Is the unmarried mistress in an affair with a married man doing something wrong?

Yes.

Legally, no. Morally, yes.

I’m a little disturbed that there’s even a question here. Yes. Catherine owes herself the self respect of not being a homewrecker.

I think no and yes. Morally, there are reasons why it is “wrong” and “not wrong”.

@digitalimpression there are much more disturbing things here. This question is pretty tame. And my question is not about how she’s wronging herself. Is she doing something wrong in relation to the wife? Has she wronged her?

Yes and in the US depending on state laws…penalties vary from life sentence (Michigan), to a fine of $10 (Maryland), to a Class I felony (Wisconsin).

@Cruiser Lol! Ten bucks…...

@Cruiser As in, from my example Catherine would be jailed/fined?

@Jellie I sincerely doubt it. I couldn’t find any recent court cases that ended in jail time let alone an actual fine. I believe the emotional and financial burdens from discovered affairs would exceed the punitive punishment of jail time unless of course an underage person was involved.

She should know better. If he’s cheating on his wife, he may cheat on her down the road if he picks her over the wife. Karma is a bitch.

I have no respect for someone who goes after a married person. None.

@Cruiser Okay now I’m more confused… in your first answer, is the cheating husband penalized or the mistress. And by your second answer do you mean to say that the laws exist but are no longer implemented?

It makes her just as bad as him, she has entered into this relationship knowing that he is already committed to another woman. Do his marriage vows mean nothing to him? I am a believer that if you want to do all this messing around, do it where nobody is going to get hurt and there are no commitments to anyone.
When you take your vows it should be for better of worse and that worse should not equal one of the committed always having a meaningless fling because the fancy takes them. If the marriage is over, then finish what you started then move on to the next when it is!!

A lot of women seem to feel it is their job to keep men on the straight and narrow. Maybe it’s a kind of sisterhood or karmic thing. Maybe it’s a perception of social responsibility.

In much of Europe, this is not a big deal. Only in the prudish United States, with its Puritanical heritage does this become such a major deal with, if @Cruiser is to be believed, actual laws making it a crime. In any case, this is a culturally specific idea about adultery and it is not shared in other parts of the world.

I don’t think that any kind of sexual behavior should be criminalized, except for that with people who can not make an informed and empowered decision about it. I think that the issues of blame are up to the participants and we, as society, have no business passing judgment.

In any case, if the statistics I’ve read are to be believed (and admittedly they are all over the place and difficult to verify), there is an awful lot of this activity going on. But the people who do it also disapprove of it. It’s a bit schizophrenic if you ask me. I don’t remember the exact numbers, but something like 80 to 90 percent of people disapprove of adultery, while perhaps 20 to 50% of people engage in it.

I, personally, know of at least some people who have committed adultery and who are very vociferous about how wrong it is. Perhaps they changed their minds and have reformed their ways, but if so, it seems to me they must hate themselves for having done it. If that is the case, then they are overcompensating. Kind of like the homophobic legislators who fight hard to pass anti-gay legislation and then are caught buggering the pageboys. It isn’t just the Congress critters who do this. I believe it is rampant in our culture.

I believe that morality, above all, must be practical. It does us no good to prohibit and demonize people who do these things. It just builds in more shame and guilt and psychological problems across society. It is counter productive and disabling.

But we live in a culture of blame, so I don’t expect any change. No one is willing to step forward to say the conventional values are wrong. Politically, you might as well commit suicide. Although I wonder what Ron Paul would say. Forget religious officials.

Moral systems that too few people can follow are failures. Nathaniel Hawthorne’s Young Goodman Brown all over again—and that was about Puritan times albeit published in 1835.

I think this question hardly need be asked. The responses will nearly be universal in condemning “Catherine.” It is, literally, a shame. I don’t think that is one bit helpful, and I don’t think it helps society at all. There has to be more useful ways of thinking about this.

She is not doing much for the sanctity of marriage or committed relationships.

How would she feel if she was the married woman?

She is not trustworthy.

@marinelife yes but is she responsible to preserve the sanctity of this marriage? It’s the husband’s job, no? And not some third person. Does she owe this woman to protect her marriage?

While it may be true that Joshua will simply find another woman to cheat with if Catherine refuses him, she should have respect for Joshua’s wife and their agreement to be a monogamous couple.

@Jellie She has an obligation not to be a party to someone else’s relationship breaking up.

Is the mistress doing something wrong?

Erm… you mean aside from screwing around with somebody’s husband?

@Mariah Well, obviously there’s no agreement anymore…...lol.

@wundayatta Spoken like a man who is trying to justify his own actions.

You know, I have wondered this also, @Jellie , and I think that although she is maybe behaving badly, she is not the homewrecker, he is. She is not being unfaithful, he is. There is no indication in the Q as it stands that she is expecting him to leave his marriage and commit to her, she may just be enjoying the relationship as it stands and maintaining her independence. She is under no obligation, legal or otherwise, to maintain the sanctity of someone else’s marriage, and it frankly disrespects his adult right and ability to make choices (even, granted, poor ones). Also, in the Q as stated, he hit on her, not vice versa.

She’s, at the least, being extremely foolish, at the worst degrading herself and showing a complete lack of integrity for herself and all involved.

I think most women that have affairs with married men do so out of being naive and /or some sort of power trip. The odds of a man divorcing his wife for the other woman are very small.

Glad I’ve never been part of that shit storm.

@marinelife that’s very uncalled for.

Plus, you know the married guy is less likely to get clingy or want more out of the relationship due to be outed, lol. Sounds a great deal for the woman that wants to have fun without dealing with clingers.

I asked a similar question once upon a time.

In a bank robbery, we consider the person who drives the getaway car an accessory to the crime, and that person is partly to blame. I think this is similar. She isn’t doing the the primary immoral act (cheating/bank robbing), but she is facilitating it and tacitly condoning it.

@wundayatta, I think you have gone too far with this one. I agree our society’s current relationship system is impractical for most people, but I don’t think the solution is cheating. And I don’t think people who condemn deceit and dishonesty are “puritanical.” There are ways to have other partners that don’t involve lying and harming other people. That is another thread, though.

@JilltheTooth yea that’s what I’m torn between. You worded my dilemma very well. While I believe we are part of a social contract I also believe the husband is the only one that owes the wife anything. Good eye with catching that Joshua is hitting on her, I added that deliberately :)

@Jellie From Wiki…
United States

In the United States, laws vary from state to state. In those states where adultery is still on the statute book (although rarely prosecuted), penalties vary from life sentence (Michigan),[52] to a fine of $10 (Maryland), to a Class I felony (Wisconsin).[53] In the U.S. Military, adultery is a potential court-martial offense.[15] The enforceability of adultery laws in the United States is unclear following Supreme Court decisions since 1965 relating to privacy and sexual intimacy of consenting adults.[54] However, occasional prosecutions do occur.[55]

@marinelife Spoken like a person trying to see the other side instead of jumping on the bandwagon, maybe? I don’t know if he was patently condoning it, but there’s nothing wrong with looking at both sides.

@nikipedia I don’t think that analogy works very well, robbery is illegal, adultery isn’t. So if you’re an accessory to a crime you are to blame. You are legally obliged not to assist someone with robbery. But morally, are you obliged to not have sex with someone who has an implied promise with a third party?

@Jellie : I have been deliberately single for my whole life, and often blamed for the bad behavior of married men. I have thought about this a lot and it really pisses me off. I have never approached a married man, but somehow I have been found to be at fault because I was attractive and friendly. Or simply civil. You’d be amazed at how many men take being civil as an invitation.
Like I said, I think it’s a poor idea in most cases for a woman to have an affair with a married man, but she is not the one doing the serious nasty.

I agree with @nikipedia

An “accessory” to a crime or an affair bears responsibility as well.
Both parties involved are colluding in deception and dishonesty.

If a philandering man or woman is unable to procure an affair partner, there would be no affair, so while the husband is the one who is breaching his marriage contract the other woman is equally guilty of serious misconduct. She is the enabler.

@Jellie, there are a lot of things that are legal, but immoral, and things that are illegal, but moral. I don’t think legal or illegal should factor into a discussion of whether something is right or wrong.

But ok, I don’t think the analogy is the important part. The mistress isn’t the one cheating, but that doesn’t absolve her of all responsibility.

I want to live in a world where we all have a moral responsibility not to deliberately harm other people, even if we haven’t made an explicit contract not to. And the mistress here is knowingly participating in causing harm, so in my book, she’s acting immorally.

Oh, please, @Coloma , the “enabler”? Really? She’s not “enabling” anything, you make it sound like she’s standing on the corner selling drugs to 3rd graders. As much as we’d love to believe that we women are that irresistible, the bald facts are that most of us actually are resistable. Maybe he shouldn’t make the first move, maybe the responsibility lies with the instigator who already has a contractual obligation with someone else.

[mod says:] Also…

@Jellie That’s ok. @marinelife is quite right. But I don’t think that is a bad thing. I am pretty sure that I am reflecting the experience of far more people than most would like to think. I am seeking to understand and reflect upon my own experience. I don’t think I’m a bad person, and most people I hear from say the same thing. I am trying to make my way through life as ethically as I know how without killing myself. Which would be a far worse outcome.

My experience with this issue, I believe, played an important role in getting me to the point where I wanted to die, so I don’t think I’m exaggerating, although, as @marinelife suggested, I could always be rationalizing. A lot of people have problems with rationalizations. I understand that.

@nikipedia: Personally, yes. The rules of right and wrong with respect to adultery don’t work for me. These views are widely held and there is not a chance in hell that they will change any time soon. But I have done what I have done, and if I am to live with that and still consider myself a decent person, then I have to find a way to understand it that does not turn me into a demon. Mistakes, for better or for worse, are not forgivable in my life. I’ve tried to change that, too, but haven’t been able to do so, so I have to change the values or I will hate myself too much. I’ve been there. I don’t like it.

My wife was able to forgive me. That’s great. Forgiving myself is a different thing altogether. It is a delicate thing and being honest about it and fighting for the validity of what I have learned is an important part of the process for me. It isn’t easy because I don’t like being condemned any more than anyone else does.

I felt I had to lie or keep it secret because I didn’t want to lose my wife and I didn’t want to lose my family and yet I was going crazy in my marriage. I believed I was saving my marriage by having an affair. It would make me stable and feel better about myself—enough to have the confidence to advocate for myself within my marriage.

My therapist argued several of the arguments I gave above. In addition, she said there is no point in gratuitously hurting someone by confessing things only to relieve yourself of the burden. You engage in a behavior and you are responsible for any guilt and shame you might feel. Don’t transfer it to pain for another person.

Yes, it would be wonderful if we could have open relationships, but the reality is that it isn’t possible. If you are going to love multiple people, then for most of us, it will happen in secret. And indeed, that’s where it happens for most people who do it. I guarantee that many people out there who think their spouses are being faithful are blissfully unaware of what is really happening. You can not always tell.

I believe that when a lot of people do not follow a system of morality, then the moral system isn’t working. I believe that morality is a practical thing. It must help us live with each other as frictionlessly as possible. When people say one thing and do another, the moral system isn’t working not matter how much people shout from the rooftops that this is the way people should act.

I don’t like pretending to be someone I’m not, but I do it to protect myself. I think a lot of other people do the same thing so as to protect themselves from the “holier-than-thou” crowd. I don’t think shaming people is helpful. In fact, I think it makes things worse.

I can totally agree that infidelity can have serious negative consequences. It can make spouses feel very insecure and angry. It can have health problems. It can take away energy from a spouse and from children.

Of course, it’s not the only thing that does those things. Workaholism and other addictions and mental illnesses and bad personalities can all do the same things. People do not condemn those other things with the same moral fervor that they condemn infidelity.

I think infidelity is an issue that it kind of a fire starter. It raises hugely strong emotions that are based on an emotional logic that is built into us and is designed to help protect us. Secrecy and not getting caught is the only way infidelity is going to work. That has not changed in hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution, I don’t think. Modern rules of morality are not going to change that, and this discussion will be happening thousands of years from now.

@Allie I did my search and didn’t find a similar question. Honest. Plus I mean specifically married people and not relationships.

@JilltheTooth

We’ve been down this path before, so, I am not going to expend too much energy in debate.
Bottom line, affairs do not happen in a vacuum, if the chosen “target” ( the other woman ) does not take the bait, she effectively prevents an affair from unfolding. At least with herself.
Obviously a person desiring to have an affair is going to keep trolling until he/she manages to hook an affair partner.

It takes two to Tango, and while the married person is the one in ultimate violation the affair partner is the “object” that makes the affair possible in the first place.

If a drug dealer approaches me and asks me to sell drugs to 3rd graders and I refuse I am not party to an act of harm.

It’s the old ” if you’re not part of the solution you are part of the problem.”

The affair partner is what makes the affair possible in the first place.

Just say “No!” haha

I’m going to agree with Jill. He took the vows, not her. He’s the scumbag.

My own opinion (as I said in the other thread, but I’ll repeat) blame shouldn’t be placed on the ‘other person.’ He/she has no obligations or responsibilities to take care of the cheater’s spouse. It may indeed be selfish of the ‘other’ to participate in the cheating, but in the end it’s the married individual doing the cheating who should shoulder the blame. (Short answer: I agree with @JilltheTooth)

@Coloma If a drug dealer approaches me and asks me to sell drugs to 3rd graders and I refuse I am not party to an act of harm. You are if you let the problem persist. So would you go tell the authorities what happened? By that logic, would you require the ‘possible mistress’ to go tell the wife what happened?

Of course. I think the bulk of the shame goes to the husband, who has committed himself to a marriage, but the mistress who knowingly enters into a relationship with a married man also bears some responsibility (as well as poor judgement).

@Coloma : in both of my previous posts I stated that I thought she was behaving badly. I still do not think she shares “blame” for his breaching of contract with his partner. Neither you nor I have any right to impose our strictly moral standards on her when her choices break no laws and cause no actual harm to anyone. And before you claim that she’s causing harm to the wife, NO, she’s not, he is.

This should be very cut and dried…no debate needed. Married man hits on single gal. Any self respecting single gal should have shut him down right then and there. End of story. She didn’t. She accepted his overtures and got involved with a married man knowing full well there was at least a spouse involved. She is responsible for her actions and involvement in this affair. No one forced her and any repercussions good or bad IMO she is an equal party to.

@JilltheTooth Yes, because if it’s not her it’s the next woman he comes across. I see your point.

@Allie

Yes, I would. I’m all about truth and honesty, even when it’s uncomfortable.

@JilltheTooth

How do you figure?

She is party to said harm, harm that could not happen without her consent.

Simple math, 1 affair seeker + 1 affair sucker = the sum of an affair, and without each persons consent the said consequences could not unfold.

Both parties are willingly participating in a situation that creates a victim of their liasion.

In order to lie to anyone else we have to lie to ourselves first.

Perhaps in turning down the solicitation I might be party for the affair seeker to pause and reflect on just what the hell they are thinkin.’

@Coloma I agree it is her action that is hurting the wife. That without her the affair, at least this particular affair, wouldn’t exist and the marriage wouldn’t be damaged. But, does she owe it to that woman? The wife is just another person to her.

Yeah, @JilltheTooth, I don’t like this logic of “someone else would have done it” (had the affair). So the person who actually did do it isn’t responsible…because someone else might have been willing?

@Jellie The wife is just another person to her. Does that make it ok to do something that will hurt another person? Shouldn’t we all have respect for each other and try not to hurt others?

@Jellie

I don’t see it that way. The wife is not just another person. I believe we are all one and what we do to harm others harms ourselves equally so.

If the shoe were on the other foot I don;t think the affair partner would wish to be reduced to a ” just another person.” Bah!

@jonsblond What I meant by “just another woman” is that Catherine is not in a relationship of trust with the wife. They have no implied understanding. It is the husband that does have this relationship with the wife so he is under the moral obligation to be faithful. Why is this mistress to blame/responsible for vows made by the husband?

@Jellie

She may not be the engine, but she’s the caboose. All part of the train clicking down the track of dishonor.
Again, without her consent there would be no affair, therefore by consenting, she is assuming responsibility for aiding and abetting in harm to another equally so.

I’m thinking of this from a little different angle. If a single woman hits on a married man is that worse? Interesting question jellie.

@Jellie According to your logic then, all married people are fair game to single people since the single people aren’t under any obligation? Most of the people I know would turn away once they found out a person they are attracted to is married. It’s common courtesy, even if the married person is being a douche to their partner by seeking someone outside the marriage.

@Coloma Look at it like this, it is considered bad only because he is married. If the guy was single this wouldn’t be an issue. It is HIM that is married, he makes the commitment so he takes the blame. Just because she is part of the equation doesn’t automatically make her blameworthy. How does it follow that from consenting to the affair that she takes responsibility when the responsibility shouldn’t be put on her in the first place?

Yes it is not an ideal situation for her to be in but is she really the one ruining a marriage? The marriage is ruined the second the husband tells himself that it is okay for him to cheat. She just happens to be the person he is acting out those feelings with.

@Adirondackwannabe thank you. I do like asking questions that make us really dig deep into ourselves and question why we hold certain values. Glad you’re enjoying it :D

These two assholes (the married guy and the single woman who is willingly involved with a married guy) are both to blame for being total shit-tards. You don’t want to be married? Get a divorce and then screw around. Want to screw around with married people? Well, f*ck you. You’re now the problem too.

@Adirondackwannabe Good question, and I was also wondering: What if the two people honestly feel they belong together? It happens. Should they wait until one is divorced to consumate their love or what?

@Blackberry: “Should they wait until one is divorced to consumate their love or what?”

Yes. But more to the point – if they are convinced that they “belong together”, then they have probably already been a bit unfaithful in other ways for some time.

@Jellie

It’s the old ” two wrongs don’t make a right.”

She’s a big girl ( well, obviously not big on integrity ) and in her consent she automatically assumes part of the equation in allowing the harm to unfold.

@tom_g Yeah I know huh? Either way, you’re screwed.

In a perfect world I’d say she should decline his advances knowing he’s married. But I don’t know all the circumstances of her life. It’s not right, but I don’t know if I’d put the blame on her. When you dig into this question it gets tougher to answer.

The married person is the only one that can be blamed for ruining the relationship. The other woman (or man) is simply guilty of being a selfish ass.

And, if the non-married person does not know the other person is married, their culpability is 0.

@jonsblond no married people are not “fair-game” because marriage is a social arrangement where it is generally agreed that people are to be faithful to each other. So a single woman knowingly hitting on a married guy is disrespectful to the couple. She is acting disgracefully, as she is in being part of the affair in my example, I won’t deny that. It’s “fair game” if the man responds, willing to ignore his marriage. Ignoring common courtesy however doesn’t automatically blame you for the break down of a marriage. It’s one thing to act in an undesirable way and another to be actually responsible for ruining a marriage.

Let’s take it out of the realm of talking about affairs. Then, I think it is easier to see.

I believe that my actions should not deliberately harm others.

Just as I would not hit someone I saw walking down the street, I also would not walk by someone who was being assaulted. I would call the authorities or intervene in some way.

That is how I think of the single person who engages in an affair.

1. They are violating someone else’s contract.

2. They are looking only to their own interests thereby hurting someone else.

@Jellie – What if a friend of yours (let’s call him Chuck) starts stealing things from his neighbors’ houses and providing those things (jewelry, etc) to you. And let’s say that you start accepting them. Is it just Chuck who is involved in something wrong because he is the one doing the stealing? You might think, “well, he’s just going to find someone else to give all of that jewelry to. Why shouldn’t I be the one to take the goods from him?”

In the marriage example, sure the married guy is the one who has entered a contract and an agreement with his wife that he will be faithful. Sure, he is violating that. But the single woman is an accessory to this. She is knowingly receiving goods that belong to someone else and taking part in an immoral deception.

@tom_g if I know that those things are stolen, I am also stealing simply by accepting them, legally and logically.

However a woman in an affair is not cheating or being unfaithful, the husband is.

OK, let’s take it one step further. I am curious, because it is not mentioned in the parameters of the Q, do we know, in 2011, that the married man’s contract includes exclusivity with his wife? That point is not way out there in this day an age, I personally know a number of people who are married, but not exclusive (by mutual design) with their spouses. Is it up to the “other” woman to find out the specifics of the marital contract? Or to perhaps familiarize herself with all of the details of the marriage, like perhaps the embarrassing (to the wife) fact that she cannot or does not want to function sexually within her marriage? This is not totally out of the realm of possibility, and just serves to make my point that I don’t believe it is up to Catherine to have to research every little thing about this. Cam anyone say it is ever so simple as “shame on her?”

@Jellie – The woman in the affair is active in the deception and destruction of a marriage and family. This is not an arrangement that in which all parties are willing participants. Just like in the (admittedly weak) example of jewelry theft, the only reason it is not right to do so (ignore the law for now) is because there is one party that has not agreed to the arrangement: the people who are being robbed.

The wife has no say in this. Two adults are willingly engaged in destroying her marriage and family, but only one of these adults is morally accountable?

Two things are wrong here, the woman’s willing involvement in an illicit affair & her head on the wrong way round if the wife ever finds out, probably with justification.

If a friend robs a bank and offers me stolen money from the robbery and I accept, I am just as guilty as the the original perpetrator of the crime.
By conceding to accept stolen money I am effectively agreeing that the act of stealing is okay, as long as I gain something from it.

That’s all that’s in play in an affair situation, the party that concedes to an affair is just as selfish and self centered as the party soliciting the affair.

@JilltheTooth

Two married people agreeing to an open marriage is not the same as one partner deceiving the other in secret.

The only time an affair partner is truly “innocent” is if they have been deceived themselves by the other party portraying themselves as unmarried.

Yes, we are all responsible for asking the appropriate questions before “committing” to any sort of arrangement in life.

If I fail to do the proper research on an investment opportunity or buying a new car and I lose my shirt or end up with a lemon, well…no one to blame but myself.

We are all responsible for getting our facts straight and asking the hard questions before proceeding with anything.

As someone else pointed out, the marriage was pretty much destroyed as soon as hubby decided to hit on someone else.
(Listening to AC/DC while thinking about this question isn’t a real good combination)

@tom_g The woman is not engaged in destroying the marriage. She is engaged is simply in a relationship. It is the man that comes with the wife that HE is supposed to be faithful to. It is essentially the cheating that is destroying the marriage and it is the man that is cheating on her. You yourself said in an earlier post that “if they are convinced that they “belong together”, then they have probably already been a bit unfaithful in other ways for some time. So the marriage is essentially ruined the minute he intends to cheat on her. The relationship with the other woman is a by-product of that.

@Jellie She is engaging in destroying the marriage by having sex with a married man.

Everyone in society has an obligation to honor the vows of others.

The woman is selfish at the least and despicable at the most (if there are children involved).

@tom_g But how is the marriage automatically “destroyed”? What if the wife forgives him and they move on?

@Jellie – I’m not sure we’re going to agree on this. My claims of this situation go beyond just this particular hypothetical. It’s about moral action, theft, and responsibility. I believe that I understand what you are saying even if I completely disagree.

People are not possessions. Any analogy that defines a person as such is ridiculous.

@Blackberry – As an atheist, I don’t believe that your “sins” are erased by confession. A morally wrong action is morally wrong even if the victim ends up forgiving you.

@marinelife are we really obliged to honour another person’s vows? Am I responsible for safeguarding the contract two other people make between each other? No. We do it to be nice. We do it because we are programmed to want good for other people. Doesn’t automatically make us obliged.

@Blackberry – Also, their actions were consistent with actions people would take in order to destroy a marriage. If the marriage ends up living past this, I still consider the actions completely wrong.

If I try to kill my neighbor, but he lives and forgives me, it doesn’t change the fact that I tried to kill my neighbor.

@tom_g I am truly interested in this stuff. Not cheating, but viewing all possible avenues. Just askin’ questions to get some views.

There really is so far it can go, it’s kind of perplexing lol.

@tom_g Makes sense, because I think most would expect a divorce or separation after hearing their partner cheated.

Whoa, coming in late to this debate but I’ve got to answer this one.

I think it’s interesting how nearly everyone is content to throw as much blame on Catherine as Joshua. The situation stated above is a very bare-bones situation. I think there are many factors in determining how much to blame Catherine is.

Does Catherine know the wife? Is Joshua a habitual cheater? Had they been drinking? Had only Catherine been drinking? Did Catherine have a crush on Joshua which she had previously kept in check? Did Joshua know this and decide to take advantage? Were Joshua and his wife having problems? Has Joshua’s wife cheated on him?

I’m not saying the answers to these questions necessarily remove blame from Catherine, but I think they can tip the scales. For example, if Catherine does know the wife, then I think she is very much in the wrong. If Catherine is friends with the wife, then I think Catherine’s wrong is as great as Joshua’s. If Joshua is a habitual cheater, then Catherine may figure that she’ll be just another notch in the belt and her involvement with this particular married man might be no worse than any other woman’s involvement with him. If they’d been drinking, it doesn’t necessarily excuse her actions, but I think her culpability is lowered ever so slightly. If only she’d been drinking and Joshua took advantage, then I think her culpability goes way down. Then again, in that scenario, getting her drunk enough to sleep with him does border on rape and one may argue that she has no blame at all, but that is for another question. If Joshua decided to take advantage of Catherine having a crush on him, well, I think that heaps more blame on Joshua for picking her, although Catherine is still very guilty as well. If Joshua was contemplating divorce or even if he and his wife were separated, then Catherine may not have felt such a sense of responsibility to keep Joshua honest. If Joshua’s wife had cheated on him, even if Joshua didn’t know this but Catherine did, that just adds a whole other dynamic to the situation that adjusts blame for everyone.

Do I think Catherine is culpable? Yes, yes I do. Is she as culpable as Joshua? Again, it depends entirely on all sorts of other details. I don;t think we can just say, “Yeap, no matter what, she is as much to blame as Joshua, maybe even more.”

@KatawaGrey tough one ain’t it :P

@KatawaGrey – I suppose it’s possible to add details to the situation in order to slightly tip the scales or something. However, this is what I am opposed to:

“For example, if Catherine does know the wife, then I think she is very much in the wrong. If Catherine is friends with the wife, then I think Catherine’s wrong is as great as Joshua’s.”

Do people really think it’s only wrong to participate in immoral and hurtful actions if you happen to know your victim?

“If Joshua is a habitual cheater, then Catherine may figure that she’ll be just another notch in the belt and her involvement with this particular married man might be no worse than any other woman’s involvement with him.”

If a criminal is going to steal anyway, why not be the one to receive the stolen goods? Is this what we’re talking about?

EDIT – I might have jumped too soon on this. Rereading your post again and I may have misrepresented your statements. Correct me if I’m wrong.

I once had a friend ( ex friend now due to her hypocrisy and double standards ) that had an affair with a married man and rationalized it by claiming it wasn’t “that bad” because she didn’t know the wife. lol

Good fucking GAWD…the self deception of people is amazing!

@tom_g: Please read my answer again. You’ll note that I didn’t say that Catherine is blameless, but, yes, I think that things like this can put more or less blame on her. If she doesn’t know the wife, she is still in the wrong, but if she is friends with the wife, then she is not only hurting a marriage, but she is hurting a friend as well. As for your stolen goods comment, I think there is a big difference between enabling a cheater and simply being one of many, yes. Like I said, she’s not blameless, but when the cheating hinges on her and her alone, that is worse than if the cheating simply hinges on someone with a vagina being in the vicinity.

@Coloma: Hm… See, I think it would have been worse if she knew the wife, then again, my friends are important to me and I worry more about hurting them than some people too. GAWD LOL.

@KatawaGrey That’s why I never judge issues involving other people’s relationships. No one can ever know what goes on between people. Never.

@tom_g & @Coloma It does make a difference. Adultery is not like every other crime because it depends on personal relations. Knowing the “victim” in murder doesn’t mitigate the crime in anyway because a person’s death is the result.
However, sleeping with your sister’s husband is wrong because you have a relationship of trust with your sister and she has expectations of you. The husband in this situation is a dick of course but then you as the mistress have betrayed your sister’s trust and expectation.

With a third person, or as I said in another post, “just another woman” it is different because there is no similar relationship of trust and obligation of the mistress to protect the wife.

Catherine is always 100% responsible for her self. The blame doesn’t get divied. Catherine is 100% responsible for her part. Joshua is 100% responsible for his part. Period.

@Jellie

I understand your point, however, I beleive in the big picture, again, adhering to the oneness of all humanity, that sure, on a surface level, it appears to be more “personal”, but, really it is not.

Is poisoning my friends dog any better or any worse than poisoning the dog of a “stranger”?

Either/or…the end result is still the same, I have willfully caused great harm and time, space and proximity are irrevilant IMO.

@KatawaGrey – Ok, I admittedly jumped too soon on that last post. Sorry. I find the post somewhat more reasonable, although I happen to disagree with some of it.

@Jellie – Aside from this adultery hypothetical, do you believe that you have any moral obligation to your fellow citizens or humans? “just another woman”? Really? My ethics are not dependent on me knowing the victim(s) of my potential crimes.

@tom_g Okay your ethics say that you will not have an affair with a married woman period. Okay but then if you end up having an affair with a married woman, yes, people will hold you to your own moral and ethical standard and say you fell short of them. But that is not the same as being blameworthy of destroying a marriage. Moral short coming and blame is very different.

@Jellie, I am incapable of comprehending that last post. Can you elaborate?

I think @SpatzieLover‘s post makes the most sense.

I don’t think it’s as straightforward as condemning Catherine for her behaviour. There are far too many factors at play in a situation like this and of course, it’s very easy to sit back and judge.
The marriage obviously isn’t working if there’s an affair taking place. I’d be more likely to question Catherine’s view of herself and why she would choose to be in a relationship with a man who is clearly emotionally stunted. I say that because a man who chooses to have an affair instead of addressing his troubled relationship with his partner screams emotional immaturity to me.
I also agree with @SpatzieLover‘s comment.

@tom_g Okay, I say that the mistress is not blameworthy because she owes no responsibility to the wife and it is the husband that does.

When I said that it would be different in a relationship of trust that is because in that certain relationships (e.g. sisters) we do owe a responsibility to the wife to not get involved in the affair. So your ethical standards are not changing with different people, the situation is completely different. One is where a trust b/w mistress and wife is betrayed and the other where no such relationship exists and the responsibility lies instead only with the husband.

This is difficult to keep a track of.

@KatawaGrey Of course it makes sense. I’m 100% responsible for my decision to make a bowl of cereal, but I think we’re discussing the myriad moral possibilities.

I actually can’t really grasp entirely what @SpatzieLover is trying to say. Can you explain what you mean @Lover?

@Coloma: Equating cheating with physical harm is ridiculous.

I really didn’t expect such interest in this little old question.

@Jellie Personal responsibility is never divided up. Each person is 100% responsible for their own actions in any situation.

Yes @SpatzieLover & @stardust

Both parties have issues, this is WHY they are “connecting” in the first place.
Water seeks it’s own level. Really, it is all perfect…until the great tidal wave appears! lol

@stardust – I think we can make judgments on the behavior of these two people because we’re defining them and can decide on the details.

@stardust: “The marriage obviously isn’t working if there’s an affair taking place.”

Well, maybe. Sometimes this is the case. Sometimes it isn’t working for one person, and they decide to violate an agreement and stray. If they say, “this isn’t working. I’m out”, and get a divorce, it doesn’t matter what kind of stuff they want to do. However, I am going with the barebones scenario in which the married woman is not aware that her husband and some woman are having an affair.

@Jellie: “Okay, I say that the mistress is not blameworthy because she owes no responsibility to the wife and it is the husband that does.”

I feel that I have a responsibility to act morally and not take part in things that will cause people harm. I am a citizen of a state, a country, and the world. Any ethical system designed to only apply to a certain group of known acquaintances is incompatible with my concept of morality.

@SpatzieLover but we’re not talking about dividing personal responsibility. The question is does any personal responsibility even arise?

@Coloma Lol, I love how you speak like a wise monk. You’re always using clever sayings.

One is always accountable for their own actions. If a person doesn’t realize this simple truth then life will just “keep happening” to them.

@KatawaGrey

Actually it is not.
The pain, stress and anguish of a cheated upon person does cause physical harm as well.
Causing grave emotional harm reflects in the physical, make no mistake about it.

@Coloma Stress can be a killer. Literally. You are correct.

@tom_g but the mistress is not harming the wife. The husband is harming her. How is the mistress harming her simply by being the one that the husband is unfaithful with?

She is on the receiving end of an unfaithful husband’s affections. It is the unfaithfulness of the husband that causes the hurt to the wife. Not the act of the woman reciprocating the husband’s feelings.

My bad…I posted this in the wrong thread before (I’ve been away awhile!). So I decided to chime in, forgive the diatribe:

It’s an issue of social responsibility. The implied effect of the affair is that it causes pain and suffering to a third party. Catherine’s consent to the affair, knowing that a third person would be hurt as a direct result of her acquiescence, makes her a party to the effect.

It takes two to tango when it comes to the affair, and both parties’ actions create a consequence that is harmful to a third party.

In a society that is diverse in culture, morals, beliefs, we are all bound by the letter of the law. The intent of the law is to uphold a common set of moral beliefs, in this case, that marriage and fidelity is both sacred and a legal contract of exclusivity.

By Catherine being a party to violating the moral contract (an ‘accessory’ if you will), her knowledge of her actions and the implied consequences that will result from her actions, make her a party to the dissolution of the contract between the husband and wife.

If we all have differing morals, is it not our responsibility to respect that our morals (or lack thereof) come at the expense of the destruction or demoralization of another? Whether you know that person or not, you exist in the same society, use the same resources (literally in this case), and abide by the same laws.

In America, our moral standards are based on Christian/Deist beliefs. If you don’t believe in those religions, so be it. But our society survives and thrives because people have enough self-respect, and respect for their fellow citizens to respect their morals and beliefs, especially if in not doing so, you cause injury to another citizen.

If you put the shoe on the other foot, meaning, you were the Wife, how would you feel about the mistress? Would you simply say “well, she was just a vessel for my husband to deposit his umm…” you get the picture.

The husband obviously violated his contract by emotionally and physically divesting from his wife, without her knowledge or consent. Is Catherine, knowing that his actions are injurious to the wife, and “lending” herself to that action and result, a party to the demoralization of the wife?

Look at the effects of said action. Look at the cause (two people agreeing to an illicit affair, in spite of the possible consequences). The fact that it is devious, covert, and hidden from the wife, implies that both parties of the affair know it’s wrong. By that argument, would it matter if Catherine and ‘hubby’ did the deed in the husband’s bed, knowing the wife was coming home? Do you think Catherine would be “smarter” than that?

If she didn’t think her actions made her culpable, then, would Catherine be equally ambivalent about notifying the wife ahead of time? How about this: Catherine giving said wife a “courtesy call” that she’ll be bonking her husband in their bed before she gets home, but ‘promises’ to change the sheets when they’re done? How absurd would that be?

Although this article may imply bias (it’s from a recovery site for those who find themselves in the wife’s position), but it is pretty plain to see that because of the actions of two people, the effect is the injury to another person. Check it out and let me know what you think:

http://www.network54.com/Realm/HealingHeart/batinfid.html

In sum: we, as citizens abiding by a common law based on a common set of values/principles, have a human moral obligation to take care of one another. Respecting another’s beliefs, values, and contracts (i.e. marriage), is the foundation for a just society. This would be the case in infidelity (illegal in some states), and any other illicit activity.

I’m now going to load a bong and leave it outside with a lighter at the local park. I’m not responsible if some parent “let’s their kids” experiment with it. And in California, I have a license to use said substance, so I’m not breaking a law; it’s the parent’s fault for not educating their kids about using someone else’s stash…

Preposterous…

@tom_g If the marriage isn’t working for one individual, it’s not working full stop. If one person decides to stray, of course they’re incapable of taking responsibility for their actions/contract of marriage. Whether the married woman is aware or not, I don’t believe the relationship can possibly be a healthy, functioning one with all of that negative energy running through it.
That is in no way a justification for cheating. I do not believe it is a responsible thing by any means by either party.

I think it just comes down to whether or not you feel any moral obligation to strangers.

It’d be sad if the answer were No.

@stardust – I get that. I understand how you can say the relationship isn’t working “full stop”. However, I find that highly-irrelevant to this discussion. If one person decides to cheat rather than divorce and date, then it doesn’t matter to me one bit if the cheater wasn’t all that happy with the marriage. It’s an immoral act that involves (in this hypothetical) extreme deception.

@Jellie: “but the mistress is not harming the wife. The husband is harming her. How is the mistress harming her simply by being the one that the husband is unfaithful with?”

We’re going in circles here. [EDIT] @Nimis just summarized what I was saying with way too many words.

@Coloma Just inquiring, and I know there are levels of stress, but how would the stress from knowledge of a cheating spouse be different than a super stressful day at work? It’s not just cheating stress that kills us, right?

@Blackberry – :) Alright, there is some serious devil’s advocate going on here!

@Blackberry Isn’t betrayal worse than a bad day at work? It has been for me. It can take a lifetime to get over a betrayal. In my experience I can get over a bad day with a cuppa tea out in my yard

@tom_g Haha! Ok, sorry. Maybe I’m going too far into it. I don’t really drink coffee, but I drank a lot this morning…..

I need a thread where I can talk about some deep shit :D

@Blackberry I know you directed that to @Coloma, but I’d love to answer. If someone is stressed at work, it’s usually because the boss or co-workers are being douchebags. The same goes for the cheating husband and mistress. Douchebags. Having a little respect for others will lesson the stress for many.

@Blackberry – What if the husband had been brainwashed by a cult into thinking that his wife wanted him to have an affair. Then he meets the single woman, who happens to be part robot, so she can hardly be held accountable….:)

@tom_g I see your point lol.

@Blackberry

Of course, ALL stress is not healthy, but, emotional pain and stress often cause many, multiple, assaulting events upon the body, and very quickly.

The odds of coming down with a serious illness within 2 years of a death, divorce, etc. is magnified to the 10th power.

I have known many that experienced severe health issues from anorexia to adrenal dysfunction after going through infidelity and divorce situations.

The probability of accidents of all kinds, increases as well when one is preoccupied with emotional duress.

Lying and cheating on someone IS emotional abuse and with that comes a lengthy recovery period for most.

@jonsblond I agree with that.

@Coloma: Personally, I’d rather my spouse cheat on me than, say, poison me, but to each her own!

@KatawaGrey

Pick your poison, it’s all dark brew. LOL

@tom_g Part robot! That explains so much.
Blame falls on the robot-maker for not installing a Moral Compass 2000.

@KatawaGrey You should see this movie and maybe you’d change your mind ;) It’s based off a true story

@Nimis what moral responsibility does the mistress owe the wife in this case? To not ruin the marriage? That does not change the fact that her husband is already past the point of hurting the wife and damaging the marriage. Like I’m saying just because you are part of an equation doesn’t mean you are responsible for the result.

@Coloma: Oh how clever you are! I was thinking literally, as in I’d rather my spouse cheat on me than put arsenic in my food. LOL.

@SpatzieLover: The rules of sexuality have never applied to Kevin Kline

@Jellie: “what moral responsibility does the mistress owe the wife in this case? To not ruin the marriage? That does not change the fact that her husband is already past the point of hurting the wife and damaging the marriage. Like I’m saying just because you are part of an equation doesn’t mean you are responsible for the result.”

Ok. I can’t stay away. Please do me this favor: Describe to me how this would be different from the scenario I presented above in which your friend is stealing jewelry anyway?

Then, describe to me how he could be hurting his wife without you? Don’t say that he would just find someone else. Why? Well, because then the question would apply to that woman. That’s the point. We are responsible for our own actions.

I’m going to say that the man is the one who is actually at fault. He’s the one who made the commitment to a marriage, and he’s the one who’s screwing around. The other woman should still know better, but she’s not the one to blame, ultimately.

I’ll also add that while I see the sense in what I just said, if my husband cheated on me and I found out who the woman was, I’d probably snatch her baldheaded.

@tom_g because it is stealing whether I handle the stolen goods or my friend. We both are equally obliged to not keep something that isn’t ours. Just because he is the actual thief does not mean he owes more of a duty to her not to keep her things. We are both strangers to the victim in possession of her property. It doesn’t matter that he stole it or I did.

However, the husband is married to the woman thereby having promised her or committed to her to stay faithful to her. The mistress is not in the same position as the husband. She is a stranger that is involved with a man willing to cheat on his wife. In your example, the situation is:
1. My friend is in possession of something stolen.
2. I am in possession of someting stolen. Wrongful possession is common in both.

In this case the situation is
1. man cheating on wife
2. woman in a relationship with a man. Not the same as cheating.
The husband and mistress don’t share a common wrong because they don’t share the same relationship with implied terms with the wife.

To answer your second question. He would be hurting her because he is in the mental state where he can cheat on his wife. Where he is not willing to uphold his commitment to her. I’m very sure if the wife finds out that the man no longer feels the obligation to be faithful to her it will hurt her regardless of whether or not there is a mistress involved at the time.

@Jellie If the woman knows the man is married, then she is a party to the cheating and shares the wrong.

@Jellie Just because you are part of the equation doesn’t mean you are responsible for the result.
[in robot voice] Statement….does…not….beep…compute.

Even if you’re not responsible for keeping their marriage together;
you can be responsible (at least partially) for it falling apart.
Related, but two different things.

The moral responsibility is to another human being who lives, breathes and has feelings.

@Nimis Talk about not computing: Even if you’re not responsible for keeping their marriage together; you can be responsible (at least partially) for it falling apart.

How is that?

@Jellie: “To answer your second question. He would be hurting her because he is in the mental state where he can cheat on his wife. Where he is not willing to uphold his commitment to her.”

Great. That’s the dude’s situation, right? He is not happy in his marriage, so he will probably have to file for divorce. It will be painful, but these things happen all the time. People grow apart, etc. I don’t see anything wrong or immoral about this. There is no lying, etc.

For the guy to cheat, he needs an accomplice. In this hypothetical, the accomplice is fully aware that she is one. The justification you appear to be using is that he will just find someone else to cheat with. Try that logic with any other ethical question and see how far you get. I’ve already provided you with the property theft. You merely reject it because it is about property, and are overlooking how this relates to the concept of an accomplice.

If there is not someone willing to help him violate his commitment and contract to his wife, he cannot do this.

@tom_g My first response highlighted my thoughts on the emotional intelligence or lack thereof of the cheater. However, if it were that black and white to begin with, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. When people are wrapped up in emotions, feeling trapped in their lives/marriage (both parties included here), they aren’t necessarily thinking logically. Morals don’t always come first when the chips are down for people.
With all due respect, I do not believe you or I are in any position to judge without having walked in their shoes. There are usually more issues beneath the surface which only those involved in the marriage are aware of.

@tom_g I have not once said he will simply find another accomplice to cheat with nor did I support my argument with that. I really don’t know why you keep pinning that on me.

I am simply saying that the destruction of marriage and hurt to the wife starts with the husband’s intention to be unfaithful. It is completed when he makes his intention, not with sex with his mistress

He is not happy in his marriage, so he will probably have to file for divorce. It will be painful, but these things happen all the time. People grow apart, etc. I don’t see anything wrong or immoral about this. There is no lying, etc.

So in your case just because the man never got the opportunity to cheat on his wife, nothing immoral happened and there is no lying or deceiving.

It is not the act of sex but the husband’s motive/intention that he can and will have sex when the opportunity arises that makes it “infidelity.”

@stardust: “With all due respect, I do not believe you or I are in any position to judge without having walked in their shoes.”

Right. You did mention that you felt it was all beyond judgment of any kind. But since we’re the creators of this little hypothetical, it’s entirely possible to know everything we need to know about it. Real life gets a bit gray and tricky, but we should at least be able to make a clear statement about this little hypothetical so that we can possibly tease out the important elements that are relevant.

And immoral acts by depressed people are immoral acts in my opinion. Sure, we discuss why we don’t want to poke them with sticks because they are already confused and depressed (or on drugs or whatever). But this doesn’t change the morality or immorality of an act.

@Jellie Having a responsibility isn’t necessarily the same thing as being responsible for something.

A parent has a responsibility to watch out for their kid.
If a random person runs over the kid, they are responsible for their actions and their part of the outcome.

You could say that one has a responsibility to not run over other people, literally or metaphorically.

@tom_g No, of course it doesn’t. Mind you, I do feel you’re picking and choosing from what I and others say to suit your own stance on this issue. I did not mention it was “all beyond judgement of any kind”, nor did I mention anything about depressed individuals and the like.
I’m acutely aware that each person has their own issues to deal with and if people didn’t take responsibility for their actions, society would be in a constant state of chaos.
Ultimately, I do not believe I would cheat on a partner nor would I have an affair with a married man, but I’m not going to judge based on a limited amount of details.

@Jellie – Sorry if I attributed a statement incorrectly. I misunderstood. (regarding accomplice).

@Jellie: “So in your case just because the man never got the opportunity to cheat on his wife, nothing immoral happened and there is no lying or deceiving.”

No, that is the complete opposite of what I am saying. I’m saying that 1 person is not being honest here – the husband. This entire discussion, however, is going on so long because I happen to be of the opinion that when you add the accomplice (the woman who is willing to help the man violate his marriage contract and agreement with his wife), you add an accomplice. That’s all I am saying.

No affair = either a) he files for divorce, so nobody is at fault here, or b) he lies and deceives his wife about his happiness in the marriage, so one person is at fault.

If there is an affair = there are 2 people at fault.

@stardust: “Mind you, I do feel you’re picking and choosing from what I and others say to suit your own stance on this issue.”

Bring it. :)

No seriously, that’s the last damn thing I am intending to do. If I don’t get something, please point it out. You may have noticed that I am not one to shy away from retracting statements and apologizing if I have misunderstood.

@Nimis then “having a responsibility” means moral obligation and “being responsible for” means being the chemical/physical (etc) reason of an event. The latter is not the same thing as moral obligation as you point out and it is exactly what I am saying when I say just because you are part of bringing about an action doesn’t mean you are to blame for it.

Most definitely. I am a fan of yours @tom_g :)
I merely feel it’s more complex than moral versus immoral. It leaves too much room for judgement imo.

Humans make errors, mistakes, experience poor judgment, but, consequences are consequences.

Scott Peck defines “evil” in his book ” People of the lie, the hope for healing human evil ” as not an absence of “sin” or mistake, but in the refusal of accountability.

To error is human, to deny error is “evil.”

Obviously all the accountability in the world won’t put the Humpty Dumpty of broken trust back together again, but, without it, it simply heaps insult onto injury.

@tom_g I was about to type a response but then I realized we really are going round in circles because I was going to type the same thing for the 10th time. Agreeing to disagree here.

But yea personally I would never be involved with a married man. Those people have serious issues and probably won’t treat me right either. And also, I am no one’s “on-the-side” girl! Starring role or nothing!

Very late full disclosure: I have a couple of personal experiences that were critical in the formation of my opinion on the matter:

1. My father cheated on my mother for a full year before leaving when I was 12. The entire time he was cheating, he was practically non-existent. The woman was fully-aware that she was involved with a married man who had 2 kids.

2. I was involved in a very serious relationship when I was younger and was put through some serious ‘tests’ in which I nearly cheated. It was a dark time for me, and I learned a lot about myself and what I thought about commitment to another human being.

Some might claim that this may be clouding my opinion on this issue because of an emotional connection I have to it. I don’t think so, although they may be partly right.

There are explicit and implicit responsibilities.
Whether or not it’s been put in writing or agreed upon verbally,
you are always responsible for how your actions affect another person.

I think it’s wrong to say that this woman is not being “unfaithful” to this guy’s wife or not the one messing this marriage up. She’s actually doing worse, enabling a guy to be unfaithful and execute infidelity. Without her, this guy could not be unfaithful to his wife. And even if he did with other women, that’s not her concern. If she actually thinks better her than other women, then she’s more despicable in my view.

They share equal blame now, smearing crap on the institution of marriage.

Has anyone here actually had an affair? Reguardless of the moral stance, have you been in either position where you have been cheated on or been the cheater?

@BeccaBoo That sounds like a question for a separate thread not derailing this one.

@marinelife Maybe, but I am just wondering how many people on here are talking from experience? I have been on both sides, I cheated and was cheated on…..the old chestnut what goes around…....

@BeccaBoo

Yep, I divorced my ex husband or 21 years almost 9 years ago for his lengthy deceptions and have had several close friends who went through the hell of broken relationships with a deceptive partner.

I am far beyond my healing and I am also proud to say that I have also had 3 different partners of friends come on to me over the years and I told them all to fuck off, and, also told my friends whom were already contemplating break ups and divorce for many reasons.

The look on these mens faces were priceless when I told them they picked the wrong girl to proposistion. haha

One came onto me while his girl friend ( my friend ) was sleeping in another room, another when his live in girl friend was out of town, and another, who was my next door neighbor whom I was close friends with his wife.

Infact, he tried to blame me for telling his wife, she was waking up to other unsavory acts on his behalf and my friend just laughed and told him he was giving me waay too much credit. lol

If you’re gonna play with fire be prepared to get burned and if a married or otherwise involved man starts sniffing around my doorstep he’s gonna get far more than he’s bargained for. ;-)

@Coloma What about the uninvolved men (wink)?

@Coloma See all makes more sense when you hear someone who knows what they are talking about! Its ok to put ideas and have opinions, but life is not always that easy.

Good on you for sharing.

@Blackberry Your priceless ;-)

@BeccaBoo

I’ve always been an honest type, sure, I’ve told a few little white lies, I’d be lying to claim otherwise, but nothing life altering or harmful to others. My experiences and my ‘journey’ has only solidified my commitment to total transparency.

@Blackberry
Burning beds are great as long as they contain highly combustible honesty! lol

[mod says] This is our Question of the Day!

@Coloma Lol what the…..never heard that one before.

It takes 2 to tango. They both share blame.

Does Joshua have strange dreams each night about climbing to the top of a maze while fighting off hoards of sheep?

@Jellie It is wrong. Does it matter who was wronged? No. But just to entertain the question… she is wronging herself, she is wronging the husband, and she is wronging the wife. There is no right in the equation.

No matter who you are, you should live by “DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.”

Going by that, yes, she’s guilty.

Where is the harm? How do we compare the harms? What is the harm to the wife if she never misses anything in her relationship? How do we decide who to hurt when someone has to be hurt? How do we decide when to do what we want, and when to not do it because it may hurt someone else?

Is the woman doing the wife any favors by not getting involved with the wife’s husband? Would it be better if the wife finds out more about who her husband is? Is the woman having serious problems with the husband but is unable to cut it off with him?

I could think of a hundred questions to ask to help figure out what the harm is to whom and what the benefit is to whom. However, I don’t think any of that matters because for most people in our society the facts of the case and the story of the individuals does not matter, except in very extreme circumstances.

The woman is wrong. Bad. Evil if she agrees to fuck the husband. Somehow, she owes the wife something—not exactly sure what, but clearly it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if it would benefit the wife for the husband to fuck the other woman, or if it would benefit the husband more than it would hurt the wife, or if it would benefit both the husband and the other woman more than it would hurt the wife; it’s wrong.

This, it seems to me, is the prevailing view of our culture and of the Judeo-Christian ethos. It looks past facts and establishes an absolute morality regardless of the facts of a case. Regardless of harm or benefit.

None of us can know what is going on inside people’s heads and none of us can predict the future. No one can know how the balance will come out over the years. I wonder what @Coloma would say about the benefit of her husband’s infidelity. It seems to me she has learned some crucial and formative lessons from the experience. Would you rather it hadn’t happened, @Coloma? Would you rather he had stayed faithful and you relationship would have continued for a while longer—perhaps even still be continuing now if you did not have that event to precipitate your divorce? Would you have been happier that way?

You know, I’ve been fired a number of times. You would think that being fired; losing a job and income would have hurt me, and it did. But I was also desperately unhappy in those situations and being fired enabled me to vastly improve my life.

If everyone stopped having affairs, then perhaps people would end up staying in perfectly miserable relationships for decades. The affairs may precipitate a huge benefit for the life of the person who has been cheated on. None of us can know that.

People have a habit of staying in miserable situations because it is hard to make change. Sometimes I think that people have affairs in order to get caught so they can be forced to make a change. I’m sure people will judge such weak-willed folks to be poor specimens of humanity, but I bet almost every one of us has been in a situation like that.

So many of you are so sure. You know you know the harm. Maybe you’ve experienced it yourself. I know several people on this question have either been cheated on, or have cheated or both. I have been a cheater, and I have been cheated on. I know the pain. But I also know the benefit. I know I have learned a lot from being cheated on and from cheating.

Do I want to hurt anyone? Of course not! Do I want to be hurt? Of course not! Am I as strong as I should be in breaking off relationships so I can be free to get involved with others? No way! I’m weak. I’m slimy. But I am not without morals.

I think people judge far too quickly and without really thinking through the consequences of their judgements and their behavior. I don’t think we spend enough time trying to understand why others make the choices they do. Most especially on this particular issue.

I say that, and I will continue to say that, and I don’t believe many people will ever agree with me. I’m sure people will condemn me or judge me and find me wanting because of my behavior and my point of view. All I know is that I will not change my view of the complexity of this issue, and I don’t think I will ever regret my behavior, even though I have hurt people I love.

I have also been hurt. And I don’t think there is any balance sheet in the world that can compare hurts. I don’t think any of us can know for sure who should sacrifice for anyone else. I think the harm of self-sacrifice can be much more than anyone knows, but I also don’t think anyone cares when they have made an arch judgment.

We can not compare hurts. We can not judge—not on any principled way, I don’t think. There are always too many unknown factors for anyone to understand why people make the choices they do. Yet I know for sure that will never stop anyone from leaping to judgment. It doesn’t matter how many novels you’ve read or how many people you know who have been in these situations—people will always leap to judge without really understanding the situation.

@wundayatta

No, it was a great growth and expansion and I have no regrets, but, allowing others the freedom to make their own choices is where it’s at.

Honesty is about allowing choice, and while we may grow through hardship I still think it best to put all your cards on the table.

Would I have preferred honesty to the shit storm of awakening that my partner was not who he ALLOWED me to believe he was? Yes!

I might have made very different choices which would have altered my present reality, such as choosing to return to the work force sooner, not “investing” MY money with him, etc.

Sorry, try as you will to justify betrayal and dishonest conduct it’s a weak argument, one meant to “protect’ the cheaters “supply” options.

Healthy, MATURE people do not play mind games with those they CLAIM to love.

Big boys and girls weigh their options and exit their relationships with INTEGRITY instead of mind fucking others because they are too cowardly to make a choice and live with the consequences.

@wundayatta, I agree with you that cheating is not black and white. Sometimes there are situations where cheating is the lesser of two evils. But that is not the same as saying it is without harm.

I don’t think she can be blamed because she doesn’t owe anything to the wife being cheated on, however if I were Catherine myself I would feel very guilty because I know that I’m involved in a situation that is causing someone else distress.

I think she’s wrong in that it takes two people to have an affair, but she can’t be held accountable because it’s not up to her to keep the monogamous relationship (rather than her own self-interest), it can’t really be assumed that she’s malicious, only rather inconsiderate.

As she is knowing in the relationship then yes, she’s partly to blame as is the cheating husband as is the wife for neglecting certain needs that caused the cheater to stray. But typically, lies abound within these types of relationships and if the ‘other’ woman had no idea that the man was married (there would be no reason to check if he lied) then no, she would be just as much a victim as the wife.

The “other” woman is usually the one accused of being the homewrecker. The man usually comes off less guilty because he is a man and therefore cannot help himself. I think men have brains that are capable of overriding their “biological imperative” to spread their seed, so therefore are just as guilty as the woman.

That said, I don’t think anyone cheats if they are happy and content in their relationship. If all is well at home, you probably won’t be out and about in the first place and even if you were for whatever reason, would not give in to temptation because life with your mate is good.

If you are unhappy at home, then the question is, should you have a secret affair or immediately file for divorce? I personally think an affair is probably the better choice because you may find that what is waiting at home is much preferable to what you are finding out there. So you keep your mouth shut, go home and be thankful for what you have.

Life is never simple.

Secrets destroy intimacy.

Personally, I could never cheat, walk in the door and pretend that I just had a regular day as if nothing was going on.

I don’t know how people can live like that, I’d spontaneously combust trying to conceal an affair.

You’d just have to keep building on lie after lie.

Far too heavy of a psychic burden for me.

@Coloma: “I don’t know how people can live like that”

My father is a narcissist. He seemed to have no problem doing this. His “mistress” (now wife) solved her ethical dilemma by “finding god” soon after she had a hand in destroying my family. She’s a fundamentalist Christian now.

@tom_g

Excellent point! Yes, my ex was a raging malignant Narcissist too.
I think most people are not aware that the vast majority of cheaters have serious personality disorders underlying their cheatin’ ways.

Knowledge is power isn’t it? ;-)

@wundayatta “What is the harm to the wife if she never misses anything in her relationship?”

She is missing something. She is missing her husband’s thinking and energy focused on supporting and building their relationship. She is being robbed.

It doesn’t matter if the cheating would “benefit” the husband. The husband has promised fidelity and honesty as part of his marriage vows. Therefore, he has no rights to outside benefits. He has the choice of continuing in his marriage or opting out of his marriage, but not the choice of keeping all of the benefits of marriage while getting some on the side.

“Somehow she owes the wife something”

What she owes something to is to her code of honor, which (we hope) says do not harm another by your actions. By not recognizing and honoring a legal, established relationship, she is violating her own code of honor. Why? Just to gratify herself sexually.

I’d add as well, that it is delusional to believe that one can cheat or be cheated on and not experience all sorts of negative psychic energies squeezing out of the cracks.

Cheaters are NOTORIOUS for their projections and transferrring their guilt and shame onto their partners.

My ex was always saying things to me about ME cheating, and it would baffle me, until I understood the nature of projection, especially how common it is in the more disordered personalities.

Cheaters HAVE to find a way to purge their stuff, even if it is out of their conscious awareness. Picking fights, blaming and being highly critical of the partner, accusing the innocent partner of having or wanting to have an affair of their own.

I remember once when I told my ex I would be traveling for work with my bosses son, he said ” Why are you going with so & so, do YOU want to get fucked in a hotel room?” !!!!!!!

I was mystified and speechless, until I became aware that it was HE who was getting fucked in hotel rooms! hahaha

Sooo, make no mistake about it, the ramifications of screwed up cheating personalities have far reaching consequences, if you know what you are hearing and looking for.

There is NO such thing as a quickie affair without some serious radioactive fallout that will poison a relationship in more ways than one could ever imagine!

I could never figure out, ( until I did, lol ) WHY my ex would come up with the most off the wall accusations and paranoid projections.

Anyone that thinks this sort of thing can be swept under the rug never to surface is as delusional as the cheater themselves.

I used to work with a girl who said to us “If I fool around with a married man, I’m not at fault. I didn’t take the vows, he did. They’re not my vows, they’re his.”

I think this topic is one where people feel very strongly because it’s got a lot of emotions tied into it. People who have been cheated on feel like victims, and may be angry, and rightly so. Cheaters will justify their cheating, and they may have good reasons why they cheated. I think it’s hard to judge someone else’s relationship, as @tinyfaery said, we will never know what goes on behind closed doors. A relationship might look like nirvana,and be a living hell for those in it. If people are stuck in a living hell and don’t get a divorce, they may have their own reasons for staying together, again, we can’t judge or criticize, because only they know what they are going through and what they are willing to tolerate to stay together.