I don't know if this has been asked yet (if so, just tell me), but what is considered an "attack" when discussing or questioning religion or god?

Something like an ad hominem
“Oh you believe in x, your opinion is worthless” or something to that degree.

Saying that Christian beliefs are deluded.

Saying that atheists believe in something.

Anything & everything, on these pages at least…..that’s why I keep away.

@marinelife By your standards, everything I’ve written is an attack. Perhaps you are right.

This raises a question in my mind. Do stupidity and wrong-headedness deserve to be attacked? Additionally, given that this is fluther and fluther doesn’t like trolls, and trolling seems to be an activity designed to foster argument, is attacking is allowed under the rules of fluther.

Can we have fights here? Is there anything wrong with fighting? Does it matter whether something is an attack or not?

I guess, by my definition, any words that address a disagreement are an attack on the beliefs of the advocate of the person who disagrees. Even questions are an attack, because they are designed to get the other person to change their point of view. Anything asking for change is a form of attack.

No wonder I’m tired all the time. I’ve been on the attack all my life.

Scoffing and “peanut gallery” like remarks that are without class and meant to demean.

@smilingheart1 Never heard that term before, what are peanut gallery remarks?

Attacking a claim is not the same as attacking a person making a claim.

It appears that this distinction has been lost here on fluther. Attacks on claims are being perceived as attacks on the person.

Claiming that someone is ignorant or deluded just because you don’t share the same beliefs is pretty insulting and pathetic.

Frankly, I think it might be worth while for atheists/agnostics to be a little careful of allowing those who disagree with the increasing prominence and advocacy by atheists/secularists, to dictate the discussion.

At present, that’s what seems to be happening, as we spend impressive amounts of time worrying about our tone, as if that mattered more than the substance of our objections to religious dogma’s prominent role in our societies.

Referring to believers as childish, stupid/dumb, ignorant, delusional, retarded, or comparing their beliefs to fairy tales- all of that is an “attack”. Since I’ve been told I’m all of the above by several people here, I feel that I have the right to call those specific people out for their arrogance and general douchebaggery.

Basically, it’s “don’t fuck with me and I won’t fuck with you”. It’s a good rule to live by, when it comes to religion and politics.

@WillWorkForChocolate – Obviously, anyone calling you names rather than engaging in serious conversation or debate is a clear example of ad hominem or making a personal attack.

However….“or comparing their beliefs to fairy tales”

I think we have here an example of where a critique (or attack) on a claim can be perceived as an attack on the person making the claim.

@tom_g I consider it to be an attack, because my beliefs are deeply rooted inside my person, and in my brain. Comparing my beliefs to fairy tales, or mocking me, asking if I believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy is basically calling me a fucking idiot. It’s still an attack. Just because it’s not verbally spoken does not mean that it’s not implied and equally insulting and hurtful.

It is possible to debate religion without acting like a flaming asshat (though on websites like this, that in itself is open to debate). I debate with my baptist uncle frequently. I don’t insult him or tell him his beliefs are stupid; I simply bring up the points that I have and we talk about them in a civilized manner.

I believe when you respect an individual person enough, you don’t feel the need to put them down or make them feel defensive when you discuss things that you disagree with.

@WillWorkForChocolate – Do you feel that it is possible for an individual to be incapable of seeing a difference between religious texts and fairy tales? And what if they are discussing it in a way that uses evidence to make connections between them? Asking you if you believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy is not calling you a “fucking idiot”, and I think this is precisely why some of the religious questions here have been interpreted as being offensive or abusive.

Some people – myself included – feel that claims made about the nature of reality are subject to investigation. These are the claims themselves – not the person. And if they come to a place in which they need clarification on the difference between religious texts and fairy tales, how should they go about asking this?

Again, it’s the claims vs. the person making the claims. All I am saying is that once you put your claims out there, you need to step back and realize that sometimes a battle of ideas is merely that. It doesn’t have to be personal. Imagine for a second that you are in a critical reasoning class in college. Would “I am offended” fly? No. Because it’s not about you – it’s about the ideas.

@WillWorkForChocolate: “I believe when you respect an individual person enough, you don’t feel the need to put them down or make them feel defensive when you discuss things that you disagree with.”

If you read my response, I think you’ll see that we’re probably in agreement for the most part. My only comment on that would be that I don’t think it’s possible to “make someone feel defensive”. That’s for the defensive person to figure out and work out for him/herself.

Note: Your uncle side-story is unrelated to my post, and I am wondering if you even understood what I was saying.

@WillWorkForChocolate I’m going to ask you something but don’t take it as attack. To me, the story of god is like any other story, including fairy tales. I don’t get why it’s insulting to compare religion to fairy tales or a kind of mythology when that’s how I see it, in neutral terms. Fairy tales aren’t somehow bad and religion isn’t either (unless it harms people). But if we don’t believe in god, are we not allowed to say that books ‘written by god’ are just like any other book? That’s how we actually view it without trying to be insulting. I mean it’s taken as an insult but it’s not meant to be, not in my head. If you don’t believe in something, it’s just like everything else (in your mind) that you don’t believe in.

@WillWorkForChocolate Just curious as to whether you don’t see any similarities between stories of the Norse or Greek gods and fairytales?

I think that we have to stop and reconsider what constitutes and justifies using the word “Attack” first. If someone feels attacked, it is a natural response by fight or flight to defend. Unfortunately, the person on the other end of said defense will feel like they are being attacked. It’s tricky.

Religion when challenged, is for some people like defending the very fabric of their world. It is a fear based response that is projected as an attack when an attack is percieved in the mere seemingly harmless event of questioning something that person depends upon for their very moral core.

“Asshat” here.

I don’t know why I let myself be sucked into a troll game, but here goes.

As a person who can not tell the difference between believing in the tooth fairy, santa clause, or a god of some kind, is there any one who can tell me how to distinguish between the three? Or, for that matter, my favorite is the great invisible purple whale in the sky that is responsible for all the actions that occur on earth. Is there any way I can distinguish between the validity of the four?

Now, if no one can tell me how to do so, what can I conclude about the perceptions or analytical capabilities of someone who believes in one but not any of the others?

Must I respect beliefs that have no discernible basis? Must I respect the intelligence of those who have beliefs with no discernible basis as having equal intelligence to anyone else? If so, on what basis do I place this equivalency?

Sigh.

Look, to all four of you- all I’m going to say is that unless and until you have some deep-rooted spiritual belief, and you’re hounded about it daily, usually in a very rude way, for years upon years, you will never understand the way theists feel about “attacks”. Don’t even bother trying, because you’ll never get it. Period.

And I should never have answered this question. No more religion for me, because it’s the same old “I’m seriously trying to understand” song and dance that is never truly about trying to understand. I’ll save you the trouble and just admit that I’m crazy/delusional/insane and I lack all intelligence because I believe wholeheartedly in the existence of an invisible person. Peace out.

@wundayatta Did you just call me a troll lol?

@WillWorkForChocolate Actually, all I ever see you do is just what you did. Something about how persecuted you feel followed by loads of hyperbole about how everyone thinks you have no brains. If I thought so, I wouldn’t be involving you in a conversation. I’m involving you, particularly, ‘cause we’ve been friends for awhile. Since you’re not answering my question (which I actually did ask wanting to get at what’s wrong with comparing fairy tales to the bible, not to perform a dance about how I want to understand…I understand why people need religion quite well.), I will ask it of someone else. Peace.

While the use of a condescending tone isn’t necessarily a personal “attack,” I can certainly understand why some people get offended by this, and so I do think debates would go better if we could at least try to avoid doing that.

Regarding the tone thing: aren’t some questions kind of difficult to ask without having a tone?

@Mariah – I agree. However, we just witnessed a clear example of how tone does not matter. Nobody tried to offend @WillWorkForChocolate, but she clearly felt offended.

Perhaps “I am being attacked” is an easier out than “I am experiencing cognitive dissonance and should consider why.”

AdamF Great answer!

Attack of the Killer Tomatoes! Now that’s an attack! Lol. Oh my, Fluther is so fun!

When you believe something to be obviously true, and you state it, not knowing that others feel differently, you are not attacking.

Once you know others feel differently, and they are aware of your opinion, you are often just restating your case to validate yourself at the expense of another persons value.

It is obviously an attack when you make statements devaluing another persons credibility to get the high that comes from having the crowd agree with you.

@Blackberry, Peanut Gallery in the context I mean it is: rearmost or uppermost area in the balcony containing the least expensive seats. And the translation for that in this context is that there are individuals voyeuring in on threads, contributing nothing to the expected intelligent response but chiming in with, remarks like:“I wish this religious thing would just die.” And some remarks get downright blasphemous.

I notice some people have been around Fluther quite prolifically questioning and answering for years now over the big God, little god or no god thread with little or no evidence of growth in the quality of the remarks made. It seems often someone gets a little bored and decides to stir things up with yet another question that has been asked in various forms since the beginning of Fluther. I find this really unfortunate, discouraging and I see many theist jellies don’t stay on site long. Perhaps that’s the goal?

@Blackberry I guess I did (just call you a troll). But know that I don’t mind trolls, since I think that about 50% of questions are trolling questions. I have no idea how mods decide which ones are too egregious and have to be banned. In my mind, most of my comments, including this one, should be removed on the same grounds that trolling posts are removed. I kept a copy of another religious answer today assuming it would be modded. But you know. It’s typical that people can’t apply their rules evenly. Especially when it’s a matter of interpretation about something as nebulous as “tone.”

Everybody knows Elves are better than trolls… They have nicer ears, and they smell better. ☺

@smilingheart1 Ah, ok thanks. Also, it is not the goal of fluther to oust religious people. Sensitive people leave of their own accord. I am on other websites, one being mainly conservative (and I think a little racist), but I’m not getting all hurt and running away. I stay there and debate the hell out of those people for various reasons.

@wundayatta Understanding this stuff is part of my “core” because this facet of society is fascinating, it really is. I can’t control how people respond to my question. I can ask people to not be aggressive, but that’s not going to happen (not to mention, we all know to be respectful, but some just gotta take it there, anyway).

@Blackberry I totally agree. Fascinating and crucial. And the concept of trolling is bogus, in my opinion. If it isn’t, I’m telling you, I’ve been living under a bridge for generations. Since the only time I’ve seen the underside of a bridge is from a highway, this can’t be the case.

I think when you call people unflattering names and question their sanity, and intelligence, because of their faith, then I think that can be an attack. Unless of course their faith is telling them to go out and kill or hurt people or animals, or some other such illegal and hateful acts.
People are allowed to believe what they want to. In most places that is also their right and should be everywhere as far as I’m concerned.
I don’t care what your faith is as long as it doesn’t harm anyone. If you have no such beliefs then that is fine with me too, and I don’t think you should be attacked either.
Why can’t people be kind to each other? Why can’t we respect each others beliefs and leave it at that?
If I answer a religious question I might give my opinion if that is what is asked for, but it’s not my place to judge someone here on what they believe.

@Blackberry – kudos!

Not to get involved in a negative manner because God and Bob Hope know that I really couldn’t care less about religion or its issues… But seriously can you honestly tell me that every single war in the history of the world didn’t in some small margin of a way have in the very least some minor thread tie to religion?

The Ad should read…

Christianity… Killing people since 30–36 AD/CE

[mod says] Official answer: Calling a person crazy, delusional, stupid, etc. is a personal attack, and will be removed. Comparing a belief to fairy tales, etc. is not a personal attack.

That said, I really wish that people would debate with respect for the feelings of the very real people behind the beliefs. Be nice, damn it.

@Mod I pictured you saying that with a robot voice. *I really did, I have no idea why which is weird considering the nature of your comment?

Resistance is futile.

And so it devolves, again.

On a wide range, don’t flame someone for their beliefs, or lack thereof. I’m unsure of how Fluther goes about long winded subtle insults that passes under the radar. If anything, just attribute the guidelines to religious discussions and you’ll be fine.

I would guess that it’s treating someone with a total lack of respect. Or not even attempting to treat anyone’s views with respect.

Pass, not passes, sorry. Fuckin ten minute edit limit, goddammit. XD

I don’t think there is a real answer to this question.
I do attack beliefs. It’s not intended as an attack, but it has been shown time and again that I can not honestly express how I feel about certain beliefs without being accused of attacking.
I do not attack people.
There seems to be a very fine, frequently shifting line between what is okay around here and what isn’t okay.

“YOU BELIEVE IN GOD YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON” is an attack…..but….“No….your ass looks good”
is reinforcing your belief in a higher power!

Here’s what I think is an attack: “You’re retarded and delusional for believing in God”.

Here’s what I don’t think is an attack: “How come people follow Leviticus 18:22 but not Leviticus 19:19?”

Correct me if I’m wrong on that.

@WillWorkForChocolate

And how funny that you contribute to the stereotype that theists are afraid of knowledge (nothing I agree with) with your constant berating people for ACTUALLY TRYING TO UNDERSTAND. But of course your persecution complex doesn’t let anything become of that. And yeah, no atheist understands what it’s like to be attacked for their beliefs; that never ever happens anywhere, especially not in the United States where the population is at least 85% Christian and atheists are the least trusted minority in the country. We just don’t. fucking. get it.

Go ahead and mod me for this. Just tired of the fucking bullshit.

God bless you all, believers and non-believers. A friend told me that faith is a gift and all I had to do was take it. I couldn’t. It isn’t that easy. Talking about it doesn’t necessarily make it so.I know that when I watch a child die, I wish I could believe.
How much of the offensive and defensive arguing about religion is about wanting to convince the other person to think the way the speaker thinks. I know believers who sincerely want to share the happiness they feel as a believer. The non-believer sincerely wants to get the believer to accept his view of reality. If we become argumentative, neither will win and a draw should be called. Maybe that’s the problem here. We have no one to stop the discussion from becoming a hurtful set-to. We need someone to call a halt and suggest we all go out for a beer.

Very well said @Sunny2 !

@tom_g Some people – myself included – feel that claims made about the nature of reality are subject to investigation. These are the claims themselves – not the person. And if they come to a place in which they need clarification on the difference between religious texts and fairy tales, how should they go about asking this?

Read the above three sentences slowly, and carefully – it is one of the best paragraphs ever written on this site.

I think many people are unable to differentiate between on attack on a belief and a personal attack, perhaps because for some people, belief is integral to who they are. But that’s unfortunate, in my opinion, because I feel that many ideas and beliefs deserve to be attacked. (You might even say that fighting for what I believe is integral to who I am.)

Sure, a measured, intelligent debate is much to be preferred. Respect should always be treasured. But sometimes it’s just not effective, not enough.

I have been known to vociferously and venomously attack racism, sexism, homophobia, and, yes, sometimes religion. Because I often perceive aspects of organized religion as an exclusionary tactic, as a method of oppressing certain portions of the population, an excuse for judging. And I’ll agree that I am sometimes a jerk.

But on the specific issue of religion, there’s a huge disconnect that I can never figure out how to get around. For me, to blindly believe in an all-knowing, all-powerful entity just because you’re told to just doesn’t make sense. So how do I effectively argue that without the opposite person accusing me of accusing them of being stupid? How do I express that I support the right of everyone to practice whatever religion they wish, that I’m happy for them that religion gives them an anchor or the peace that they need in their life, but at the same time I truly believe that they’ve bought into an artificial construct, a mass hysteria, if you will? That’s not a personal attack; that’s my opinion.

@augustlan ROFLMAO!