How bad is military culture really?

If I were a woman and had to choose a military branch to join, it would be the Air Force. I can speak from personal experience that the women I have delt with, in the Air Force were respected and treated just like the men. During my time, the women did not have this problem, at least not with the women I was associated with.

I don’t doubt the statistics to be honest. It’s just the environment that fosters it, it seems. Women are a minority amongst a bunch of men in secluded situations and areas: alone on huge boat in the middle of the ocean, or in the middle of a desert. Once you’re out there, the society can change. Some rules may be relaxed or thrown out the window.

I would expect the same if a few women were thrown into an all male college dorm. Imagine a woman being raped and then having to bring her complaint to another male that has been in for awhile, so he’s already accustomed to the environment. They’re going to try to handle it at the lowest level possible to reduce ripples in the societal fabric.

But this also doesn’t mean men are rape prone in the military. This could just be a lot of isolated incidents. Similar to the women that give other honest women in the military a bad name because they are very promiscuous, or use their sex to get out of work etc.

@Blackberry Deep down we’re all animals.

I wonder how it is in the European countries. Any clues? Anyone?

It’s weird. I have a deep respect for people in uniform. And after reading this everytime I will look at someone in the uniform I’ll just wonder: it is likely that this person has probably assautled a woman or atleast helped cover it up.

@Jellie You could look at anyone and wonder what bad stuff they’ve done…... :/

@Blackberry No because everyone is regular people that don’t stand out until you know a little bit about them. You don’t and can’t make judgement on a blank canvas. But with the forces, as soon as you see someone in uniform, you immediately know that much more about them and so that either evokes a positive feeling or a negative one. Same goes for any group of people that have good/bad connotations for being part of that group, e.g. woman in a head scarf.

@Jellie I strongly doubt those statistics. The military aggressively investigates and acts on rape. My son is a 1st Lt. in the Army and just returned from a tour in Afghanistan. I know him as well as I know myself. If any of his soldiers raped a fellow soldier, or if he saw it or heard about it, he would have immediately investigated and reported it. He never even heard allegations of such goings on. Hard to believe, if it happens to 1 in 3 female soldiers.

@Jellie Uhhh…....There are millions of statistics about “regular people” as well. Rape, murder, domestic abuse, theft, divorce, pedophilia etc. Why is one article about rape in the military having such an effect on you, but the other statistics about every demographic everywhere are not registering with you?

@Jellie And for christ sakes, are you that susceptible to fear that a woman in a head scarf raises a negative connotation?

@Blackberry Like I said, anything good or bad that I associate with a specific GROUP as opposed to people I run into on the street will evoke an emotion. However I will not look at a random person on the street with those regular people statistics running in my head, no. That’s too neurotic to me.
Secondly, a woman in a headscarf does not strike fear in me lol, I live amongst that culture. I was using it as an example of how anyone that wears their belief is also judged. Whether that judgement is fair or not is a whole other issue. I’m just trying to explain to you that the bad reputation of a certain group transfers onto individuals of that group.

Are you or were you (or a relative) by any chance in the military? You seem to be becoming defensive.

@Jellie It’s worth noting that your source is Al Jazeera. I file them under “untrustworthy,” along with most blogs.

@Jellie Oh ok, I see. I apologize then. But it is still up to the individual to have enough sense to not reinforce generalizations and stereotypes. It seemed you were suggesting that it’s ok to generalize just because you read the statistics which may or may not be true, now leading you to automatically think bad about an individual just because you read some article and now have a target to scrutinize. “There’s a man in uniform. I just read that article, could he be one of those rapists?”

Yes, I’ve been in the Navy for 7 years.

@Nullo
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@Blackberry unfortunately that’s how the human mind works. I know for a fact that I’m not the only one guilty of it. I hate perpetuating stereotypes myself (particularly because it happens to me) and I wouldn’t treat anyone differently on just having read an article that may or may not apply to them. I have seen another side of the institution though that knowledge will remain with me.

The short answer is, “Don’t believe the hype.”. Much of what you hear about the military is exaggerated for ratings, and a lot of it is outright false. For instance, not all of us sailors are gay. And we are really no more likely to rape and beat people than your average Texan.

I wish I could go on, but it’s 1AM….

@jerv “exaggerated for ratings?” what ratings?

@Jellie Fortunately, the human mind works another way as well: by you being able to somewhat control the way it thinks and processes information. Amazing, huh?

@Blackberry – A woman that gets raped (I’m talking in general now) distrusts and to some extent fears men for the rest of her life. Can you convince her to “control the way she thinks” because of course not ALL men are rapists.

It may not be the most rational of reactions but it’s instinctive and all the mind controlling in the world can’t kill that. You can process information in longer periods of time which you do. But the first reaction of your mind and body cannot be helped.
I remember I was once about to board a train and I had a huge suitcase (full of books) with me which I’d have to haul up a couple of small steps to get from the platform to the train. I was dreading it because it was heavy and I was genuinely afraid I’d dislocate a joint or something. Without me asking, this man behind me who’d seen me struggling to wheel it around, picked up my suit case and put it on the train for me. Although I don’t believe in it, I prayed for that man. That man was Jewish, I know because he had a kippah on. From that point on, everytime I see a man in a kippah or with sidecurls I am reminded of that man and have positivie feelings for the person immediately. Your instinctive feelings cannot be helped. This doesn’t mean I’d trush every Jewish person with my life and let a stranger live in my house but those are the feelings that come up. Amazing.

Not at all and in the years I served I never heard of such BS and my son-in-law who’s on his last four years before retirement had not heard of this either.. It’s probably solitary instances that (just like in this world) the media takes it to the limit leaving rumors to continue the isolated occurance (that had probably already been taken care of it the tribunal).. I can not see such goings on as it would be a direct challenge toward authority.. Maybe in the mafia army but not in our men’s (and women’s) service, sorry.. the brass would not tolerate such insubordination.

I suppose it’s not bad if they can be careful. If not better not try it.

I disagree that one in three women are raped in the military. But I can also see why as many as one in three would claim rape.

When I was in, the single women in the military could face court martial if they got pregnant. It was often easier to claim rape by an unknown assailant than to admit to consensual contact that resulted in pregnancy. They seldom would be jailed, but they would often lose their health and tuition assistance benefits

@Jellie Suppose that you own a newspaper or a news channel. Do you want people reading/watching you or your competition? Remember, the only way top make money there is if people watch prefer your news outlet over others; advertisers won’t give you money if you don’t have an audience big enough to be worth paying you to print/air their ads with you. That means you need shocking headlines to grab peoples interest and get their eyes focused on you. Get it?

Now, given how aggressively the military prosecutes certain things, charging a serviceman with Rape is a surefire way to never see them again… and about the only way since, unlike the civilian world, you can’t quit or change workplaces to get away.

Also bear in mind the type of scrutiny they live under. Plenty of critics would love to say bad things about them, even if their claims are inflated or completely fabricated. Yes, sometimes the people in the military do bad things, but so do civilians. The difference is that most civilians don’t have a small but vocal group that wants them to not exist.

I’ve heard so many reports about women being intimidated and afraid to report these crimes. It shows up later with high rates of PTSD among women that are not based on combat trauma. It happens in the Air Force and every other branch of the military. The DOD provides reports of its prevalence every year. There are both open and restricted versions. Who know what is really going on in the restricted versions.

I suspect it is the product of a culture of male domination and violnce. I have no idea how often it happens, but I’m sure it is hidden, just as rape is shameful in the overall society and few women report it and no one knows how much is going on. The article also links to data that says that 27% of men experience military sexual trauma which includes any unwanted physical contact of a sexual nature (compared to 60% for women). Department of Defense: 2006 Annual Report on Military Services Sexual Assault

Estimates of rape for one in three for women? American Journal of Industrial Medicine I don’t know. It wouldn’t surprise me if rapes were more prevalent\ in military culture where everyone is trained for violence and trained to suspend feelings and where rape is often used as a tactic to subdue and punish a population. And of course, it doesn’t matter if it is one in three or one in five or one in ten. It’s all too much and to imply that because you haven’t seen it, it must therefore not be important is just wrong.

People who have been in the military have a lot to protect. They don’t want to think of themselves as being part of a culture that might do such a thing. They have an incentive to minimize the extent of this behavior. Plus, if they haven’t ever seen or heard of it, they use their own experience to generalize, which is a logical fallacy, of course.

If the data are gathered honestly and accurately, we need to trust it, personal stories notwithstanding. Unless the individuals here can provide alternative, convincing data to counteract what you have, your data have to stand. I’m not saying we shouldn’t be skeptical. I totally believe we should always be skeptical. I’m just saying that to say something of substance, we need evidence. So far, you are the only one with evidence. Personal anecdotes are evidence, but they aren’t generalizable.

I winder how many of the experts on runaway rape rates in the US Military have actually ever served in the military.

@ETpro Does the DOD count as an expert?

@wundayatta Trained for violence? I was trained to keep the power on (that is what electricians do), to fight fires and perform first aid (things all sailors learn), and to follow procedures and obey rules. Note the lack of combat training in the Navy (aside from the ability to perform under pressure)?

If it were really that prevalent, you would think that I would have noticed. I saw a lot of messed up stuff, but no more of that than I see in civilian life. But since numbers mean more than direct observation by people who have actually served, I suppose it’s almost pointless to argue.

As for PTSD, I can see how spending time doing a job that is utterly against your nature can cause that. Why do you think I don’t want to ever sit in a classroom again? The military really isn’t any place to be if you have feelings, but the claim that it is used as a tactic makes it sound like it is official policy, no different from using AFFF on a Class B fire. If that were the case then explain Article 120 of the UCMJ. In the civilian world, rapists don’t often risk the death penalty.

Of course, the fact that a rather large percentage of rape accusations are false does a great disservice to those that actually are victims, as it makes it difficult to take numbers seriously. And I’m sure that that also leads to genuine rape victims not reporting as well… just like the civilian world. The difference is that the military takes such claims more seriously.

@jerv Sorry, but how do you know that “a rather large percentage of rape accusations are false”? That statement seem “off” and I’m wondering how you made that assessment or came to that conclusion?

@Raven_Rising Depending on which source you trust, between 2 and 90% of all such allegations are false, though most estimates seem to hover around 8%. As for whether that qualities as “large”, that depends on how you look at it. I probably should have said “statistically significant” instead; mea culpa.

Btw, I never meant to imply that most accusations are false, only to say that enough are to warrant caution, and that estimates vary enough that statistics are likewise a bit unreliable/questionable’

@wundayatta Yes, I would call the DOD experts on the military. I also can read, as well. Reading your link, I note that it reports a total of 40 sexual assaults (not rapes, mind you, but all levels of sexual assualt) by or against cadets at the US Military Academies.

Let’s see how that number squares with the claim that 1 of every 3 women in the US military are raped in service. The report makes no mention of the gender of the cadets, or whether they were the aggressor or the victim in the reported incident. But let’s keep this simple, and ignore that. Let’s ass/u/me that all 40 were females and none of them was an aggressor—all were victims. That’s still 40 incidents. There are 4,487 cadets at West Point, 4.400 at Annapolis, 4,417 at the Air Force Academy, and 990 at the US Coast Guard Academy. That’s 14,303 students and the total of ALL sexual assaults, alleged, not confirmed, was 40. Pretty hard to take that number as serious proof that it’s 1 out of 3. The total sexual assault incidence in the Military Academies (what your link led to) was not 33% but 0.35%. That’s 100 times smaller than the reported statistic in the Al Jazeera article the OP mentioned.

@ETpro Thank you for that math lesson!

I spent 13 years in the military during its lowest point. Platoon leaders were fragged in their tents, draftees deserted to Canada, people spit at us when we arrived at the airport, and officers were reduced in rank or just released from service because of downsizing.

At the same time black people were being murdered down in the south and women were gang raped in civilian bars.

I never, in all of my years in the Navy heard of a woman being raped. I know some soldiers raped Vietnamese women but that was very rare.

I met a girl that set up a mini-whorehouse in a dumpster on Guantanamo base but she was not raped and made a good deal of money before she was caught.

I have one daughter that was in the Navy and one in the Army. They were never attacked and I expect that if they were, it would be the attacker that would suffer.

Today with unprecedented numbers of deployments into combat a lot of men crack. Even then, I doubt that they rape anyone. They are much more likely to harm themselves than harm others. I just don’t believe these statistics.