Do you find that sometimes atheists get very aggressive and disrespectful in their arguments?

I hate it. And, this is one of the reasons why I avoid religious/atheists questions.

He’s just rude.Ignore him.

I call them Evangelical Athiests. :-) Gotta love them though. “For the Bible tells me so.”

I’m not sure his behavior has much to do with the fact that he’s an atheist. It’s probably just who he is as a person. He’s not a jackass because he’s an atheist. He’s a jackass because he’s a jackass.

@Vunessuh like I said I’ve noticed it in more people than him and in particular when they talk about religion. He’s pretty normal otherwise too, even nice and friendly but today was awful what I saw.

Unfortunately, yes. It’s a shame, too, because a lot of atheists get pegged as being total jerks, but the ones I know are very open minded. Atheists can get just as heated about faith as theistic people can, sometimes.

@Judi Evangelical Atheists is probably the best term I’ve heard of all week!

Aw man! My favorite Evangelical Atheist started to write a response, then didn’t :-(

So do sports fans, and so does everyone. He probably had a bad experience with religious people and let it rule his emotions.

Excellent answer, @Vunessuh.

Hmmmm, how to be nice about this.

I think it is not only true that many atheists have an attitude problem regarding religion, but that it is probably quite well known.

As an atheist who does this some times, I have to blaim frustration. It is just very frustrating to see that religious people are real, and that you are forced to share the world with them.

See, atheism is totally a personal thing, you can as an individual not believe in a god or gods, and it is totally detached from what Richard Dawkins thinks, or what any other atheist group is up to. There is no atheism membership. However, religions do tend to have the membership factor, if someone tells you they are Catholic, you can automatically assume that they are if not fully, at least partly in agreement with the pope and the Vatican and so on. If someone tells me they are catholic, I automatically lump them in together with what I think of as “child fuckers”. Likewise if they tell me they are a creationist I automatically lump them in together with the ones trying to brainwash kids via the education system.

If you attack Richard Dawkins, an atheist wont necessarially defend him or his position, he may even join you in bashing the guy, but if you start saying things against the vatican, it is more than likely that Catholics will come to its defense.

To me, my inability to seperate the person from the organization they claim to be member of, makes it very frustrating to know these people exist, much less debate them. Because of this, I will some times act in the way you describe… well, probably not that bad, I would never mention religion at work full stop.

The apropriate response in the situation you describe would be to simply answer with saying “oh go protest a christmas tree you stupid deluded idiot”, or something along those lines.

Once an atheists gets aggressive like that, they are past debate and are simply trying to make you feel bad about your faith.

Yes, it is not very nice, it is even maybe wrong, but… I still some times do it, and can’t see it changing any time soon.

Sometimes, yes. Especially when they do this sort of thing. Be warned, the post is generally Not Safe.

I find that anyone who is proselytizing vehemently, atheists included, and, yes, I know what the word means and I intended to use it can get aggressive and disrespectful of those who don’t agree with them. I’m a deist with some theist overtones, and atheists will call me a fool, some Christians will tell me I don’t have “real” faith, etc etc. It’s never pleasant.

@poisonedantidote thanks for being honest.

@Jellie People aren’t assholes because they’re atheists. It’s not like an atheist is born and then there’s some exclusive “act like a little shit to everyone” gene that comes with it. That’s not how it works. He was a jerk because he just is…whether in that moment or whether he acts that way all the time. It is a choice to disrespect someone else’s beliefs and if that choice was only exclusive to atheists, then you might be on to something, but those behavioral traits can be found in everyone and can also be controlled, regardless of personal beliefs.

@Vunessuh I didn’t say he was an asshole. And that it was because he’s an atheist that he’s an asshole. I was saying that in an argument with religious people he becomes a prick. He’s normal otherwise. Nothing else that he’s passionate about gets him like that. Same with other people who are normal usually but in their discourse regarding their atheism they get very aggressive.

Actually, I tend to think many atheists aren’t angry enough in their arguments. Those that are unreasonably so aren’t more in number than crazed religious people.

I tend to notice more religious people get stuck up and insulting if people dare to question their beliefs.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir why would you want anyone to be angry in any argument?

I have been known to lose my cool when it comes to discussing religion. Mostly, it’s due to frustration and feelings of being overwhelmed. If you are living in the US (or some other highly-religious country), you are surrounded by people who act relatively-rational, seem bright enough to drive a car, and seem capable of critical thought, but are incapable of applying their grown-up logic to their religion.

It is as though you are surrounded by people who have a mind virus, and sometimes there is the urge to shake that damn virus out of them so they stop doing bad shit. Sometimes these are good people who are out there opposing gay marriage and reproductive freedom. If it were not for that part of their mind that is immune to reason, they might be out there making shit better.

Of course it’s frustrating.

@Nullo that made me cringe :P

I share the same sentiment @tom_g and @poisonedantidote I get annoyed that people will continue to believe in something that they can’t even provide a reasoned defense for. But I hope that I have never gone nutty over it.

If you’re a member of a religious group, then you more than likely believe in “your god”, whatever it is. Jehovah and Christ, Allah, G-d, Earth Mother, Shiva or whatever else you want to call it. There have been thousands of religions created by man over the years, with gods such as Jupiter, Zeus, Zoroaster, Quetzlcoatl and any number of others. We pretty much agree not to believe in those gods any more, right? And you don’t believe in any of the others than your own “true god”, right? Well, I just disbelieve in one god more than you.

See how alike we are?

@Jellie Gotcha. I would have understood better had your question read, “Why do some atheists become aggressive and disrespectful during arguments” or something along those lines because to me, your question implies that you think those ugly traits are because of atheism and are common and normal among atheists, which I don’t believe is true. I know plenty of atheists who know how to respectfully debate their point. :) And those who don’t to often times just be aggressive in general regardless of their beliefs.

Yes. I am on other websites and find Christians “act like” they’re on another planet from most Atheists. I find most Atheists to be angry, nasty, uptight and aggressive. I also am aware that many Christians think it’s perfectly alright to slander and mame anyone who doesn’t go along with their beliefs the second they discover you’re not one of them. As a whole? I find the Christians appear to be much, much nicer people. They give you a warm fuzzy while the Atheists give you hypertension.

There are aggressive people on both sides of any argument, but there are rational people on both sides too. I think most of us will tend to notice the bad apples on the opposing side more often.

This guy sounds like a jerk, and I think his view of disliking all religious people is very un-representative of the average athiest.

Both sides sometimes get loud and obnoxious, because religion is a topic that can cut to a person’s core. It often moves past polite discussion and people respond as if defending from an attack – because they are. However, I can see where it’s easier to observe rudeness coming from an opponent (that dirty dog!) than someone on your own side (who is merely defending the faith, or lack thereof, in a reasonable manner from that dirty dog!). It’s awfully hard to take a step back and observe the situation in a meta kind of way, when the emotions are tied up in the outcome.

@laureth , as a person of faith, I tend to cringe more when Christians get pushy than when Atheists do. I don’t have any expectations of an atheist’s behavior, but another Christian should treat people with dignity and respect, regardless of their belief or non belief.

@Mariah I don’t dislike all religion, but I surely think they’re all a desperate grasp for something to explain the origin of life. Is that the same? Is that bad? >.>

I noticed that most (though not all) people who are passionate about any cause (atheism, religious salvation, conservatism, liberalism, libertarianism, communism, gay/trans rights, back to nature, etc., etc.,) tend to be aggressive and disrespectful, and are intolerant of people who don’t share their opinions and/or who come to the debate table with a different worldview. I’ve observed this behavior on several sites (the old Answerbag, here on Fluther, and elsewhere).

Bottom line…we know nothing for certain, so, IMO, IF, every arrogant ego could assimilate this truth, there would be no need for any argument.

We can all speculate night and day, gather information for or against our beliefs, but, ultimately, in the end, we have to concede that we know nothing for certain.

The mark of a truly “open minded” individual is to be able to concede that they do not have all the answers.

Being able to humble yourself enough to say ” I don’t know” is a hallmark of a healthy and mature mind.

@Coloma – I completely agree. This is the position of the atheist (well, most atheists). I just want to add that some xians believe that the fact that there is much we don’t know means that we can’t evaluate positive claims about the existence of a god or gods. Once a positive claim has been made, it’s on the table, and it’s fair game.

I can’t say “We are being held to the earth by invisible elves that look like Elmo.” without expecting my claim to be dissected and possibly ridiculed. The fact that we don’t know many things is not enough for us to leave this statement unchecked.

@tom_g – Well, duh! Invisible elves that look like elmo?!?! That’s just ridiculous! We’re really being held to earth by invisible goblins who look like the cookie monster!

@Coloma Which is precisely why I <3 agnosticism.

@Aster, and others with this tone in this thread: How is it more okay to say “most athiests are nasty and aggressive and rude” than it is to say “most religious people are naive and unreasonable?” Neither is okay, but I think to overcompensate in retaliation against rude athiests by generalizing and saying athiests as a group tend to be more rude is pretty similar to what those rude athiests were doing in the first place.

@tom_g

Yes, “argument” implies, by it’s very nature, a winner and a loser.
It’s an ego game.

To win and be “right” makes another lose and be “wrong”, by default.

Big dif. between thoughtful discussion that does not involve invalidating anothers opinions of feelings about a hot topic and the heavy hammer of ego that feels the need to be right, mostly to validate it’s fear of being wrong. lol

@Coloma – Sure, but I think sometimes things get heated because we’re not talking about people believing in invisible Elmos. Discussing the concept of jihad or the implications of a xian’s belief in homosexuality as sin has real life implications that affect real people.

I agree that things can get absurdly self-righteous and ego-heavy over minutia here or elsewhere (and I’m not immune). However, there are legitimate reasons, in my opinion, to have a general intolerance for irrational thought that has the ability to manifest in dangerous ways.

People will always be people, religious believers or atheists.

@tom_g

Of course, this is why, IMO, self awareness work is the crux of mankinds evolutionary ‘mission’, so to speak.

Being able to witness oneself and determine when an “argument” is tipping towards ego preservation rather than thoughtful discussion that creates space for new information to penetrate the dungeon of self “right”-iousness.

Hell…if you people knew anything you would know that we have been colonized by ancient astronauts. lololol ;-)

@tom_g : What happened to the invisible bears?

@JilltheTooth – Who said those bears aren’t there? Maybe they also have their own invisible Elmo elves holding them to the earth?

I’ve long speculated that we are all characters in a Farside cartoon.

Do you find that sometimes theists get very aggressive and disrespectful in their arguments?

@uberbatman – Yes. There’s these two Mormon brothers back on the old Answerbag…

@tom_g : Phew. I was afraid that the bears were no more. I like the bears.

Over The Top atheists are like OTT muslims, and OTT liberals,and OTT conservatives, etc. All really loud and rude as hell.or something as bad as a hell might be like.

Condescension always bugs me. Asserting that I have a logical blind spot for my faith – when I have, in fact, worked out the logic to my satisfaction – is quite annoying.

“Turtles all the way down.”

@Nullo , Me too. I don’t want to change any one’s mind, I respect that their beliefs are different and I get annoyed when others can’t afford me the same respect.

“Using logic and reason isn’t enough. You have to be a dick to everyone who doesn’t think like you.” -South Park

IMO, regardless of any religious affiliations, ( I have long expressed I am of a ‘spiritual’ leaning, and resonate, with many of the eastern philosophies of Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism etc. ) we should all be ‘seekers’ of wisdom.

Again, this includes self awareness and personal growth work.

There are MANY good works and if we truly wish to exit this earthly world of form as “enlightened” as is possible, we will discount no-thing in our search for truth.

To answer your question it really only boils down to one reason. Some people think, might makes right. The more aggressive they are the more likely they are right in their views. No matter their reasons for their views, in my mind you became wrong the moment you let emotions enter the equation. Whenever a person starts to get really emotional, I feel its because they are fustrated that they cannot really verbalize how they feel on the subject so they resort to bashing. At this point one should agree to disagree and be aware that you are never going to change the other persons view no matter how much they scream.
I think trying to figure out why they do what they do, is an attempt to justify poor behavior. It comes down to he was behaving like an idiot and unless the woman was goading him, I feel in this instance he was out of line. (especially since it was at work)
I think people who feel passionate about anything can be aggressive when they feel they are either not as strong in their passion or feel they are in the minority. The louder they scream the more I always begin to wonder if they are trying to qualify their beliefs to themselves or me.
A soft voice can often be heard better than a loud voice.
That being said, all I can say as to why certain atheist behave this way or even why certain religious people behave this way, can be for a number of personal reasons. Even if they had a reason for it, (like an abusive up bringing by religous parents), it doesn’t justify being nasty to someone who isn’t attacking you. Whether it would’ve been religion or otherwise, that person probably would’ve grown up in an abusive home. Abusers look for excuses to be abusive. You can totally wipe out religion in the world and we will still find reasons to fight and to hate. Most of the time it comes from a place of feeling disgusted with themselves but they rather blame everyone else for their failures.

I don’t notice much of an influx of bastard atheists. Seems to me there are assholes on both sides of the fence. I notice this a lot more online than at work or school though. In my area, we don’t really have huge discussions on religion. I just talk about movies, some dude talks about how he had sex last night and other mundane stuff.

But there is this one guy who’s always bashing Christianity and fits this question well. Every time he sits with us at lunch and we get into talking about politics and shit, he always has to bring up how Christianity exists to brainwash people and that it rules the world. He says people who believe need to get out of this rut and live for themselves.

However, he’s also fuckin crazy. He’s convinced that he’ll live up to like, 250 years old, due to implants. He loves science fiction, and the same, braindead sheep approach he attaches to Christians is the exact same he uses himself, into thinking someone is gonna clone him some day. It’s ridiculous and also funny, especially since the only backup to his claims are whatever science fiction movies came out last week.

Now it’s not because he’s being aggressive or insulting about this…he’s very civil. However, the way he says everything about Christianity is mean, whether he realizes it or not.

I hate eating with him though, he makes all sorts of smacking and slurping noises.

And that’s the closest I can think of is this freak, but otherwise, as I say, when I’m with random people that aren’t friends, we just talk about general water cooler shit.

You all know how I feel about this so I’m going to answer simply.

It sucks when I tell an atheist that I believe in god, usually in response to a question or to halt a torrent of verbal abuse directed at religious or spiritual folks, and then they ask me to elaborate on my beliefs. Then when I elaborate, again, because they asked, not because I had any agenda going into the conversation, they don’t listen and instead pelt me with reasons as to why I’m an idiot. Yet, I still have no right to be upset with them because they are “rational” and I am “irrational.”

Just the other day, I was speaking with an atheist friend of mine. He is a chemist, an actual man of science. He told me there is no proof of god. I told him that I was disappointed to hear him say that because, as a scientist, it is his job to find out everything about the universe. He then amended his statement to say there is no proof of god yet. I would be much more willing to listen and discuss my beliefs with atheists if more held this view, but, in my experience, few atheists do hold this view.

I’ve even heard one of my atheist friends express a view based completely on being atheist, he claims that actually scares me a little. He said that because there is no afterlife, he does not think that any person’s life should be ended prematurely, even if that person was going to die shortly and was in so much pain that life was unbearable. He said that because there is only this life, that we should preserve and extend life as much as possible, even in a case where a person is, say, dying of cancer, cannot be helped and is in so much pain that they cannot remember what they do from day to day.

I would also like to add that I always try and temper my spiritual discussions with the words “I believe.” I do not present my beliefs as fact, but I have rarely met an atheist who affords me the same courtesy.

Okay, so, not a simple answer, but I’ve been without internet so I had to get all the fluthering out in one answer. :P

No more than religious people do. Why are we singling out atheists? I’ve come across religious people who make it clear that atheists are confused, that they’re only an atheist because God didn’t “grant their wishes”, that they need “saving”, that they’re untrustworthy, evil, etc. Incredibly condescending, judgmental, and rude. I don’t think theists are any “better” at being respectful of atheists’ beliefs. Both types of beliefs are about incredibly important and significant aspects of life and the universe and both have a tendency to encroach on others.

People often can’t just “live and let live” when it comes to this kind of thing. I know that sometimes I find it difficult to do this. How can I just be okay with everything religious when religious people try and pass laws against gay marriage for religious reasons? Or how can I be okay with religions that allow honor killings? It’s difficult to just “let it happen” and that’s why sometimes there has to be conflict.

@KatawaGrey But why do you assume that “there is no proof of God” means “there is never going to be any proof of God”? It could also mean “there is no proof of God yet”. It could mean both. Linguistic ambiguity. Why do you assume it only means the first interpretation?

Yeah, I definitely take “there is (present tense) no proof of God” to mean there currently is no known definitive proof of the existence of a god, which to me is a very reasonable statement because if there was, these kinds of arguments would be a lot less common.

Here is another theory, assuming that atheists really are more disrespectful: For the most part, at least in the United States, I’d assume most atheists were probably raised religious (read: Christian). Thus, becoming an atheist required a rejection of the religion they were raised with. That is certainly how it happened for me. I was raised religious and began to realize more and more issues with religious beliefs until I decided they weren’t for me and that maybe I had never believed in the first place. Thus there is sort of the desire for other people to come to the realization you did and the frustration that other people aren’t doing it (think of people becoming religious later in life and the realizations they have. It’s the same sort of thing). And when people see things like the Westboro Baptist Church or thousands of people killed over religious beliefs, etc. it causes resentment and frustration with all the trouble religion (can read: religious people) causes and has caused in centuries past. I’m not saying all atheists are angry, but frustration can certainly play a part in the formation of atheistic beliefs.

I am more or less thinking out loud, so don’t take what I say as publishable.

@Jellie Because anger is often justified. Because when I hear about fathers killing their 4 year olds for ‘perceived homosexuality’ and it was because of their religion, I get angry.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

But the father is just as much as victim as the child. We are all victims of faulty programming, faulty interpretation and it is the conditioning that is at fault most of the time.

Religion is just one area of thousands that can be misconstrued to serve dark purpose.

A man that is raised to believe he is superior to women is at high risk for becoming an abuser, just as a person raised to believe that homosexuality is a sin is more likely to behave violently towards what, they perceive, as “wrong.”

This is why untangling our faulty belief systems is the most important work we can do.

@Coloma Yes, there are certainly many other socializations responsible for violence. And for all of these, we can be angry.

@DominicX: Perhaps I should have been more clear. Often, when someone says “there is no proof of god” they also say “because god does not exist.”

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

I see it as more a cause to be sad than angry.
Anger may motivate change, but compassion is equally important. ;-)

@Coloma Luckily, I am capable of both.

I do not mind it. Thing is it’s really nice to try and debate with someone who’ll never say you are right no matter what arguments you provide. And when thigns get out of hand it’s the cue to just let it be and move on.

For people like myself, religion seems a roadblock to social and scientific progress. I can get a bit amped on the subject. I believe that social progress is worth fighting for, and maybe even raising my voice for.

Big time!

I find that there are a lot of people from every group – whether it has anything to do with religion or not – tend to be very aggressive in expressing their opinions. A lot of people who are very passionate about a topic will fly off the handle when trying to talk it out with someone from the other end of the spectrum. I’ve seen a lot of atheists express their perspective very rudely, but I’ve seen just as many religious people act very similarly.

In my experience there are pushy atheists and there are pushy religious people. Both are obnoxious in their own way, and I have not met anyone who was “converted” by their zealous efforts to transform anyone. But in general, the atheists are generally ruder while most of the religious people at least don’t resort to condescending or crude insults.

Yes, almost always. They know how to dish it, but they can’t take it. I wish they’d listen to the other side, and not always close their ears and just expouse what they believe in.

Lol! That’s almost every debate, period. Even if it’s about cooking methods.

@Blackberry Pretty much lol.

@6rant6: And that is the kind of attitude that makes me afraid to tell many people about my personal beliefs. Believing in some kind of divinity does not mean we avoid progress. In fact, many religious and spiritual folks I know including my mother and myself are in favor of scientific advancements and do our best to help along the evolution of culture and society. And we both believe in God and are very spiritual people.

@MRSHINYSHOES But that can be said about pretty much any opinion holder, can’t it?

Sokath. His eyes uncovered! I have noticed that trend <cough>since I got here<cough cough>. Some of the Shiite Atheites, are as bad as some people of faith, in the manner of debate on beliefs, and they claim to be the more enlightened. If your argument holds water, there is no reason to get pissed. Is that man like that every time he starts to run out of ammo in any discussion? Maybe he is does the sane with all arguments, because he can’t. Some who want to vilify those who are unflinching are themselves as unflinching.

@Mariah True, but it just seems atheists have more of a nasty habit of doing that here on Fluther.

No, I’m nothing like that.

Thanks guys. I love a good, clean, educative discussion on Fluther.

@Jellie

That co-worker goes beyond just rude, from what you said he is clearly an abusive bully, sounds like he’s got some BIG issues. Yikes!

Yes, some of them are no different than Jerry Falwell.

@KatawaGrey If you and I are pursuing the same aims, then I’m not going to argue with you.

If however, you say that stem cell research is wrong because the Bible (or Jesus, or God, or some preacher) says so, then I think you are in the way of progress, and I’m not going to do what I can to change your behavior.

If you tell me that the Bible directs you what’s a priority for governmental spending then we’ve got a problem.

If you organize a project to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and house the homeless, then you can call me and tell me when you need me to give a shift. I’ll be the guy quietly scowling while you lead the prayer.

@6rant6 – I want to fund a project to un-clothe the dressed :-p

@6rant6: Perhaps you shouldn’t assume that all theists/deists are fundamentalist Christian.

Edit to add: You mention being the guy scowling in the corner while someone leads a prayer. Last summer, I was talking with a Christian youth group leader about helping out feed the homeless. I took him aside later and told him that while everyone else was handing out a sandwich and scripture, I would just be handing out a sandwich because I am not Christian. He didn’t seem to care. He was thrilled that someone was serious about doing good works in the community.

@KatawaGrey

Exactly!

To refuse to participate in a spirit of goodwill, whether that’s being a Hari Krishna or a Catholic is self and other defeating.

It’s a form of predudice and stubborness that thwarts an attitude of altruism.

If someone wants to hand me a Daisy in the spirit of goodwill I don’t care if they wear monk robes or a Yarmulke.

Daisys are impartial. ;-)

@KatawaGrey So we agree. If we’re doing good things, we all pull the wagon the same way, and we can ignore whether we do it for the carrots or the oats or the exercise.

@HungryGuy You can call me for a shift in your project, too.