Aetheists, when you say God does not exist, does it mean Gods as interpreted by religions or that the reason the first matter existed could never be construed as anything Godlike?

I can’t believe you just asked this now. For some reason, I feel obligated to answer.

For me, atheism means that I lack a belief in a god(s). That’s it. Now, you ask if it means “gods as interpreted by religions”. Well, in a way, yes. The positive claims that I have seen for the existence of a god have not met my standards of evidence, so I do not and cannot believe.

@mazingerz88: “then what is it that created the first matter particle”

I don’t know.

@mazingerz88: “And if you say you don’t know then does that invalidate all interpretations forwarded by a sentient being such as man, especially if its not through the prism of science-?”

I don’t know what this means.

@mazingerz88: “Is atheism all about science not being able to prove the existence of a God-?”

Huh? It’s simple. I don’t believe anything unless there is sufficient evidence or good reason to. I have neither in the case of god(s).

I’ll just follow this question ^^

So… for a vey long time i was card carrying member of the Richard Dawkins school of atheism where god donesn’t exist where random chance is king and everything can be explained by science. (Remeber just because something hasn’t been explained by science yet soesn’t mean it can’t be explained by science).

As I have got older I have become a less feverent non-believer. I see the beauty in the system and Spinoza’s outlook is becoming a more attractive (or less depressing) world view.

If it’s the latter then what is it that created or how did the first matter particle came about?

It was always there as the singularity. Perhaps as science advances we’ll grasp a better understanding as exactly what was the beginning

Is atheism all about science not being able to prove so far the existence of a God-?

No, I just simply believe that such a being doesn’t exist, science or not.

And the popcorn comes out, lightly buttered.

I see you made a new spelling (after yesterday’s discussion on it)....;-)
Can it be simple answer, without a theological digression?
When I say that God doesn’t exist, I say he doesn’t exist for/to me.
That way, God may exist for/to others.

@zensky – Do you have anything with less carbs? I’m starving.

For me, it simply means I don’t believe in anything supernatural – not Yahweh, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, Santa Claus or the Tooth Faerie.

Just because I can’t explain/understand something doesn’t mean I have to automatically ascribe it’s creation to a “higher power”.

Something exists.

Bits of it, such as we, cannot fully grasp the totality of it.

But that’s the point. That’s the fun.

HOLD IT! Before we continue, could we please sign this form?

I hereby agree to engage in a fair discussion, debate, or argument of ideas. I will leave my ability to be offended at the door, and I will try to keep my statements free from ad hominem attacks.

__________________________

@zensky pass the popcorn, I’m sittin back and only be a spectator on this one. I brought some beer, you want one. It’s ok I’m not Baptist.

Passes the popcorn, gets some granola.

I have no reason or need to believe in any sort of omnipotent, omnipresent, conscious being, yet I cannot say for certain that one or many do not exist. I’m 99.999% sure there is no god, though.

And that is all I mean when I say I am an atheist.

For me, it is about religion. I do not say that there is no possibility a God could not exist; I think it is possible. I don’t, however, think that the deities of human religions exist, at least, not in the way humans have interpreted them thus far.

From Stephen Hawking’s book The Grand Design, “Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist.”

I personally walk a razor’s edge between belief in a spiritual world and an existence without one. It’s quite easy for me to say, however, that I do not believe in god as it is explained by anyone I’ve ever heard or read.

We need to figure out a way to gauge these debates, lets invite an agnostic, have them observe and ask if they were pulled in either direction in the end. Do I hear a second?

@choreplay – I am an agnostic (agnostic atheist). There is some confusion about the term “agnostic” – some people believe that it can stand alone. But that is for another topic….Here is an interesting read on it.

@choreplay Second!

Oh @tom_g I don’t buy that, but we can have it out in another thread, I’m too comfortable and I have a good seat.

Read the link and we can discuss in message or start another thread. There’s nothing to buy.

It’s 4:00 here can I stop working and pay 100% to fluther rather than only 80% of my time and attention. Come on AdamF, you teased me in the other thread and never posted, you can do it.

I’m bored. Zen thanks for the popcorn. I’m out of here. Think I go write my own controversial question.

@tom_g Thanks for the link! Very helpful.

Aetheists, when you say God does not exist, does it mean Gods as interpreted by religions or that the reason the first matter existed could never be construed as anything Godlike?

The first one. Though, that answer is awfully agnostic. >.>

If it’s the latter then what is it that created or how did the first matter particle came about?

Unknown and currently unknowable.

And if you say you don’t know yet then does that invalidate all interpretations forwarded by a sentient being such as man, especially if its not through the prism of science-?

No. It’s a bit like throwing a dart at a board in the dark and guessing what number you hit. Some will be right, some will be wrong, some won’t even hit the board but no matter how certain anyone is of their number, there’s no way of knowing until the light is turned on. Your guess isn’t invalidated by your lack of knowledge anymore than it is validated by the same, it’s just a guess.

Is atheism all about science not being able to prove so far the existence of a God-?

No. Atheism is simply the belief that god doesn’t exist. Invoking science (or anything else) would just be a way to justify that belief.

I don’t believe in anything supernatural, or anything without evidence. Empirical evidence. Obviously…..no one knows how we got here, but that does not invalidate atheism (if that’s what you meant, I didn’t understand the quote tom g referenced, either). Regarding god or how we got here, we all essentially believe our stance 99.99999999%. No logical person can say they know 100% if god does or does not exist.

Oh, and I’m glad you asked this question, they are fun. I will also not be offended at any attacks directed towards atheism, either.

Are you directing this question only towards gnostic athiests, because frankly they are rather rare…

If however you’re asking why I don’t believe in god(s) (as commonly defined by the world’s major religions)...simple, the evidence is only impressive by its shear underwhelmingness.

If in addition you’re asking me to explain the origin of the universe, all I can say is that from my understanding we’re not in any position to give a confident answer to that question, yet. Still waiting for more scientific evidence.

Thanks for all who posted!

@AdamF After reading @tom_g link I just realized that atheism varies. There is weak atheism and strong atheism. I guess @DominicX position would fall under weak atheism since he does not discount the possibility of a God existing.

@mazingerz88 perhaps another way to say it is atheism is simply an extreme end of agnosticism.

This is interesting. ;-)

@wonderingwhy Yes. I just read about how atheism could be either agnostic or gnostic and theism as either being agnostic or gnostic. Not knowing the difference in any debate with unclear parameters would end up in chaotic discussion boards, I think.

@Hawaii_Jake Ohh, but I see a sexy nekked Tahitian lady in that toast. Lol.

{grabs the popcorn}

For me, it means : There is no god or god(s) of any kind, whether part of an established religion or not. Therefore the universe was not created by a god or god(s) of any kind.

Nobody knows how the first particle came into being. That doesn’t invalidate the science, it just means we’re not technologically advanced enough yet. A hundred years ago, mankind did not understand how to make a telephone that would fit in your coat pocket but now we can. Just because a technology or understanding doesn’t exist YET, doesn’t mean it never will. Maybe in a hundred years from now, it will.

It’s an all too common mistake that people make when restricting the definition of atheism to one end of the spectrum, often made by agnostics and theists alike.

Most of us would probably classify was agnostic atheists, or weak atheists if you like (what a sucky term), for the same reason you mention for @DominicX.

I don’t deny the possibility of god, for the same reason I don’t discount the possibility of many imaginery things (not to mention the seemingly endless supply of different definitions for god, some of which seem virtually indistinguishable for basic physics terms). But “possible” includes the ridiculously improbable to the rather likely, so it’s a very uninformative qualifier. All it really does is require us to dip our hats in respect to the fact that we cannot claim to know the nonexistence of almost anything in this vast universe, (almost) no matter how silly or hopelessly improbable it may seem.

@Hawaii_Jake LOLOLOL!!!

Haven’t read through all the answers. I don’t say God doesn’t exist. I say that I see no evidence of a God and I don’t believe in things that have no evidence.

In terms of your particle example, you are correct that we don’t know how matter came about, although the Higgs Field is one leading theory. But just because we don’t have an answer yet, does not mean that an answer does not exist, and it furthermore does not mean that God created the matter. I’m perfectly willing to accept the hypothesis that God created matter particles, but I would put that hypothesis in with other theories, and I say, “Show me a test to prove it.”

So for me, yes. It’s all about science.

I’m just thinking to myself how remarkably consistent many of our answers are…hmmmm, I wonder if evidence based thinking leads to convergence towards something….could it be…reality?

@AdamF But of course it leads to a certain convergence. And so far bloodless too since there are no seemingly snarky remarks about particles or God…yet. Lol.

Wait for it….. :)

God is snarky!

@AdamF Maybe not. I believe “fatigue” exists and some jellies have succumbed to it. I imagine a Bowie knife embedded on a jelly’s keyboard somewhere at this moment while he snores on his/her bed. Lol.

The word “God” is simply a non-answer to the question “what caused the universe to exist?”

You could replace “God” with “I don’t know” and have an equal amount of information.

As for how the first matter particle came about, this is actually an area of active scientific research. Based on what we know about physics—a lot, but not the whole story—there was originally only one force, but moments after the big bang this force sort of separated into the four known forces—gravity, strong, weak, and electromagnetism. Matter as we know it condensed out of the mass/energy as it obeyed the newly separated forces.

Where did the mass/energy come from? Well, one perfectly plausible answer is that it has always been there. We know that space and time are connected as part of the same fabric. If the universe contains all of spacetime, then there is no such time as “before the big bang.” So this means that the universe has simply always existed; thus it would be impossible to create or cause the universe, since in order to create or cause something, there has to be a time before that something. If this seems far-fetched, bear in mind it’s exactly what religious people believe about God… but unlike God, we actually have evidence that the universe exists and that time and space work like this.

@Qingu So infinity exists. Some type of force existed. And some type of matter has always been around? Seems the only thing that’s lacking is adding up the three and calling it God. Did God cause the big bang?

I’m an atheist, but not a science person. I know fuckall about science, it’s like backwards Egyptian to me.
The problem that I see with deities though, is that they’re too human. They encompass too much of our fears, insecurities and desire for safety and guidance to not be something man made.
I don’t know what the hell created existence. But if it is a god, or some kinda force that has nothing to do with science’s limits, I don’t think it’s anything at all as we define it, generally.

@digitalimpression http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uabNtlLfYyU

As a confirmed fence sitting agnostic, I shall remain on the fence for this one, now do excuse me I have a nasty splinter stuck in my arsecheek.

@digitalimpression, I don’t know where you got “infinity exists.” The universe could be finite, but also boundless.

Think of the surface of the Earth. It has a finite area. But there’s no “edge” to it. The north pole is not the “beginning” of the earth in terms of a boundary. It’s just the northernmost point of Earth’s surface. You cannot logically go north of the north pole; “north of the north pole” is a nonsense statement.

Likewise, the big bang is the “earliest” point in the universe. But you can’t go before the big bang.

As far as God “causing” the big bang, again, in order to cause something, there must be a time before the something in question. But there’s no reason to believe there is a time before the big bang. If spacetime is finite but boundless, like the surface of the earth, than there is no such thing.

I also don’t even understand why anyone would call the hypothetical “cause” or “first mover” of the universe God.

The word “God” is a religious word. It has specific connotations. It almost always refers to a deity described by any of the world’s religions. These deities, while different, have specific qualities. And even if there is some force or abstract mathematical object that “caused” the big bang, it’s absurd to identify it as a “god.” It would be like calling the force of gravity an angel.

I think they would call any first mover, God. In not doing so would create confusion and doubt as to the claim that He created everything. I haven’t read lately, in the case of the Bible, any phrases that supports He created everything but I recall reading that.

@mazingerz88 When discussing such a big question as the creation of the entire universe, it does not matter what the bible says.

I would think that if such a thing as god exists there would be definite proof by now. No reasonable person could consider books like the bible or koran anything but a collection of tales told around the campfire.

I consider myself an atheist but don’t rule out supernatural occurrences. What makes them supernatural is that they are not understood. Only laziness would describe them as acts of god rather than doing the research to explain the real cause.