Do you remember the particulars of your gender socialization?

I don’t remember being taught how to be a boy. It came naturally.It wasn’t policed. My desire to pick up frogs, stab snakes with sticks, and fry ants with a magnifying glass was entirely innate.

My kids are growing up in an entirely different world. I don’t consciously enforce gender norms, but I’m sure I do.

@digitalimpression 2 questions:
1. How can we be sure anything we feel (not just having to do with gender) is innate and separate it from what we were taught? (also, those particular activities don’t seem like they’re specific to boys. Do you think they are?)
2. What do you mean by an ‘entirely different world’?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Is this a graded quiz? =)

1. We can’t? I think they are because growing up that’s just how it was. There was always the occasional “tom-boy” but we thought nothing of it. I don’t remember anyone enforcing it by words or specific action.. it just sort of… happened. Us boys fell into the stereotype without a fight, loving every minute of it.

2. The plethora of totally new and unique stimuli shotgunning toward the little ones these days. The internet, tv with hundreds of channels, cell phones, living in a city instead of where I grew up in the country, etc etc

Actually (in my generation) the parents didn’t concern themselves very much with this particular situation as throughout the media it was explicitly obvious as to which gender played with which toy and the parents simply bought the cooresponding items associated to their child.. Yes, it was a bit biased where a girl wasn’t expected to play with heavy duty toy equipment and boys were not expected to play with dolls.. In today’s generation it’s a must that parents explain, guide and teach their child the do’s and dont’s of their gender as all toys are now (basically) considered generic.

My mom constantly pestered me into behaving like a girl should. But she also told me that sinners burn in Hell for all eternity.
I remember this time when I was like four, I was pretending to be a boy and said I was gonna go pee standing up, and she got all pissed off, saying that girls don’t do that.

My dad, on the other hand, didn’t give a fuck what I did, as long as I was happy, discovering stuff, didn’t get hurt and didn’t make a mess. XD

My mom was like anger itself though, and my dad couldn’t stand up to that much. He tried, but I saw him crying a coupla times. Still, whoever did what, I’m what I am now, can’t say much beyond that.

@digitalimpression Sorry, I get like this when I am using a question to tease apart issues I’m interested in. What do the changes you mention have to do with gender norms? @chewhorse Well all parents (of all generations) concern themselves with properly gendering kids. Perhaps, you simply didn’t do anything that stepped outside the norms expected of you (correct me if I’m wrong). @Symbeline Yeah, seems like they certainly policed their own gender, as well. How do you think you will raise your children (if you plan on any)?

I don’t remember this exactly as you describe it, because as I’ve expressed before… I was always encouraged to do “boy” things. If anything, my mother would be annoyed if I didn’t want to play a sport or roll around in the mud. She would always praise my middle sister because she was, as my mother always says, her “little tomboy.” With a big, proud smile. But, my mom loves to brag about how she used to hang her neighbor from the second story window, and shoot at the girl down the street with a bb gun and how she only played with the boys… so I think it was a great deal of hoping that she would see more of herself in us. Or something that she liked about herself, perhaps. My mom loves to assert that she isn’t a “lady,” and she really loves people to perceive her as a hardass. So, it was never really directly referred to as a gender issue, but more of a certain attitude she wanted to instill in us.
As for my kids, they are definitely raised in a rigid idea of gender “normalcy.” They are boys, and they only like boy things, and I have heard them scolded for anything that can be perceived as feminine. I am not in a position where I can really change the circumstances, since they are my stepchildren. I don’t have the right to step in on an issue like this, although I hate it, but I do not ever encourage it or actively reinforce these ideals. Their mother is blatantly racist, and I assume homophobic, so part of my refusal to encourage the opposite is to protect them from her judgment. That’s quite sad to have to say, but it is true. So, I make no effort to change that aspect of their upbringing… however, in our household we do focus on teaching acceptance of diversity. When the racism issue came up, my husband and I had a biiiig sit down talk about what we planned to do to change that and immediately put our plan into effect. The same thing happened when we first heard the kids using the word “gay” with a negative connotation. Needless to say, that has been a battle in and of itself. I think attempting to liberate them from the social expectations of their gender would be a challenge that could be potentially harmful to them, directly. It does concern me, though, and that is why my husband and I try to really make them understand that we are an accepting family, and that our relationships are built on trust, so if they need to come to someone.. they can come to us. And I hope that if it ever becomes an issue in the future, that foundation will be enough to at least give them some emotional cushion. This is really something that I’ve thought about a lot, due to having to co-parent with someone who does not share my (or my husband’s) personal values at all, but has a hugely significant influence on our children.

@ANef_is_Enuf This is definitely a tough journey. I think, with time, you will feel more able to discuss these things with your kids. I’m glad Alex was always on top of treating Alexey as his son and always disciplining him and teaching him the same as he would Ark. I don’t know about the mother of your stepchildren, in terms of temperament, but my ex-husband is not consistent enough to be much of a thorn in my side (though he is, sometimes) about how I’m raising him. I send him links to my parenting blog all the time, he must hate it but he hasn’t said much to me about it.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir How are the changes relevant? Well…

I grew up in a place and time where men did manly things and women did womanly things. No one sat around and over-analyzed the situation.. just lived life.

Nowadays, where I live, there are umpteen different brands of sexuality and gender norms are sort of scattered to the winds. Kids show up to school with two moms. Two men might be seen walking down the street hand in hand. Etc etc. I simply was not exposed to it. My kids are.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I’ll take my dad’s approach. Gotta teach them stuff that goes on beyond the barriers but that are actually really normal, and let them learn things on their own, too. (didn’t mention this here, but he did) But well I can’t answer your question because I have NO idea what having kids is like. Prolly not what I think it is. But if it happens, I will think of my dad and what he did for me. I might be a mess now, but he tried. I don’t plan on ever having kids though.

@digitalimpression Well, given a long history of social theorists writing on the topic of gender as well as gender inequality, we know some people sat around and did just that. Of course, they were people of privilege and could afford to do so. I think it’s easier to breathe when there are umpteen ways to describe how people are since people come in even more varieties than there are labels, don’t you think? Or is this something you worry about?

@Symbeline – that is a very sweet connection to your father that you have. Wish I could say the same about my father and me. But, I can’t.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir well, I have been a fixture in their lives for 8 years, so I feel like our relationship has already been formed. Not that it doesn’t continue to grow and evolve, and they definitely respect and love me as a parent, but I approached this from day one as if I were a step below “mom & dad.” Which I believe is the way that it should be, assuming both biological parents are present and involved. In our case, that is true, and custody is 50/50. Having said that, my approach in providing them a “safe” person to go to has absolutely worked, because they do trust me with information that they are not comfortable sharing with their biological mother. So my intention is to build on that, and hopefully someday we can discuss that sort of thing. In the meanwhile, though, we do focus on acceptance. I may not bring it up as a sit down discussion, but I’m positive that if the phrase “but, that’s for girls!” ever came out of their mouths I would be quick to correct them.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I don’t worry about it.. just sort of… take it day by day. It has been admittedly tough to adjust to and accept.. resistance is truly futile xD

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Yeah, I heard you talk about your dad a few times before. So many parents suck. My mom included lol.

@digitalimpression Well, I thank you for being honest and for your input. Life’s a winding road, all the time, we’re all growing.

@ANef_is_Enuf Oh, I take a diff approach. I don’t know why. I always figured that the person I am with (in a serious way) that is raising my kids with me is ‘on the same level’ as bio parents. In fact, due to Alex being an awesome parent and my ex being barely a parent, Alex is well above him, if we’re giving placements. We too have 50/50 custody but everyone’s different. In some ways, the fact that I made it 50/50 scares me now because if something were to happen to me, I don’t want my oldest to be raised by my ex but surely by his father, his stepfather, I mean.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir well, I agree in situations like that. Donating sperm or giving birth is not all it takes to be a parent.

Well, offhand, I remember my dad saying I should play the flute because that is what a girl should play, not the drums.
I also remember my dad saying that a woman will NEVER make as much as a man, even if she has to do twice as much work (which reflected in my chores and allowance as opposed to what my brothers had to do to make twice as much)
BUT
I also remember my step-mother(s) having my dad do what is considered the female duties and him just doing them.
So, I’m not quite sure if I was really “traumatized”, but I did learn that there were ways around these imposed gender “assignments”!

@size7 Did you ever try the drums later on?

Apparently paragraph usage is genderless. ;-)

@Brian1946 Eh, I’m sure someone somewhere did research on how men and women in our society construct sentences and paragraphs and linked it to something they perceive to be ‘hard-wired’ (as per usual) but I am way too exhausted to look it up, :)

@Simone_De_Beauvoir no, I decided the only instruments I should play are the cd players and radio! I had never taken to it once I saw what my cousin was going through with what he was trying to learn.
In fact, I had given up all together. I decided it wasn’t worth learning to play something I wasn’t all that into to begin with.
I am not sure if that had anything to do with my dad or not.

Silly, isn’t it?

Actually, my parents weren’t really like that. I was a “tom-boy” when I was younger (less than 10) and always playing with boys…but I was always interested in Barbies, but my older brother would play too..it wasn’t anything we really thought about.
I’d say the only thing my mother “pushed” was girly clothing when I was middle school. She liked picking out clothes for me so they tended to be feminine.

Huge props to my parents. They didn’t openly communicate with me about gender norms the way you do, Simone, but they certainly didn’t force me into a female gender role either. My bedroom was painted blue and they were just as eager to dress me up in overalls and shirts with little train graphics as they were to put me in a dress. I seem to remember most of my toys being puzzle toys and they very much encouraged my interests, not caring that they tended to lean towards the more stereotypical “male” side. For instance, I loved toys that involved building things – K’nex stand out in my mind – and in school I liked math the best. I started doing science fair projects in the first grade when most kids didn’t start until later. My dad got me a small telescope for my tenth birthday because I shared his interest in astronomy. In short, they encouraged my interests and didn’t give a shit whether they were typical “male” or “female” interests, which I very much appreciate.

Looking back on early elementary school, I distinctly remember looking around at a lot of the other girls and thinking that they were very quiet and prim and proper. I remember thinking that was silly and boring and I didn’t want to be like them.

It only became a problem when I reached fifth grade and started that phase of adolescence where many of the girls start to become a bit “catty” and suddenly I began to feel very self-conscious about how “different” I was from most of them. I finally became aware of the fact that I didn’t style my hair and I didn’t care about clothes and I started to get picked on. For the first time I wanted to fit in with the others and I had a lot of self esteem problems during grades 5–8 until I “came into my own” and realized that I was fine with being my own person and didn’t actually care what they thought about me.

I was raised by my single, very butch lesbian mom. My grandma tried to make me more like a “traditional girl,” by buying me makeup and, later, some surprisingly cleavage-revealing shirts, but this never really “stuck” with me. Mom wore jeans and boots and no makeup and a buzz cut,which seemed far more practical and less trouble to deal with in the morning. I did indulge in the makeup thing in high school because my peers did and it was expected, but as soon as I moved out, I only put on makeup for Rocky Horror nights.

On my own, since I grew up and cared less what my peers thought, I slid back into the mildly-butch habits. It “helps” that I have PCOS with all of its attendant hormonal disturbances, too; I mean, when you have to shave your face every day just to look like a normal woman does with no effort, it seems ridiculous to doll up.

Culturally, though, I did take to “traditional” stuff more easily. My husband (a long-haired Army vet) is also only weakly-culturally male. The way we split duties is according to our skills, but since I cook better and he lifts heavy things and deals with paperwork, it sort of defaults to a traditional set of gender roles that is slightly embarrassing to both of us. I cite this only because, as a kid, Mom didn’t split the duties with anyone. A single parent has to take them all on, from cooking to mowing the lawn. So I wasn’t socialized any particular way, and it still fell down traditional lines.

In short, it was my peers who did any enforcement of gender roles (in some cases, through violence and ostracism), more than my mom. It only partially stuck.

My parents were very similar to those of @Mariah. They didn’t necessarily discuss gender norms with me, but they didn’t force things on me, for the most part. I mean, of course, they dressed me in traditional boy’s clothes (not that I had any desire for any otherwise) and they bought me boys’ toys for Christmas and such. But when I wanted an EasyBake oven, they didn’t hesitate to get me one…and when I wanted to wear pink plastic sunglasses they didn’t care. And they didn’t mind that I hung out with girls and played house and pretended to be the “mom” and even sometimes played dress-up and wore my mom’s clothes. They were just going to let whatever happened happen and not try to quash any of my “effeminate” leanings. And it’s not that I didn’t like traditional boys’ things too; I always liked the clothes I had and I liked things like Hot Wheels, K’nex, and digging in the dirt. Of course as I grew older, I became more embarrassed of the more feminine things and I myself threw much of that aside and tried to be more “manly”, though I was always more effeminate than many of the other guys at school (and I as I got older still, I became more open about revealing some of my less manly interests).

I don’t remember anything traumatizing me other than that I was “bullied” a bit at school for spending so much time with girls. People found that threatening in some way or another…

Also, my parents later looked back on all of this and said that at the time, they guessed that perhaps I was going to be gay given my interests as a young child, though they never said anything about it because they didn’t want to assume based on stereotypes, but they were right. When I finally did tell my parents I was gay, it didn’t surprise them all that much. :)

I was never told that I couldn’t/shouldn’t do something because “girls don’t do that”. I was always in dresses and had My Little Ponys and a few Barbies until I turned (about) 8 years old when I became more of a tomboy. I can’t remember ever being “policed” as far as my gender was concerned and, although my parents probably stuck to gender norms when it came to clothing me and the toys I had, I can’t imagine they would have had a problem if I had asked for an action man rather than a barbie! When I decided that I’d rather wear jeans and shirts instead of skirts and dresses no one seemed to have a problem. On the whole, I think that part of my childhood was realistic and down to earth. Their were no real expectations to be overly one way or another.

I can’t remember anything in particular from my family, but it was definitely policed by my friends (male and female). Like men have to drink beer and vodka, and only women drink wine and wine coolers, and men can’t drink anything fruity.

@DominicX Yeah, but that conflation of what a child chooses to do and a later expression of homosexuality always seemed ridiculous to me. There are many kids who transgress gender norms (only because we come up with norms, to begin with, it makes no sense to kids) and don’t grow up to identify as queer. Only when someone is queer, do their parents or themselves go through a kind of confirmation bias, connecting some past events as ‘evidence’.

You know, I don’t really remember that well. I’m thinking that most of it was gleaned passively from media and peers, and to a lesser extent my siblings and parents. My parents are kind of traditional, and my dad jokingly refers to himself as an unapologetic chauvanist (he is kind of sexist, but certainly not the most grievous example I’ve seen, and he’s softened up in his old age being surrounded by more kickass women), but I don’t think they never explicitly enforced that. They had to learn to deal with me being kind of a counter-culture rebel early on, so I’m sure that had something to do with their laxness. That, and despite any of their own traditional opinions, they always took the approach of giving us as much love and support as we needed, rather than drag us down with bullshit. Not suprisingly, my siblings and I all turned out all right. :)

P.S. I bet hobbitsubculture has more interesting stories, so I sent this to her.