Is "a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction” justification for bullying gays at school?

What the fuck.

That’s such horseshit. It doesn’t surprise me it came from the midwest. World class leaders in providing such crap. (Some of them, not all of them)

They’re not even trying to hide it at this point. These people must really think their religious morals trump all of humanity.

Not at all. We have laws in this land, which trump individual beliefs.

They obviously don’t know ENOUGH about their own religion. The victimised kids and parents will have to take any grievances they have out of State and I hope any bulling problems in Michigan Schools can and will be dealt with on the National Stage. They embarrass themselves.

Another cog in the machine to rage against.

No it is not. This ridiculous law, which we are supposed to believe will decrease bullying, actually condones it. I am disgusted.

All it will take is a Muslim kicking the crap out of a gay Christian “Infidel” for them to re-think this asinine piece of legislation.

WWJB…Who would Jesus bully?

Seriously… No bullying laws existed for the past 10,000 years of recorded history, and look how we turned out… wait,... uhmmm.

There is NO justification for bullying. Period.

I’m with @ANef_is_Enuf. What the fuck?

It’s my sincerely held moral conviction that someone should beat the shit out of these Michigan republicans…

No. Absolutely nuts.

Nothing like a sample of first rate stupid to start the day.

But you know what, that’s ok, no big deal. Just get some gay students together and have them put in writing why they sincerely hold the moral conviction that bullying isn’t acceptable. At that point, from how I interpreted the article, they’re free to take whatever action they like against any bully they find. Because obviously that kind of response would be in line with the Michigan legislature’s way of thinking.

Where do they come up with this shit? Can I get in on this? I could use an extra paycheck for coming up with idiocy all day long.

I truly hate when people muddle their respective religions with their own ignorant opinions.

Isn’t this sweet, gay haters trying to act civilly by morally justifying their vitriol before they spit on your face instead of just coming at you cowardly in the night, pour gasoline on you and set you on fire? They’re all shitfuckers.

I mean can you imagine a Michigan child knowing he could be excused for bullying, yelling something like “I did it for God! I did it because I love Jesus!”-? Jesus!

Hey, it works for the Taliban.

Ok, now I’ve had a chance to actually read the bill.

My first statement was a little harsh – no taking “whatever action”. Basically it sounds like you can essentially say whatever you like so long as the intent (there’s an instant court case) isn’t to harm or substantially (there’s another case) interfere with educational participation. (sections 8, 10B, 10Bi-iv). So, no violence, but you can still say almost anything so long as you are simply expressing your beliefs and if you don’t like it go to court and let the judges straighten it out.

I stand by my first rate stupid comment though. This has the potential to cause a lot of needless problems because it essentially sanctions all sides to state their beliefs at will so long as it’s not disrupting the educational process until the courts get around to draw lines (which always works so well). Mix that with kids, particularly teenagers, yeah… what could possibly go wrong?

It’s sort of scary how on one hand they invoke protecting the first amendment yet on the other hand only doing it for those who really believe in what their saying.

I am continually revising my view of humanity downward.

@thorninmud Wait, that was brilliant. Maybe to oppose this awful Michigan part of the bullying law, protesters could use that slogan. “Dump the Michigan Taliban amendment!”

@wonderingwhy Thanks for the more objective approach, but I’m still angry. Lol.

I have always questioned naming particular groups in hate crimes, I even question it for protection of equal rights in general. Our declaration of Independence states we are all created equal, and all have equal rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That our laws have to specifically protect groups is a dissappointment, and an obvious statement of just how prejudiced and discriminating the country can be.

As to this specific law in Michigan, a no bullying law should be enough, we should not have to name specific groups in my opinion. Certainly religious people should not get some sort of exception, that is out right ridiculous.

I also, similar to the author of the article, am saddened to see this happen in Michigan. I lived there for three years while in school, have many friends there, and all but one of them are pro gay rights and pro gay marriage, and the majority of my friends there are Republicans.

Is it justification for terrorism?

From what I see at my son’s school, bulling is certainly a form of terrorism. He doesn’t know where they are going to hit or when. He just knows that they are out there, yelling threats at him, calling him names and it is only a matter of time. I am his Homeland Security. I don’t do strip searches. I call your mothers. Much more effective.

I think @wundayatta is absolutely onto something. Parallels can and should be drawn here.

@wundayatta That is a very good question.

How very christian of the bullies.

I’m grossed out. But I’m not surprised. We think we have to respect other people’s religious beliefs more than we have to respect people. That’s not news.

Um, NEWS FLASH: Gays aren’t the only ones being bullied!

@atarah09 Sure, but we are not discussing bullying in general in this q. But thanks for the update.

@atarah09 what does that have to do with this ludicrous law?

Do any of you have a source you can link me to? I am interested in the effort to demonize Repubicans.

@atarah09 Oh yeah, that’s what we’re doing here. We are using kids’ bullying experiences in an effort to demonize Republicans. As if that kind of twisting around of the facts were necessary, in any case. Republicans are excellent at demonizing themselves to the general public. As to the actual relevant information to this question, the link is in the details up there, if you even bothered to read them.

@atarah09

“Um, NEWS FLASH: Gays aren’t the only ones being bullied!”

That isn’t justification for bullying gays either.

“Do any of you have a source you can link me to? I am interested in the effort to demonize Repubicans.”

There’s a source linked in the details of the question.
Besides, what’s wrong with demonizing anyone, as long as the demonizers have a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction to justify said demonizing? ;-)

@atarah09 You’re going to lose. I will destroy your words, personally. here’s to hoping someone pms you quickly about how insane(ly in favor of justice) Simone is and that you shouldn’t bother. It’ll save us both time, I’m too sick to deal with you. You might as well just accuse me of bullying you now so that we skip like 5 more gems you’re going to write.

@atarah09 I’m not really following your logic here. What exactly does this thread have to do with demonizing the Republicans? Although if you want to find threads demonizing Republicans you shouldn’t have any trouble doing so here.

First off, I don’t agree with bullying laws. Kids will be kids. It’s the job of parents to teach their children right from wrong. No child should be bullied, but it’s inevitable. Whether you’re straight, gay, red or pink- it is wrong regardless!

@atarah09 Great, we agree then. One big happy family. Although, if you live in reality, gay kids are bullied more than straight kids. Trans kids are bullied more than gay kids. Etc.

<—————Hey, WTF demonized my baby picture?!

Whoever did that better have a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction to justify it!

@Incoherency_ LOL!!

@Simone_De_Beauvoir This isn’t a battle of who gets the worse end of the bullying deal- if you REALLY live in reality, mentally challenged children get bullied more than gays. But I find this ridiculous because bullying is bad regardless. We’ve all experienced some form of bullying, as I said before it’s inevitable.

@atarah09 – I’m waiting for you to explain why religious-motivated bullying gets a pass.

@atarah09 Ah, now at least I get why you defend Republicans. Sorry, bad joke. I wouldn’t want to insult the mentally ill that way. Also, evidence?

@tom_g Are you blind? How many times did I say no one deserves to be bullied? “Religious-motivated bullying” doesn’t even make sense.

@atarah09 – Nice! See, the problem is I can say “nobody deserves to be murdered”, but if I then support a bill that allows religious-motivated killings, then I am not really making much sense. See my confusion?

@atarah09 Yet, that is what’s being protected in Michigan. But then again, Michigan never makes sense. Also, don’t worry, Republicans spit on the mentally ill, as well. Happy reading.

@atarah09 are you saying that because “kids will be kids” bullies should be allowed to harass children, sometimes to the point of suicide, without any reprecussions? That is as nutty as this law! I agree that this is not a discussion of which group is picked on the most, but would you care to provide figures to back up your assertion that mentally challenged kids are the biggest targets?

@tom_g in @atarah09‘s defense s/he isn’t saying religious motivated bullying should get a pass, s/he seems to be saying all bullying should get a pass.

@tom_g – Actually, I am all for capital punishment, so I don’t agree with that statement entirely.

LOL Next, you guys are going to want a law passed which prohibits children from calling other children names. Again- inevitable.

@atarah09 OH LOLOL, I love how this is hilarious to you. I love how inevitable it is that you’re incapable to stop this cycle. Do you have children? Do they learn this from you?

I just think it’s amusing how you guys are all bent out of shape over… bullying. We’ve all experienced it and obviously we’re all in good health. It all starts at home, and with the amount of divorces, single parents, etc., I think that has a lot to do with it as well.

@atarah09 Don’t worry, I get all bent out of shape for many reasons. There’s so much dumb to work with..tell me, why do you no longer speak of demonizing Republicans – or was that statement a pathetically old cry for attention?

@atarah09 which side of bullying are divorces and single parents responsible for? Do these homes produce the bullies or the bullied? How does that work exactly? Please tell us, to what level does bullying have to rise before you believe there should be some punishment for the perpetrator?

@SuperMouse Children absorb all sorts of things from their parents and surroudings; doesn’t take a scientist to figure that out.

@atarah09 So then it makes sense that children of Republicans or religious crazies absorb from their parents homophobia. Again, we agree.

I just love how you label Republicans and “religious crazies” as homophobic. You certainly have a lot of growing up to do; I’ll give you space :)

Facepalm where’s incendiary_dan when I need a break?

Oh, I have come across people who believe this, even some people on this site. In their mind, gay kids deserve to be bullied because it’s a negative consequence of them choosing to be homosexual and hopefully the bullying and harsh reality will compel them to rethink their choice and show them that homosexuality isn’t the way to go. Because, you know, bullying people to the point of suicide is commanded by the Bible, somewhere in Hezekiah 6, I believe…

Yeah, those damn faggots! What have they ever done to contribute to society? Oh wait…

It’s simple; bullying is wrong unless you really, really want to do it and then it becomes all right.

@atarah09 “I just think it’s amusing how you guys are all bent out of shape over… bullying. We’ve all experienced it and obviously we’re all in good health.”

Hmm. I’ve had a car stolen, and I’m in good health. No reason to get bent out of shape over it, or make it illegal. And of course there are people who have survived murder attempts or rape or torture and have survived. No need to get bent out of shape. Live and let live, I say! Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. Wouldn’t you agree?

Oh wait. Bullying does kill some kids. Oh who cares. Most of them survive.

Do you go in for blood sport much?

Bullying of anyone should not be tolerated anywhere, for any reason.

From the link…

The anti-bullying legislation now moves to the Michigan house of representatives, where both religious and secular Michiganders are lobbying to have the religious exemption stripped and reporting requirements inserted. Given the body’s Republican majority, I’m not holding my breath. But stranger things have happened. After all, the Lions are 6–2 so far this season.

I’m emailing my congressperson right now. Let’s hope that the exemption is eliminated and the reporting feature included.

@DominicX I haven’t heard that, and I don’t really interpret it that way. I see it as many Christians feel under attack themselves, they feel their freedoms are being stripped. I don’t think they want permission to bully, I think it is more they are making a point that if they try to talk to a gay child about their beliefs regarding homosexuality, they don’t want to be accused of bullying when they were simply stating a point of view. It’s a fine line of course when it comes to schoolage children.

@JLeslie I don’t think the people being accused of bullying are being accused of it because they’re stating their “controversial beliefs about homosexuality” politely to a gay kid at school. I think it’s because they’re actually bullying them, calling them gross for being gay, calling them faggots, telling them to stay away from them, etc. But I guess until I see proof, I can’t know either way.

@DominicX I actually agree with assuming they are actually bullying. I am talking in the more abstract about why Republicans might have wanted to add what they did to the law.

[Mod says] Remember to disagree without being disagreeable, and no accusations please!

Seriously? My comment was modded? Fine, I’ll say it again, only I’ll give the short version.

@atarah09 Saying that there shouldn’t be anti-bullying laws and that “kids will be kids” is stupid. Yes, kids will be kids, but that doesn’t automatically equate to “kids will be flaming assholes who bully other kids so viciously that the victims commit suicide.”

oh boo, it was so funny without all these moderations.

MODS

EEEk… shocking that there needed to be so many moderated comments. Eeeek. And in a social topic as well….

anyway… I refer to my earlier posts.

My sister-in-law was appalled when I told her that an anti-bullying law was passed that basically exempts bullies who have religious or moral reasons. But when I explained that it was a loophole that technically condones Christian kids bullying gay kids, she said, “Oh, well that’s fine. I don’t mind that.”

Yet another WTF moment for me today.

@WillWorkForChocolate Oy.

Yeah.

Response moderated (Personal attack against bullies)

Sweet holy moly, I see she got her knee jerk reaction. As chuckleheads have piggybacked off the Occupy Oakland movement, there will be those who will attempt to cloak themselves in religion, (and most will use a Christ based religion) to absolve themselves of any wrongdoing. If they are truly followers of Christ, and their walk is true, they would not be harassing anyone, not even gays. Making the religiously based harassment and oxymoron.

@JLeslie wrote: ’ I think it is more they are making a point that if they try to talk to a gay child about their beliefs regarding homosexuality, they don’t want to be accused of bullying when they were simply stating a point of view.’

Why would a student go up to another student and ‘try to talk to them about their beliefs’ regarding that student’s sexual orientation?

How about a white student walks up to a black student and ‘tries to talk to them about their beliefs’ on racial integration in schools? Or perhaps the black student is dating a white student. Should it be OK to talk to that black student and tell them their beliefs are on inter-racial dating?

Some things are just offensive. If I was raising an child to believe that homosexuality was a choice and that those who chose it are damned to hell and are perverse, sick sinners, I would at least try to tell them to keep it to themselves.

And Michigan and Republicans are not the only ones trying to defend infringing on a person’s rights with a ‘blame the victim’ tactic. Anyone see this article from the BBC?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-15552623

It just makes me sick to my stomach to think that some people truly believe it’s okay to bully others if you have a strong moral or religious reason for doing so. There are no exceptions, dangit! Bullying is bullying!

Someone else on this thread mentioned terrorism and I used the same example on a post I made on facebook. Giving Christian kids a “free pass” to bully others, simply because they have strong religious convictions would be the same as condoning extremist Muslim terrorism: “Oh, you think I’m an infidel and my way of life disgusts you? Well that’s great! Come on over and attack me for it. You get a free pass because you have strong religious beliefs that say I’m worthless and should be put to death, so have at it!”

Using religious beliefs to justify bullying gay kids is just as bad as using “deep south” beliefs to justify bullying black kids. It makes no sense.

@cazzie Yeah, I was trying to be fair, trying to hope that the Republicans in this case weren’t all being asshole’s, but I guess maybe I was being naive and idealistic. Look at @WillWorkForChocolate comment about about her SIL, hateful bitch in this instance (no offense to @WillWorkForChocolate who obviously is disgusted anyone would think it is ok for anyone to bully anyone for any reason, especially a child).

I think being gay might come up as a topic in schools possibly, but the more I think about, the more I realize it would never be ok to speak negatively about it in school. I wouldn’t allow kids to say something negative about Jews, blacks, Hispanics, why would this be any different.

Thanks for the well thought out reply, @JLeslie.

@JLeslie You’re absolutely correct. I think it’s horrible for kids to be bullies, no matter their reason for it. I’m a pretty bitchy individual, but I think there’s a huge difference between heatedly disagreeing with someone/“calling them out” for certain things, and actually bullying them. Bullying is actual verbal and/or physical violence.

I lived that difference, firsthand, when I was still in school. Thank God the vice principal who witnessed it wasn’t one of those adult morons who thought I should be suspended for fighting back. You see that too much nowadays too. Kids are bullied and bullied and bullied, and when they finally decide to fight back, they get in trouble for it. It’s bullshit.

I think kids who finally stand up to their attackers should get some sort of award, and the bully should be publicly called on it, then permanently expelled. Like at a school assembly or something. =0)

@WillWorkForChocolate Yes, I think at some point, depending on the circumstance, kids have to fight back. Unfortunately. And, I don’t think the child having been bullied should be punished in the same way as the bully himself, I agree. I tend to not be keen on zero tolerance policies.

So, I have a question. If a Christian child simply said to a gay child in school, “I think being gay is wrong, people won’t like you,” is that bullying? Or, what is it?

I don’t really consider that to be bullying. I would consider that to be unnecessary and rude, but not bullying.

Bullying, to me, (using the Christian to gay example) would be the religious kid calling a gay kid “faggot” or “homo” or “queerbag” or something along those lines, and either repeatedly taunting the kid or even threatening him. Especially if there’s any physical contact.

@WillWorkForChocolate Originally I was thinking that maybe that was what the Christians in this case were getting at, that bullying might be defined too broadly. But, in fact, after @cazzie‘s comment, I thought to myself, for the gay child those words (the sentence I used as an example) could really negatively affect him. It could feel abusive, an afront, even though the Christian child might not mean or intend any malice.