct thing to do would be to return the money, that is the most ethical thing to do, just like the most ethical thing to do would be to not eat meat, and so on. However, outside of the hypothetical scenario we have going here, in the real world, while the most ethical thing would be to return the ticket, the smarter thing would be to keep it. To me, the stupidity of returning the ticket is worse than the selfishness of keeping it.

Has no one above noticed the ticket was stolen from a donated item? The entire question should deal with the library, no one else. I don’t go around stealing things from the donation pile and neither should anyone else.

However, in a slightly different scenario, If I found a ticket and had some way of contacting the owner, I would contact the owner. I don’t think I would bother to find out if it was a winning ticket or not, since it doesn’t belong to me.

@Hypocrisy_Central -Simply put,if I felt as if I was getting somewhere and had a good chance of finding the owner,I would keep looking.
Why? Because the ticket is not mine and if I didn’t give it a very good effort,I couldn’t live with myself.
I prefer to live with my integrity intact.

@YARNLADY Good point!! Lurve that!

@lucillelucillelucille Lurva that, maybe you might check to see if the library had cameras covering the front to actually get a visual of the woman you might use in some creative way to located her…..just a thought. :-)

@poisonedantidote To me, the stupidity of returning the ticket is worse than the selfishness of keeping it. Out of curiosity, just how far down does that rabbit hole go? Where is the depth where that no longer applies?

@YARNLADY I would definitely do the right thing and buy the book the ticket fell out of.

If I found a lottery ticket, I’d cash it in out of curiosity. If it was a winning lottery ticket, I’d absolutely keep the cash. There’s no way to justify that, but I would definitely keep it.

@FutureMemory Heh. Exactly, its the least one can do. I would also read it and after that it would go in a shadow box in full display in my new office, er office I really have no office at the moment, But if I did It would have a roll top desk and a bankers lamp, that’s all.

The only problem with this scenario is that the lady will probably recognize those numbers when you claim those winnings (and get photographed by the media for all the world to see) . In almost all cases a lotto player doesn’t just scribble any old numbers to win, they have a system.. (then again, it had been four days later).. What a quandary. All I can say is there’s two ways this can go, either the woman doesn’t have a ‘system’ and you get to bank a lot of cash or she’ll fight to the death for what’s hers.. Though I don’t know that they can trace where this ticket was bought.. In all other instances, legally she can’t do much but for awhile (if you decide to keep it) you will be walking on glass.. Myself, I’d skip the country asap for a couple decades if I decided to keep it. If I can recall correctly, a similar instance occurred in Texas.. It became a hot item (in the press) for several days, then nothing (maybe a compromise that eventually settled the dispute?) I don’t know because the press never followed through.. but I don’t think I would have much of an inner argument as to what I would do.

@chewhorse Though I don’t know that they can trace where this ticket was bought. Here in Cali the bar code at the bottom tells the lotto officials which store sold the ticket so they can get their percentage for selling it. Many places have cameras so they can probably go back to the footage to see who was in the store that day, and if the woman with the book was there and not the person with the ticket, you have a sticky wicket there. Surely something some lawyer, who can see him/herself getting a big pay day will pounce on, in getting that woman her money.

I think a safe thing to do is if you have the winning ticket is to keep your powder dry and just sit on it as long as it is allowed before it becomes invalid. If there were others who picked those same numbers they will get their portion of the jackpot and the last remaining winning ticket’s share will either be rolled back into the pot if no one claims it or they award the winnings to the last ticket holder. If the lady is careless enough to forget the stub in the first place, probably won’t remember the numbers anyway, or remember when or where she misplaced it. I have never seen a lotto ticket with the bearers name printed on it but they may exist. I almost never play so I really don’t know.

@woodcutter: “If the lady is careless enough to forget the stub in the first place, probably won’t remember the numbers anyway, or remember when or where she misplaced it.”

Ok, this is potentially the most troubling part of the “don’t return it” position. We know nothing about this woman. We also know little about how “careless” she is. I could write a million of these scenarios and all of them are just as likely:

1. The woman was completely careless. She didn’t even remember buying the lottery ticket.

2. The woman is home right now tearing apart her house desperately trying to find that lottery ticket. Her young daughter put it in the book.

3. The woman did use it as a bookmark, forgot the drawing happened, but has since remembered. She is a single mom with 3 kids. This shit happens. She is now desperately trying to find that ticket.

4. The woman is undergoing treatment for a terminal illness. Her medication is making her “flakey”. Her husband is now asking her to try to figure out where that lottery ticket is. They have no health insurance.

We know practically nothing about people and their situations. We cannot bring this type of “she was careless” and therefore deserved it crap. We’re still left with this one question: What are you going to do with something that does not belong to you?

Here’s a question for the “I do what I decide is right for me” group:

Do you remember when you were a kid and someone sat down and attempted to describe the concept of doing what is right? It usually goes something like this: “How would you feel if Mikey took your toy?” These are exercises in empathy and morality.

Being against people stealing your stuff is not an ethical principle. Being against anyone stealing anyone’s stuff is.

NOTE: This is starting to touch on a thread that is going on right now on fluther about torture. Being against torture of you or your side isn’t being against torture, and it has nothing to do with morality. Just like only supporting speech you like doesn’t make you an advocate of free speech.

@tom_g NOTE: This is starting to touch on a thread that is going on right now on fluther about torture. Being against torture of you or your side isn’t being against torture, and it has nothing to do with morality. Just like only supporting speech you like doesn’t make you an advocate of free speech. I can see your logic quite clear. Many parts of this thread brings reality to my question here. Often time things do not get done as best they should because people don’t reach far enough. They only expand their mind as far as it takes to bolster their own thoughts, if the logic don’t match it, they try to force the logic to fix what they want to be correct, thus making themselves feel better in their choice of action.
Dang your logic give me chills of excitement <on chair clapping>

It’s easy to claim the high road over the internet. A few of us dare to admit the way it is :)

@woodcutter: “It’s easy to claim the high road over the internet. A few of us dare to admit the way it is :)”

Right, a few us have…

@tom_g: “For the record, I would have a really difficult time with this. I can easily say right now that the ethical decision would be to return the lottery ticket. But fantasies of the effects this money could have on me and my family would have me contemplating flushing my moral code down the toilet.
But I know that what the right thing to do is.” [from here]

And of course, honesty is a great thing. But being honest about stealing something doesn’t have the righteous punch that some may think it does.

I am not saying that I know for a fact how I would act in every situation. But I think it’s important to iron out these things now so that they may inform our decisions when situations may be clouded with other things, such as desire.

If you find a treasure are you going try to contact the pirate?

A very good point @Hypocrisy_Central .. It would be a lawyer’s wet dream but if I found this ticket then I would without a doubt wait until the last day before it expires (and the average expiration is from 90 to 120 days) then I would cash it in and if confronted by the owner, would be willing to split it with her so long as she didn’t fight it and if she did would remind the court that had I not claimed it then it would have become worthless. I would then repeat my offer and tell them that she had not signed it thus should belong to the finder in the same manner that a storage facility can be owned by another without the owner’s consent and the storage owner could not claim the diamond jewerly that was found within.