Where do some religious people get the notion that they know things about their god?

They either get it from their respective holy books and/or cultural beliefs. The holy books go a long way in explaining God’s motives/reasons for certain things sometimes so it’s not particularly surprising when people say that.

It’s written down so it must be true.

Everything in the Bible is true, didn’t you know? (j/k)

When you’ll become a theist you’ll understand this. As for the rest remember if you don’t believe in anything you again speculate.

Through revelation. People develop through prayer an intimate relationship with their god. Prayer and meditation, combined with a specific brain function that gives us the feeling of revelation will then install a firm belief in understanding god’s way of thinking.

Here is an interesting link to a scientist’s page that thinks he can explain why these revelations happen so often on a mountain.

I have no idea :-/ I just wish they’d keep it to themselves though………..

I feel like it’s just a coping mechanism. Instead of admitting that the information they have learned about their god(s) may be tainted with the ways humans interpret and twist things.
This wouldn’t mean their god(s) was wrong, just that the info they got about them from humans was wrong. But no, that can’t even be a possibility. The ones that really upset me are when there are obvious self-conflicting lines in the same statement.

“God, etc, knows everything, he just gave us freewill, so he/she can’t predict what we will do.”
“So that means he/she doesn’t know everything, which means they aren’t omniscient.”

It’s one or the other. If you know everything, then you know the past, the future, everything.
Satan, etc, is not responsible for any sin, since when he was created, he was created with his creator knowing what he would do, knowing what he would become. To say otherwise means that the creator didn’t know. And that doesn’t make for a “perfect” god.

Or maybe, just maybe . . . you were taught wrong.
I’ll say it again, it doesn’t mean your god is wrong, it just means humans are wrong.
If you can’t admit that, then I guess humans have become all knowing as well.

Delusion brings comfort to the minds of the masses.
I think it might have been Lincoln who said that, or was it Chevy Chase? ;¬}

@Scooby

Does that include Muslims, or are we only talking about Christians now?

Interesting to me that one of the posters above who often decries sarcasm in others on various threads should indulge in it on this one. Nice. Geez.

@JilltheTooth

If you mean me, that’s not sarcasm, but a very legitimate question.

Not you, @CaptainHarley , yours is a legitimate Q, very often on Fluther the atheists lump all theists together meaning Christians…

There is only one very real spiritual God who has, for some time now, been translating himself into the human condition. Some people are indeed aware of this spiritual God—an awareness one may develop only by practice of spiritual disciplines.

As when one practices lifting weights, and becomes more proficient and more defined by his practice.

@JilltheTooth

Ok, just wondered. : )

Ah, more Christian bashing. Thanks so much!

@filmfann

Dude! WTF, over??

To respond to @CaptainHarley comment I would include all religions. But, I admit that my answer comes directly from what my Christian former college roommate said to me a few years ago when religion came up. She was dead serious, not sarcastic (not sure if @JilltheTooth was referring to my remark as one of the sarcastic ones). She obviously is one of the types of Christians who thinks the bible is the exact word of God written down word for word. I realize not all Christians believe that about the bible. However, probably all the religious people of the Abrahamic religions, since they rely on a book supposedly written by the word of God, do believe that because it is written it is so. Also, Buddhists look to the writngs of Buddha. I don’t know about other religions.

Interestingly in Judaism There is the Oral Torah which eventually was written down.

If I were to expand my answer I would say most religious people find logic and comfort in what is taught to them regarding religion, for some it is fear, but mostly I would say the logic helps create their world view, and so knowing God is like knowing themselves, their world construct and how they fit into it.

Faith that what it says in the Bible is true.

Being an athiest, I think it must be mass hypnosis or something. I admit that I have no idea why we are here, who put us here or where we are going after death, but it gives me great comfort to know that no one else knows, either!

Because the brain appears to process religious and empirical propositions in the same way.

In short, when religious people offer a scriptural or religious explanation, they actually believe that they are offering factual evidence in support of their assertions.

I would venture to suggest that this is a universal phenomenon of consciousness rather than a strictly religious one.

How do I know? Jesus tells me so.

So much for theologic discussion.

@CaptainHarley

No I’m not just talking about Christians, I’m talking about every individual religious champion who believes that by bombarding me with their religious values & beliefs that I’m going to take a blind bit of notice of them, even if they’re going blue in the face with excitement & gesticulating in all manner expressive orientations while pushing themselves & what THEY believe in. I don’t buy any of it :-/ I just wish they ALL just keep it to themselves….. ALL!….............. Not just christians.

@JilltheTooth

I think we’re all guilty of that in one form or another, don’t you? :-/

@Scooby

I was not among those who come on here to prosylitize. Am I just suppose to shut up while my beliefs are slandered?

Reading stories from sacred writings, listening to teachings, observing the world and self-interpretation…these are all sources where some of the faithful got their ideas on how their God behaves or make decisions. That answers Where? As to Why?, no one would have the definitive answer because there is no proof a God, the way he or she is being interpreted for thousands of years exist. And no one can prove he or she does not exist either.

So in order for these statements not to strike a chord with you, next time you hear one, think, hey, they could be right for all I know. And maybe it’s not the religious connotation that irks you, could it be that these people are showing behaviour you would disagree with anyway whether they refer to their God or not?

@CaptainHarley

Where are your beliefs being attacked in the question above? :-/ I took it as a general question not specifically aimed at any particular sect….
BTW I never said you did.

@CaptainHarley – I don’t believe that your beliefs have been ‘slandered’ on this thread. Indeed, while the question may be loaded in that it seems to presuppose an atheist, or at least critical, mindset, it verbalises a genuine epistemological problem.

How do theists claim to know anything about their god? Where is the rationale for the beliefs?

This was a serious question. When people said things like this, I usually just assumed I knew why they did it, so I was asking the question to hear it from religious people.

@Blackberry It was seriously generalizing

@SpatzieLover But that’s why I said “some”. Of course I wouldn’t think every religious person thinks this. I know religious people that believe in god simply because of the beauty and complexity of the universe, to which they conclude they could never understand such an entity due to their limited existence.

So I was asking specifically about the individuals that may say “This is god’s plan because…”

Why don’t the religious people answer the question? Instead of focusing on what the athiests here are theorizing. Or, what we athiests have heard.

@JLeslie The tone for this question was set ^up above with the sarcasm

@SpatzieLover It may be possible that we might ask a separate question on it? It’s simply difficult for me to take someone seriously who says things like this. It just is. Everyone feels this way about something. If someone was trying to justify cheating on their spouse, most people might be like “Is this guy serious right now…..?” Know what I mean?

It doesn’t mean I think the people that say this are stupid, I just want the most genuine asnwer. I think @mazingerz88 had a great answer and that makes a lot of sense.

@SpatzieLover I didn’t read it that way. I thought the OP really wanted to know. I’m just curious, how could have it been worded better? I guess he could have specifically said he is serious and prefers people who aren’t religious not answer.

@Blackberry Have you seen this study?

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/12/01/0908374106.full.pdf+html

@AdamF I’ve seen something similar (probably was the same study) long ago, although I’m reading so much stuff now I’ll have to wait to get to that lol. There’s so much information around.

I believe many people, like George W, use(d) their religion as an way to judge and control people without having to back up their motives (“It’s God’s work!”). Others, like Gandhi, were less devious. It doesn’t really matter to me if someone’s message was from “God”, or not. What matters to me, is if that message lines up with the most basic of Human Rights. Buddha himself shunned talk of religion, and preferred instead to focus on the Social-Economic needs of the people.

Why do I believe that there is something higher than me? I experienced It.

I’ve tried to explain before, but language simply can not capture the scope of feelings associated with a ‘Divine Encounter’. The information we are fed throughout our lives polarizes us one way or the other, to seemingly irreconcilable extremes. It’s good for the institution for us to be squabbling over our differences. It makes it easier to use our religions, or lack there of, to control our choices and confuse our politics.

By over-defining the meaning of a belief into a religion or law, we rule out other possible Spiritual/physical Truths. Even in our language- words have been stigmatized to discredit those who use them, like ‘pious’ and ‘faith’.

One can’t teach another to See, it is something that must be felt. One can not feel unless their heart is open and free of delusion. If this seems like something you should scoff at, consider for a moment that you have been trained to do so just like Pavlov’s dog.
– What I call a vision, you might call a ‘hallucination’
– If I claimed to receive a message or a sign, you might invoke the forer -effect

A certain amount of conditioning is good, but sometimes it causes free-thinking people to take refuge in the same old tired arguments against religion. When we look to others for answers too much, we rob ourselves of our own innate discerning abilities.

That said, we don’t need to agree on Spiritual believes. We just need to agree on what is right for People. Whatever the lab results or prayer group may tell you about Human Gullibility, and however right they are, none of us can prove anything.

Yes people can be crazy, yes people can make shit up just to justify something. That’s the state of the world. It’s the result of mass confusion and promoted bigotry. It’s the result of too many plausible ideas leading to too many different answers. If you have doubts, but truly want to understand “God”, then forget everything you think you know about religion and spirituality, and approach it from a different angle. Start with a basic form of spirituality, like Buddhism, and work from there (It’s basically just philosophy). The only contention I’m making is that there is a higher power, but what It is and how It manifests Itself is up to your own interpretation.

Einstein again – Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind

If forced to define it, I jokingly consider myself a Possibilian, because certainty is an absurd position for anyone. I consider it the ‘religion’ of, “I don’t really know, but I’m going to challenge myself and try to find out”. Even an Atheist can appreciate that.

“Our ignorance of the cosmos is too vast to commit to atheism, and yet we know too much to commit to a particular religion. A third position, agnosticism, is often an uninteresting stance in which a person simply questions whether his traditional religious story (say, a man with a beard on a cloud) is true or not true. But with Possibilianism I’m hoping to define a new position—one that emphasizes the exploration of new, unconsidered possibilities. Possibilianism is comfortable holding multiple ideas in mind; it is not interested in committing to any particular story.”

~ David Eagleman

Exactly. I’ve often wondered what could possibly be the basis for the entire discipline of theology. My father had a degree in it, and I never dared ask him.

I’ve always figured that it was an extension of the innate sense of superiority everyone has. The “well, but I said it, so obviously it’s true” that goes along with so much more than just religious assertions.

Hmm, the basis for an entire discipline of theology? I don’t know, faith? Whoever came up with that unassailable concept is quite the genius, imo.

@Scooby

I don’t know of anywhere Christianity has bee slandered in this Thread. The question was meant in a broader sense.

the Bible is pure truth

A main problem of anyone saying “you can’t prove it doesn’t exist” or, “there is no information against it”, is that it’s true. You can’t prove anything non-tangible doesn’t exist.
But that reasoning falls through rather fast, since you can’t actually disprove the tooth fairy, the flying spaghetti monster, or a child’s imaginary friend. How do you know the child isn’t just seeing and hearing what you’ve been “trained” to tune out?
This means everything holds equal merit, from a man on a soapbox spouting he is the prophet of the god who lives in your earlobes, to a child’s hidden under the bed and closet monsters, to the Pope’s hand, guided by the wisdom of the one true god.
This would mean absolute absurdity. Every man, woman and child could be a messiah, and if you used the lack of disproving evidence as a reason for a creator of any sort being at least a possibility, then they are just as plausible.

The absence of evidence, is the evidence of absence.

They have experiences that they interpret as an experience of God. They don’t just think it’s God, they know it’s God. So, of course, once they know God, how can they not know what He wants?

I am convinced that these experiences are not uncommon. However most of us do not interpret them as a communication from or with God. We experience them as being part of the numinous or a connection with the All, or something else. Lot’s of different ways of interpreting the experience. Most of us, however, realize these are personal experiences, with no way to tell if they are the same as someone else’s experience. So we don’t generalize.

However there are many insecure people who have no faith in their own experience. However if they get together with others and convince themselves they all share the same experience, and then they give it a Name so that the experience seems uber-special, they can get some good street cred with the homies, built a community, feel an important part in it, and presto-bingo! Their insecurity is gone!

It’s a self-reinforcing circle. You see magical shit, and share it with others with similar perceptions, and they think you’re cool, and you do the same for them. Pretty soon you have a tight group and you are an important part of it. Every people calls themselves “The People.” We all want to feel special about ourselves. We create a group identity to do this. God is a common symbol around which groups can coalesce. If you are magic enough, you get to know God personally.

But it’s really no different from what we are creating on fluther. We are all jellies—the anointed, that is. We have our own language and set of references. We know we are special because of that. We think we have the best social website on the internet and on and on. We all want to feel good about ourselves, and so we reinforce each other that way. We all know the great Jelli in the sky, just the same a Christians know God.

How very regrettable it is that Christianity has been so hacked up by the splintering into denominations. How many ministries have fallen by the wayside that were meant to uphold the virtues of true belief and care for others? How many ministries have pillaged their flocks in mercenary scheming and sexual scoundreling?. How many outright cults? I can sure see the reasons for looking askew at things that were meant to be lived out far above the monotnous plane of some form of predatorship. How many “Christian” families lived within some kind of letter of law but little freedom to just love and understand each other? I am sure there are thousands upon thousands of North Americans who want to barf when think about religion and its contexts. And I throw my hat in the pile with those who feel that. way.

What in the world is going on? I think it is just the time of the world where the wolves are being exposed and we see things as they actually are. That isn’t all that bad. Because I don’t have a better way to put it, still and all we shouldn’t “throw the baby out with the bath water.” Maybe it is a good thing that things are moving and shaking and being exposed as they are. Maybe that leaves room for the genuine to come forth. I sure do understand that many are calling themselves agnostic because thinking people do have to stop and look around and consider many things freshly. It is right to do that. I think too often humanity does not leave open the possibility that there really IS a whole world of the spirit that they don’t know much about. On the shadow side of things, we see a growing interest in occult and paranormal and all things that might point to a search for something more. No matter what humans say or do, the Kingdom of God and the drama of life is still playing. God is never on trial even if humans in their finite mindedness assert this. When we speak of God and creation and God’s interactions with mankind this is such an infinite scope that how could anyone scoff at the failure to interpret the details with precision. Yes, the scriptures are there and invite us all to explore.

I really don’t understand and I need help, please, in understanding how someone becomes an atheist. To me that is very severe and it is to say topic closed. And yet I see those who say they are atheists time and again raising topics and questions here. Though the minds of many have seemingly investigated and explored and deduced and concluded that there is no God. Case closed. How can this be? What is the criteria? I am not about justifying God’s existence. Anyone who sincerely seeks has put themself on a plane where recognition of the spirit is quite likely. I am wondering if there hasn’t been a concerted effort to deny the things of God partially because of old wounds, poor parenting, content with one’s own head space, not wanting any kind of authority beyond one’s own intellect etc. We see the evidence overwhelmingly on the side of an orderly creation that has gone on all these thousands of generations pretty well except for the follies of mankind who were meant to care for it.

.

No one knows. That’s where belief comes in. If you are not a believer, almost anything religious probably sounds ridiculous to you.

1 Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

@smilingheart1 I’m not an aetheist so I could only guess what reasons they have. Maybe I’m agnostic. I don’t know why any matter out there even bother to exist. Was there a creator? And how can we know for sure and not just because we don’t know? Hence, the concept of faith. I would buy that concept but right now I can’t think of any religion who would compel me to have faith in the God they are representing.

Take for example the Christian faith. I happen to think that it was only meant for Jews and Jews alone. And the only reason Gentiles were accepted was because a man named Paul said God told him on the way to Damascus (? ) that oh yes, non-Jews can be Christians.

I understand the teachings are powerful. I understand Jesus’s story was powerful. It’s power was enough to inspire whole generations of human beings to believe that God has sent His Son to die for mankind’s sin. Wow, what a powerful story. So powerful that Christians around the world do not wonder why, wait a minute, why there in the middle east? Why pick someone from Israel to be his son? Why not a Chinese or a Saxon or a Dutch or a Japanese or a Thailander?

Doesn’t it sound more like Christianity is a Jewish invention, specifically by a genius philosopher named Jesus? A great invention nonetheless. So great that its explanation of the origin of things have stood for centuries. And yes, he knew he had to die. Otherwise his teachings may not live forever. Are human beings capable of killing themselves in the name of what they think is the greater good? Obviously. We see it today and it was no different in the old days.

And Christians could always cite passages from the Bible, yes, but does it convincingly explain why Jesus when he supposedly rose from the dead did not even bother to show himself to the whole of Judea? and declare, “I have risen, see?” No, he showed himself blinding two Roman guards and he showed himself to his disciples and said, Blessed more are those who believe but did not see(?)
Wow, what’s up with that. Sounds like he is the kind of God who thrives in faith. And so we are suppose to believe minus any tangible proof and if you didn’t you’re hellbound?

@smilingheart1 You say ”Though the minds of many have seemingly investigated and explored and deduced and concluded that there is no God. Case closed. How can this be? What is the criteria? I am not about justifying God’s existence. Anyone who sincerely seeks has put themself on a plane where recognition of the spirit is quite likely. I am wondering if there hasn’t been a concerted effort to deny the things of God partially because of old wounds, poor parenting, content with one’s own head space, not wanting any kind of authority beyond one’s own intellect etc. We see the evidence overwhelmingly on the side of an orderly creation that has gone on all these thousands of generations pretty well except for the follies of mankind who were meant to care for it.”

It is hard to see how you organize your thinking about this issue, and I think that is a problem with most believers. There is no organized way for creating knowledge. You know or your don’t. It is almost entirely intuitive.

You suggest that most people who seek will recognize spirit, which makes sense to me. But I have no idea why spirit has to have anything to do with the idea of a god of some kind. It seems to needlessly complicate things. It’s hard enough to define the spiritual without bringing in the concept of some undefinable entity that everyone who experiences it has a different experience. There is no commonality with God. Spirituality is a bit easier than that. Plus spirituality makes no universal claims. It is purely personal. No one is wrong or right, they way they are with God.

I think it is a mistake to say that people deny God or the “things of God.” I think it is an awakening to the realization that there are no things of God… or rather, no evidence for things of God, or, for that matter, God.

You see an “orderly” creation and see that as evidence for… God, apparently. To me that is selective vision. You see order, but conveniently ignore the disorder and chaos, which is an essential part of nature. Then you make the most egregious error that I find is typical of the hubris of Christians and other religions in your mention of “the follies of mankind who were meant to care for [creation].”

Wow! Who gave mankind this job? It’s hard not to get snippy here, when people do not recognize some of the most basic principles of logic, or lack thereof. The only reason people believe that mankind is to care for the world is because God told them to, or so they say. Because God made the world for humans. Can you see how convenient that is? Can you see how that allows humans to think of themselves as the center of the universe? How it gives us the right to do whatever we please?

TO me that is the height of hubris, but it is also perfectly understandable. We all see ourselves as the center of the universe. Believing in God gives us the ultimate authority to see ourselves that way.

I look for explanations of human behavior. And when I look at what people might get out of a belief in God, there are many benefits. It helps them feel; it helps them feel part of a community; it binds them together; it is a good way to pass rules of society along and enforce them; it is a self-policing mechanism for these rules and on and on. God, as a tool for making society work well, does work. And if that’s where believers left it, I would have no problem.

Unfortunately, many people go further. They insist God is a literal entity. They insist they have a special link to God. They use this as a way to argue that their version of the rules are more holy than anyone else’s and in doing so, they create divisions in the world, as you have mentioned. The big problem today is that we can no longer afford these kinds of divisions. In a world with nuclear weapons and global warming and enormous population growth and huge wars, we need to to everything we can to get people on the same page. We need to cooperate to survive.

Many religions understand this. Unfortunately they think that the cooperation can only happen under their aegis. The world will go to hell if anyone else is in charge. That’s an attitude we can’t afford. We need all people to understand each other and cooperate. We can not have people who are unwilling to compromise. If they have to have it their way or the highway, we will be screwed in the long run. Religions have brought people together and they have ripped people asunder. We can’t afford any more asunder.

But that’s just religion. God is a separate issue. God is not really a problem as long as He is not used to claim the dominance of one religion over another. God is not a problem as long as no one says you can’t be good unless you believe in Him. As soon as those things happen, we are in deep shit, because we can’t work on commonalities again. God is an excuse to keep people apart, and as such, He is unhelpful, not matter what other psychological good belief in him might provide people.

Though belief is another problem because it encourages magical thinking. Intuition is a good thing, but it can go too far. We need to always ground ourselves in the real world. We need real world evidence to support any hypothesis. We need to understand the scientific method, or have some other method for creating knowledge. The religious way of creating knowledge is from the inside and as such, it is unverifiable. It’s not really knowledge if it can’t be verified. That’s the essential problem and far too many people don’t even know this. Indeed, it is scary how many people who do know it don’t really follow it.

Well, that’s just a quick version of all the discussion on your question. It is frustrating to me because I have said these things over and over on fluther for nearly four years now. It’s not going to go away. But it seems to me that people should learn basic logic and rules of evidence in college, if not high school. Anyone who followed the scientific rules for creating knowledge would look for an alternative reason for explaining the existence of the concept of God. The idea that God has a physical existence would be recognized as being so remote that is is virtually impossible.

I wish that all religious questions would just die.

@mazingerz88, I am not sure where you are in terms of biblical history and origins and how the Old Testament branches into the New. The Old Testament was essentially the law and we see how harsh it looks. In its legality God was communicating to the Jews through the law of Moses that they couldn’t do law. And of course He didn’t want them to; He was getting ready to introduce Grace. Through Jesus entry into the world God was introducing His own self: the Spirit of Love. Saul who became Paul as you know, was a very prideful, staunch Jew whom God selected to communicate to the non Jewish, non believing citizens throughout the ancient middle east. He gave Peter the assignment of helping the Jews realize the Good News was for all. Peter was so staunch that it took him over a decade to “get it” and God had to help Him understand this with a dramatic vision.

Your thoughts that Christianity was to be exclusive in some way to just the Jews are not supported by the Bible. Actually, the New Testament goes to great lengths to explain all of this and I would really encourage anyone who is seeking in any way to spend some quality time – at any point in their lives that they might be ready to explore this.. The Bible respectfully waits for all of us to do that if and when we choose.

There is lots written in the Bible itself that explains how Israel (brand new since 1948) is dovetailed in with Christianity. The study of eschatology (end times) shows a fair bit about this. So as we look at the news these days and we see the Arab nations all in a tumult, turning on each other and sand fighting basically, and then we look at tiny Israel in the midst upholding their own set of values, we see something quite capable of producing wonder. The end timess prophecies of the Bible are being played out before our eyes whether we want to recognize it or not.

@mazingerz88, I respect your respectful way of communicating what you have to say.

@Jude, I wonder why you are looking at this question which you are not interested in.

@wundayatta, I really can’t see where you are coming from. Are you atheist, agnostic, universalist, new ager, Where are you?

@smilingheart1 Boredom.

@Jude! You are honest and cute.

@smilingheart1 The point of that wall of text @wundayatta gave us isn’t what her personal stance on whether god exists, or what flavor he come in.
The point is what effect the concept of god has on the planet, and on people.
It’s a rough guideline of part what we need to do to make this world work.

It was beautifully written, and the whole thing seems to have just flown over your head, unfortunately.

@Prosb, I got what was said, just not the position that @wundayatta who needs you for spokesperson? is coming from. By the way @Prosb, in you post earlier you stated:

The absence of evidence, is the evidence of absence.

I guess that sums it up FOR YOU. You closed your case, no need to spend much energy on it if you have it all determined.

@smilingheart1:
“I guess that sums it up FOR YOU. You closed your case, no need to spend much energy on it if you have it all determined.”

You seem to disparage those who have found what they want and, thus, stopped seeking. I take it, then, that you are always open to new ideas and experiences. That’s great—I have some tracts I’d like to share with you.

@CaptainHarley:
“Am I just suppose to shut up while my beliefs are slandered?”

That sounds like an excellent plan to me. I find that I simply don’t care what any of the strangers on Fluther thinks about my beliefs and I invite you to share my attitude.

@Jude, when I say my prayers at night I ask Jebus for you.

@ratboy He doesn’t deliver, huh?

I think by default most (good) religious people believe that the feelings we have is something we have in common with our God. So if we think something is wrong, it is because our God is letting us know that in his eyes it is wrong.
Some go by what has been written down and simply told to them.
Some just like to use God as an excuse for bad behavior.
I for one sometimes may offer what I THINK or SPECULATE, God may think about a situation or behavior, if asked. But I never claim to actually know his personal view. That would be blasphemy.

@Jude—perhaps if I were a better person?

@smilingheart1 I’m not @wundayatta‘s spokesperson.
What I did is called a compliment. People give them out sometimes when they see something they like, or are in agreement with. Just wanted to set that straight with you, since your exaggerations have inflated to the point where I think they are somehow impeding a large portion of your thought processes.

And yes, I am comfortable with where I stand regarding the topic of religion and related matters.
That does not mean I am incapable of learning more, or generally discussing the topic.

Also, if being sure in my position means my presence here is unfounded, does that make you unsure about what you believe? Just wondering.

@CaptainHarley

Ahh the penny finally dropped, well done……. Exactly, your beliefs were not being attacked by me or by the OP’s Question……. Thank you.

You know, @smilingheart1, I’m just a curious person. I ask how does the idea of “God” help people. Why do they have that idea? Then I talk to some people and I try to put myself in their place to see whether there is something that I do for myself that works the same way that God works for others. That’s the best I can come up with.

I believe that people are people and have a lot in common. Unfortunately, we use different words to express a lot of what we have in common. What we have in common is experience. But things go way far apart when we interpret our experiences. For years I have wondered how I can relate to people who interpret experience so differently from the way I do. My idea is that, should I choose to, I can ask people about experience, not interpretation of experience.

When I do that, and when people can actually describe experience instead of interpreting it, I find we have a lot more in common than when we share interpretations. Unfortunately, we have been brought up to interpret instead of describe. This is particularly true of feelings, and especially spiritual kinds of feelings. See that? An interpretive word: spiritual.

By saying “spiritual” I basically invalidate most of my discussion because all of a sudden, no one knows what I’m talking about. It’s a hot button word and people have strong feelings about it. I’ve lost a lot of people in using that word. Had I stuck purely to my experience, more people would get it, and more importantly, no one could argue with it because it is my experience.

But a lot of people like to argue, and it is easy to argue about interpretations because people rarely bother to define words and they rarely recognize they are talking about second-order things instead of direct experience. You can say God exists and I can say that is the stupidest idea in the world and neither of us has a clue what the other is talking about. I don’t know what you mean by God, and you don’t know what I think is stupid.

I am a scientist. I have no beliefs whatsoever. In my world there are only data and hypotheses that suggest ways to explain phenomena that the data purportedly measure. Science is the process of knowledge creation. All knowledge is provisional since new evidence could come in that disproves old knowledge. Knowledge for which there is evidence supercedes theories that lack evidence. The concept of God is a theory that lacks supporting evidence and as such, deserves the same amount of credibility that we place in the idea that there are vast new universes inside black holes.

I don’t believe things, but I do appreciate interesting ideas. I appreciate art. I see God as a creative idea that has an up side and a down side. I don’t think it’s a very elegant idea, and I think it’s creativity is a bitter careworn. But a lot of people like the idea, so I have to take it seriously as a social movement, if not as an idea that can be supported with any evidence.

I generally avoid debates. I’ll say my piece, but I won’t defend it. I have found that it is useless to argue. If I want real understanding, I have to devote the time necessary to come to understand a person. I do that, but only for people I really care about. I can’t do it for everyone. No one could. There are people in my life who mean the world to me and who also believe in God. It is a struggle for me to understand where they are coming from, but since they mean so much, I try my hardest. We share a lot in common, and our experiences of spiritual things are very similar, so as long as we don’t insist on any particular way of interpreting experience, we’re fine.

@Prosb Thank you for the kind words. I’m glad you liked my comments.

@wundayatta, my premise in joining Fluther was to interact with folks – people who see things similarily and those who don’t. It is enjoyable to share thoughts, ideas, verifyable evidence too. There can be no hotter topic than core beliefs for everything else about individual’s lives spawns from these. And indeed when it comes to core beliefs the word “experience” is a connector. I most assuredly don’t like debates, only the sharing of our “stuff.” Most especially when it comes to Spirit (if one interprets Spirit to be permeated with the depths of true care) then it would be counter and ridiculous to start belief bashing.

I am humbled that you are a scientist with all the talents and gifts of deducing. I mean that word in the highest sense! I find quantum physics to be a very exciting thing to think upon and see it as God letting us in on some of His secrets, including science.

I really appreciate your unique gifts, talents and your perspectives. I think we’ll get along fine!

@smilingheart1 What you said hot me I don’t like debates this is what I think is true for many who are religious, they don’t want a debate, or to be questioned, and so when someone does question them they find it to be an afront agaist their beliefs instead of a question.

@JLeslie, I know you have been around Fluther a long time and have been in on lots of barn burner topics and discussions etc. In checking back through some older threads I have seen times when instead of it being a jellie-like tide pool freedom of expounding on where one is at or things one is thinking on, when it comes to matters of Spirit, it rapidly gets to be more like a shark swirl of ridicule towards those who nail down beliefs and most particularly to Christianity. Sometimes there is an emergence of almost a peanut gallery in the background chortling and cackling “Go, get ‘em” in support of the more atheistic position.

Do you concur with the attitude of @wundayatta? I find this totally acceptable; I just don’t think that these interjecting one liners that people throw into the discussion accomplish anything worthwhile. Especially when one sees they are meant to be a put down.

@smilingheart1 When I read these threads I think of this

“Sometimes there is an emergence of almost a peanut gallery in the background chortling and cackling “Go, get ‘em” in support of the more atheistic position“ …….. Peanut here….. The same could be said of any discussion on theses boards where certain cliques,Religious cults feel perturbed by a seemingly slanderous question that they so readily turn around to be a personal attack on their beliefs……. Really the mind boggles…. Religion indeed has much to answer for :-/

@smilingheart1 I agree the one liners can be sarcastic or meant to be a put down as you say. I can see why religious people would be offended by my one liner at the top, the second answer on this thread, but again, my Christian friend was the one who said it to me. She was questioning how I could not believe in God, that obviously there is a God if there is a Bible. So it is one of your own putting that one liner out there, that was her argument for why I am wring to be an athiest, I just repeated it. But, even when there is a civilized discussion from my perspective, many Christians seem annoyed, because they do not want to have to defend how or why. I have no problem with it. I ask a lot of questions on here specifically to Christians, just wanting to know their perspective, how they see certain topics, and the world. If you search Christians: @jleslie probably a whole bunch of my questions will come up, and mostly I am just curious, not combative. I try to remember to state that I am only looking for the Christian point of view or opnion, not to dispell it.

I am not in 100% alignment with @wundayatta to answer your direct question, but do see the point he is trying to make about scientific method, evidence, and beliefs. I agree a lot of disagreements have to do with semantics and miscommunications between the religious and the non-religious. I agree that if the religious don’t want to debate, and are not willing to question, then for the scientist that is very frustrating, illogical. All too many theists don’t even understand what the scientific method is, not because they are theists, but because most people have no clue in general, and so the use of scientific jargon, again, miscommunication begins to destroy any conversations on the topic.

@Scooby, my aim is to not do such a thing. I find it wrong and counter to a the whole spirit of communicating on what I consider to be the most important topic in any person’s life.

@smilingheart1
Live & let live, that’s all we all should be preaching if anything, I have no time for prickly pears, religious or otherwise…… have fun here…. it’s free ;-)

@JLeslie, I really appreciate your response and respect the things you are saying. Concerning my comment about @wundayatta, I didn’t want to communicate that our beliefs are in alignment, only that we are both registering that each of us considers our innate nature not to be combative.

I do thank you for the link to scientific method. This is useful in those things that can be measured scientifically and of course there is plenty of evidence to support God’s scientific leanings. :0

It is probably getting close to @wundayatta‘s cookie time soon and I want to bid you a very good weekend. Thanks much!

@Jude You want me to die?

Shhhh… He might hear you. *LOL

@smilingheart1 I’m curious about your use of the word “spirit.” It is one of those words that many people use in quite different ways.

I tend to use “spirituality” rather than “spirit” in order to talk about something I experience as a connection with something larger than myself. I have experiences where I feel connected to other people and to the closer and farther environment as if I am not separate from them; as if we are the same consciousness. It’s an amazing feeling and it is what I live for.

I feel in in many different situations. I primarily feel it making music with others, dancing with others and making love. I also feel it doing yoga and other forms of exercise, or when I do my own form of meditation.

For me it is an awareness that is very calming. I don’t feel alone or separate for those moments. It gives me the strength to deal with some serious problems.

I suspect this feeling is similar to the feelings that many religious people have, but I consider it to be a feeling with no corresponding physical reality. I would never generalize from my feeling. It’s mine and mine alone. It doesn’t mean anything about anyone else. Maybe others say they feel something like it, and I am happy to hear about how those experiences happen. I need to hear that.

What I don’t need to hear is any interpretation. I do not want to hear some say that it is something “God” gives them. That doesn’t help me and I think it hides the truth about the experience. I understand that the experience often feels like it comes from outside one. I feel that way, too. But that does not mean it comes from outside me, nor that there is any external reality to it.

However, having no external reality does not mean it is unimportant. I think it is a very important feeling. I think it helps people bond. I think it helps build communities. I think it helps people identify with each other. There are many benefits. In my experience, however, people tend not to talk about these real benefits. Instead they talk about god and religion and soul and spirit and whatnot, and I think these conversations are worse than useless. They are misleading. They do not lead to knowledge creation. They separate people—just the opposite of what the experience is about.

Well, I could go on and on. I’m just giving an example of how I think about these things and why I think specific experience is so important. If we don’t know what we’re talking, how can we communicate.

There is, however, a unique problem with talking about these experiences. I believe that we experience them in a part of our brain that does not have language. If no language, how can we talk? What happens is that we have to kind of build a translation system from the non-linguistic parts of our minds to the linguistic parts. This is a highly imperfect process. Most people just give up and say, “I can’t explain. You have to experience it.”

This is true. Yet it is an unsatisfactory response. We can’t all experience it for many reasons. So we have to try to talk, and that’s why people use words like “god” and “spirit” and whatnot. They are sufficiently vague to incorporate a lot of experience. They allow you to believe you are talking about the same thing, whether you are or not.

I have spent years using my scientific training to try to understand these experiences and to describe them as accurately as I can. Description is the first step. After we have clear definitions of the experiences and we have typed them or categorized them, we can start to measure how prevalent they are. We can start to measure consequences of these experiences.

And so on.

In my mind, that is how we create knowledge. I do not trust anything I believe. I make many intuitive leaps, but I don’t think they are useful until they have been verified by collecting evidence. I am skeptical and I try to be skeptical of everything all the time. I get frustrated to the extreme when people don’t do this and when they don’t even seem to be aware this is the method of knowledge creation that has provided almost all the useful information or knowledge we have in our lives.

I think that it is just that in all fairness “A notion” and it should never be portrayed as anything more.

@wundayatta Is it possible that knowledge creation in someone who talks about his God, begins and ends with his religion’s sacred writings? Some people like scientists have greatly contributed to the human race’s advancement using the knowledge creation process you describe but do you think there would come a time when they could accept that faith is faith and for people who have it, acknowledging scientific knowledge creation would just be a waste of their time?

Well, we have this relationship, see. You get to know the Guy.

@mazingerz88 _ Is it possible that knowledge creation in someone who talks about his God, begins and ends with his religion’s sacred writings?_

Absolutely. For many, that seems to be the case.

Certainly, for some people, it seems they believe that accepting scientific knowledge creation is a waste of their time.

It is a waste of time for me to talk to such people. I might ask how they came to be in such a position. It seems like either they grew up with this point of view, or they had a revelation.

I could then try to ask about the revelation. Sometimes people can talk about it, but mostly they can only talk about their interpretation of it, which is useless since only they have the experience, and I can either trust them or not trust them about their interpretation, but I can’t verify anything. If I can’t verify it, then there’s nothing to talk about. We have no common experience. We might as well live in separate universes.

Also, I don’t trust them, because it feels like they either won’t talk about it or can’t talk about it. Both moves are very suspicious. They are, in my view, lying by omission. Of course, no one likes it when people seem to have a secret agenda.

@wundayatta I would simply assume that people are ambivalent to share a revelation since it is unverifiable and they are aware of that. Some however, would not stop repeating it and broadcast it to the world if given the chance, believing they are being “validated” and they are inspiring others.

Not being able to verify is not the issue anymore. It is serving a purpose that to them is good and to talk about verification would kill it. People are indeed living in different universes. And maybe literally. Maybe that is the secret to life as we know it. We could touch each other but we’re just matter vibrating from our own different slides of reality in a multi-universe plane.

The more you date a person or spend time with a person, the more you get to know how they behave and think. So the more time you spend in a religion, the more understanding you gain about the traditions of the culture and also of how the deity presents them self.

I am a Christian and I believe that the Bible is true. With that said, I’m not going to go stuffing it down your throat unless you ask a question. Are my answers jaded? That depends on perspective. Are your questions jaded? Again that depends on perspective.

Discussion is about mutual respect.

@Kato, thank you for that well thought out GA. Welcome to Fluther!

@GracieT Thank you I am enjoying Fluther immensely!

1 Corinthians 2:10–12 says,
“For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God…”