Is God a jerk for letting people suffer?

Suffering has its purpose too. Human beings learn from it.

How limited your view of theology in general must be.

The idea was that we would stay in the Garden of Eden and that we would not suffer but it didn’t work out.

With or without a god, we’re still not a perfect species and a utopia is pretty much impossible, anyway.

Not only is he a jerk but he’s also dirty mothereffin SOB.

The God I worship is not a jerk. The God I worship gives me tests in order to refine me, to help me learn, prepare me for the next world, and to bring me closer to Him.

”O Thou Whose tests are a healing medicine to such as are nigh unto Thee…” Bahá’u’lláh

I saw a quote the other day.
“I wanted to ask God why he didn’t do anything about hunger,homelessness and suffering, but I was afraid he would ask ME the same question. ”

@flutherother : You are presupposing a Judeo-Christian god in @Charles question. If that is what he meant, I wish he would specify, otherwise, it’s just way too general a supposition when one considers how many different types and levels of theism there are.

If there is a God, I am pretty pissed He allows the suffering that happens in life. Some people say we need suffering to appreciate the good times and to grow. But, my grandmother suffering at the end of her life had absolutely zero purpose in my opinion. She did not learn from it and use her new knowledge for the future, she eventually died while suffering.

I have learned from my suffering, but if I could give all the suffering back, I would in a flat second.

I believe life is somewhat random, we have some control, and decisions we make do effect outcomes, but good people have bad things happen to them, which can cause great suffering. I hate it. It is one reason I don’t believe in God, I don’t believe a God would create a life for people with so much suffering.

Suffering has its purpose too. Human beings learn from it.

If there’s a (good) god, then suffering wouldn’t be a requirement to learn.

I like to go semi-Epicurus:
Is God willing to prevent suffering, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then why is there suffering?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

All of this works on the premise that god should be benevolent. Why?

This question is the basis for an entire branch of philosophical/theological debate called “theodicy”. If you’re curious about the perspectives of some of the great thinkers over the ages, take a look at this article.

@JilltheTooth It would seem odd to want to follow the word of an entity, God, parent, instructor, name it, who did not have kind and good intentions.

@JLeslie : My personal faith is not based on an anthropomorphic avuncular or grandmotherly concept of god. I don’t feel that god is benevolent by human definition, but that does not mean that I feel that god is malevolent. I’m not electing a class president, here, it’s a little more complex than that.

The God I worship is not a jerk. The God I worship gives me tests in order to refine me, to help me learn, prepare me for the next world, and to bring me closer to Him.

Illogical.

“I was afraid he would ask ME the same question. ”

I’d be afraid of a monster like that too.

All of this works on the premise that god should be benevolent. Why?

Because only a fool would worship a god that wasn’t so.

Personally, I think the God of the Bible is a narcissistic asshole. But, I don’t believe in any god(s), including that one, so it doesn’t really matter.

@JilltheTooth I agree in that I am not saying God is Malevonent, and I don’t think God has to be one or the other. I understand that many people who believe in God feel it is very complex, and that there is sort of a method to God’s madness so to speak. I use madness lightly, I am not accusing God of being crazy, just only saying we might not be able to understand all that God wants for us.

Oh, @Charles , what a simplistic assholey attitude you have.
Following my own advice now, and leaving. I always come to these things, and I always regret it.

@ANef_is_Enuf Not to mention his convoluted methods: I think I’m going to impregnate a woman to birth myself, then kill myself, so people will realize the sacrifice I made for them.

Suffering happens.
That’s all.
It happens in every life forms life, whether you are a bug, a squirrel or a human.
“God” has nothing to do with it.

We are organisms and all organisms come and go, experience times of joy and times of unhappiness, sickness, disaster.
The difference between animals and humans is ego.
It is our egos, not “God” that causes most of our suffering in the stories we tell ourselves about how bad/wrong/unfair a situation is.
This is the major difference that separates those that have resiliency from those that are too emotionally fragile and egocentric to accept that yes, much of what happens in life is random, and nobody escapes some measure of hardship, whether it is death, divorce, loss of a loved one, a pet, a job.

I like the saying of instead of asking “why me?” ask, “why not me?”

When a birds nest is pillaged by a predator she doesn’t sit around depressed moaning about how bad/wrong/unfair it is, wallowing in misery that is in large part of her own creation. She collects more twigs, rebuilds her nest, and moves on without all the ego drama.

Humans can learn a lot from animals. ;-)

@Blackberry That is the Christian God. There are other Gods.

@JLeslie that’s the one I was talking about, specifically.

@ANef_is_Enuf the OP didn’t specify, so I was not sure what the OP was exactly looking for. I tend to answer with the Christian God in mind also, or at least the God of the Abrahamic religions. I think since we live in America that is where our mind easily goes.

@JLeslie I agree, but, I specified in my answer… which (I think) is what @Blackberry was responding to. :)

@ANef_is_Enuf Oh oh, now I see. My mistake. Thanks.

@Charles just because you think that @SuperMouse‘s belief is illogical doesn’t mean that she does or even should.

No.

Just to be clear, when I say I don’t like to believe in a God who could allow suffering, I don’t mean people who do believe are wrong. I just think we have different beliefs, and different ways of defining how we see God or how/what God is/should be.

Suffering is a part of this world.

Oh gawd, I just came across this: Rick Santorum on opposition to abortion in cases of rape: Make the best out of a bad situation.

So, I guess rapists are really angels doing the lord’s good work, then?

There is no God.
Suffering, while shitty, is an occasional consequence of living, and is thus always possible in the realm of the living. It may actually be statistically normal.
People who believe that God is watching, or who believe that occasional suffering is an abberation are victims a blurring between boundaries of what is real, and what they dream about.
No offense intended, even though I know some will be taken, but that is the way it is.

People who believe that God is watching, or who believe that occasional suffering is an abberation are victims a blurring between boundaries of what is real, and what they dream about.

It’s a delusion which is a mental illness. If one person believes in an imaginary being it is called insanity; if millions do, it is called religion.

@Charles color me surprised that a Fluther atheist is calling me illogical~ This isn’t my first time at this rodeo. I’m used to Fluther’s non-believers bad mouthing me because I believe in God and attempting to put my faith in their neat little boxes so they can try to deny it on my behalf. I not only disagree with your premise, I believe it is inappropriate for you to try so hard to impose your bitterness and lack of belief on others.

Honestly, my dear friend @JilltheTooth put my feelings about this beautifully: “My personal faith is not based on an anthropomorphic avuncular or grandmotherly concept of god. I don’t feel that god is benevolent by human definition, but that does not mean that I feel that god is malevolent. I’m not electing a class president, here, it’s a little more complex than that.”

I can say without reservation that I believe in God. I do not believe God is a jerk. I believe suffering is a necessary part of life and preventing suffering is tantamount to preventing learning. Would I want all of the challenges removed from my path? No, because the reality is that without the challenges I have faced I would not be the person I am today. I have had this discussion with my husband many times. My husband, who hasn’t walked or even moved his fingers for 21 years knows without hesitation that, were he given the chance, he would never go back and prevent the car accident that nearly killed him for if he had he would not be where he is today. Take away that accident and his disability, and you take away all that it has taught him.

I also want to point out that, in my opinion, the God of the Bible is not my god. The Bible was written by men, not by God. Even if at one time it was the word of God, it has been destroyed and adulterated by man so heinously over the years, that it is no longer the true word of God.

I wonder what this guy’s lesson is.
Yeah, I think suffering sucks. I think that the hard times in life make us appreciate the good times, and I think that there are plenty of situations that we can learn from. However, seeing a god behind that kind of suffering? I find that extremely hard to understand.

This question has been asked so many times that there is no number in our number system to describe just how many times it has been asked. (being facetious of course)

Obviously the OP knows this as they already put an unreasonable restriction on the conversation (referring to the “independent of the free will discussion” thing).

The question is flawed from jump street.. making any attempt to answer it admirable.. but ultimately fruitless.

Good luck everyone.

@ANef_is_Enuf that ploy is right up there with the “would you be disappointed if you saw Hitler in heaven” discussion. It seems to me that the people who are so keen to call God out for suffering and use that as an excuse not to believe, are the ones who insist on, again as @JilltheTooth describes, “anthropomorphizing God.”

God, suffering, and faith are much more complex than non-believers want to make it. We are human, we are not meant to understand everything. Do I see God “behind suffering”? Not necessarily. I seem man and greed behind suffering such as that in the photo you linked. However, I do not see God as vengeful and angry because he does not prevent that suffering. I see it as something I will never be able to explain or understand during my time in this reality. In the face of that I still chose to have faith in a power greater than myself.

**The mouse has left the building.

I don’t think atheists or agnostics actually believe there is a god that is just lazy. The “atheists hating god they don’t believe in” just seemed like a response to too much sarcasm and religion bashing by atheists.

It only comes to evidence or lack of it, the rest is just anecdotal observations that we use to point out the hypocrisy in religion and religious people i.e. that child starved and died because god was busy helping Tim Tebow.

But, like I said before, I don’t think there’s anyone that disingenuous on Fluther.

@Blackberry for the life of me I cannot figure out why it seems so important for atheists to convince me that I am stupid, ignorant, or illogical to believe in God. If all it comes down to is evidence or lack thereof, why is there so much passion directed toward making those who don’t believe feel inferior? I just don’t get it. Unless these people feel active hatred for this God they deny, why would they care at all whether or not I believe? Please note: there is a difference between people of faith who use their faith as an excuse to hurt or marginalize others. People of faith who attempt to use their faith to control or hurt people need to be called out for this behavior and hopefully enlightened about what walking a spiritual path truly entails.

**Ok, the mouse sneaked back in.

@SuperMouse how are those two things even comparable? My not understanding how someone can say that God wants us to learn from suffering, but that concept no longer applies when someone’s suffering is too immense is comparable to asking you if you’d be disappointed to see Hitler in heaven?
You can assume that I’m picking a fight or being snarky, but I’m dead serious. I don’t understand that. If my questioning that makes you feel like I’m attacking you, well then I’m sorry, but I don’t know of a nicer way to ask.
And, if I somehow implied that I don’t believe in god(s) because there is suffering in the world, well, then I clearly misrepresented myself. That is not my reason for not believing, but I do sincerely wonder how people who do believe explain or justify that. I don’t see “God as vengeful and angry,” from that image, either. I think that if there is really an all loving, omnipotent, omniscient, wonderful God capable of doing something about that and just doesn’t then he is just apathetic and cruel. If there is a lesson to be learned from the suffering and death of countless innocent people since the beginning of time, then I sure wish that God would step up and point us in the right direction.
I don’t care what you believe. I’m not trying to change your mind. My asserting my opinions on the subject shouldn’t affect you, and you shouldn’t feel that it does. This is a religious discussion.

@SuperMouse I think some people have a hard time directing their anger or passion in the right direction. Some seem like they hate god, because of some person that did something bad due to the god they believe in.

So if a lot of people do this, it becomes more of a “Your god and religion are stupid” instead of “What you guys are doing due to your belief in god/religion is stupid.”

@ANef_is_Enuf , I can almost see your eyes rolling and feel the exasperation dripping from your fingertips as I read that first sentence. I think the two are comparable as straw man arguments designed to show us theists that our “God” is malevolent, or unjust, or inconsistent and not worth believing in. I can’t explain all the suffering in the world. I don’t pretend to know exactly why that poor child is suffering (or any child suffers for that matter). I can discuss the suffering in my life and in the lives of those around me then explain that rather than seeing it as evidence of a vengeful God, I see it as a chance to learn. I see God as complex and unknowable and not for me to completely understand on this go round.

@SuperMouse I don’t see the eye roll at all. I just think you have a different way of looking at God than @ANef_is_Enuf and I. A different expectation of Him. The suffering just doesn’tmake sense to her, but it makes sense to you. With discussions about God it’s ok for differing opinions, because there is not one absolute answer. Well, at least from my perspective there isn’t a single right answer.

@SuperMouse then you misread my tone. I guarantee that I am not as hostile or full of myself as you seem to imagine.

@JLeslie and @ANef_is_Enuf you’ll have to forgive my cynicism, though as a theist on Fluther I come by it honestly.

@SuperMouse How can we atheists say it better? How can we coixe our opinions about God without theists getting offended or feeling we are being dismissive of their views? I do unrstand why theists might feel defensive on fluther, but fpr those of us not wanting to put theists on the defensive, but are just stating how we see things from our atheist perspective, how do we convey our beliefs and opinions without it seeming like we are trying to convert a theist, or tell them they are wrong? It seems a lot of the time just disagreeing with a theist means the theist thinks they are under attack.

I can’t speak for other atheists, but I can say this for myself… I’m pretty accustomed to people saying blatantly offensive things about me or my beliefs. I live in the United States, so there is no doubt that I am in the unpopular minority, and I have met plenty of people (online & off) that are more than happy to tell me just what they think of heathens like me. So, perhaps growing a bit of a thick skin about this subject comes with the territory. Again, I can not speak for other atheists, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that rings true for many others, as well.
On the other hand, I can’t imagine it isn’t a very common occurrence that theists, particularly Christians in America, have their beliefs or character verbally attacked based simply on their religious beliefs.
So, I wonder if faced with someone strongly asserting the opposing viewpoint, theists may be more sensitive, having not dealt with it on a comparable scale as your average atheist? And, on the contrary, having been head butted so many times, atheists are undoubtedly prone to coming on a little strong at times. Anti-theists come on strong, period. But, that’s a whole other ballgame.

Just guessing, of course. However, I feel like I’ve talked about this in circles on Fluther more times than I can count, and I am not out to offend anyone. I don’t judge you (general “you”) based on your religion, I judge people as people. I don’t censor myself in religious debates, but it really feels that no matter how nicely I say what I’m trying to say, it is offensive. What I believe is offensive. Period.

I think that the divide goes beyond opposing belief systems. I think that I have spent my entire life surrounded by religion, surrounded by believers and their ideas and influence and rituals. It really doesn’t bother me, how could it? I am almost entirely desensitized from lifetime exposure. But, for someone who is not usually submerged in a culture that is made up mostly of people who believe the complete opposite from you, I think it is just a hard pill to swallow. It’s the exact same thing, I just think that those of us on the other side of the divide have gotten used to hearing it.

But, what do I know?

@ANef_is_Enuf I think Christians do feel under attack. Every time the media talks about the Evangelical vote I think they hear it as being said as an annoyance to the rest of the country, like something we have to deal with like having the flu. I think, but I don’t know for sure, atheists hear we are immoral, untrustworthy, etc. to our faces more often than a theist is told something negative, but the theists, especially Evangelical Christians, have this general sense people are against them, or trying to squash their religious freedom. That’s what I have come to think living in the bible belt, but I might be still misunderstanding their point of view.

@JLeslie oh, I think that some Christians feel under attack.
I don’t think it’s the same. I think that my feelings about prayer in public school, Under God in the pledge, censoring science in education… those are issues that I think are comparable to what Christians express in feeling “attacked.” In the circumstances you describe. There is a tug of war for government, I don’t doubt that.

But, I don’t think that is what gave me the thick skin as an atheist. I think being personally insulted, put down, belittled, scoffed at. I think being told that I am going to Hell, being accused of worshiping the devil, being looked at with shock, fear, disgust, or anger.. simply for admitting my atheism. Those things toughened me up. It’s exposure. I believe that many Christians may feel that they are under attack, especially from a political perspective, but I doubt many have faced a degree of negativity directed at them personally as your average atheist.

Am I making sense? I’m still drinking my coffee, so, I am not sure that I’m making myself clear.

@ANef_is_Enuf Yes, you make sense. I tend to agree with you. For me it goes to an assumption made about me because of my atheism. I try not to assume how someone thinks because they are a theist, I ask them. But, just in the asking they think I am assuming, it’s frustrating. I’m probably not making any sense either. I don’t judge someone’s moral character based on their religious beliefs, including their belief in God, I base it on their actions. All too many Christians, but not most Christians, assume the only place to learn morality is through religious teachings, but I think that only comes from people who grow up in communities that are very homogenous, so they sort of have an us and them, or insider and outsider mentality. They just haven’t had the exposure.

A few months ago my parents were in town and they came with me to the gym. I introduced my dad to a woman who lived in China a few years, because he had just returned from a trip to China. She was there on missionary work. My dad asked her if the Chinese took to Christianity, of her efforts were successful. Her reply included saying, “they are atheists…” with a tone of disgust from my father’s perspective. At best maybe her tone was surprise. What was evident is she doesn’t bother to think she might be speaking to an atheist here in good ol’ Memphis suburbs.

@JLeslie yes, that is exactly what I mean. I try not to make assumptions, either. I judge people as people. Religion is a complex thing, people take it very personally and also personalize it…. more or less.
I think that, because I have dealt with being submerged in a culture where the opposing view is very clearly all around me… and also having been attacked on a personal level, I just have a thicker skin.
For someone who hasn’t experienced that, why would they need one?
So, realistically… I may come on a little strong to someone who isn’t accustomed to it, and when the tables are turned, what you really have is the norm. You know?

In my experience, it is not at all unusual for a theist to express something like this: “You don’t believe in god(s)? That’s crazy! How can you believe that?”
However, for an atheist to say something like this:
“You believe in god(s)? That’s irrational! How can you believe that?”

Somehow that second statement is perceived as more offensive. Where, I think my reaction to a theist asking me the first question is more like, “well, let me explain…”
Of course, I’m generalizing here, but I really don’t think it’s far fetched for a large number of people.

@ANef_is_Enuf I think also for me, since I belong to a religion that is willing to include everything from ultra orthodox to atheists as still being Jewish, I was raised knowing and accepting people come with many different beliefs, but we are all one. I kind of generalize that to the population at large, including other religions and lack of. Where I think Christianity tends to wonder more which sect is more right.

@ANef_is_Enuf I don’t feel as though you feeling attacked by Christians is any reason to jump on here and tell everyone they are wrong for believing differently than you do. I have spent the last couple of minutes looking for Jude’s thread where, pretty early on, you call believers ignorant (or something along those lines – I couldn’t find the actual post), without anyone having said anything remotely judging your lack of belief. I am no longer buying this noise about how atheists can’t share their opinions without sounding offensive to theists. In this very thread @Blackberry seems capable of doing exactly that.

I am starting to feel like a broken record, but I will say it again: I am not Christian, evangelical or otherwise. I believe science and religion are in agreement. I do not try to shove my beliefs down anyone’s throat. I have no issue with homosexuality, your non-belief, or any of the other things theists are often accused of having issues with. Stop lumping me in with those people. I make no assumptions about anyone because of what they believe or don’t believe. I judge people by their behavior. I have never, not in a single one of these threads, no matter how contentious they become accused any atheist of being immoral because they do not believe in God. If you are interested in discussing different perspectives on whether or not there is a God I’m in. If you are interested in bashing me because I believe in God and you have decided that means I am stupid, illogical, arrogant, or whatever, I am not interested.

@SuperMouse But, do you agree many Christians do think science and religion have a conflict, and many do have issues with homosexuality, and the other things you mentioned. I know you to be very accepting and open generally, so I don’t understand why you might get offended when we are generalizing about Christians and theists who are not like you, who are closed minded and possibly ignorant to the many different beliefs in our country and around the world. When someone says the orthodox Jews are nuts, they won’t even push a button in an elevator on the Sabath and inconvenience everyone, I don’t feel like they are offending me as a Jew, I think the orthodox are ridiculous about that also, especially in a hospital.

No one bashed you.
Not a single one of those comments were even directed at you.
Nor, did I try to imply that all believers act the same way.
Didn’t call you stupid, arrogant, or illogical.
Didn’t even say that you are Christian.
Didn’t call you ignorant in the first thread, which I can’t find, either. I do, however, recall explaining that I was talking about an idea and not people, which are two different things, in my opinion. And I’m fairly sure I didn’t say “ignorant,” but it might have been crazy or nonsense.

I don’t know why you take what I say so personally.

@JLeslie I get offended because it is always generalized to include theists of all stripes. Have you actually read any of the thread discussing religion here on Fluther?

@ANef_is_Enuf when a comment is in direct response to something I have written of course it is to be considered a commentary on that quip and by extension, the person who wrote it. Stop putting down people who believe in God and your opinions will stop being so horribly misunderstood. It is not ok to write quips judging what I believe then try to call me out for taking it personally.

@SuperMouse From my perspective fluther seems to be most critical of Christians who want everything their way, not theists in general. But, I do agree there are jellies who come down hard on theists.

According to the spiritualist teachings of Silver Birch we are not here to have a dream run but to receive a learning experience. Our subconscious mind is highly filtered from our conscious mind while alive which forces our experiences on earth to be limited through our few physical senses. Apparantely it takes some degree of suffering and challenges that we could never get in the spirit world to enlighten our souls. In order for good to prevail it needs to be formulated from what we may consider evil, which is really the negation of unconditional love. Everybody is here for different reasons and challenges that relate to their individual spiritual conditions and even I don’t understand alot of this. There is a spiritual link on my profile page which explains this better than I can.

@Charles As a philosopher and a logician, I would like to suggest that “illogical” is not a dialectically effective answer. Either explain why something is illogical, giving us an argument to work with, or leave it alone.

@SuperMouse Generalities are a tricky subject. Sometimes they are used to mean “all,” other times they are used to mean “most.” They can even mean “the most relevant set.” A lot of hurt feelings come from assuming the first when all that is meant is the second or the third.