Christians, how do you feel about athletes praying to God for a victory?

not a christian
This is wrong on so many levels.
1. It is insulting to god because you waste your and its time on praying for something so trivial while (and I am pretty certain of that) they barely ever pray for starving children in Africa.
2. It is insulting to the team they pray for because by praying they essentially say “Hey team, you are not good enough to win on your own so I am asking for divine intervention, idiots!”
3. As an alternative to 2., it tells the team “Hey, you do not have to work hard to win. You can sit on your lazy arses, because god is going to make you win, lol.”

Good point. Well, I try not to do things like this but sometimes I slip up. LOL But no; I don’t really think God would involve her/himself in the results of a game. It’s just a habit some have and it is similar to simply hoping they’ll win. I won’t call it “unChristian’ but rather being frivolous and hopeful. wink. Prayer is more a comfort , I think, than goal seeking behavior. And whenever we imagine it has worked it can become a constant in one’s life. Personally I think prayer is just good for our mental and physical health. It is that comforting.

Prayer is a personal thing. Or at least it should be.

If some QB (or any other player) wants to spend his time praying, who am I to tell him not to? It’s none of my business.

It’s like an infant rubbing a soft blue blanket. If it feels good, then what’s the harm?

Doesn’t bother me a bit. Everyone has their own version of God. For an atheist to pray to “god” that their team would win sounds like an oxymoron to me, since they don’t believe in any god. Their “god” certainly doesn’t resemble my God in any way that I can think of, but it certainly doesn’t bother me.

@snowberry
athlete, not atheist.

I don’t see what’s wrong with it. 90% of the rest of the athletes don’t believe in God anyway, so what do they have to be afraid of? Unless there is something to prayer after all. Go Tebow!

@ragingloli Oh. (facepalm). LOL

Still doesn’t bother me. It’s between them and God how they approach their game. I’d expect that asking God to let me win cuz I wannna win wouldn’t bring much fruit anyway. The Christians I know who pray before a game ask God to let them bring glory to Him in how they play.

Why would it be wrong to pray for your team to perform at the optimum it’s been training for? To ask that everyone be the strongest and best they can be? I think you’re extrapolating a bit to interpret that a prayer for a win is the same as a prayer for the other team’s loss. It’s not. One outcome may depend on the other, but the intent is not the same.

It always gets me when there is someone on each side praying to win. It’s like making God flip a coin to choose.

Alternative question: If a Christian team prays together for victory, and they oppose a Muslim team that prays together for victory, and the Muslim team wins, do the Christians accept that they should convert to Islam?

@zenvelo – sort of shoots the whole idea of a just an impartial god. Or are they praying to different gods? In which case – oops, there goes monotheism.

Prayers and football do not mix, unless a player is physically hurt, while playing.

I believe there is a time and place for everything. Praying to win a sport game of any kind, is out of line.

Pray for the needy, pray for the sick, but not to win a footbal game.

“God is always on the side of the big battalions.”
—Voltaire

@elbanditoroso Same God, telling the Christians: “In your face”.

I have been to a number of Catholic High School games, usually there is a prayer for safety and good sport.

It baffles me that anybody would have an issue with this. Those that say leave prayer for the more important facets of life like starvation and the peace on earth. Why? Why can’t we pray for both? I’m pretty sure if God is up there with his infinite wisdom he’s not going to forget about the starving children in Africa because he gave the Broncos a hail mary. Also to those who say don’t waste your prayer on trivial things like winning a football game and only pray for things that are really important. Would you say the same thing about people’s money. Don’t use any of it on trivial things like an Iphone 4s. Why buy a $200 Tebow jersey. Send that money to Africa or buy someone starving a sandwich. Don’t buy that $25,000 car. Buy the used $10,000 car and send $15K to the Peace Corps. I’d rather see a man kneeling on his knee thanking God for the awesome gifts that have been given to him than some 250 lbs lineman do a belly dance because he sacked the QB, or some receiver pulling a pen out of his sock after he scores a touchdown. Live and let be.

Oh and I’m pretty sure I’ve prayed about a billion times for the Eagles, and they still suck. If God is up there listening, he knows what prayers are the most important.

@critter1982, good answer. God answered my prayers about the Giants Sunday. Maybe you aren’t holding your mouth right when you pray. ; )

@critter1982 Some people do say that about money. Peter Singer is famous for it. Still, I think people find it odd when someone prays for something the other team is also praying for—as if God chooses sides in football.

Well, I suppose he probably supports the Saints.

@SavoirFaire: I absolutely support giving as much money and time as you possibly can to those less fortunate than ourselves. I’m just wondering whether those that are so against praying for a win or thanking God for a blessing whether that blessing be a touchdown or food on the table are also against people spending some of their extra money on trivial consumer goods.

BTW I’m pretty sure God despises the Eagles…It’s probably because of Vick ;)

@bkcunningham: I’ll try another posture :)

As a former christian, I find prayers and religious gestures ostentatious. The people that do it are much like the Pharisees criticized by Christ. All show, no substance.

I think it is silly to pray for a win, but it is their personal decision. Have you heard the actual prayers though? Perhaps they are praying for safety, using good judgment, doing their best. It may put them in the frame of mind they need to focus.

I’m pretty sure the Bible says prayer is supposed to be done in private.

I am no sports fan although I have heard a little about someone praying on the field named Tebow, but I don’t know what team he’s on or what he looks like.
I think an appropriate prayer for an athlete would be to do their best and to honor him. (God)
Making a public spectical of your prayer brings more honor to yourself than to God in my opinion, but again, I’m not real familiar with the people or the circumstances that prompted the question.

I think if the athlete is praying in a country that practices freedom of religion, he’s (or she) free to do so!

As long as it isn’t for an excessive amount of time that would delay the game, LOL

You have to admit that Tebow’s 316 passing yards and yards per completion were kind of inspired.

@bkcunningham I heard on the radio today that viewership was 31.6% for the game too . . .

Don’t forget that Thomas caught the winning pass, @mrrich724. Guess when Thomas’ birthday is?

@bkcunningham stop, stop it right now! LOL

All that’s left is for Tebow to admit that he was begotten and not made.

Seriously. Thomas was born on December 25. And…and…the Bible says, “Thou shalt not be a Steeler.”

It’s a commandment.

I miss Elway. I am that old and pathetic. I loved John.

You shouldn’t want God to be on your team. You should want to be on God’s team.

Sports teams shouldn’t pray for victory. I see nothing wrong with praying no one is seriously injured, but that is hard on morale.

It shows me once more how few Christians today have any idea what their own teacher told them. Jesus, who is quoted in Mat. 6:5–6 , “And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.”

Tebow is reaping his reward. Fame, money, the praise of men. But he clearly doesn’t care rhough about the teachings of his “master” to even read for himself what the Master said.

What is the conclusion to be drawn fro Alabama’s 21–0 victory over LSU?

Alabama’s Baptists prayed more fervently than Louisiana’s?

@ETpro & @YARNLADY: 1 Thessalonians 5:17 says to “pray without ceasing” and the old testament and new testament give a bunch of examples where people prayed in public, especially Jesus. The idea is not to not pray in public, but to not be hypocritical and to only pray in public so people just think you are religious. It’s all about the heart and the reason you are praying. If Tebow is doing it for attention, I agree he isn’t following the teaching of his faith. If he however is truly thanking God he is in no doubt following the teaching of his faith. Additionally, Corinithians teaches people to say Amen at the end of their prayers which means let it be heard.

@critter1982 I think the point, though, is that he has allowed it to become a spectacle. I once gave a sermon on Thessalonians 5:17. “Pray without ceasing” doesn’t mean constant verbal effusion of prayer. It means living prayerfully and thankfully (thus the next part of the verse: “in everything give thanks”). So Tebow has to know that his public prayer is now less about God and more about him. He can thank God privately on the field if he wants, and he can say “Amen” aloud without making it a public event. So while I agree that praying in pubic is not strictly contrary to scripture, it seems clear that allowing your prayer to become a spectacle—as opposed to merely something you do with other believers—is to go against the teachings.

@SavoirFaire: I suppose my point however is that IF his intentions are pure I don’t think it matters whether it’s a spectacle or not. He himself has not created the spectacle but rather the media has blown it way out of proportion.

@critter1982 But at this point, he has to know that it has become a spectacle. That is on him, regardless of how it started out.

@SavoirFaire: I’m sure he knows it is a spectacle. What I’m saying though is it’s all dependant on his intentions even if it’s a spectacle. If he’s doing it for ratings or to better himself I’m in 100% agreement with you. If his intentions are still pure, the fact that it’s a spectacle IMHO, doesn’t matter.

@critter1982 And what I’m saying is that if he knows it is a spectacle, his intentions could not possibly still be pure (if they even were in the first place).

the intentions of politicians and celebrities are never pure

@SavoirFaire: I’m not sure how you can know the intentions of anyone except for yourself.

@critter1982 Even if we accept that intentions are ultimately private, it does not follow that we cannot figure out what they are or what they could be. No intelligent person could maintain pure intentions while knowing what a spectacle this has become because knowledge of how his actions are affecting the world necessarily recontextualizes those actions. If he is not considering how his actions fit into the larger context, that is just as impure as praying for the wrong reasons.

From almightygod‘s twitter: “I apologize to the African children who starved while I was bailing Tebow out yesterday. Er, uh, welcome to Heaven!”

Even if God could be omnipotent and omnipresent it cheapens man’s own accomplishments by attributing everything to him, and at the same time doesn’t say much for God and his multitasking abilities.

@critter1982Thanks for the additional information. To that, I say amen.

@savoirfaire: I disagree, I don’t believe intentions automatically change and become unpure once external forces create an unintended spectacle out of something that was never intended to be such a thing. To believe so is only an assumption.

@critter1982 Just because we disagree doesn’t mean my view is merely an assumption. I have an argument for it, and all you have is a flat denial. Whatever one’s ideal may or may not be, external circumstances limit what an intelligent person can reasonably intend. That is all I am arguing. One can want things that external circumstances do not allow, and one can certainly attempt those things. Regardless, a person who does not consider the external circumstances and focuses only on himself is not being honest about his actions.

Consider the following case: Sam drives to an open field with his AK-47 and sprays bullets around himself in a circle. He doesn’t want to hurt anyone, he just wants to play with his gun. It surely matters whether or not there are other people on the field. If he has failed to consider the external circumstances of his actions, there is some sort of failing on his part. He cannot reasonably intend to fire his gun while harming no one if the field is being used for a family reunion that day.

@SavoirFaire: I’m not disagreeing with your argument and I’m not in flat denial. I am saying you have no way of positively knowing someone elses intentions, unless of course they tell you, and then you are under the assumption they are telling you the truth and/or even fully understand their intentions themselves. You made the statement, “No intelligent person could maintain pure intentions while knowing what a spectacle this has become”. This is an assumption because of my prior statement. Spectacles don’t have to change intentions. For example Rick Warren wrote the book, A Purpose Driven Life. His intention for the book was not to get rich, it was to help people struggling with life understand that there is a greater purpose. His intentions were pure and one could only imagine what he could have done with the money he made from the 30 million books he sold and the money he could make from doing interviews. These external circumstances didn’t change his intentions though. He took 0 royalties from the book, he used none of the money he made on himself or family, he stopped taking a church salary (in fact he paid back 25 years of his salary), he established an HIV fund and he began giving 90% of the rest of his money away to other special needs and lived on 10%. His intentions never changed even though his book became a spectacle and he became one of the most recognized Evangelists in the world. I in fact believe the opposite of what you said. An intelligent person who is grounded in what they believe will never allow spectacles to change their intentions.

I get your case above but I’m also sure you’ll admit that firing an AK-47 into an open field is a bit more extreme than praying at a football game, and undoubtedly one would assume that a person firing the weapon would understand that they could harm someone. A person praying during a football game doesn’t have to consider anyone else at all, since their actions are purely personal and impact nobody else.

@critter1982 First of all, Rick Warren is a horrible bigot. If that’s supposed to be your example of a pure person, then your argument is more suspect than ever. Regardless, his book did not become a spectacle. It became a bestseller. Equivocation fallacies aren’t going to help you here.

Second, every human is capable of judging intentions. It is a basic survival skill that we exercise all the time. It’s why you don’t die every time you drive on the highway. Pretending that the human mind is some ineffable memory may be a popular hobby for some, but it is intellectually barren. Yes, people successfully deceive others from time to time. So what? That our abilities are fallible does not mean they are nonexistent.

You have also still failed to make a case for the thesis that I am making an assumption about this particular case. Even if we grant that spectacles do not have to change intentions in all cases, that does not mean that this is not the kind of case where becoming a spectacle does necessarily effect one’s intentions. Your prior statement doesn’t change anything, nor can it retroactively make an argued-for claim of mine an assumption.

So again: this particular case is one in which a person cannot reasonably maintain pure intentions after the act has become a spectacle. Tebow has plenty of ways of praying on the field that do not draw attention to the fact. That he does not make use of them shows that he is either foolish or doing it for the attention (or both—I haven’t forgotten his Super Bowl commercial stunt).

@SavoirFaire: Doesn’t simply dismissing my previous example because you disagree with Rick Warrens views make you a bigot too? Should I simply cast you a bigot and disregard all of your comments? No, because you entirely missed my point. I never stated he was a pure person, I stated his intentions were pure and his actions are absolutely representative of pure intentions.

Secondly, it’s not my ability to judge people’s intentions that keeps me alive on the highway it’s everyone’s own personal intention to follow the rules of the highway, not my ability to judge them. There could be some maniac on the way home who plans to run every red light in town….Guess what…I won’t be able to judge his intentions and boom someone’s going to die. Even if I could somehow get out of the way I have no idea why he’s running every red light. I could assume he is drunk, high, talking on the phone, shaving, yelling at his kids, a freaking maniac. I could assume his intentions were to not run the red light but he made a mistake. You have no idea what his intentions are and he could have the purest of intentions and still kill somebody. Output is always representative of intention. Additionally, the reason there are rules to the road is because we can’t judge other peoples intentions. If we could there would be no need for stop signs or red lights or yellow lines or seat belts.

Thirdly, the Bible doesn’t condemn people for praying in public. It condemns hypocritical people who only pray in public so that people think they are religious. Even if he is praying on the field in an attempt to get every single camera in the stadium on him. Is there a problem with that? What if he’s not doing it for himself but rather making an attempt to spread the word of Jesus Christ? Is that a bad thing? If God is really up there, do you really think he believes that is a bad thing? So still I disagree with you. A person can maintain pure intentions after his actions have become a spectacle.

@SavoirFaire; Just to set the record straight, I think Rick Warren in in a personal evolution in his life. I don’t think he’s an incredible bigot. I think he is still growing and learning. I think he really wants to do what’s right. I have a feeling his homophobic traits (although less than most evangelicals I believe) will subside as he continues to grow. No one is absolutely good or absolutely bad, but I have listened to enough of Rick Warren’s sermons (I used to live in OC where his church is) to know that if he can reconcile it with God, he will grow out of that stage. You can’t discount EVERYTHING he says and does because of one flaw. There are a lot of people throughout history that had great character flaws but changed the world for the better.

@critter1982 First, I suggest you actually read what I wrote instead of responding in a purely rhetorical manner. It might get you GA’s, but it’s not very compelling argumentatively. If you read carefully, you’ll see that I did not dismiss your example. I noted that I hardly find Rick Warren to be a useful example for making your point and then pointed out why the example is a non sequitur regardless. The two parts of that response are independent, and thus your response makes no sense given what was actually argued.

Second, your example is ultimately self-defeating. Your own argument holds that the mind is an ineffable mystery. It must if it is to be internally consistent at all. Yet you are now saying you can judge Rick Warren’s intentions from his actions, but that I cannot judge Tim Tebow’s intentions from his actions. Your own example acts as a reductio of the argument you have been giving, making it quite irrelevant whether or not we agree about the specifics of the example.

Third, it seems highly unlikely that I have any basic cognitive abilities that you lack. Since I know I can determine people’s intentions from their behavior—not perfectly, as I have already acknowledged, but reliably and usefully—I am confident you can as well. You claim that you are only alive because of the rules of the road, yet I sincerely doubt that everyone you’ve ever driven alongside has followed the rules of the road (especially not perfectly). Thus at some point or another, you have had to rely on something other than everyone being an obedient driver.

Assuming you have a relatively normal human psychology, part of this will have been the ability to reliably guess what people were going to do based on what they already were doing. Your navigation of familiar areas is aided by your memory regarding the conventions that people follow in those places, while your navigation of unfamiliar areas is aided by the way in which your body heightens your awareness to small changes. This is basic human psychology, and I submit that it is quite helpful to our survival.

Finally, you’ll note that I have not rested any part of my argument on the contention that the Bible condemns praying in public. As such, that part of your response is again a non sequitur. My argument has been about something entirely different, so I will thank you not to lump me in with anyone else on the thread and will again request that you respond to what I’ve actually said rather than what it would be convenient if I had said.

Remember that I have been discussing what a person can reasonably intend. That was the point of the AK-47 example. It makes the point that you were denying: external circumstances can affect what one may reasonably intend. Moreover, I deny that it is disanalogous. Tebow’s actions clearly affect people other than himself. If there “purely personal” as you claim, we wouldn’t be discussing them here (that being a non-personal effect). Furthermore, he has to have seen that the discussion of his public prayers is all about him and not about Him. That given, he cannot reasonably intend for the spectacle to be turned to God’s work. Even if he once had the intentions you consider, then, it could no longer be reasonable to intend such a thing.

@Judi I was not discounting anything he says, let alone everything he says. Nor was I saying that he is absolutely bad for having a bad trait. I was merely pointing out that he doesn’t make for a good example in a conversation like this. It was a methodological point more than anything else. Regardless, I will take your word for his personal evolution and retract the present tense for my claim. My experiences with him and the experiences of others I know have been rather negative, but they are also in the past. I hope you are quite correct about who he is now and who he might become. Thank you for setting me straight on the matter.

@SavoirFaire: My rhetorical response was to put in light what you dismissed as a bigot, you yourself were doing. I’m pretty sure I am allowed to discuss things in any manner I prefer. You made the statement, “If that’s supposed to be your example of a pure person, then your argument is more suspect than ever.” This in my mind is you dismissing my supporting evidence based on your judgment of somebody’s character. If it in fact is not then I digress. However for the same reason you then dismissed my example, “it is not a spectacle”, then I suppose I can dismiss yours as well since it was in fact fictional and not at all a spectacle. However IMO either way, we were discussing intentions which can change based on some significant event, whether that be a spectacle, a best seller, or murder. Not sure that really matters.

Secondly my example is not self-defeating. Rick Warren’s reaction to his best seller is directly linked to the intention I was referencing (ie Rick Warren is not a money grubbing old fool but rather truly interested in helping his readers). His reaction to the book being a best seller was to not use any proceedings for himself but to give back to the community. They are directly linked. Your argument is that Tebow prays on the field, ESPN has forced it into a spectacle, Tebow must have non-pure intentions. I see no direct link to how you can be 100% sure Tebow is in it for himself.

Thirdly, I make assumptions everyday that everyone will be an obedient driver. Sure I don’t disagree that we have some ability to guess what peoples intentions are based on their actions and reactions, but you’re argument that you can 100% tell what somebody’s intention is, is just not possible. In fact I would actually argue that we can’t reliably tell what anyones intention is on the road because there are just too many facets. Sure we have some level of foresight to their future actions based on their past actions, but actions are not always representative of intentions. In fact I would go as far as saying that most accidents occur because actions are not clearly tied to intentions. Hence the rules of the road. If we were able to reliably guess what everyone’s intentions were, and then their actions always came from that, we wouldn’t need them.

I never lumped you in with everyone else. You’re argument was that Tebow’s on the field prayer ritual has become a spectacle and that is the problem. You made the statement, “So while I agree that praying in pubic is not strictly contrary to scripture, it seems clear that allowing your prayer to become a spectacle—as opposed to merely something you do with other believers—is to go against the teachings”. So at some level you believe that people shouldn’t be praying in public, at least at the point where it becomes a spectacle?

Lastly, I never denied that external circumstances won’t affect somebody’s future intentions. I simply argued that external circumstances don’t “always” change future intentions. I also argued that you, not being Tebow, have no ability to 100% accurately know what his intentions are, and for you to make a statement like you do, is merely an assumption. Maybe an educated assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. Also I’m pretty sure the reason it is a spectacle is because God is involved. What if instead of his prayer ritual he was doing something that isn’t related to prayer and God, like some goofy handshake with his center. I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t become a spectacle. So you see the only reason it’s a spectacle is because of Him. Sure people may be talking about Tebow, but in the back of everyone’s mind is God and as we all know any marketing positive or negative, direct or indirect is a good thing. So just because everyone is talking about Tebow’s actions doesn’t make it all about him. For example this thread. No longer much about God, but I recall reading scripture above and discussing whether or not public prayer is against the bible. Clearly that is not about Tebow, but obviously discussed in this thread because of him.

@critter1982 You are allowed to respond any way you like, of course, and I never said otherwise. I made a suggestion, one based on the assumption that you are trying to make an argument rather than merely spout flashy nonsense. If I am incorrect about this assumption, please let me know. And yes, you do digress; but no, you cannot dismiss my example on the same grounds because it was given with regard to a different point. It seems you are having trouble following the dialectic and seeing which points respond to which arguments.

This relates to your second point and why you do not realize in what way it is self-defeating. For one, my argument is nothing at all like you present it, nor is my conclusion that we can be 100% Tebow is in it for himself. Indeed, I have not said one word about what Tebow is in it for, and I do not see being in it for himself as the only possible way of having impure intentions. If you don’t even know what I’m arguing for, I suppose I should be unsurprised that none of your arguments really meet their targets.

Regardless, my point about your example being self-defeating was that it forces you to admit that we can read people’s intentions off of their behavior—a claim you were previously resisting. If you are now willing to concede this, fine. That means we can move on from the “you can’t know what other people are thinking” view.

With regard to your third point, I take it as obvious—given my explicit statements to the contrary—that I have not argued we can “100% tell what somebody’s intention is.” This is a pure straw man argument, and thus fallacious. The driving example was given solely for the purpose of showing that the claim that we cannot ever know someone else’s intentions is false. It is one piece of a larger argument.

With regard to your fourth point, you did indeed lump me in with everyone else by acting as if I was making the same argument as others. I am not. Even the statement you quoted is substantively different from anything that would have made your previous comment relevant. Thus it was a non sequitur, just as I claimed. Regardless, we’ve come very far from the point I was making back when we were discussing Thessalonians. Then I was suggesting that praying in public is allowable, but only praying in a way like the Pharisees. I do not think intentions have anything to do with that badness. The spectacle in that case is bad because it—even if done for pure reasons—it undermines its supposed cause. It turns people away from God.

And indeed, that is part of what I think is problematic about Tebow’s current actions—and why I’ve rested my case not on what his actual intentions might be, but what he could reasonably intend in the circumstances. His highly visible prayers, just like his Bible passage inscribed eye black, make him look a particular way—pharisaical, and foolish—regardless of what he may actually be thinking.

And despite what you say, overly elaborate end zone dances are similar, and many people have reacted to them negatively in the past as well. The reason this gets more attention is because many feel it is not just arrogant, but also hypocritical. Personally, I disagree that negative advertising is a good thing. If this is how you market your religion, you’ll just drive people like me further and further away.

@critter1982 I also think you might be overestimating how critical of Tebow I’m being. I take myself to be making a rather mild criticism, which is why I started by disagreeing with those making a more serious criticism.