It's not class warfare, it's Christianity?

@CaptainHarley: “Can anyone prove to me that this is true?”

Prove to you that what is true? You might want to define the scope of this question. Is this a discussion about biblical interpretation?

Just more ego tricks…oh “Lord!”

The liberals and Democrats are just trying to speak the language of the Republican Christian base. Michael Moore has done it for a long time, tried to appeal to Christians. Moore is a church going Catholic.

The difference is that the liberals who quote the Bible aren’t actually trying to establish Biblical law as the basis for the US government.

Christians are labeled…but when a liberal appeals to Jesus

The question implies that liberals cannot be Christians, or that only conservatives are “real” Christians.

It also takes the very common conservative view that criticizing some conservative is an attack on Christianity or religion.

I’m guessing that people are trying to find commonalities. They relate biblical passages to other ideas they are trying to flog. It’s understandable when people want to relate ideas to things they think others will understand. Obviously it doesn’t work with everyone.

Whether it is true or not is irrelevant. The only thing that matters with rhetorical techniques is whether they work. Republicans lie about all kinds of things and the lies work. In my experience, whoever lies first wins most of the hearts and minds. Few people pay attention to the counter-attacks.

In this case, it’s kind of useless for the liberals to try to get the bible on their side, since the conservatives already won that battle. There is no longer any place for a compassionate vision of Christianity in contemporary politics. I know that many liberals want to say that that’s not their vision or version of Christianity, but they fail to realize they have already lost. If they want compassion, they need a new religion.

Better yet, in my opinion, is to give up on Christianity. Not that that will happen since people are attached to what they grew up with. So, business as usual. Republicans walking around smiting everyone with baseballs bats and bashing their brains to the floor while liberals walk around with nets trying to keep everyone from being hurt.

You know, I used to be sympathetic to the communists when I was young. They were pretty radical in their support of the working people. Since then, things have gotten too nice for any poorer people to try to organize for their own good. Maybe with the economy as bad as it is, poor people will organize and go after the rich. Except, no. Christianity will keep them on the straight and narrow. Poor people should be nice to their oppressors and hope for a few crumbs.

Pah! Why should I care? I’m doing all right. If poor people want to stay poor, what’s it to me? I’ll tell you what it is. A rising tide raises all boats. A sinking tide sinks us all.

It’s not the fact that they are quoting, it’s what they’re quoting.

Republican: “You must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.”

Liberal: “Love thy neighbor as thyself”

One is a message of condemnation, the other is a message of “Yes, the poor ugly people deserve to see a doctor when they’re sick, too.”

Personally, I’d prefer it if all politicians would stay away from religious literature in general, but when you’re speaking to the masses who live their life according to a poorly edited 1500 year old fiction novel, sometimes you have to play dirty.

I’ve often wondered what the apostle Paul would think of the Tea Party and our current crop of anti-government conservatives. There must have been similar grumbling among Christians living in Rome that prompted him to write this in Romans 13:

“Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves…For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

“This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.”

This was, of course, long before Rome had a nominally Christian leader, yet Paul is saying that even this pagan government is acting as God’s servant, and by His authority, for the good of the people. The Romans instituted one of the first government welfare systems, channeling taxes collected from the wealthy toward the empire’s poor. I don’t hear Paul saying, “you should ungrudgingly support the Roman armies that keep you safe, but by all means raise hell when they try to give your tax money to the poor”.

I’m certainly no Biblical scholar and perhaps there ”... is no forced governmental altruism mandated in the Bible” as the author of the article you link to states, but I believe there is a scriptural basis for paying your taxes and there’s no discussion about whether the tax rates are fair, or whether or not you agree with the way the money is spent.

Romans 13 1–7 (KJV)

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

In Romans, St. Paul says you are supposed to pay your taxes. If the Congress of the United State legislates taxes in a way that is done in accordance with our own laws and the Constitution, then there seems to be scriptural support for Christians paying those taxes whether they agree or not.

Edit: Damn you @thorninmud, I spent so much time composing my answer, in textedit, by the time I pasted it in you had beaten me to it!!

@lillycoyote This is where you’re supposed to turn the other cheek ;)

@thorninmud Or where I say “two great minds with but a single thought!” And even though I am an unapologetic and unrepentant apostate, something about damning someone for beating me to quoting the same passage of scripture just seems wrong somehow. Consider my cheek turned. :-)

I believe she is not trying to reference Christianity as what each individual person holds to be a “true” Christian, but rather Christianity as an institution, which has long held beliefs over the divine goodness of tithes and social welfare.

Can I prove this? Prove is a difficult word. I could write a paper over the course of a semester, and find much evidence for this theory. But would you, personally, accept it as proof? I don’t know; I cannot make anyone think anything.

The article implies that forcing people to pay taxes is not truly a Christian act since it’s not voluntary, it’s forced compassion of sorts. Yet Jesus said, give unto Uncle Sam, what is Uncle Sam’s. And my opinion is God is the ultimate tax man there is. You declare and pay with good acts and get life in return and a heavenly retirement package.

Actually, according to Christians, good acts don’t get you into heaven. That’s a major heresy if I’m not mistaken. You need faith in the Jesus to get to heaven. Hitler could be in heaven right now if he converted on his death bed.

“Submit to authority” is one message in the Bible. “Love your neighbor” is another. They are both valid, but they are not related to one another, such that you could love your neighbor by submitting to authority. You’re supposed to get out there and do it yourself.

Hmm, Matthew 22:17, 21 comes to mind

Wow! I am truly awed that conservatives finally found a way to use the Bible to justify paying no taxes! Impressive. How can people who pretend to hold this text sacred debase and abuse it for their own purposes?

LMAO @SuperMouse

@CaptainHarley it doesn’t make me even crack a smile. It is simply depressing.

@Qingu you said:

Actually, according to Christians, good acts don’t get you into heaven. That’s a major heresy if I’m not mistaken. You need faith in the Jesus to get to heaven. Hitler could be in heaven right now if he converted on his death bed.

As a matter of fact, you are mistaken. That’s not exactly true. Though there are certain Christians and denominations and theologies that are very hard line when it comes to salvation by faith and faith alone, the Faith vs. Works debate among Christians has a reasonably long and complicated history and it is not as simple or simple minded as you seem to believe it is.

Here’s one discussion of the subject

Here’s another discussion

Here’s the Catholic take on faith vs. works

I would advise or at least caution you against making sweeping pronouncements about what all Christians do or don’t believe and what is considered “heresy” without a more solid understanding of the history and theology of Christianity.

I’m not a Christian. I have no particular axe to grind here. I just like the truth and for complicated things and complex ideas with complex histories to be given their due.

It is neither Christianity nor class warfare. I guess “class warfare” is the new rallying cry against taxing the rich. Sounds like something from fox news.

To me any politician who uses Christianity as ammo, is not doing a Christian deed anyhow. I feel a Christian politician knows, if they had actually read the Bible, is to work and do any deed from the heart, and that is all. Referencing doesn’t even need to be done when it’s from the heart. For me it’s a scheme to pull the “quote from the bible” card because they are aiming at Christians. You get much more audience and fairness when what you’re talking about is honest, black and white (factually sound), and has passion (emotionally sound). Well, that’s how a politician gets to my vote.

@dreamwolf

Good answer! : )