Do you support the use of doulas, midwives, and/or traditional medicines?

I think people were reacting to the suggestion of using natural abortifacients, not doulas and midwives.

@Aethelflaed People provided links showing how dangerous some of these drugs were. I was interested to note that Pennyroyal has been linked to something like six deaths in the last century, and several of those are uncertain. In one of the other articles about the dangers of natural abortifacients, it tells people not to use them except as advised by a midwife. Given that many modern, commonly-used drugs kill several orders of magnitude more people yearly than Pennyroyal has apparently killed in a century, and given that even the cited advice not to use natural abortifacients contains the exception that it may be used with the assistance of a midwife, I am still surprised at the vehemence of the reaction even if people were reacting exclusively to the use of natural abortifacients.

My stepdaughter who lives in the suburbs of Baltimore, Maryland, has a friend who just had her second healthy and beautiful daughter. Both times she used a doula and a midwife. Granted, she delivered in a hospital setting with a water birth. But, nonetheless, she didn’t have an OB deliver her children. She is 32 years old.

In this particular circumstance, I have absolutely no problem with using a doula and/or midwife. There are circumstances where I think any qualified midwife or doula would counsel the mother to use a board certified, licensed OB. I think the same is true for most other scenerios I could think of off the top of my head. Sometimes it does no harm. Others, it is wise to consult with a professional schooled in medicine.

It reminds me of the Tim Minchin video that a fellow jelly has posted on their personal information page. “By definition, alternative medicine, has either not been proved to work, or been proved, not to work. Do you know what they call ‘alternative medicine’ that’s been proved to work? Medicine.”

@SmashTheState Ok, well, doulas and midwives aren’t free, and often involve more out-of-pocket expenses than traditional medicine, so on a question about not being able to afford traditional medicine, it ended up coming across as a bit more “go into your garden, snip some of this, brew it as a tea, and go the home abortion route”, because there’s no financial upside to midwives/doulas in that situation.

I’m very skeptical of alternative medicine in general so I wouldn’t choose it for myself, but someone else can go ahead if they so please.

@Aethelflaed A half-hour consultation with a doula/midwife is going to be much less expensive than an abortion. Furthermore, given the circumstances, they may be willing to charge what the client could afford. In any case, for people to tell me I have “blood on my hands” for even the suggestion seemed a little out of line to me.

@SmashTheState Abortions at Planned Parenthood are free.

There are some people who are fearful of the safety and efficiency and motives behind natural treatments, and there are some people who are fearful of the safety and efficiency and motives behind conventional medicine.
I fall somewhere between the two. I believe that our bodies, our health, are multi-faceted and one single approach is not always the best. I don’t think that science trumps nature or that nature trumps science, rather that they should work together, as they do in most other cases.
I do have concerns about the fact that I don’t know a single woman who has had a vaginal delivery in the last 5–6 years. All of my friends and family with young children were induced, scheduled for cesarean, or giving an emergency cesarean. I’m 29, the majority of my friends and cousins are in the same age range, and are all somewhat recently married, having children… I know a lot of people who are pregnant or who have recently given birth. I do not have biological children, but I would like to be absolutely certain that if I get pregnant, the person delivering my child has my best interest and the best interest of my child in mind at all times. I’m not saying that wasn’t the case for all the women I know, but I know that simply witnessing how birth seems to always be scheduled is enough to make me a little bit wary.
I suppose I’m saying that I support both sides. I wouldn’t argue with someone who chose a midwife/doula, or someone who chose a hospital setting. I wouldn’t argue with someone who chose a combination of the two. I could see myself considering them all as options.

I’d like people to note that there’s a difference between “traditional medicine” and “alternative medicine.” All traditional medicine is alternative, but not all alternative medicine is traditional. The two terms can’t be used interchangably.

Stevia is an herb which has been grown and used in South America for centuries. It is 400 to 600 times sweeter than sugar, contains no calories, and the only side effect ever noticed after many studies is a slight reduction in the fertility rate of male rats after herculean doses. It was banned in the US under pressure from Monsanto — the makers of Nutrasweet — until Coke and Pepsi developed their own patented, genetically-modified stevia (under the brand names Truvia and Purevia respectively) from frankenlettuce, after which the FDA removed the blanket ban. It is still illegal to refer to stevia as “sweet,” and can only be sold as an herbal supplement. I find it personally unreasonably to put stevia — traditional medicine — into the same category as ear candling and faith healing.

@SmashTheState I think the problem is that I doubt midwives know enough about drugs to advise people about taking them. Yes, natural remedies are drugs. The problem with them is that their safety and efficacy is rarely well researched and they aren’t regulated. There simply aren’t any experts on most them. The fact that Pennyroyal has at best only killed 6 people the last 100 years, may not seem so bad, especially if it is assumed the Pennyroyal was taken improperly. But the fact that it’s only possibly killed 6 doesn’t say anything about it efficacy. Yes it probably won’t kill you, but that isn’t exactly a selling point is it?

My negativity on the matter is really just disgust and distrust of hucksters and well-meaning people but uninformed people selling others on medical treatment that has unknown medical value or could be outright dangerous. It should be pointed out that even a harmless treatment is dangerous if is ineffective and taken in lieu of conventional, but effective treatment.

Of course anyone is free to do as they see fit with their bodies and health. And I don’t see anything objectional about midwives delivering babies. Though personally I’d want a doctor or nurse present incase there were complications beyond a midwive’s ability to cope with.

Dont get me started. I am a huge believer in alternative medicine and midwives, there are too many germs in hospitals, think MRSA and too many deaths/illnesses from pharmaceuticals. But if someone overdoses on one herb the pharma industry goes, “See? see? We told you herbs aren’t safe!” when herbal medicine has been used for thousands of years. Allopathic medicine is comparatively new. But , no; if I broke a bone I wouldn’t want a handful of wheatgrass.
I may be mistaken but I think if one uses a midwife in the warmth and comfort of their own home there are doctors who can be called if anything goes wrong which is not often.

@fundevogel The same article, the one you posted, mentions that the success rate for natural abortifacients is about 45%. Not stunning, certainly, but considerably higher than zero. And wildly more safe and effective than “jumping off a chair” and other such home remedies often used by people without access to either safe abortions or midwife-supervised natural abortifacients. And the reason so many traditional medicines are “rarely well researched” is because there’s no profit to be made in marketing a medicine which can be grown in a window garden for free.

I haven’t read all the other answers, so I hope I am not repeating anything.
Traditional medicine has become the most dangerous way to have a baby. My daughter had 3 children in the hospital and her 4th at home. She did a lot of research and discovered that the interventions mandated by insurance companies cause way to may dangerous C-Sections, and doctors are way to quick to intervene to “hurry up” a birth than is really safe for the baby. There is a reason our infant mortality rate is higher than Cuba.
Even though her insurance would have paid for a hospital birth, she paid (I believe) $3000 for a midwife at home in order to do what she thought was best for her baby.

@SmashTheState “The same article, the one you posted, mentions that the success rate for natural abortifacients is about 45%. Not stunning, certainly, but considerably higher than zero. And wildly more safe and effective than “jumping off a chair” and other such home remedies often used by people without access to either safe abortions or midwife-supervised natural abortifacients. ”

Yes. It probably is safer and more effective than jumping off a chair. But no one had suggested that, or throwing herself down stairs or a coat hanger.

And frankly, you couldn’t sell birth control or abortion with a 45% success rate without it being natural. 90% success is on the low end of modern family planning methods.

“And the reason so many traditional medicines are “rarely well researched” is because there’s no profit to be made in marketing a medicine which can be grown in a window garden for free.”

That maybe, but it doesn’t make taking them any less of a crap shoot.

I support all three, though I am skeptical of untested traditional remedies. I was born with just my mother, my father, and a midwife in the room. So was my mother, and so was my grandmother. My children will be born in the same way. I looked at the question you linked, and I think you were clear that you wanted the abortifacients to be used only under observation of a trained professional. You just recommended a different group of trained professionals, some of whom will give free advice when the patient is in financial trouble.

No, although it comes pretty close with the PA’s at Kaiser.

Midwives! Hospitals suck testicals. Did you know that many times a doctor will suggest a C-section because it is more expensive, even though it’s not necessary? I don’t have a source, but I read it in the book Freakonomics. And it shouldn’t be hard to believe, considering how disgusting pharmaceutical companies are as well.

I have no problem with natural remedies to an extent. Just because something is “natural” doesn’t mean it’s safe. Opium and poison ivy, etc are natural but deadly. We have both chemical and natural elements in our bodies. Chemicals in traditional medicines often are just man made duplicates of chemicals we already have, as in dopamine for the brain. I prefer natural births, water births, midwives, etc. to sterile hospital births.

@EmptyNest Technically natural products are just as much chemical as anything else. Everything is made of chemicals. Water is a chemical for crying out loud. People just seem to omit the more neutral, common place, inert or unprocessed ones from the term. </pettifogging pedantry>

But I know what you mean.

I think doulas, midwives, and traditional medicine are fine as long as they’re not used to the exclusion of western, modern medicine.

Planned home birth is associated with a tripling of neonatal mortality. I would not take that risk, personally.

Anything is OK until there is a crisis during birth. Then, I would go with Western trained physicians. I suspect many of you would too. But if not, well good luck.

To answer the title question, I like the idea of midwives and doulas. The traditional Western medicine model of obstetrics has some serious problems. I think insurances should help pay for midwives, doulas, birthing centers, etc (though, seeing as how insurances don’t pay for a lot of things, those are pretty low down on my priority list of ‘things insurance should pay for’), and I think birthing centers need to be more than just a regular maternity ward with cushier pillows. But I also think Western medicine, and Western obstetrics has a lot to offer, and that the current realities of alternative medicine/natural birth/home birth/etc have their own serious problems, so I don’t really feel any more comfortable choosing that over Western medicine. I think there can be a middle ground, but I don’t usually see that being advocated. And I think that in order for midwives and doulas to become a viable option, they need to have both higher standards of education and regulation and have a more clear and visible way for Jane Q Public to find out what she can expect from midwives, doulas, and if this specific midwife or doula is to be trusted.

Yes. Coincidentally, I was just writing about some of my thoughts on the subject. In particular, I think it’s important simply to have effective medicines that don’t require exploitative and destructive industrial infrastucture, and that’s not as viable if we don’t support it but instead cloud it in superstition and propaganda.

One thing to consider, also, is that natural remedies are often used in conjunction, provided they don’t mix to have strange reactions. This is particularly true of abortifacients and contraceptives.

P.S. Good to see you around again, @SmashTheState.

@nikipedia I’ve read a lot of research completely contrary to that. For the most part, it sounds like a lot of studies are taking selective samples, but since I haven’t looked into the subject in great detail, I can’t make any definitive claims about it. Like a lot of things, it seems that too much money is wrapped up in it to get a clear picture.

@incendiary_dan, the study I cited was a meta-analysis of 342,056 planned home births and 207,551 hospital births. The inclusion criteria for studies are clearly listed on the link above.

No. It’s BS.

I am a HUGE supporter of midwives, doulas and alternative medicine. The so called “professional” doctors and nurses are the ones who caused me to have an awful pregnancy and they damn near killed me several times in the aftermath of my first labor and delivery. Literally almost killed me with their fucking incompetence. With midwives and a doula, I had a perfect pregnancy and a perfect labor and delivery.

I had another doctor who gave me some bullshit reason for needing Zoloft for “post-partum depression” while ignoring the fact that I actually had a true physical issue that needed attention…which was caused by the nurse present at my first delivery.

Then I had yet another doctor who heard me explain all my symptoms (classic appendicitis symptoms), stuck his finger up my ass and sent me home, only for me to collapse not long after from the excruciating pain of my appendix getting ready to burst. I’ve dealt with the incompetence and sheer idiocy far too many times now to trust traditional doctors with my well-being.

And don’t even get me started on alternative medicine. Most jellies think I’m a whackjob, that I’m full of shit and that I’m insane for believing it works, but until they’ve experienced what I’ve experienced, they can keep singing the same old ignorant tune about alternative medicine being bogus/bullshit/placebo and they can kiss my lunatic ass. And my husband’s. And my oldest daughter’s. And my youngest daughter’s. And my dog’s. And both of my cats’. And my friend’s dog. And my father-in-law’s. I could go on…

Thanks, @fundevogel, I understand your point. In the 70’s there was a big issue about natural vs. chemical. People viewed chemical as unnatural and think if something is natural, that automatically means it’s safe and likewise, if it’s chemical it must be unsafe.

Yes.

An x-g/f of mine was very against the “status-quo” of how birth is handled at least in America. The whole “rush-rush-this is a medical procedure” approach by many doctors, who are by in large trained to make the birthing process as quick as possible as if it were some kind of malady…

She kind of turned me to an in the middle on the subject person. Personally I would want the future mother of my children to be in a hospital just in case something goes wrong, so there are doctors and equipment to come to the rescue. But I would want it to be the most relaxed approach possible, and the most natural (save for pain killers, that’s up to the future lady)... so in that aspect I would probably favor the mid-wife or doula.

I love midwives, and used them for my last two pregnancies. I much preferred the midwife births to my first one, which was in the same hospital but with an ob/gyn. (Delivery at home wasn’t even an option for my high-risk pregnancies, but even if it was, I would have chosen the hospital in case of emergencies.)

However, I’m not cool with alternative medicines, for the most part. I want hard science behind my medicines.

@augustlan I didn’t know there were midwives working out of hospitals. If I were having a baby I think that is how I’d want to do it. It does really bother me that modern delivery has multiplied the use of procedures that should only be necessary in complicated pregnancies. You really do get the impression that hospitals have figured out just how to delivery babies as expensively as possible.

That said, I’d still want to be in a hospital in case some thing went wrong. I was a breech birth. I don’t know if a midwife could have delivered me.

@fundevogel . Midwife’s are more trained than doctors to deliver Breach births. Doctors will convert a breach birth to a C section these days

@Judi But would you want to take the risks of delivering a breech vaginally?

The link you posted suggests employing “acupuncture, chiropractic techniques and certain exercises” to reposition baby…

@fundevogel , I feel lucky that I never had to make the choice, but I do believe that it IS a choice and the doctors shouldn’t force women into surgeries they don’t want.

@Judi Hmm, I agree but…but that’s because I put the mother’s autonomy above the baby so long as it’s inside of her. It does seem inherently riskier to me.

@nikipedia Thanks for the non-answer. In case you forgot, I’ve worked in research as well and don’t need the definition of a meta-analysis linked. But thanks for the effort.

@fundevogel My youngest is 14 (today, in fact!), so this was a while ago. MY OB/GYN office has several midwives in their practice, along with the docs. Since then, Maryland (where I lived at the time) insurance laws have become so restrictive that midwives can’t really deliver babies there anymore. They still do well-woman stuff, though.

@augustlan That’s a shame. One more reason to impotently shake a fist at insurance companies.

Agreed. It sucks.

I looked into the statistics some more, and the confusion is definitely warranted. @nikipedia posted the meta-analysis showing overall that home births have more cases of complications that lead to death. This is true. However, we see that home births assisted by midwives are not more likely to have problems. The statistics seem to skew against home births, but a closer look shows the factor that is really important is the presence of a trained expert, not the location. Just today NPR played a story about infant and mother mortality being drastically reduced (the precise percentage is contended) in Afghanistan because of the increase in the number of trained midwives.

So I really stand by stance of heavily supporting “alternative” medical systems. To do otherwise is to drive it underground and leave it open to charlatanism and superstition, not to mention leaving out a valuable way to view health and wellness.

@incendiary_dan, here is the full text of the actual article. The study does not compare home births with and without midwives; it compares the outcomes of births that were supposed to happen at home (whether they did or not), and those that were supposed to happen at a hospital with a midwife or doctor (again, whether they did or not).

My interpretation of these data is that women who plan home births tend to be lower-risk pregnancies.